Sweden..."Socialist Hell-hole"...

Seems a Swedish journalist wrote an article that indicated some Americans living in Sweden were unhappy about Dumbya's second misadministration. Some of our web-toed countrymen emailed her about those American expatriots and about Sweden and Europe in general.

- - - - - - -
"There is no going home if they think that America is wrong. Thankfully, they can stay in your God forsaken Socialist Hell hole and whine" wrote one commentator.

"The International Community ... gave birth to Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, the Mongols, the Vikings, Napoleon, Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the Emperor of Japan that attacked Pearl Harbor..."

"Let them stay in Europe, where snivelling, whining and appeasement of terrorism is, like euthanasia and hatred of America, an accepted way of life".

"Had it ever occurred to you that our strong moral character (the one that Euro’s think is irrational, extremist and down-right foolish) is the reason Europe is still Europe and not the United States of the Third Reich or part of the USSR", wrote one Bush supporter.

http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1076154615554

Got this from the freepoid site....

Typical of their remarks...."Cheese-covered-reindeer-meat-eating surrender monkeys..."

More at:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1288085/posts

Nobody's perfect.

standard of living than the ol'USofA.

...Freepers are into "faith-based" critique; they needn't actually experience anything for themselves before condemning it on principle.

Welcome to America, where if you get sick, you'd better write your will.

Why aren't thousands of Swedes and Norwegians and Danes gathering at our borders, pleading for asylum, hoping to escape their grim socialist hell-holes? Why aren't Ole and Lena stowing away in the landing gear wells of US-bound airliners or trying to make their way across the North Sea in rafts? Why don't we find illegal immigrant Scandinavians among the migrant farm workers and hotel maids and busboys?

Hmm?

There is no motivation for the citizens of either to be beating down each other's doors.

There are many features of the US that are indeeed third world, today.

Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, all of the Apostles,

not to mention Democracy itself.

I notice that Arnold used the S word, comparing the Democrats to the government/economy of Austria. So I did a little comparison, courtesy of google and the CIA's world factbook. In per capita GDP they are at $30,000 compared to $37,800 for America. So they are not quite as rich. In spite of that only 3.9% of their population lives in poverty compared to 12% for us. Their lowest 10% spends 2.5% of the national income compared to 1.8% here. Their highest 10% spends 22.5% compared to 30.5% here. So America is probably a better place if you are in the top 10%, like Arnold is. Of course he came to America with nothing. Well, nothing if you do not count several world bodybuilding championships, so his Horatio Alger story is one of his "True Lies". The average Austrian man lives 76 years compared to 74.63 here. The CIA does not have certain other statistics like how Americans start working younger and retire later than most Europeans, how we have longer work weeks, fewer vacations and fewer holidays, more crime, more violence, and more people in prisons. It does mention that Austria does not have a huge national debt. All in all, they are not doing too badly with their "socialism". It is too bad that Arnold is not a little older, or he might realise how much Bush deserves the other F word too.

:hi:


The gropenator is my governator (eeewww!!!)

Their definition of "poverty" is much lower than ours. Almost nobody owns a home in socialist countries, and anything above $15k is considered "middle class".

...you better supply a link before I'll buy what you are selling.

European states don't exactly qualify as socialist; we are liberal market economies - just with more rational social policies that US.

But since you asked, I think Cuba qualifies as socialist state:

"for those encountering the reality of a socialist revolutionary approach to housing policy for the first time, there are a few surprises in store. Not least is the fact that Cuba has a higher level of home ownership than either the UK or the USA."

http://www.ppmagazine.co.uk/marfeat2.html

Here are the Top Ten countries in per capita income in the world:
1.
Norway
$38,730
2.
Switzerland
$36,170
3.
United States
$35,400
4.
Japan
$34,010
5.
Denmark
$30,260
6.
Sweden
$25,970
7.
United Kingdom
$25,510
8.
Hong Kong
$24,690
9.
Finland
$23,890
10.
Austria
$23,860

6 of the Top-Ten are "socialist" European democracies.

In the US, 22.4 percent of children live in poverty. The lowest levels of child poverty are to be found in France (7.9 percent), Finland (4.4 percent) and Sweden (2.6 percent)

Your home ownership facts are wrong too:

Home ownership:

Ireland 82%
Spain 80%
Luxembourg 77 %
Norway 73%
Belgium 72%
Greece 72%
Italy 68 %
United Kingdom 67 %
United States 67%
Canada 64 %
Denmark 60%

"Let them stay in Europe, where snivelling, whining and appeasement of terrorism is, like euthanasia and hatred of America, an accepted way of life".

What is the freeper's deal with "European Euthanasia"? I've been told a couple of times that Europe's population is dying off because they have legalized abortions or some crap like that. Is this crazy freeper theory rooted in racism/nationalism or are they really having problems?

are well below replacement. It really is a problem but one that will probably be rectified by increased immigration from Eastern European Union members.

some world body makes the ratings annually.. World Health Organization?

anyone recall the group?

about the third time norway won.

I am intimately familiar with it, as a Canadian, I am constantly having to defend my better standard of living against those rethuglicans who LOVE to throw the "S" word around....

recently put out their ratings for best places in the world to live. Here's a clip from the Independent:

"The Independent - For generations, hundreds of thousands left the Emerald Isle fleeing war and famine ­ all clinging to the belief life would be better elsewhere. Now, after two decades of a meteoric rise that has staggered financial gurus, Ireland has topped a poll as the best place to live in the world.

In a report published by The Economist magazine, the Republic won over Switzerland, Australia and Italy. In the process, Ireland trounced the main destinations of its traditional emigration. The US ranked 13th with the UK coming in at a miserable 29th position ­ the lowest of any EU pre-expansion members."

All Top Ten countries were "socialist hell-holes" except Australia.

Considering how I see my American friends scramble to get a job, any job, so that they might get health coverage in time, for example, to have the surgery that will save their hearing and hinder brain damage - well, I might be unemployed, but at least here in Norway that won't kill me. In fact, there are a lot of things I can be pretty sure is safe here that I can't in the US, simply because of laws and regulations that has been chucked out, or never passed, in there (food regulations, discimination laws, gun laws...)

I'll take the socialist hellholes any day over the fascist Mordor the US is fast becoming.

It's not a real problem, but a blessing, looking from the big picture.

Earths population is in serious overshoot, and Europeans (too) are consuming natural resources much more than the enviroment can handle. Decreasing population increases greatly our chanses to succeed in achieving soft landing into post-carbon era of sustainable population & consumption levels as humanely as possible while preserving highly developed technological culture and comfy standard of living.

though I'd be interested to know the statistics. The cause of the low birth rate is not legalized abortion or even the availability of contraceptives but rather the decision of more couples to use contraception, and sometimes abortion, to have smaller families or no children at all. The U.S. birth rate has declined, too, but not yet to the point where the government worries about it. Couples choose to have fewer kids today because few can afford to have large families and because women have careers and it's difficult to include more than one or two maternity leaves in a career. Large families are an asset in a farming economy, but there are few farmers today. Societies evolve, that's all.

Eastern Europeans and Africans are major groups of immigrants to Western Europe, along with some Asians and Arabs; lots of Muslim immigrants from all those regions.
Europe in the future will likely be Muslim, and with a high percentage of persons of color in the population, just like the U.S. population will be half-Hispanic before long.

but do vary quite a lot between countries (abortion law varies widely).

Abortions per 1000 population (looking at the largest EU countries): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_abo_cap

US: 4.17
UK: 2.78
France: 2.67
Italy: 2.31
Germany: 1.18

Sweden and Hungary are the only 2 EU countries with a higher rate than the USA.

Europe will get more Muslims than at present, and they might possibly outnumber Christians at some point, but I doubt they will outnumber agnostics/atheists; assuming Muslims birth rates will stay at the current relatively high rates doesn't make much sense (immigrant birth rates are normally higher than their descendants').

I think the Netherlands were the first to legalize assisted suicide. Don't know of any other EU countries off the top of my head that have followed suit.

How can they possibly be inferior to anyone? Republicans can't even keep their own stories straight.

can read so much that they realize it's Finland, not the fecking Nordic Aryans.

to have a good memory, don't they?

Giving all the glory to our mortal enemies, those Swedes smelling of rotten fish, totally undeserved because the article is from Finland, the real Socialist Hell-Hole (if only...), proud receiver of Freeper hate-mail!

Immediate apology expected and lot of grovelling! :mad: ;)

Here's suggestion for appropriate punishment: apology on behalf of you countrymen to Laura Pekonen plus 500 word essey on how wonderfull country Finlad is! :D

... all of that! I've got a minor in Geography, and have taught it... in the dim and distant past.

It's from a Helsinki paper.. you'd think I'd have noticed!

PS... you get points off for mispelling Finland in your last line!

"European and American opponents of Bush can, of course, feel that their criticism is justified. However, at the same time it should be kept in mind that if the Europeans again need the support of the United States for some as yet unknown reason, the right wing - which won the election - may feel that not all of them deserve it. "

This is really bloody awfull fear-mongering appeasement propaganda to American fascism. Please take notice that Helsingin Sanomat, the biggest daily in Finland, is propagandizing for Finland to join NATO (ie ally militarily with US against the majority opinion), adopt even more neoliberal economic policies, and keep on appeasing to Bush in the name of all-important transatlantic partnership. Naturally, the owners and chief editors of Helsingin Sanomat are regular guests at the Bilderberg meetings.

Please - seriously this time! - let Laura Pekonen hear from the other side of America too.

...given how the American right-wing has been "helping" Iraq, should you guys ever feel that we in Europe need your "help", do us a favour and don't fucking bother. 'Kay?

To whom was that post addressed to, exactly? Lurking Freeper?

Me Finn, as should be obvious by now, you... may I ask?

So sort of European.

European, but likes doesn't like to admit it.

Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb

... important to study history to prevent making similar mistakes in the US

You have something against healthcare and education for everyone and a small number of people living in poverty?

... socialism over a free-market, free-enterprise economy?

I don't, I support an overhauled and reformed health-care system but if forced to make a choice between the two, I'll stick with capitalism. Woundn't you?

as in Rummy's "freedom can be untidy"?
or Bush's "New Freedom Initiative"?
or the freedom of the 'liberated' Iraqi's?

all these words... all they do is sound nice.

do you really think there's no "free trade" in "socialist" Europe? we're on the Globalization bandweagon as much as the US is, cheating poor nations out of Trillions of dollars.


Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
Tuesday, November 9th, 2004
DemocracyNow!
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251&mode=thread&tid=25

... or that there is "free" unregulated or unmonopolized trade in US?

Capitalism does not mean free trade, it means freedom of capitalist exploitation of human and natural resources until self-destruction, it means rule of capital instead of rule of we the people.

As for the pair individualism and collectivism/socialism, as absolutes they are both totalitarian and fundamentally broken, as humans are both individuals and social beings. The answer is somewhere between, not in either end.

Oh well, it takes all kinds of people ...

I'll stick with capitalism thank you.

On a lighter note: Have you seen this yet?

"Sidewalk Chalk Guy"

http://gprime.net/images/sidewalkchalkguy/

an example -

The Western European countries are capitalist.
They just place a higher priority on the well-being of their citizens than we do.
I can't imagine this child (Alabama, 1996) living in these conditions in Stockholm or Oslo:

It's so cool.

See US History pre-social reforms under the Roosevelts (both Teddy and Franklin)

The Western European Nations actually have a blend of capitalism and socialism that works well. It is a form of regulated capitalism with a social obligation instead of the rape and pillage Capitalism of the pre-social reforms in the US.

The USA actually has a blend of socialism. Here are only SOME of our Socialized Programs:

The VA HealthCare system is PURE Socialism and has worked well.

The Armed Services (less so today and getting worse as more privatization creeps in.

Public School System (outperformed the Charter Schools in Texas this year)

Public Highway system

National Parks

Federal waterways

Police depts

Fire Depts

Weights and Measures

Food and Drugs

DOT

US Weather Bureau

Dept of Agriculture

FDIC Banking




There are MANY, MANY more, and most work well with low overheads and good performance.

Do you really want to live in a Free Trade Capitalist system?? I don't, because I've read my history.

All advocates of socialism are not advocates of installing a pure socialism as the only government of our country.

In fact very few people think that, making it rather suspect you jumped to that conclusion.

that particular straw man has been used.

"Free-market enterprise" is one thing when it comes to hula-hoops and perfume, but something else again when it comes to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Should we have "free market" government? How about "free market" highways? (Been tried. Failed miserably.)

I see absolutely nothing 'moral' or 'just' about picking the pockets of the injured and ill. Bill Frist, the wealthiest member of Congress, seems to have confused the Hippocratic Oath with the Hypocritical Boast.

Any society that condones and celebrates those who enrich themselves from the ignorance and suffering of others is a morally bankrupt society.

ever wants to switch to our price-gouging, horrible service system.

The Japanese system was far superior in every way and the monthly premium for a family of 4 was $65.

There are many things the government does better and cheaper than the private sector. Acknowledging that fact and structuring a society accordingly doesn't make it "socialist". Sweden and the other European countries are free-market economies, they just actually look out for the interests of their people.

When the EU was formed, it required that all members bring their living, environmental, labor and health care standards UP to a certain level.

When NAFTA was signed, it essentially brought the US and Canada DOWN to Mexico's level. Many of our trade pacts take precedence over our standing environmental laws.

If I had any family in Europe, I'd be there now.

implicit in so many Dems' posts that you don't understand?

unfettered capitalism-which is where we're heading-leads to a huge disparity between rich and poor, like during the Robber Barron period of American history. Do you understand the difference between social democracy, socialism, and communism? Then you know that all the European countries are capitalist, but most are social democracies.

The European countries have their problems, but they cater to the basic needs of their citizens: a roof over their head, education, and basic healthcare. The longevity and quality of life in these countries exceeds the US.

How do you feel about unions? Most low-wage workers in Europe are unionized.

sixty percent of US population is in poverty at some point in their lives.

End poverty to set the stage for freedom. Not final, but basic and necessary.

/end sarcasm

Just because they have more welfare policies and more progressive taxation, some radicals start tossing uninformed insults at them.

Ever heard of Nokia? Big, badass multinational private corporation from Finland.

:shrug:

Jesus = liberal socialist: "All in this together"; "love thy neighbour"; "be responsible for your actions".

God = communist/totalitarian: "Do as I say, not as I do"; "Love thy neighbour - but not one tenth as much as thou lovest Me".

Satan = laissez-faire capitalist: "The world is yours"; "Devil take the hindmost"; "not my fucking problem".

I always think it's ironic that US right-wingers worship a God who is basically anti-freedom, who's all about subjugating your personal will to that of your 'Master'. And they revile Satan, who embodies the dog-eat-dog materialism that, politically, they espouse. Jesus fits nicely between the two, so perhaps that explains his appeal.

I must apologize for some of my American friends who still think we are living in a 'free enterprise' economy-

- Adam Smith, one of the fathers of 'laissez-faire' capitalist economic theories would be shocked at what is going on-- its corporate monopoly--- there is no 'free enterprise' in America anymore.

The 'American Dream' of being able to work hard and become rich is gone. People inherit wealth now.

your religious anologies are very insightful

:kick:

Although oddly, while I don't really support capitalism, I have a lot of time for Satan...

If you read Gospel of Thomas, Jesus appears more like communist libertarian / anarchosyndicalist, but most of all not u- but atopian.

On Creator/Demiurge/Yahweh/Yaldabaoth I agree (and he's really the same guy as Satan)

Lucifer/Prometheus/Logos is the social liberal guy of Enlightment (way obvious even from etymology!).

When you realize that Satan is same as the Stupid&Ignorant God (Yaldabaoth) and not Lucifer like they want you to believe, the whole thing about Southern Babtist and the rest of the gang starts to make sense.

Tip from personal experience: If you're going to talk about this stuff on a first date, ask the girl if she's a Christian first. Saves on a lot of awkwardness.

PISTIC Christian, remember, PISTIC! It's them Pistics that are heretics, not Gnostics! ;)

- Mademoiselle, you wouldn't by any chanse happen to be Pistic?
- Piss of yourself!

Thank Yaldabaoth I'm married with Pagan... :D

Was sick on my shoes and everything.

I didn't mean you were gnostic AND a heretic... 'gnostic heresy' is a term for that whole "God's a bit of a tyrant, Satan was misunderstood" thing.

I looked up 'Pistic' on dictionary.com - it just said "Pure or genuine". Which I guess kind of fits - looking purely at God's actions, rather than his own justification of them...

Pistic comes from the Greek word for belief/faith (pistis), just as Gnostic from the Greek for knowlegde (gnosis). Seems that dictionary.com doesn't score very highly in quality points...

Pistics are called that (by Gnostics) because in their system it's salvation through faith alone or both faith and deeds, depending on nomination. For Gnostics salvation is gnosis, wich refers both to (conseptual) knowledge about "divine things" and direct (non-conseptual) knowledge/experience of God, "mystical union", "enlightment", that sortta thing.

When Gnostics speak of God, they mean something totally undefinable which is NOT the same god as the vengefull and jealous god of Old Testament, which is the more or less fucked up Creator or Demiurge of the physical world (or Architect of Matrix ;)), rapist of Eve and so on, which mythically represents separation from God; "original sin/error". Pistics try to combine God and Demiurge into One God with Personality, with poor success IMO ("credo quid absurdum est" seems to be their unavoidable motto).

The whole story, naturally, is much more complicated. For more info: http://gnosis.org/

I've only read a bit of this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/019818462X/103-5676341-9859866?v=glance

I'm not an expert or anything, it's just an idea I like playing around with.

For the record, I'm an atheist. I think I'd actually like to believe in God (or a nice one anyway), but for me it's like trying to believe in the Tooth Fairy... dude just doesn't exist. I think I'm a "frustrated atheist".

God, in the Gnostic sense, cannot be described by either existance or non-existance, because the dude is beyond all dualistic consepts and encompasses them all. :D

Me, neither theist nor atheist, simply don't give a toss about the dude or dudes and dudettes. Actually more of the Buddhist inclination than Gnostic Christian, but they are basically equivalent philosophies/religions.

What does that mean? It's not in my dictionary; a Google search shows a lot of Finnish sites. Some new concept from Finland?

Basically, I made the word up. :)

But thanks for the tip, I googled it too, it's been used in anarchistic and postmodern connection, not sure in exactly what sense. The Finnish links are medical, they refer to atopic skin.

So what does it mean? I wanted to make difference to the word utopia (which commonly refers to communist "paradise"), from Greek ou-topos), 'no-place', by using instead the a-prefix negation in a way wich is a bit of fashion in the postmodern studies, to mean 'not bound by the consept of place', cf. non-local in Quantum Physics.

What I had in mind is that Jesus says in Gospel of Thomas that when we make inside and outside, high and low etc. the same, we have reached the "Kingdom of Father", ie salvation is unbound by the consepts of place and space.

Socialists believe that the way to create a just society is a just government with oversight of the entire economy that aims to produce social, economic, and political equality.

Communists believe that society will evolve, or can evolve, to a point where our entire structure breaks down and a new one is formed where, without much of any government, people act in communities and it doesnt require oversight. This is also what Jesus believed. Not that the government should be reformed, but that the people should be reformed. That there could be a fundemental change in the way we approach the world, and if we made that change we would be living in the best possible way.

He advocated no order to society, he advocated each and every person taking responsibility for everyone. If we all live for each other, as well as ourselves, we could all produce happiness for each other.

...reading these "Jesus was a communist" posts:

Try cotton wool in the ears; it should stop the heamorraging in no time.

It really is becoming a problem, and it's caused by this sort of thing. Swedish journalist writes reasonable article -> gets picked up by Freepers, who hurl abuse and say "screw you" -> a bunch of previously rational Europeans say, "well, screw you back!"

I know you guys know this, but we foreign Americophiles are having a hard time. This sort of thing gets thrown in our face all the time, not just over the internet but face-to-face. A lot of people who don't have as much interest in American politics just see two things:

1. The war.

2. The insults thrown at Europe. They don't even know the word "freeper" - most of them don't appreciate how deep the divisions are.

What this means is that the freepers are launching the most enormous and effective propaganda campaign against the US without understanding the consequences or caring about them. And it's creating huge problems for moderates and multilateralist here. The US RW is manufacturing hatred of American, intolerance, a divide in the war on terror and a nascent boycott of American goods.

Doesn't anybody read anything before posting?

Other than that, good post. By hating Americans, even the fascist ones, we would only play their game and enable and support more fascism.

But the origin post does say Swedish journalist. I didn't spot the domain postfix on the web link.

Seems bicmac is somewhat geographically challenged. No biggie, it's my problem, the famous low self-esteem of Finns making us so nitpickety

By the way, I agree with your other comments in response #28

He knew what he was doing on his conquest. DIdin't burn down Jerusalem like the Christains did. Didin't make sure... well, I could go on.

in the whole world. I don't know why they should move back.

Most and Least Livable Countries: UN Human Development Index, 2004

Most Livable” Countries, 2004
1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United States
9. Japan
10. Ireland
11. Switzerland
12. United Kingdom
13. Finland
14. Austria
15. Luxembourg
16. France
17. Denmark
18. New Zealand
19. Germany
20. Spain
21. Italy
22. Israel
23. Greece
24. Singapore
25. Portugal
26. Slovenia
27. Korea, South
28. Barbados
29. Cyprus
30. Malta



http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0778562.html

ancedote here. One of my neighbors years ago was a Swede married to an American. At first she loved America because she was free to smoke all the pot she wanted to and she had aspirations to be a rock star. The Swedish government is somewhat meddlesome in it's citizens lives, frowning on drinking, dope taking and being unemployed.

After a year, the disillusionment set it with Inga (not her real name). Her marriage fell apart with too much pot smoking and partying. Even her husband felt she was over the top, but there was more to it. When she left to return to Sweden she said something to me that always stuck with me.

She said, "In Sweden you will never see all the people living and dying in the streets like you do here in America with no care. I will do rehab in Sweden because we have national health care that will help me. In Sweden people who are disabled or people who are old and have nothing to fall back on are taken care of by the government. I can't believe I thought America was so great when it cares nothing for it's people."

Right, George?

and getting stridently defensive when contradicted during the meeting

The source of the story is Senator Joe Biden, the man who has been mentioned as a candidate for the Secretary of State position for presidential candidate John Kerry. They were discussing the best possible way of executing a peace plan for the Middle East. The problem was that forces form countries like Germany and France would not be accepted by the parties in the conflict. It was suggested sending forces from one of the Scandinavian countries:

«For example Sweden,» said Democrat Tom Lantos.

Allegedly President Bush looked at him.

«I don’t understand why you are talking about Sweden,» Bush said. «They’re neutral. They don’t have an army.»

Lantos thought the President heard him wrong and thought that he talked about Switzerland, which, by the way, also has an army, and stressed that he was referring to Sweden. However, President Bush, who had visited Gothenburg six months earlier, did not back down:

«No, no, Sweden doesn’t have an army.»

According to the article in the New York Times, it became dead quiet in the room until someone changed the topic.

http://www.contentbin.com/redir.php?r=13913

I must have missed it because I glaze over for all things Chimpy. Thanks for a good laugh.

anything you don't understand. Makes them feel comfy and secure in their Walmart Jobs and while they're waiting for their foodstamps.

freeptards are. :shrug:

freeptards didn't make that mistake. It was a fellow DUer who by accident relocated my home town. No harm done, haven't been in Sweden for a while... ;)

You know the one... I can't remember his name... who attacked that one island deal.

Whoozits, you know the one.

david

Expansionist emperors who see themselves (and are seen by their followers) as God... thank Jeebus it only happens in the "international community"!

Much better living standards in most of Europe, and Japan.

One time I mentioned that on a freeper board and one of them told me "The Japanese live in tiny little shoeboxes. It's horrible.

Of course that's not true, although the average Japanese home (in the city - country homes are larger) has half the square footage of an American one, and many Tokyoites live in tiny one-room studios, the fact is that Japanese are better able to make a living and have some savings, carry less debt, and in most cases, a father can be the sole income provider and support the family - nearly impossible here in the states.

Job security is STILL better, there is cheap, efficient, safe public transportation, and crime is a tiny fraction of what it is here. Everyone is covered by health insurance.

But in the mind of a freeper, the only true measures of living standards are A) the size of the discount box stores and the sheer volume of cheap plastic imported junk inside, and b) the amount of space in your home to house the aforementioned junk.


Here is a popular layout of a mid-range new home in Japanese suburbs by "Eyeful Home"

http://www.eyefulhome.co.jp/lineup/eyes/index.html









And these are NOT a million dollars. They are between $150,000 (country) and $300,000 (suburbs) unless you need to live in Tokyo, then it's a whole different ball of wax.

I can't read Japanese. Those prices are cheap, then again I live in Jersey.

in a suburb of a mid-sized city. Smaller in bigger cities and considerably larger in the countryside.

Again, I reject the notion that more sq. footage = higher standard of living. Manhattanites have much less space than your average person in a Dallas suburb. But few Manhattanites would want to trade their cramped co-op for a roomy split-level ranch in the cultural desert that is deep-red Texas.

Also, since many Japanese still sleep on futons on the floor, they are rolled up in the morning and put into a closet, leaving a lot of space that is wasted by a bed here.

No country is perfect by any stretch, and I had many annoyances living in Japan. But Japan is every bit as "free" as America, and certainly on a par, if not superior in terms of living standards, since so few people live in poverty.

much of its success to two Americans, in particular:

1) General Douglas McArthur.

Rather than give the particulars, if you haven't already, read this absolutely fascinating article (best to print it out, as its 14 pp long): http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=10&ItemID=4647

2) Peter Drucker, doyen of business gurus.

It's along time since I read about his work in Japan, after WWII, but I remember that, until he told them otherwise, they were convinced that all they could do was copy.

He also told them to always look to improve the product they were manufacturing, since it could always be improved upon; and he instilled a collaborative ethos, which he said was not transferable to the US, because of its antithetical competitive ethos.

For example, the landowners who had held huge parcels of land for hundreds of years were forced to give much of it up, subdivide it and give it to the peasantry, effectively equalizing incomes throughout the rural areas. Discrimination against Japan's lower caste, the etahinin was banned (although only in recent years has discrimination really been significantly reduced.)

And I would say that the Japanese were copying and improving upon western products long before WWII.

read that, too, about the redistribution of the land. It may be referred to in that wonderful article about poverty in the US. Well, of course, it applies to many other countries, as well, in varying degrees.

Don't you mean Edwards Deming?

I do. I meant to call back on that subject - although I couldn't remember his name. I believe he would have died a while ago, a very old man.

has legalized euthanasia. Do they prefer the American system of death through inability to pay for services. Witholding treatment is considered unethical in most of the world.

Availability of services does not necessarily mean everyone is going to run out and indulge in what our right-wingnuts consider immoral behavior. I would suggest looking at France as a comparison on all these charts...

Some TEEN statistics:




Abortion rates overall:


http://www.divorcereform.org/compare.html

Divorce rates in Europe are MUCH lower than in the United States, with much stricter laws regarding how long one must be separated for a no-fault divorce to go through: up to six years in FRANCE.

The lowest divorce rates in Europe include:
Italy--.6
Greece--.9
Spain--.94
France--1.98
the highest rate is in Russia--3.65

To compare to the United States, by state:
D.C. has the lowest rate at 2.3
Georgia comes in at 3.8 and 30 states have higher rates
with Nevada coming in at 6.8
In fact, our mean/median rate is 4.0

who don't treat those who can't pay, do they take Hippocratic Oath or the Hypocritic one? ;)

it just calls it 'health care'.

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First, I'm sorry to hear over-generalizing Islamophobia here.

Fact is, Sweden is quite racist society and has done many mistakes in it's "acclimatization" policies, which were and still are closer to assimilation policies, AFAIK e.g. Canada is doing much better with more enlightened policies. Even Finnish immigrants to Sweden (hundreds and thousands in 60's and 70's) were treated quite badly, so no wonder if Swedish people with different skin colour and religion from the main population are discriminated in the labor market and often face violence from racist neonazi gangs. Situation is not dissimilar in Finland.

Thing is, it takes several generations for different cultures to learn to live together in harmony, all the friction never goes away as you must be aware in America. On the positive side lot of studies have been made in Sweden about bilingualism, various and differing problems of first, second and third immigrant generations etc., and much of the policies are adjusted accordingly. It's a learning experience.

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I don't really like the word "assimilate" because, well see the subject line. 'Acclimatize' or some other word describes better what the process is or should be about. Cultures are not static, they adjust and evolve in contact with other cultures. Naturally every society has set of values that it by which it defines itself and is entitled to expect it's members to subscribe to or at least respect them.

In Finland we have e.g. Moslem minority that arrived here 150 years ago, Tatars, they keep their religion, many of their customs and try to preserve their language, those are only positive things, and in my memory there is no single mention of problems with Tatars. Just like with well-established ethnic minorities in US that preserve some of their culture.

The motto of European Union's Constitution is "United in difference", and I like that motto very much. We can't even dream about "assimilating" the various European cultures with long histories, and same goes for not only national cultures but naturally also for all ethnic cultures and other minorities. Not easy to hold that ideal, but IMO worth every effort.

Sounds fuckin' delicious. Where do I get some?

I hear this same Socialist stuff said of Canada. I like to throw it back at Republicans.

Canada has socialized medicine.

USA has socialized sports teams.

Canadians consistently don't agree to subsidize pro sports, and sports teams get taxed in Canada just like any other business. In the US they get a free ride and their stadiums paid for by municipal tax payers. But Repubs I've talked to don't usually think of it as socialism.

Funny how the concept of "greater good", alien to the Republican mindset suddenly comes out when you talk about removing corporate subsidies. Well... it's for the "greater good" of society that we give 4 billion dollars of tax payer dollars to the airline industry. The municipality pays for a football stadium to keep jobs, etc.

They're willing to express the "greater good" mentality for sports stadiums and jobs at the Little Cesar's vendors. But they don't like using the same logic for the greater good of education, public library's and medicine.

Interesting. But USA is JUST as socialist as any other country I know of. The priorities are in different places.