How To Beat The Psych Tests Your Govt. Wants To Give You

There has been a lot of talk on here lately about the coming "psychological exams". I thought I might try to provide a little public service for my fellow DUers and let you know not only that these tests are beatable (yes, you too can fake sanity!) but how to do it (in my opinion).

I am not a clinical psychologist. However, I have worked in the field for some length of time and have seen many many MMPI results and their interpretations, I administer and score "personality" type tests sometimes as a part of my own research, and I have spoken at great length with individuals who administer these tests for a living about what they are designed to test. And this is what I would do if the government wanted to test me for a psychological disorder using an MMPI (or something similar). Take this advice as you will.

1. These tests usually include a "lie" scale, which is designed to tell if you answered honestly to questions. It is sometimes composed of hidden (and often odd or seemingly pointless) questions within the test itself that have extreme answers. An example might be, "I believe that people should NEVER take vacations. 1=completely true, 5=completely false." Questions that use extreme kinds of words like ALWAYS or NEVER may be lie scale questions - people who are just filling in bubbles don't answer these in a normal way consistently.

Additionally, lie scales sometimes are composed of statistical "grouping comparisons" (sorry, I don't know what a better term is), in which they compare your answers on, for instance, all the questions about how angry you are, or how you perceive your own intellectual functioning. If your answers consistently don't match up (because you answered "very much so" on some questions and "not at all" on other, related questions), you will be tagged as a fake.

2. You will also see many questions on these tests that say things like "Sometimes I feel angry". Don't be afraid to answer honestly to these types of questions. Normal people are sometimes angry. And if you answer at the other extreme of the scale (you say that you NEVER get angry), they will also tag you as trying to fake the test out. The ultimate key to psychological tests is MODERATION. Think about every question carefully. Does it seem like normal people might feel or do whatever the question is asking? Then go ahead and be honest. But (and I can't stress this enough), DON'T put extreme answers on the other side either. Even if you feel really, really angry, just say that you feel a _little_ angry.

What they are looking for is people who answer on either side. Extreme answers indicate false answers or mental illness. So-called "normal" people tend to answer in the middle on many questions.

A caveat to this is: some questions clearly will not be things that normal people feel or do (i.e., "I think the voices in my head are trying to control me"). Some of these are "lie" questions intended to trip you up; some are meant to ferret out those who have schizophrenia and other very serious illnesses.

TO SUM UP:

1. Read all the questions carefully. Ask yourself whether they seem like things that normal people might think, feel, say, or do.

2. If the question seems "normal", answer honestly, but with moderation. Don't answer at either end of the scale on a "normal" question.

3. If the question is abnormal, answer in a way you think makes sense. For instance, if the question asks if you think about killing people all the time, feel free to answer "not at all" (or whatever the scale answer is on that end).

4. Make sure that you answer similar types of questions in similar ways. It is difficult to do this consistently on a 350 item questionnaire when a government psychologist is watching you UNLESS you are answering at least semi-honestly. It is for this reason that I don't advocate "trying to be someone else entirely". Let how you really feel guide your answers, but always apply the "moderation principle". Remember - you don't have to look like a perfect person who never gets angry and has never been sad! You just have to not be outside the bell curve. Stick to 2-4 on a 5 point scale, or 3-5 on a seven point scale.


Of course, if you are trying to appear mentally insane (to get out of a draft or whatnot), you can also apply much of this advice in the opposite direction. :-)

Hope this helps some of you out in the future. Any psych person who actually administers these tests professionally should feel free to correct this or add onto my recommendations if they like. I won't get upset.

Liberally Yours,

DistantEarlyWarning
(who is hoping that the Men In Black don't show up at her house tomorrow for posting this tonight)

"A caveat to this is: some questions clearly will not be things that normal people feel or do (i.e., "I think the voices in my head are trying to control me").

Ha!..I fooled them all. The voices ARE trying to control me but I'm too smart for them.

What? OK

I do not have a mental illness but I am a high functioning autistic and I have found when I tried similar suggestions in the past to glide by on these tests that I had absolutely no luck at all in figuring out how a normal person would have answered a question. Sure, a normal person gets angry, but would a normal person admit it in a test to get a job?

I have taken practice tests several times and answered as I thought a normal person would and have been surprised at how far off I have been.

I think we need some scheme where people can get the actual questions and answers to the tests. Memorizing what we should say is something anyone can do even if they are not neurotypical.

I don't have any advice for you.

Re: the "scheme". It is possible that some other DUer could get access to a copy of the MMPI. I do not currently have access to such items myself, although I have in the past and may again in the future. It would probably have to be stolen by someone or some psychologist would have to break an important code of their profession to put it out there for public access - these tests are kept in some secrecy for obvious reasons.

As for the "answers" - the problem with that one is that there aren't really any truly "right answers". The results of the tests are based on complex statistical comparisons between your answers, and your answers compared with the aggregate answers of "normal" and "abnormal" people. It's not really possible to get a copy of the answers per se, although one could take a copy of a person's answers who tested "normal" and memorize what they answered to each question (make sure the person was your gender - that factors in!).

That scheme would probably require the theft of confidential test results from a psychologist, or some other equally as illegal activity. Or if you know a liberal-friendly practicing psychologist out there perhaps they could help you. (Note to freepers: I am NOT advocating this behavior - I am only giving my totally unprofessional opinion! So don't bother turning me into Homeland Security or whatever other cockamamie scheme your little minds think up this week.)

I figure when I take one of these tests, I do about as well as Spock would have done...ha!

...Faking NT in real-time is something else again.

In an employment situation, there is little point trying to fool the
test, because you won't have fooled the interviewer.

A mandatory government screening and "treatment" pogrom^H^H^H^H^H^H program is
another matter. There would seem to be VERY good reasons not to get
caught up in such a thing.
A lot of the treatment that autistics receive does more harm than good.

They might even throw autistics to the Fundies under their "faith-based"
initiatives. Fundies regard autism as a sign of demonic possession, to be cured by exorcism (they call it "deliverance"). The patient does not
necessarily survive this "treatment" (google for Terrence Cottrell).

or bi-polar human being? It's who writes up the DSM-neo-cons and fundies, brain weighers, witch doctors and exorcists, even phrenologists in all likely hood--Department of Corrections rejects and behaviorists dominate imo.

Did I mention that a big piece of Dr. Aspergers work
was protecting his patients from the Nazis.
The Nazis had the same "cure" for mental issues as they had for
being gay or Jewish.

Alas, Dr. Asperger could not protect his patients from Allied bombers
which destroyed the clinic and killed all the children in it in 1943.

Then sing a bar of "You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant" 'cept Alice :)

"I like mannish women"

I remember taking the MMPI 20 years ago and thinking about how to answer that one for quite a while!

that personality stuff is pretty silly...usually they diagnose based upon your actual life experience, not some test.

It is pretty silly. I don't put too much faith in these tests myself, especially the ones to test for mental illness. I am not a fan of the "individual differences" mode of thinking. I am just trying to provide some information about them to the liberal public sector (many of whom have probably never seen one of these tests and have no idea what's in them).

Nevertheless, some of the examples I gave above are actual examples from tests that I know of. And I think it is probably very likely that a mass govt. mental illness testing session would involve the MMPI or a very similar test, which will ask you questions just like these. Clinical psychologists really truly believe that those tests work, and the government is too stupid or uninterested to do any research to question their judgment.

Did you know that they make sentencing recommendations for criminals, decisions in custody disputes, and other legal recommendations based on these tests?

"Do you believe the government should provide healthcare?"

"Do you believe the drinking age should be reduced?"

"Do you believe big corporations have too much power?"

Me, I'd fake freeperness.

I agree with you, but sometimes Me thinks its not wise, and always We are just not sure.

:evilfrown: :evilgrin:

Wht about the other validity scales, such as F and K, which are empirically based? K, for instance, consists of all the items that serve to predict whether the test will render a false negative against a known clinical population. That is to say, they took all the psychologically disturbed people who had shown "false negative" results, i.e. tested normal even though they were known to be abnormal, and searched their test results for items that they as a group had scored higher on than the general population. The K score is a validity indicator in itself, and is also used to provide a weighting score on some of the clinical scales in an attempt to rectify the false-negative result.

There are other ways of looking for validity on an MMPI as well, such as examining whether you answer the items in various internally consistent ways. Many of the scales have a breakdown of subtle versus obvious items, etc., and there are certain clinical patterns that don't make sense and thereby alert you to the probability that the respondent is playing games.

So it ain't all as simple as some would have you think.

What little I pretend to know about the MMPI, by the way, is based on having done interpretations of maybe 2,000 of them, mostly in forensic settings where people are always trying to look sicker or healthier than they actually are.

Since it sounds like you know a lot about this stuff, perhaps you could provide some additional explanation and some recommendations.

Like before the internet goes away and all the homosexuals, liberals, and intellectuals start disappearing? Because it's something the even the freepers would make a big fucking stink about. My dad would have had a huge cow, and my mom would, too - even if George Wonderful Goodpersonbush personally asked her to take the test.

If a person actually needs psychiatric help (and quite a few of us do) there is no point in faking the answers to a diagnostic test. Many people benefit from psychiatric care, but the provider can't help unless the patient is honest about themselves.

I understand that this thread is for people worried about government-administered tests, like the sort of thing that happened in the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. If it comes to that, sure, I'd fake my answers. The thing is, if a dictatorship wants to "get" me, they won't care what I put down as an answer.

In the meantime, I would hate to think that somebody didn't get the psychiatric help they needed because they were afraid to seek care or afraid to tell the truth to their provider. I have personally benefited from care for depression and anxiety. I recommend seeking care to anyone who is troubled with psychiatric problems.

I will not be honest nor will I seek the help I need. Sorry, the risks are greater than the potential benefits. I have been way too honest and, in retrospect, it didn't do a damn thing for me.

using the schools to push drugs at a level far beyond the mess we already have?

Clearly, any variation from the "norm" is going to be found treatable with the drug de jour, whatever that might be. Additional millions of kids will join the ADD and ADHD ranks, along with even more esoteric and problematical definitions, all of which will push Glaxo's profit margins even higher.

This is an atrocity out of the same mindset that pushed eugenics in this country, sterilizing the "feeble minded" and so forth.

That the conservatives, of all people, would support such a blatant interference with individual freedoms and rights makes my mind wobble.

WTF is the right on this issue and, for that matter, WTF is the left?

I have a condition (high functioning autistic) that is not a mental illness and that can't be treated with drugs anyway. There is no way to make me "normal" nor would I wish to be. It is a just a different more literal way of thinking. And it's fine.

In recent years, I have learned of any number of folks with children given this diagnosis (or Asperger's) and being told that the child should be drugged. WTF? The condition cannot be treated or cured with drugs. The drugs are strictly to put money in somebody's pocket, at the expense of a child's health. Now that scares me. I hate to think of someone like me drugged up to my eyeballs for, basically, the crime of being a nerd.

Teachers want a class of kids sitting perfectly still in rapt attention.
Anyone who doesn't, is likely to be "diagnosed" ADHD by the teacher.

Autistics get labelled ADHD for stimming, and frequently medicated for that.
Even when they figure out that someone is autistic, the professionals
seem to obsess with the stimming, often developing elaborate behavioral
therapies to suppress it.

We don't need to stim less, we need to stim better.

They're not the same thing.

And since when did teachers start performing medical diagnoses?

I was diagnosed as ADHD at age nine. Medicated with Ritalin for several years. It did nothing, because I wasn't hyperactive and didn't have an attention deficit...I'm autistic (Asperger's Syndrome), which I didn't know until a few years ago.

And it will have nothing to do with politics! With all due respect, while I appreciate what you are trying to do, revealing test items and instructing folks on test taking strategies underlying the test is a violation of test ethics, and really unfair to everyone. For example, some of those who have read your post may have a legitimate need to be tested in the future, they will now have distorted results. And I want to warn readers: Following the instructions in this post may actually produce abnormal clinical profiles.

Do not panic. I think there will be others way to beat the system if this all comes to pass. For example, it is illegal and unethical to force any one to take a psych test. Any professional forcing someone to take a test can be help accountable by their respective licensing boards. Simply refuse to take the test rather than giving screwy answers which will hurt you more in the long run. And BTW I believe that MMPIs are unlikely to be given to all. Too long, too expensive.

They are not my colleagues. I may be breaking their code of ethics but I am not breaking mine. I do not believe in using these types of tests to label people with mental illnesses (as they do). Presenting this type of information is not inappropriate for me (and in fact may be MORE ethical given my primary line of work, although I won't elaborate for privacy reasons). However, I do understand that other people may feel differently.

If you think that my advice is incorrect, please elaborate. I fully admit that I need more education myself as this is not exactly my field.

Regarding the advice of "Refuse to take the test": what if the government tells you it's either that or a re-education camp? Also, psychologists and therapists are trained to manipulate people for a living (they are the original spin doctors) and are quite capable of "convincing" people to go along with things they want done. People need to have some other way of dealing with these issues when choice is not an option anymore. Let's help them do that!

Edited for more clarity.

If it comes to "testing or re-education camp" it's time to find a new home... or start a revolution..

that the government is going to subject the general public to MMPI or related tests.

The vast majority of psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists are not "spin doctors." Most are decent people who are doing a job that they believe helps people improve their lives. They usually could be making a good deal more money in a different field of employment. They are among the least likely people in America to go along with a devious government plot to administer MMPIs or urine tests to an unsuspecting, vulnerable population.

There are some good therapists and clinical psych people out there who are genuinely good people trying to make a positive difference in the world. I've met some. But I've also met enough bad ones, who are (IMO) in it for the control it offers over others, and yes, in some cases the money (depends on the clientele), to know that there would be mental health professionals who _would_ go along with such a thing. Here are some examples:

http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/danger.shtml
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/unjustif.htm
http://www.schaler.net/fifth/badtherapy.html

Let me give you another example. We've all read about the Bay Point school "theories" on DU. Nobody knows for sure what the relationship is to vote fraud or Jeff Fisher, but there were links provided to actual news sources discussing the types of things that are done to children at that school and others like it. Those of you who read those links know what I'm talking about - it pretty much amounts to torture. How many therapists, social workers, and clinical psychologists do you think the Bay Point Schools (run by the religious right) employ?

Do you think psychologists who work at the Bay Point Schools would give tests to citizens (especially suspicious citizens) if the government told them to? I bet they would...

Written by a former clinical psychologist about the standards used in forensic psychotherapy. It also includes an interesting section about the variety of tests used to determine whether someone is mentally ill.

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume9/j9_1_2.htm

or maybe that is just for Psychologists

I'm a Clinical Social Worker

I am not an expert in mind control, but I practice psychotherapy.

Relax

and make them do all kinds of disgusting things they wouldn't ordinarily do.

Guess that's how come about 90% of the psychologists I know are liberals.

Psychologists.

The problem isn't with psychologists -- but with the pharmaceutical industries -- and perhaps some of the psychiatrists who work for them.

I have to agree with Jackpine Radical -- 90% of the psychologists I know are liberals to very very liberal. I am probably as liberal as I am today because of these Psychologists I was exposed to while getting my degrees in assorted behavioral sciences.

We see a whole lot of dysfunctional families -- and often the behavior problems of children in school are cries for help. I think perhaps that Bill Cosby was trying to address this issue -- but his remarks were either misreported or perhaps he didn't express his concerns about the disintegration of the American family.

Some families are very healthy -- the communication skills of parents and children are very good -- and there is respect for each other. But I've seen a whole lot of really sick families -- the "first" family of the bushies is an example of a real sick family. Healthy families -- gee whiz all dems -- the Clintons, the Edwards, the Kerry & Heinz combined families.

Have you guys ever thought that the real target of this legislation could be the psychologists? I wouldn't put it past the bushies to set up psychologists as the bad guys.

We know that community based mental health isn't being funded. Most mental hospitals have been closed and the crazies found in cities are being treated like criminals and are bounced in and out of the jails -- and in some cities there are wings of the prisons which are really just mental health wards -- where drugs are prescribed by "fly by" psychiatrists. RayGun closed down the mental hospitals in California -- and the patients suddenly were on their own.

So someone has an idea to "fix" the Nations mental health issues -- throw some money at some schools for testing.

But don't blame the psychologists -- most are on our side and have been fighting the right wing nuts for decades.

Especially the word "relax" ..... I stared at it for almost 12 hours, and when I snapped out of it (I'm sure you clicked your fingers) I had blood all over me. There's blood and guts and gore all over, and Arlo Guthries' holiday song keeps playing in my head .... you did this with your mind-control, didn't you? Well, it's off to Bench W and the military for this Naturally Bored Killer.

When you norm a test on the abnormal, it is only to be used as a diagnostic tool for the abnormal.

Many of the questions on the MMPI are double scored, that is, you will fall into an abnormal range no matter what you answer.

Example: You might answer a question "yes" and have your homosexuality quotient raised, answer "no" and be considered a depression sufferer.

If you claim the bible is not true, you score as depressed.

If you say you read the editorial section every day, you are considered manipulative.


Norming on the abnbormal would be the same thing as norming a physical symptom test on chemotherapy patients. "Do you have appetite problems?" "Do you feel lethargic?" " Do you hate your appearance?"
If you ask the chemo patients, the answers would more often be "yes." If you ask normal people- those not undergoing chemo - the same questions, and they answer "yes" to any, it does not necessarily follow that they, too, have cancer.

Not to mention the fact that in the initial tests, to determine gender traits, they actually pre-determined gender traits in their selection of subjects.

For males? they chose 60 GIs

For females? 60 stewardesses. In the dimmest recesses of the male UNSCIENTIFIC brain, they decided to take typically "servile female" and "macho man" stereotypes and reference them as some sort of norm.

And let's not get into the fact that these tests were conducted on drab, unemotional, conventional Midwesterners. Not exactly passionate folks, which brings in a whole cultural barrenness of tests like the MMPI.

Anyone who exposes this fraud of a tool is doing a service to humanity.

I would be very curious to see if they use the MMPI or similar projective tests. If so they may be trying to develop better predictive norms or gain information to track us.

If you want to defeat this lie like hell. Defeat their norms. Show the disdain for this bullshit that it deserves. What are they going to do?

I saw a copy of Jeffery Dahmers MMPI. Guess what, there were some gender issues otherwise it was very average. What they really want is better norms. If so we need to be paid for that work.

About 15 years ago I had to evaluate a firm that sold employment tests and I went into some detail on how they worked. The one assumption I remember the rep telling me was if someone tolerated someone else's dishonesty... they were probably dishonest themselves. So there would be questions in the test about what would you do if OTHERS were pilfering from the work site.

As Ward or June Cleaver would :P

Is anyone truly surprised by this?

The masses did nothing when damn near everyone could be drug tested at will. No one gave a damn when DNA was being taken and used for anything and everything including deciding medical coverage/insurance. No one gives a damn the government is moving to control reproductive systems.

Does anyone REALLY find it surprising they would move on to taking a look at our minds next? Once again america was asleep at the wheel while intrusion in to our PERSONS (protected by our now obsolete constitution) was moving along. These people take it one step at a time. Fascist regimes ALWAYS want to control the person. In order to do that they have to be able to examine it.

Can't say I'm surprised at all.