Thesis: The New Deal. Antithesis: Bush and Neo-Conservatism.

On EDIT: By "Thesis" I mean the idea of a civilized modern society. With all the bangs and whistles like Pensions, Minimum Wage, Overtime, etcetera. Basically working toward (Not quite reaching I might add) a "Good" society. One that's equitable and really works for everyone, including the eradication of systemic Racism, not just the few (Or even MANY but ALLLLLLL). The "Antithesis" is the contradiction to the Thesis. The idea that that workers really don't have any rights, That pensions are bull and they should be made vulnerable to volitile markets, that healthcare should only be for those that can pony up the cash, that the super wealthy should essentially rule us all, Economic Darwinism: Every MAN for himself (However the fake "markets" in the US are fixed on several pivital points at that, ie. not really "free") etcetera.

What is the Synthesis?

What will be the result of this struggle?

What will be the ultimate outcome?

My opinion? Cooperation will have to trump Competition. The society that respects Labor, respects the People, will/should emerge from the collapse.

The idea of the Welfare State/Social Democracy is under severe attack. Not just here but also against those nations that have tried, against the assault of Global Capitalism, to give a decent standard of living to ALL of their inhabitants. That would be some EU countries including countries like Finland who try their damnedest to make work and life meaningful.

They try, we try, to maintain the idea of a safe retirement, some make the idea of healthcare a Right, we all try to make a days work give a days pay, to make life tolerable for all.

America is the anchor that ties the noose around other developed, and developing, nations when it comes to "Free markets" and the "Free Flow" of capital. We use, create, the WTO, FTAA, World Bank, to disassemble state healthcare and pensions in other nations. To dismantle wage agreements. We even try to privatise water. What's next, air?

This entire system is under massive stress due to its built in deficiencies. The "Armegedon" comments made by high powered economists are not fantasy. Krugman is not insane.

It may take a few years but the end of "Civilized" America are numbered. The era of us sucking the lifeblood from defensless peoples so we can drive bigger and dumber vehicles are numbered. The concept of Super Banana Republic may already be here, most of us (I know that many here have already, what's your solution?) have probably not felt the ripples however.

We're a technologically advanced nation, the biggest actually, so in my humble opinion it's up to us to make, not hope, but make a solution to this fucked up "free" market mess.

So what is the synthesis?

To turn a blind eye and wait for a collapse? Or to take what we know and use it together?

EDIT: Yes. I have invoked Hegel here, sorry:-)

I foresee the collapse of the modern capitalist ecnonomy leading to something like Finland

I foresee the end of consumption for consumption sake

I foresee a complete rebuilding of our ethical standards, from nontihng, as those have been destroyed

I also foresee the disolution of the United States.

But to get from here I foresee lots of war, pain and death... maybe even a billion people when all is said and done... and if these idiots survive, I foresee trials for them and ironically a strenthening of the world community, from the 1950s standard to actually having some real enforcement power to international institutions.

Further edit, I noticed... been reading Heguel and Arendt and Marx and Kirkegard in the recent past

Can any "market" regulate that? Or would it have to have legal constraints?

What I foresee emerging out of this mess is a strenghthend labor, even labor taking partially over the means of production (Yes that is Marx)

I also expect legal constraints on the difference of equity and pay from the lowest on the line to upper management, as well as time needed for work.

Now we could also see a whole new system where we only get exactly what we need, not more or less... and that is in some ways the way Iceland and Finland do business.

If I was a Marxist, I'd say that those two societes, in particular Findland, are the closest to a true socialist society... but that will not happen here unless the shock is massive.

Out of that shock we may even see an equitable distribution of resources out of need, not want. If what I think may happen, happens, then triage of resources will become a way of life, regardless of the aparent human need to exploit others

What worries me is that this new synthesis you are seeing is the rise of a new totalitarian state... the same way that Nazi and Stalinist russia rose... one had Jews and Labor the other the old farmers... here it will be Muslims, blakcs, Mexicans, and Jews. We are seeing the creation of the other as we speak, and that scares me... quite a bit

My initial assumption was that the "antithesis" was in fact proto-facsism. We've only just started that.

I can only hope that it's muted by our diversity and size.

everybody should...

Of course accompany that with Orwell's 1984, and maybe her Banality of Evil and Nietze's Ubermentch... some strauss when you really want to sleep... that man did not write well, ON PURPOSE

Nietze bores me. Yes I've read god, or Zarasuthra, knows how many pages and ploop! Nietz (sp?)

Not familiar with Strauss however. I'm writing an incomprehensible novel, I love bad writing. What would you recommend?

Arendt is on the bookshelf waiting for me to finish the "Green Knight"...

these loons. Hence why it is important for people to read them... even if they are boring.

I like your thinking here. LOL. If these rabid Darwinian capitalists only knew they represent nothing more than an intermediary variable in a proto-socialist formula!!!

They'd crap their pants!

:yourock:

Much like every product that we produce or have produced for us.

And yes, they WILL crap their pants eventually. I can't say when but I can almost smell it.

Ugh...Can't believe I said that.

someone slightly obsessed with the dialectic?

To see what outcomes are either desired, abhored, or unstoppable.

Plus I added the Hegel reference, I'm clear:-)

my sig says it all.....

What's up with you? Still hanging in St. Pete?

and making list of the locals fascists to keep handy for the when the revolution happens.

Power outages, or hard-drive crashes, don't mean a thing to a little red/black/blue notebook.

Steph and I will probably make a trip down to Florida after the new year, maybe we could plot a <self deleted> or something when I'm down there?

i'll be around, ring me up.

However, if I may invoke a bit of Sartre, I think the only way we can get ourselves out of this situation is to re-recognize the power of serving our own best interests. Unlike the distorted gobbledygook that pours out of the televangelical thievery dens, however, the term "self-interest" is more Emersonian than Spencerian. Unless we realize that we are all in this life together, we will continue to vote into office criminals who will steal the very underwear we're wearing. If I do not see that my life depends on your life, then I will not be able to make good decisions in my own self-interest. I'll be too busy trying to "get ahead" (which, naturally, means that you will have to "fall behind")--and getting nowhere in the process.

I fear the collapse is not only inevitable, but that it may be necessary as well. I don't look forward to it, anymore than any sane person does. But I think it will take such a catastrophe to open people's minds. For all its horror and despair and destruction, my father's generation still looks back nostalgically at the Great Depression, when neighbors counted on each other and the nation pulled together as never before. Yes, that's a rather glamorized view of that time, misted over by the reality of having survived it. But the point is that, at least for a while, it served to consolidate the nation into a productive, reasonably happy populace. The Peace and Love Movement of the 60s could not, IMO, have happened without the Crash of 29. Also IMO, the error we made in that Era of Love was in our narrow focus of ending the Vietnam War; if we had focused instead on recreating the social system and blocking the inevitable backlash from the "Establishment" (and to some degree, by this I mean political action and the taking up of government positions by people who believed in Peace and Freedom), we might not be writing these messages to each other today.

:kick: