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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:16 PM
Original message
Are comparisons between the U.S. and Nazi Germany valid?
And if so, what precisely are the similarities? What rights have we lost? What rights are we likely to lose? Can you really envision death camps in this country?

I'm not suggesting that the fear of fascism isn't rational, but I do think the comparisons are overblown. The U.S isn't Wiemar Germany. We have a different tradition and a different history. We've been through dark times before, such as the interment of Japanese Americans, the oppression of African Americans and the shameful treatment of Native Americans.

Progress sometimes falters as it's faltering now, and we need to remain vigilant, to fight encroachments on our liberties, but until I see serious attempts to bring back HUAC , attempts to inter Arab Americans or other groups, or bills suggesting the banning of groups such as the ACLU, I remain hopeful that the pendulum will swing and progress will be renewed in the areas in which they're being weakened.

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elperromagico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well - hmm - the German voters never actually gave Hitler a majority.
They were smarter than that, you see...
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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Sorry, but: they did.
The difference may be: many Germans at that time were not aware of the consequences. And when they finally noticed, they were too afraid, and not used to fight, because they were not used to democracy.
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elperromagico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. They gave the Nazi Party more seats in the Reichtag.
I don't believe the Nazi Party had a majority in that body, though. I could be wrong.
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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Hitler was elected.
The laws of the constitution of Weimar had normally restricted his power. But then, his Nazis forced the Reichstag to agree to to changes (Ermächtigungsgesetze), that gave him infinite power.
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elperromagico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Are you sure about that? I thought Hitler was appointed.
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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I am sure. I am German.
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:01 PM by OldEurope
:toast:
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Winamericaback Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Here you go:
Myth: Democracy elected Hitler to power.

Fact: Hitler used backroom deals, not votes, to come to power.



Summary

Hitler never had more than 37 percent of the popular vote in the honest elections that occurred before he became Chancellor. And the opposition among the 63 percent against him was generally quite strong. Hitler therefore would have never seen the light of day had the German Republic been truly democratic. Unfortunately, its otherwise sound constitution contained a few fatal flaws. The German leaders also had a weak devotion to democracy, and some were actively plotting to overthrow it. Hitler furthermore enjoyed an almost unbroken string of luck in coming to power. He benefited greatly from the Great Depression, the half-senility of the president, the incompetence of his opposition, and the appearance of an unnecessary backroom deal just as the Nazis were starting to lose popular appeal and votes.



Argument

Critics of democracy often claim that Hitler was democratically elected to power. This is untrue. Hitler never had the popular votes to become Chancellor of Germany, and the only reason he got the job was because the German leaders entered into a series of back-room deals. Some claim that Hitler's rise was nonetheless legal under the German system. The problem is that what was "legal" under the German system would not be considered legal under a truer and better-working democracy. In a democracy along the lines of the United States or Great Britain, Hitler could have never risen to power.

<snip>

More at: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm
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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. reply
I did not say, he was elected democratically!
I said, he was elected.
The Weimar democracy had some deficiencies, and the Germans had no experiences with democracy, and they had no clues of what propaganda can do.
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Winamericaback Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. I wasn't
replying to you.

I think he was elected, well I KNOW he was elected the first time.

CALM :)
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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. It´s difficult to calm down at this for us.
How hate to be German. Sometimes.
:toast:
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ReneB Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
97. solltest du nicht
obwohl es verstaendlich ist irgendwie..
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
58. Winamericaback, that was very informative. (n/t).
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
96. Correct
Hitler was not elected to Chancellor. Not by the people.
Here are the results of the last election before Hitler was appointed and then seized power.

RUNOFF ELECTION
APRIL 1932
Hindenburg
53.0%

Hitler
36.8%

Thaelman
10.2%

63% did not cast their vote for Hitler.

In the later Reichstag elections in 1932, the Nazi's lost an additional 2 million votes ending up at 33%.
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. And then the Reichstag fire
was his 9/11 and he took the 'necessary steps' to fight terror. (Sound familiar at all)

My mother-in-law, who lived through that time (and was a teen-ager, not a small child) in Holland has been frightened for us for 4 years now. She says she sees it happening all over again. Including the invasion of another country for spurious reasons. (Hitler invaded Poland because he said that Polish cavalry had attacked German troops.)



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OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I hate to say this:
What your mother-in-law thinks, is exactly what I thought.
My only hope is, that there are enough educated Americans to prevent that the US go on that way...
:scared:
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. So far, in the early stages, there are sickeningly similar parallels.
Look back at German history in the early 1930's, mainly the propaganda and you will see similarities.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. You're currently making the wrong comparisons
The comparisons aren't between the genocide practiced by the Nazis at the height of the power and our current government. The comparisons are meant to highlight the gradual slide into fascism and power consolidation that happened at the beginning of their rise to power. The end result of the Nazis' reign should make us all the more horrified at the similarities of how they began their rise to power and what's currently going on in this country.
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yes
you are so right. Maybe we need to look at fascist parallels in nations - like, say, Spain under Franco - that did not exterminate quite so many people.

Iraq = Guernica - God, you could put the painting right next to Fallujah.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
61. If you had bothered
to read my message, you would have known that I was indeed making the comparison to the early Nazi state and not to Nazi Germany at the height of it's powers. Nor did I say that all comparisons are completely unfounded, but that they're overblown. I stated that when I saw serious consideration of resurrecting Huac, of interring citizens based on ideology or race, etc, that then I could see the slide into a nazi like state.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, they first came for Padilla and Hamdi
did yuio speak for them? If you did not, will you speak for the gays? How bout the trade unoonist, the liberals?

When yuo don't and they come for you, nobody will be left to speak for you.

The similarities are striking to anybody who knows history

Oh and get your hands on the US patriot Act and the 1933 bill after the reighstag fire... it is scary (there are also similarities to teh Alien and Sedition act, but that is another story), Now Patruot II is even scarier.

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one_true_leroy Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. That's what is scariest...
the mass of Germans in the 20s and 30s (like the Italians) weren't looking ahead to the Holocaust and WWII, they were looking at the ultrs-patriotism and nationalism being spoonfed them by the German media and propaganda apparata. I think the same is true of Americans. I don't imagine or envision anything as terrible as a Holocaust here, but I'm sure there were Germans who said the same. I can imagine, though, alienation, disenfranchisement, and segregation, and the ilk of Coutler and Malkin (Bluebear, you've seared a terrible image in my mind) would be perfectly fine locking up dissenter for the safety of the country. When the media is as tightly controled (minus the internet and some glowing other exceptions), it is easy to make palatable what one finds distasteful. I think the media has played a powerful role in the liberalization of the US in the past 50 years, but is noe being used as a powerful force to revert to a 'traditionalist' society. And traditionally, Americans, for all their kindness, have been exclusionary, especially in the echelons of government and law enforcement.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. First of all, I do know a modest amount of history.
I have a Masters in history with a concentration on Millennial Studies, and my thesis involved the use of millenarianism in nazi ideology. I've read a fair amount about the rise of nazi Germany. Second of all, I actually have read most of the Patriot Act, annotated from the ACLU website. It is a scary document.

One can always find similarities between two empires- any two empires. I didn't deny that. I said, and I maintain, that the comparisons are overblown. I listed those possible events that really would scare me.

You said: The similarities are striking to anybody who knows history

Well, they're a heck of a lot of historians who would be to differ.

And no, I didn't speak up for Padilla and Hamdi, but organizations to which I donate, did.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. What a silly question.
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 03:23 PM by K-W
You can compare anything. The validity of the comparison relates to the specific comparison. Of course you can compare the US and Nazi Germany. It depends on whether the specifics of your comparison are valid.

Trying to judge the validity of any and all comparisons between two things is a fools errend.

"Progress sometimes falters"
Correction: Progress always falters.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Does it matter where silliness flows from?
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:53 PM by K-W
The question in your topic was silly, and you have no legitimate gripe with my saying it.

And then you critisize me because Im not going to take orders from as far as what I do or do not post in an open discussion?

You asked a silly question, I pointed that out. I didnt comment on the rest of your post in that post, because I didnt want to. If you dont like discussions, dont post on discussion boards. And if you didnt want my opinion on the question in your topic, you shoudnt have put it in your topic.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
86. Oh for pity's sake.
I haven't attempted to order you to do anything, nor have I suggested that you don't have the right to post anything you want in response to my post. You can metaphorically stamp your foot from now to eternity as far as I'm concerned. Please note, however that I haven't conceded that my initial message was silly. Quotation marks around a word can be used to denote fallacious use of said word.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think this link might help you - signs of a facist government
http://home.earthlink.net/~eldonenew/fascism.htm

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

4. Supremacy of the Military

5. Rampant Sexism

6. Controlled Mass Media .

7. Obsession with National Security

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected

10. Labor Power is Suppressed --

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

14. Fraudulent Elections

Scary, isn't it?
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Seems to be
14 out of 14! Holy sh*t!!
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Winamericaback Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fascism
Don't confuse Fascism with Nazism

Fascism doesn't call for Death camps, it doesn't even call for mistreatment of citizens that was Hitlers own disgusting addition.

With the passing of the patriot act I see slight similarities between it and what Hitler did when he was first elected.

From Wikopedia:
Seeking to find some principle to compete with and replace the Marxist doctrine of class struggle, Rerum Novarum urged social solidarity between the upper and lower classes, and endorsed nationalism as a way of preserving traditional morality, customs, and folkways. In doing so, Rerum Novarum proposed a kind of corporatism, the organization of political societies along industrial lines that resembled mediaeval guilds. A one-person, one-vote democracy was rejected in favor of representation by interest groups. This idea was to counteract the "subversive nature" of the doctrine of Karl Marx.

The themes and ideas developed in Rerum Novarum can also be found in the ideology of fascism as developed by Mussolini.


Mussolini's fascist state was established nearly a decade before Hitler's rise to power. Both a movement and a historical phenomenon, Italian Fascism was, in many respects, an adverse reaction to both the apparent failure of laissez-faire economics and fear of the Left.

********
It goes on to illustrate many similarities that the reader would have to infer. Yes we have a very different history and the probability of it happening in full force is slim, BUT there are already certain similarities that cannot be ignored. Big industry and govt are starting to merge under Republicans and while that isn't;t Fascism per se it is a step in that direction.

It is only a good thing for people to question their government. If they do not, Nazism and fascism rear their heads without the peoples knowledge.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. Between the potential economic meltdown and the use of fear of terrorism
to clamp down on civil liberties, I think that the more apt comparison is to Argentina and Uruguay.

Saying "Nazi" sounds overblown to the average person, because they do NOT know that Hitler didn't start out sending Jews to concentration camps. "Fascist" is an appropriate term, but "Nazi" is not, because that is the name of a specific fascist political movement.

Unfortunately, even people who lived through the 1970s and 1980s didn't pay attention to Argentina and Uruguay.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Can I really envision death camps in this country?
Unfortunately, yes. We've already had them:

Japanese Internment camps during WWII
Trail of Tears
Slavery
Etc.

Did we burn people alive? Not that I know of (post-Salem witch hunt days), but we certainly have let people starve, freeze to death, or allowed disease to run unchecked.

And with the precedence set by Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, it's not hard for me to imagine at all.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The Japanese Internment Camps were not "Death Camps"
They may have been wrong, but internees were treated well, and were free to come and go.

Japanese were not allowed to live in California and other "quarantine" areas, but were not FORCED to go into the camps.

TO compare them to Dachau and Treblinka is extremely unfair to FDR, who thought at the time it was the best way to protect them from angry Americans, and protect the US from them.

Again, I disagree with the policy, but it was NOT the same as what the Nazis did.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Free to come and go?!
Um yeah, that's why they were all guarded with soldiers carrying machine guns and were surrounded with razor wire.

:wtf:
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Study the history a bit more.
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:03 PM by UdoKier
Good resources:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/main.html

http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=79

"There is a cadre of individuals that term themselves a 'circle of patriots,' that feel that we have some hidden agenda, which sort of baffles us," said Ross Hopkins, superintendent of the Manzanar site. "It's obvious that many of them feel that if we tell the story of Manzanar as it relates to the war-relocation camp with negative connotations, that represents 'America bashing.' We feel to the contrary, that if we tell the story factually and back it up with good research, then people can come to their own conclusions."

'Took away four years'

Japanese Americans interned during the war still describe their experiences in voices choked with emotion.


"It took away four years of my life," said Noel Kobayashi, who was interned as a child. "When I look back at it, they were taking away the basic rights and freedoms of American citizens. That's what was wrong. I would like to believe it would never happen again."

Critics of the Manzanar historic site rely in part on books written about Manzanar and the Japanese-American internment by Southern California author Lillian Baker.

According to the accounts, Japanese Americans were free to come and go from the camp at will, or to leave altogether if they wished. Rather than eight guard towers fitted with searchlights and machine guns that Park Service historians say ringed the camp, revisionists say there were only one or two structures used as fire watchtowers. They also insist that instead of five strands of barbed wire surrounding the camp to keep internees from escaping, there were only a few strands of mostly plain wire to keep out cattle.


There were shootings, poor conditions, and the policy was certainly racist in nature. They were not prison camps, though. There is some debate on whether people were free to come and go, but these were not "death camps".
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. "but it was NOT the same as what the Nazis did."
Not yet. Give them time.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. How Malkin-esque.
While I certainly wont compare them to death camps, it was forced.

Evicting people from thier homes and then offering a refugee camp counts as forcing people into the refugee camp.

And it wasn't done to protect the japanese. It was done because of a mixture of paranoia and racism.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. I think there was paranoia and racism at work, yes.
But there also was a real danger to the Japanese.

And yes, people were forcibly relocated, and some were deported.

I'm not defending the policy (as would Malkin or her even more disgusting Colleague, Adam Yoshida), I'm just saying that it doesn't compare to Nazi Germany.

And I despise Michelle Malkin.

PS - My wife is Japanese as are my kids. I lived in Japan for many years and feel a strong affinity for the country. I'm fluent in the language. In fact I'm a translator. I've been to ground zero at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and fully condemn the A-bombings as an act of terrorism. It's not as though I haven't read anything on the subject or make flip comments about it. There are a lot of misconceptions about the camps. They are a shameful chapter in our history, but not in the Nazi leagues by a long shots.

Germans and Italians were relocated, too, BTW.

Canada also evacuated its Japanese.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. This really bugs me, there is nothing wrong with comparing things.
A comparison is not an equivelence.

Saying that there may be some saliant or interesting comparisons between the two is not to say that they are the same, or even that similar on the whole. Simply that there are some things between the two that can be compared, and that is almost certainly true.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Okay.
fair enough.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
60. I did not say that they were death camps.
My argument was more for the idea of people being rounded up into forced relocation areas.

I do not believe it was done for their own protection. If that was the case, steps would have been taken by the government to secure their property while they were away. This absolutely did not happen.

And it is true that conditions at these camps were not great. Stanford has a first-hand account of the camps posted on their website. The gentleman who wrote the account had been a Standford professor before internment. After internment, he was a broken man. http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/stanfordtoday/ed/9611/9611fea401.shtml

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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Actually, the electric chair buns people to death from the inside
So we have been burning people to death, at least in a couple of states. I know Florida only recently stopped using that method.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
64. I was also going to include this
but figured that at least the chair/capitol punishment is approved of by many in the US. But for me, it's not such a leap from capital punishment to Abu Ghraib to branding dissenters as terrorists.

Indeed, * lackey Karen Hughes already compared pro-choice protesters in DC last April to terrorists because, like terrorists, we "don't value the sanctity of life." :eyes:
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. No witches were burned at Salem
Historical mythology. The only punishment for witchcraft in the New World was hanging. (I did my senior history seminar on witchcraft in early modern Europe and America. Burning was done only on the Continent. Brits and Americans hung their witches.)

That does not, however, invalidate your point. America was built on slavery and genocide. Where do we get the notion that we won't do it again?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. People would rather believe in the myth of riteousness
than actually be right.
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. So my therapist tells me
I simply cannot understand that mindset.

Perhaps if I did, I wouldn't need a therapist. ^_^
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. Thanks for the clarification. n/t
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. How about Imperial Japan?
We don't have the death camps, but we have the leader chosen by God, and an expanding empire based on the lust for raw resources, a sheep-like populace in lockstep, sending its youngest and finest off on futile suicide missions.

All we've yet to do is wake the sleeping giant to smack us back to our senses...
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. No, they're moronic...
...and disrespectful of those who truly did suffer and/or die under Nazi oppression.

Personally, they make me sick!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I have a close friend (Basically family member) who survived the Nazis!
And he's got the blue serial number tatoo to prove it!!

Don't tell me what is, and is not, a red herring.

This bullshit is, at the very BEST, disrespectful of those who died and/or suffered under Nazism.

(As I try to remain cool, and discuss this through clenched teeth!!!!)
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. You are the one being disrespectful.
We should let those people die for nothing because it bugs you when we try to learn from what happened to keep it from ever happening again?

That is respect?
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. The use of Nazi deaths to spread propaganda against our political enemies.
...Is DISGUSTING!

And I have no respect for anyone who would do such a thing!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Nobody is doing that, so back off.
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:29 PM by K-W
You are the one in the wrong here. You are levelling absurd accusations and classifying perfectly moral discussions as amoral because you are afraid to make destinctions.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. You might need some tin foil.
It's not a red herring? How about a straw man? Is that more palatable? Whatever you want. The point is that this discussion in NO WAY disrespects those people that you mention. It is a discussion about the similiarities between this idiotic neo-con take-over of our government and the Nazi takeover of Germany.

Those that do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Perhaps this will help.
Man 1 breaks into a home and steals 20$
Man 2 breaks into a home and murders 20 children.

Comparing the way the two men broke in does not in any way hold up the 20$ and 20 children as being the same.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
83. And have you asked that friend what they think of today's Amerika?
The Uber Nationalism.

The Totalitarian Party-Style Media especially Faux "News".

The creeping assault on Civil Liberties?

The glassy-eyed, reality-disconected groupthink of Trust Der Bushler?

I agree with you that BushPutinist Totalitarianism is nowhere near as violent or evil as the Nazis (yet).

And yet, does that fact invalidate ALL discussion of similarities?

I have a friend who in 2002 went over to Germany to raise investor funds for our company. He was meetin with German CEOs and CFOs, not your average Green Party Types.

They ALL said that Bush reminded them of Hitler.

The similarities ARE there. It is NOT disresepctful to mention that.

Though feel free to compare them to Imperial Rome if that model, which is actually a greater aspect of our New Amerika than the Nazi part, which so far is emulated only in propaganda strategies and the use of demonization speech, makes you feel better.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Why dont you show some REAL respect for the people who died
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:01 PM by K-W
by allowing yourself to learn from what happened to them.
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. We're not comparing Nazis at their height
We're comparing neocons to the Nazis as they were rising in power. This is a perfectly valid thing to do. If you don't learn from history, you must relive it.

I am sure that if the neocons gain sufficient power, they will be willing to do anything that the Nazis were willing to do. The more you study the Nazis, the more you see the similarities. What could be more respectful of the victims' suffering than to point out that if we don't take action now, it will happen again?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
94. Are comparisons between you and an ostrich valid?
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. No Gernany only had weaponry equivalent to Iraq
We have thermonuclear weaponry.
However, we are comparable to the nazis in the following ways.

1. Nazis work camps = commercial prisons with drug laws.
2. Nazi court system = SCOTUS
3. Nazi economic plan = PNAC oil empire
4. Marinus Van Der Lubbe (google it) = John Malvo
5. Joseph Goebbles = Karl Rove
6. Herman Goering = Donald Rumsfeld
7. Final solution = PATRIOT act
8. Halliburton = Krupp
9. Ploesti = Iraqi oil fields
10. Adolph Hitler = Dick Cheney George Bush
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. To quote Kennedy-JFK
In his diary, John F. Kennedy wrote while in Germany 1937:
"Had a talk with the proprietor who is quite a Hitler fan. There is no doubt about it that these dictators are more popular in the country than outside due to their effective propaganda is strongest point." Vanity Fair-Dec 2004


There definately similarities
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. On the subject of death camps, the worst ones were not
in Germany but in countries conquered by Germany, Austria, Poland and Czechoslavakia. Seems like we are following a similar pattern.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. Fascism is fascism.
Your argument eerily reminds me of this one:

"So you are saying George Bush knew the exact time and place of the terrorist attack on 9/11 and willingly let 3000 people die?"
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
30. A short piece from a blog
Quoting it would give the whole thing, so I only post the link:

http://claritas.blogdrive.com/archive/5.html

The highlight is "First they came for the Muslims . . ."
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. You couldn't have asked this question....
...in the existing thread?

Yes...we have a different history and traditions...which have all but disregarded by the Bush* Regime. What's 'traditional' about a secretive government that constantly circumvents the rule of law and Constitution without consequence?

America has never experienced this type of government before...that wages aggressive wars and considers itself above and apart from checks and balances and oversight.
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Link to the existing thread?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Judging from the responses here
a separate thread was justified. And yes I agree with the premise that bushco has little or no regard for the rule of law and the traditions from when they came. I do believe that we greater safeguards than those of the weak and paralytic Wiemar. And I don't agree that we've never seen a prior government that considered itself above the checks and balances- Nixon's imperial presidency stands as a testament to that truth.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
43. Most posts are in comparison to Fascists ( mine included)
Although Nazi's were fascist they took things to a whole new level of depravity. Many use the terms fascist and Nazi interchangeably but they aren't truly identical.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. Just my opinion but,
I think our American fascists are closing the gap towards being out and out Nazis.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Nah, there will never be more Nazi's
That was a particular historical group.

We should seperate the history of the Nazi's with the sociatal phonomenom of facism.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
89. If and when they ever try to take the next step
you can be assured that will signal the line that was crossed and all in out civil war will let loose. It wouldn't shock me if this happened.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
50. Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:17 PM by AmerDem
This list is always worth posting when discussing fascism and how we are as a country at present.


Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
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ilovenicepeople Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
52. Prescott (Grampa)Bush made alot of his money by supporting Hitler
until the government shut him down with the Trading With the Enemy Act (for some strange reason all the proof has been purged from the archives)If you want to find out more about the Nazi connection check out this website (I double dare you) www.infowars.com
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
63. the political tactics used by both people
are very similar. The goals of empire are very similar. The means for achiving this goal are radically different.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
68. I would tend to agree with you.
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:51 PM by hiphopnation23
and would add further that there's a contigent here at DU that if you take a step back and look, really look, at the two sets of circumstances and DON'T come to the conclusion that you will be seperated from your family and forced into a mass oven, then you're somehow a loony moderate whose inviting certain death onto liberals, writ large. To which I say, calm down, back away from the computer, and take a walk.

Of course the comparisons are apt if for no other reason than it is the worst example of the rise of fascist power in recent memory and, if history really does teach us anything, then it should be continually be brought up as a backdrop with which to judge the circumstances of any and all modern-day times. Just as every other occurance in history should be tested against modern-day times as a barromter for going forward. Just as the Roman Empire should be held against what's fast becoming an American Empire. Just as Otto von Bismark's Prussia must be held up against Nazi Germany in order to understand Nazi Germany and in the same way that Nazi Germany compares and contrasts with Bush's America. For example, starting threads with the title "I know what it feels like to be a Jew in pre-1940's Germany" is as myopic as it is ignorant but worst of all serves no real purpose other than starting pointless flamewars.

In short, the comparisons are apt, it's what we do with the information that really counts. (hint: screaming about it on internet chat boards isn't the right start.)

edit: grammar
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. LOL. Thanks for your wise words and
dry humor. Of course, I was responding to the post you mention, and I was trying, however ineptly, to say what you said in your first paragraph.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
69. perhaps if you were black or gay or muslim or iraqi
you might have a different persepctive. i think one of the reasons some vote for bush, inc is that they don't believe it will hurt them...just those "others." unlike the good folks of DU...they think hurting those "others" is just fine.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Oh, please
I don't even have a particular point of view. Although, it's true I have a strong dislike for hyperbole, hysterics and overblown rhetoric. As Yeats said, "the worst are full of passionate intensity, and the best lack all conviction." I know I'm in a very small minority here, but I think there's way too much passionate intensity at DU.

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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. If you dont have a point of view, you need to reanalyze your writing style
Because your post quite clearly argued a position.

Perhaps you should look in a mirror abit before going on a crusade against other DU'rs. You generalized all comparisons between nazi germany and the US as saying that we will have death camps.

That is deceptive, rhetoric, and hyperbole.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. not that there's too much of it
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 04:57 PM by hiphopnation23
just that much of it is misguided. it targets colleagues. i paraphrase a columnist whose name I can't remember when they said "liberals in america are like a huge truck with no one steering."
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. It requires passionate intensity to do historical comparison?
I think comparing the neocons now to the Nazis at their height would be hyperbole, but comparing the neocons now to the Nazis when they were first consolidating their power, no, I don't. The parallels are plain. Sit down with Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It's a simple historical exercise.

Is it hyperbole to warn someone that there may be falling rocks on the road ahead? I would consider it socially irresponsible if the historians among us didn't point out the similarities.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. It's just a tad arrogant of you
to assume that I haven't read " The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich". I've read it more than once. I've also read his "Berlin Diaries", and Reck-Malleczewen's "Diary of Dispair". Not to mention Marc Bloch. Again, I'm not saying that there aren't similarities, merely that one must look carefully at those similarities,
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Let me see if I follow you . . .
It's more arrogant for me to assume that you haven't read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich than for you to imply that I'm being overly emotional for insisting that the comparisons are valid and that one need not be overly emotional to think so.

Yeah. Right.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. you are actually in the minority of posts
comparing this current administration with Nazi Germany. As mentioned already most compare the current administration with a fascist empire or with the very beginnings of the rise of Nazi Germany.

For someone who says they dislike hyperbole you show a great deal of it yourself in many of your posts.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. how can you be so convinced about what other people feel?
if you aren't on the target list? people tend to be passionately intense about issues of importance to them. and i can understand why you might have more faith in the US government and the american people than some on the target list. i can understand why someone tettering on the edge of coming out of the closet might be more afraid to do so right now. i can understand why an iraqi-american who actively opposes this war might feel a little nervous in this country right now also. and african-americans...well let me put it this way" i didn't even realize i was american until i went to another country.
oh please? hypebole? overblown rhetoric? but...you have no particular pov?! hard to believe that.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
77. I highly recommend you read "Friendly Fascism"...
...by Bertrand Gross. However, I appreciate your implied hopefulness. :)

I'm on the wrong computer, but I will post more (via edit) when I can access links to a few (for me) interesting articles on this question. Fascist ends can be achieved via more "modern" means. And I DO think there are huge, dangerous parallels with the Wiemar Republic, including the role of the religious right in enabling this "marriage" of corporate and state. This did not start with Gee Dubya, but it has reached crisis proportions. More later...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. Thank you. I look forward to reading
"Friendly Fascism". I haven't really lent much thought to the role of the religious right vis a vis the marriage of corporate and state. Certainly the role of nazi frankenreligion played a part in such a marriage in Germany.

In turn, let me make a recommendation: Fredrick Rech-Malleczwen's "Diary of a Man in Despair" is an extraordinary book. It documents the rise of the nazi state from the death of Spengler to the author's own death at the hands of the SS in 1945. Few witnesses to history have documented their observations with such insight and prescience. It's remarkable. Although no longer in print in English, it is available through Amazon.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
78. we have a powerful advantage
Never has tyranny been so well documented as the rise of the Nazis in Germany has been.

Massive documentation was left behind by the regime after the collapse, and the best minds of our time have researched, analyzed and written about the rise of the Third Reich. So we are blessed with being able to read an extensive historical record that informs and educates us on every detail of tyranny, and how totalitarianism can arise in a democratic society. The warning signs, the indicators, the trends to watch for, the failures of the opposition - all this and much more has been thoroughly and painstakingly explored, and is available to us in convenient book form and written in our own language, no less. It is a priceless treasure trove.

Putting this to practical use does, however, require us to actually read the the history books that are available. It is painfully clear from many of the posts whenever this subject comes up here, that too many have not exercised this simple and obvious first step to gaining an understanding, let alone forming opinions for public consumption.
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hiphopnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. as per usual, m berst
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 05:28 PM by hiphopnation23
a smelling salt...no no....an amonia...no no...a minty-fresh-evergreen of a post! Your posts are like a clear, refreshing ting of pure crystal here amongst so much mushy, sloppy posting and thinking, mine included, and I thank you.

I am currently in my second reading of the priceless treasure trove to which you refer. It was so mind-numbing and just awe-inspiring that I had to start it all over again to make sure every inch of it was absorbed by my mind.

I beg you DUers...read it! The likenesses are there but incessantly beating each other upside the head over small sticking points will not serve the ultimate goal in understanding the comparisons which is, of course, to not let it repeat itself.


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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. hey hhn
Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Another one to check out - "Last Train from Berlin" by Howard K. Smith. It is a quick and entertaining read and not only gives a feel for what it was like on the street, but Smith makes a powerful case for liberal institutions as an antidote to tyranny.
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
81. Comparing is not equating.
The comparison is fair. No one is saying it is the same.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
84. No

The present fight is not about utter obliteration of the opponent. It's about who constitutes the controllers and elite of the society, and, conversely, who constitutes the subjugated (in reactionary eyes) or obsolete (in progressive eyes) faction.

So the violence is psychological and it's about social status. The fighting is between activists on both sides- they keep clipping each others' wings politically and knocking out the weakest people on each side. The 'common folk' sees its job as keeping score.

I see this as a psychological recapitulation of the Civil War, really, with the activists on each side constituting the common soldiers and the political leaders the generals, and each political cycle (Presidential term) resembling a military cycle (year) of that war in struggle to change the relative power. Our side is the Union- stuck with all the tactical and personnel disadvantages at the beginning and only slowly able to fix them, and in a series of terrible morale problems and inept and bloody losses until the final stretch. But it is the side with a winning moral/political conviction, with the better and wiser people before History than the other, and the resource base. And the fulfillment of the better hopes and desires of the Founders, i.e. the earnest continuation of the effort for a better society and genuine civilization and noble role in the world (even if no one then could pretend that it could be largely achieved in their century). Certainly not the creatural appetite-centered, humanly degraded/degrading, vile design for nihilistic domination and full reengagement in colonialism that the Confederacy represented in all its hypocrisy and selective 'morality' and dreams of Empire.

Yes, the Civil War was not regarded as decided until early/mid March 1865, a month or so before the last major battles were fought. It was considered the conventional wisdom most of the War that the South would very likely outlast the North- drive it into bankrupcy and demoralized military exhaustion- until September or October 1864. Its prevailing was pegged as a roughly 50/50 proposition for another six months, the Northern soldiers being more conflicted- but on the whole, and in time, more optimistic and certain- than Northern civilians about it.

Oh, our political situation at present....analogous to December 1864 is my assessment. More grinding down Republicans lies ahead, their narrow escape in '04 is indeed only a reprieve. And Union soldiers, not convinced of much of anything solid in particular in 1861 or 1862, were increasingly convinced in 1864- sure of it by November 1864 and throughout 1865- that the War was not just a war. In the end stages it was the eradication of a cult, a heresy gone wild, the dismemberment of an abomination in the eyes of God, to them. Even Grant would say of Lee that he didn't consider him a bad person, but profoundly wrong to fight for the worst cause in American history. As for our side's wrongs in the eyes of the opposition...we've just burned down Georgia, metaphorically. Our leaders' planning has South Carolina on the drawing board. Onward we go.


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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
85. Yes, the bush regime is the new American Nazi party. Sure, there are
differences... we don't have ovens yet. But we have guantanamo bay, our very own concentration camp; we've had our Reichstag... with another one pending I imagine.

And let's not forget the PNAC attempt to take over the whole fukcing world... http://www.newamericancentury.org

It's a brave new world.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
91. Of course not. How could you even think such a thing? (sarcasm)
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 08:48 PM by KamaAina
The Nazis didn't have nuclear weapons. :scared:

edit: ting? Is I learning yet?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
93. I know alot of you have seen this before
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering, April 18, 1946, while awaiting the Nuremberg trials.

Sounds exactly like the U.S. to me...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. Good One,,,,,and another:
"...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious."
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister
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PrisonerLazy8 Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
99. No
Not yet.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
100. AB-SO-FRICKIN'-LUTELY
Here's why. Even though wing nuts always try to make Hitler out as a Socialist, he was actually a right-wing authoritarian with a welfare state, and of course there was the whole "race hygiene" thing.

The most important part of fascism -- and all totalitariansim -- isn't the frills, or even the actions, but the rootless base and magical thinking that accompanies it.

For Hitler, it was racial supremacism, for the GOP it's cultural supremacism -- summed up by words like "Heartland" and "Core American Values." These loose-fitting constructs that are really overbroad descriptions of abstract things are part of the propaganda that the GOP uses.

There is also the idea of scapegoating -- which the GOP actively does to the democrats, even inciting violence amongst their rabble. They also accuse the left wing of being intellectual "elitists," when they, themselves, subscribe to a RIGHT-WING intellectual elite that finds its loyalties with the philosopher king of pre-enlightenment and manipulation of the masses to bring that king to power. In addition, the glorification of conservative institutions -- vaulting them so highly over diversity and multiculturalism -- is yet another example of their cultural supremacism.

Their propaganda is to be ADMIRED. It works like this. Typically, to some degree, all of us are reactionaries, from situation to situation. Those who haven't practiced their critical thinking through scholarship or other outlets, are much more likely to have "the totalitarian brain," which "splits" all things into "good" and "bad, "black and white."

When someone thinks this simply it is easy for a skilled propaganda master to simply interject false binaries into the template of the totalitarian brain -- hence the reference to "war is peace," and "black is white" from Orwellian fame.

It seems that the major false binaries that they are producing include:

1. If you question the president or the country, you "hate America."
2. If you're "anti-war" you don't support the troops.

These are false binaries and false dilemmas, which are logical fallacies, which are used in addition to mostly slippery slope, ad hominem and style-over-substance fallacies. They also use the tactic of accusing your opponents of what you're doing, as I outlined above.

The marriage of corporation and government is another key part of fascism, which is DEFINITELY apparent, and is even supported by Democrats in this society, though not usually to the conniving and dishonest extent that the GOP is.

The worst, however, is the "harkening" to another time -- or the appeal to a "rebirth" of America -- re-capturing the golden years of a revisionist and rootless history that they are peddling, most egregiously in the areas of the history of American foreign policy, and the establishment of America, as well as the lineage of our secular, Rousseau-cum-Jeffersonian, Enlightenment history -- which explains their disdain for the "Bill of Rights."

There's much more -- the comparison is DEFINITELY valid.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
101. No parallels????
"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history," he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. "This fire," he said, his voice trembling with emotion, "is the beginning." He used the occasion - "a sign from God," he called it - to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their evil deeds in their religion.

<snip>

Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation's now-popular leader had pushed through legislation - in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it - that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people's homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism.

<snip>

Legislators would later say they hadn't had time to read the bill before voting on it.

Immediately after passage of the anti-terrorism act, his federal police agencies stepped up their program of arresting suspicious persons and holding them without access to lawyers or courts. In the first year only a few hundred were interred, and those who objected were largely ignored by the mainstream press, which was afraid to offend and thus lose access to a leader with such high popularity ratings. Citizens who protested the leader in public - and there were many - quickly found themselves confronting the newly empowered police's batons, gas, and jail cells, or fenced off in protest zones safely out of earshot of the leader's public speeches.

Within the first months after that terrorist attack, at the suggestion of a political advisor, he brought a formerly obscure word into common usage. He wanted to stir a "racial pride" among his countrymen, so, instead of referring to the nation by its name, he began to refer to it as "The Homeland," a phrase publicly promoted in the introduction to a 1934 speech recorded in Leni Riefenstahl's famous propaganda movie "Triumph Of The Will." As hoped, people's hearts swelled with pride, and the beginning of an us-versus-them mentality was sewn. Our land was "the" homeland, citizens thought: all others were simply foreign lands. We are the "true people," he suggested, the only ones worthy of our nation's concern; if bombs fall on others, or human rights are violated in other nations and it makes our lives better, it's of little concern to us.

<snip>

His propaganda minister orchestrated a campaign to ensure the people that he was a deeply religious man and that his motivations were rooted in Christianity. He even proclaimed the need for a revival of the Christian faith across his nation, what he called a "New Christianity."

<snip>

Within a year of the terrorist attack, the nation's leader determined that the various local police and federal agencies around the nation were lacking the clear communication and overall coordinated administration necessary to deal with the terrorist threat facing the nation, particularly those citizens who were of Middle Eastern ancestry and thus probably terrorist and communist sympathizers, and various troublesome "intellectuals" and "liberals."

He proposed a single new national agency to protect the security of the homeland, consolidating the actions of dozens of previously independent police, border, and investigative agencies under a single leader. He appointed one of his most trusted associates to be leader of this new agency, the Central Security Office for the homeland, and gave it a role in the government equal to the other major departments.

His assistant who dealt with the press noted that, since the terrorist attack, "Radio and press are at out disposal." Those voices questioning the legitimacy of their nation's leader, or raising questions about his checkered past, had by now faded from the public's recollection as his central security office began advertising a program encouraging people to phone in tips about suspicious neighbors. This program was so successful that the names of some of the people "denounced" were soon being broadcast on radio stations. Those denounced often included opposition politicians and celebrities who dared speak out - a favorite target of his regime and the media he now controlled through intimidation and ownership by corporate allies.


the above snips are from an esssay by Thom Hartman:
WHEN DEMOCRACY FAILED:
THE WARNINGS OF HISTORY



I encourage you to read the rest of this chilling essay:
http://www.newswithviews.com/history/history4.htm






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