If fundies really believe conception is when life begins, why do they

celebrate birthdays and not conception days? :shrug:

that mom and dad were fornicators. :silly:

the only reason they exsist is because dad only had a used condom.

husband's business trip.

of the stork dropping them off. Remember, we live in a reality based community. They, on the other hand, live somewhere else.


It might also screw them up even more. They'd have to confront the fact that a sperm beat out all the other sperm to cause conception. It's sort of like the evolutionary thought of survival of the fittest.

It could also freak them out that several million others died on/or near that date. Each of them would have to have several mourning days for all their lost siblings each year.

a breakdown of abortion by political party. how much you want to bet those hypocritical sanctimonious asshats would win that sad tally hands down?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/2851283

Oct. 17, 2004, 1:27AM
Why abortion rate is up in Bush years
By GLEN HAROLD STASSEN and GARY KRANE

I, Glen, am a Christian ethicist, and trained in statistical analysis. I am consistently pro-life. My son David is one witness. For my family, "pro-life" is personal. My wife caught rubella in the eighth week of her pregnancy. We decided not to terminate, to love and raise our baby. David is legally blind and severely handicapped; he also is a blessing to us and to the world. Gary Krane is an investigative journalist.

We look at the fruits of political policies more than words. We analyzed the data on abortion during the Bush presidency. There is no single source for this information -- federal reports go only to the year 2000, and many states do not report -- but we found enough data to identify trends. Our findings are disturbing.

Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4 percent decline during the 1990s. This was a steady decrease averaging 1.7 percent per year. (The data come from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher Institute's studies.)


Enter George W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the opposite happened.

We found four states that have posted three-year statistics: Kentucky's increased by 3.2 percent from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by 11.3 percent from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9 percent from 1999 to 2002. Colorado's rates skyrocketed 111 percent. We found 12 additional states that reported statistics for 2001 and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6 percent average increase), and four saw a decrease (4.3 percent average).

Under Bush, the decade-long trend of declining abortion rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s, 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002 than would have been expected before this change of direction.

For anyone familiar with why most women have abortions, this is no surprise:

Two-thirds of women who have abortions cite "inability to afford a child" as their primary reason (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). In the Bush presidency, unemployment rates increased half again. Not since Herbert Hoover had there been a net loss of jobs during a presidency until the current administration. Average real incomes decreased, and for seven years the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation. With less income, many prospective mothers fear another mouth to feed.

Half of all women who abort say they do not have a reliable mate. And men who are jobless usually do not marry. In the 16 states, there were 16,392 fewer marriages than the year before, and 7,869 more abortions. As male unemployment increases, marriages fall and abortion rises.

Women worry about health care for themselves and their children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance now than before this presidency -- with women of childbearing age overrepresented in those 5.2 million -- abortion increases.

My wife and I know -- as does my son David -- that doctors, nurses, hospitals, medical insurance, special schooling and parental employment are crucial for a special child. David attended the Kentucky School for the Blind, as well as schools for children with cerebral palsy and other disabilities. He was mainstreamed in public schools as well. We have two other sons and five grandchildren, and we know that every mother, every father and every child needs public and family support.

What does this tell us? Economic policy and abortion are not separate issues; they form one moral imperative. Rhetoric is hollow, mere tinkling brass, without health care, insurance, jobs, child care and a living wage. Pro-life in deed, not merely in word, means we need a president who will do something about jobs, health insurance and support for mothers.

>>>What does this tell us? Economic policy and abortion are not separate issues; they form one moral imperative. Rhetoric is hollow, mere tinkling brass, without health care, insurance, jobs, child care and a living wage. Pro-life in deed, not merely in word, means we need a president who will do something about jobs, health insurance and support for mothers.<<<<

I've been trying for years. But they insist on seeing it as a "chicken-and-egg" argument, and are tied to the Pollyannish (and dangerous) belief that if abortion would be outlawed today, all these big nasty problems would go away tomorrow. It all starts with respect for life, dontcha know, everything else will follow.

It is no coincidence that the abortion rate fell (by some 200,000, if memory serves) under the Clinton years. That decrease has been totally wiped out under W. And when you look at the poor state of health care, wages, affordable housing, and the economy in general, you really don't need a PhD in statistics to see why the trend in abortions reversed upward.

If you feel you are in a desperate situation with an unwanted pregnancy, and that is compounded by an already desperate personal economic situation, what are you going to do? Here is where pro-life groups can make a difference, and some do. But the others, I'm afraid, are more interested in scoring rhetorical points than actually doing some good. They'll move heaven and hell to get the kid born, but then after that...well, he's on his own. And that is NOT being pro-life. IMHO.

Coud it be something else was responsible for the decline of abortions in the 90's?

1990 1,429,247
1991 1,388,937
1992 1,359,156
1993 1,330,414
1994 1,267,415
1995 1,210,883
1996 1,225,937
1997 1,186,039
1998 884,273
1999 861,789
2000 857,475


Only two things that would have a significant impact on abortion statistics happened about '97-'98

ru-486 ( emergency contraceptive ) became widespread
Calaifornia, Alaska and New Hampshire stopped reporting useful abortion data.

Take your pick as to which one is the real cause of the significant decline.

The general point though is that abortions were on the decline during the 90's is correct but to attribute the massive decline to better economic conditions is a case of statistics being used to tell a lie.


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

actively limited access to birth control, cut planned parenthood funding, and plans to further pursue this "moral" agenda in his 2nd term. I could scream.

What do they think will happen.

that you were humping like bunnies and you couldn't pin down the day.

:evilgrin:

My wife and I still mention the day we concieved. We were in a state park, camping in the RV, drank a few, went fishing, came back and rocked the rv for awhile. It was that night it occured. We even joke about it when we go to that park and drive by the spot.

We don't celebrate it with a party because the thing that stands out in her mind is the labor and delivery. I think she celebrates the birth date because that is the day she and the baby were seperated and became two people - the day she could touch with her hands what our love had wrought (ok, our sex, but we loved each other when we did it. Though I still joke that our daughter looks like a park ranger).

when they try to figure out the "sperm creation day"

then the EPA should be required to retest every single one of the 100,000 chemicals in commercial use for their safety on the developing fetus.
If it is found that a chemical injures the fetus it should be taken off the market.

But that is not they way they do it. Chemicals known to injure fetuses are sprayed all over yards and gardens, schools, daycares and homes. The choice to douse the neighborhood is strictly that of the user - not the ones exposed. In other words, current policy is to expose and damage fetuses with lifelong harm without regard.

Repubs really need to get it straight.

...if life begins at conception, the government retroactively owes millions of seniors an extra nine months Social Security benefits. Pay up, guys!

to take during the debates on the legislation to change SS. :think:

nine months earlier than we do now. :shrug:

I'll support it if they'll make it retroactive!

(Yeah, really holding my breath on that one)

An acquaintance of mine is stridently anti-choice and opposes stem cell research. She supports capital punishment and thinks the murder of 100,000+ innocent Iraqis has made us "safer".

She has two children conceived through fertility treatments. I don't know how many embryos were created (and destroyed) in the process, but it required several attempts.

Go figure.

...egg donation, surrogacy, and other "designer baby" type industries is the height of hypocricy.

Just like opposing gay marriage, but remaining silent on divorce. Uh, remind me again, which is the bigger threat to marriage?

fertility clinics for the exact reason of the loss of fertilized egss...as a christian I am not sure I get that one. They don't necessarily remain silent on the issue...rather they 'let it slide' when their fellows become desperate and decide to go this route.

As for divorce...same thing applies: make a huge noise about it and then quietly let it slide when someone if faced with going nuts or divorcing their partner.

theProdigal

I'd expose the hypocrisy as often and publicly as I could.

not enough caffeine yet...

just in case. After all, a large percentage of fertilize eggs never implant, or are miscarried so early that the woman never knew she was pregnant. That means that any sexually active woman might potentially have a deceased human being on her tampon or sanitary napkin.

Shouldn't that human being be shown the same level of respect that any other human being would?

"The Period Police will be by shortly to inspect your pads. Please have them ready for inspection...."

Pretty soon they'll be blaring this on megaphones down every street...

:puke: :puke:

Scary fucking things happening in this country.

My mom and have laughed about this one a lot! I suggest that all women of childbearing years actually write letters like this and SEND them to Bush and every GOP official who is rabidly anti-choice.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2004/9/1reproductiveopenletter.html

I doubt if the weed ever picked up a box of napkins or tampson for pickles.

No Christian name?
No fundie prayer service?
No cemetery plot?
No newspaper obituary?

None of the baove, just toss and forget.
What a cold and callous disregard for human life!

Most people cannot relate to those who are not like them -- don't look like them, don't live like them, don't act like them.

Personal experience:

Last Friday night my church (Catholic) had a card party that drew over 200 people. Before the cards started, people had something like $20 in "play money" that they could donate to four charities that had booths set up in the lobby. I was at the Catholic Relief Services booth. CRS is the main international Catholic charity that assists in helping the Third World become economically independent, as well as with emergency aid. The night's profits were earmarked toward Haitian hurricane relief.

I had posterboards and pamphlets that explained CRS's work. The literature did not feature cute, well-off American children, but those desperately poor -- hungry and wearing tatters. Not exactly photogenic, but the exact people Christ spoke of when he said "suffer the little children and come unto Me."

I knew I was going to be in for a long night when I came in and saw my station set up right next to the local pro-life group. Poster upon poster of cute, happy, well-off babies; dolls that showed the development babies in utero...just the thing to appeal to Catholics just coming off a contentious election. (Not to mention bowls of candy.) But, I had hope that most people would remember Christ's call to help the least among us.

Was I wrong. I had people stop at the CRS booth, look at the materials, and then LITERALLY turn up their noses and dump their play money into the pro-life bucket. Some walked by my booth with such contempt it took all I had not say something smart-assed that would have reflected poorly on both me and CRS. Some made a really prideful show of walking up to the pro-lifer, loudly congratulating her on her fine work, and then dumping all $20 into her bucket. I tried to see the humor in it, because after awhile I felt like crying.

Some people, however, were interested, including the associate pastor who put all of his money in my bucket because he (like me) is a strong proponent of fair trade coffee, a prime CRS concern. I had some who cheerfully gave me their money, and I thanked them profusely.
Some did not want to give their money to me, but the gang around the pro-life booth was so thick that some had to wait in line, and the cards were calling. So they turned and gave their money to me so they could get to their tables. (But I would take their money however I got it.)

Some wanted to know if the money was going to Florida. No, I said, CRS is an international aid group. "Well, you know," they said, "Florida is hurting too." Yes, I thought, but most folks in Florida do not live in tin and paper shacks that are underwater. Most make more than $10 a year, too..." Nevermind.

I was there for about 2 hours and drew about $300. I'm sure the pro-life group got close to a grand. The other charities were a Guatemalan school effort that has been established in the parish for awhile, and a local shelter for homeless teens. I don't think the teen shelter got much support, either...

It was an illuminating and depressing experience. It was not surprising, though, to see the cultural biases come out. So from where I sit, that is why most of us could really care less about these Iraqi children, who by the way, are just as much God's children as those precious babies at the pro-life booth.

Thanks for indulging me.

And how horrible. It makes me sad just reading it. Sigh.

Because otherwise my anger would prevent me from doing much of anything. I've learned from my service work that you have to find the little victories and not get caught up in the big frustrations.

I should have explained that the play money was later counted, and the church then wrote checks to each group for however much was put in their buckets.

I figure the $300 for CRS was $300 more than what it had before the evening started, and that the money will be put to good use.

Sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm sure the money you raised will do SO much good in Haiti.
I believe good works such as yours are multiplied in ways beyond our imagination. O8) I, for one, will make a point of buying fair trade products to honor your efforts.

Every time I get depressed about the lack of humanity some of my countrymen exhibit, wonderful folks like you give me hope. :)

We know that subject is taboo.

"Immaculate conception" aside.

We'd have to re-write the song and everything!

~~~~~~~~

"Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . originally the idea was rooted in magic. The working of spells for good and evil is the chief usage of witchcraft. One is especially susceptible to such spells on his birthday, as one's personal spirits are about at the time. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day."

And Horst Fuhrmann, professor of medieval history at the University of Regensburg, made this comment about birthdays: "The birthday celebration was in honor of one's guardian angel or god, whose altar was decorated with flowers and wreaths; sacrifices were offered to the god of festival, friends offered congratulations and brought gifts." Furthermore, he stated in the German newspaper "Süddeutschen Zeitung": "Great prominence was given the birthday parties held for the emperor, replete with parades, public banquets, circus plays, and the hunting of animals: spectacles disgusting to the Christians."

http://www.abcog.org/birthday.htm

:scared:

~~~~~~~~

The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of . . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune"

~~~~~~~~

Edited typo

It's not as though a bell in the uterus goes off

All it does is preach to the choir. People on DU will read it, and nod their heads in agreement, but they agreed with you BEFORE you even asked the question.

And the people who believe life begins at conception, which includes a number of Dems and liberals, will shake their heads at the futility.