Freepers on separation of church and state

The Separation of Church and State The Leftist Battle Cry
Jeremiah Project ^ | Jeremiah Project

Posted on 11/24/2004 3:39:40 PM PST by RepCath

The Leftist social liberals continue to harangue on the "separation of church and state" as justification for eliminating religious issues from public view. The phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words appear nowhere in the Constitution.

Just like "right to privacy" isn't in there, right?

Oblivious to the irrelevance of their arguments, and at the same time refusing to acknowledge that no document of state, let alone the Constitution, has ever proposed such a concept, those on the Left have tried to convince the American people that our founding documents warned of the dangers of mixing politics and religion.

<snip>

To: RepCath

It can be argued that "respecting an establishment of religion" narrowly limits government from declaring an official state religion, and that we are free to make laws grounded in religious belief.

Of course, you then couldn't cry foul when a community decides to create and enforce Islamic based laws (or Buddhist, anyone?), could you? The sword cuts both ways.

8 posted on 11/24/2004 4:17:41 PM PST by Stiletto
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >
To: GoBucks2002
Okay- heres the truth


Article (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Congress:The NATIONAL legislative body of the United States, consisting of the Senate and the House of Representatives.

ESTABLISHMENT- means An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.

as in THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND or the CATHOLIC CHURCH

So basically we cannot have national organized religion but as it says in

Article

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

An individual state like Pennsylvania may have a state sponsored religion Like Quaker

The whole idea of natural rights, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was built on the foundation that there was a God, A Deity, and individuals were entitled to their natural rights by GOD.

Infact- many of our founding fathers,including Thomas Jefferson were not Christians, but Deists. Deism is a belief in God through reason, So this country was founded on the premise of GOD not on organized religion, two completely separate Ideas
9 posted on 11/24/2004 4:27:42 PM PST by LauraleeBraswell (See and decide for yourself)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies >
To: Stiletto
It can be argued that "respecting an establishment of religion" narrowly limits government from declaring an official state religion, and that we are free to make laws grounded in religious belief.

And it could be argued that you are a newbie troll. The fact is that is a very extreme intepretation that has lead to numerous ridiculous rulings. The concept of separation of church and state was not the intent of the First Amendment.

Notice how this poster accuses the other of being a troll. So much for free speech, eh?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1287936/posts

I had always thought that the separation of church and state was implied. Am I wrong?

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."--James Madison

lots more here......
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html

...thanks.

This was never a Christian nation. The founding fathers were Diests.

such as to declare a seperation of church and state?

Sheesh!!

Christianity (and I **am** a Christian) and the Constitution/state not only should be separate, they MUST remain separate, for they seek wholly different goals. Christianity seeks the Kingdom of God; whereas the Constitution guarantees that we have NO KING -- not Washington, not Lincoln, not Jesus.

Christianity suggests how I should personally live my life; the Constitution mandates an order for society.

Ne'er should the twain meet.

Bake

by the highest court of the land with regard to interpretation of the Establishment Clause. The freepers haven't touched on the issues in Everson, Schempp/O'Hair, Lemon, to name a few.

The Constitution is too elastic to interpret it strictly, by its words alone. It was designed to be interpreted and challenged as society developed (or regressed as we see it now).

But what happens when the Pagans and Muslims and Hindus take over and want to put THEIR commandments on the walls of courthouses and THEIR stickers in the science books?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Eroding the separation between church and state is not a good long term strategy for anybody. I consider the current movement towards "Christianizing" our government to be extremely selfish and short-sighted.