Anyone who leaves America loses my respect.

America needs you. Stay.
If you're not happy where you live, move within America. Don't take your sane vote out of the country (unless you can vote absentee!)

Even if you can vote absentee, your efferts are needed in America.

Now is a golden time. Bush and his ilk have gained solid control of both houses. The nation will now see what unbridled rule by these idiots really entails.
America has been seeing it for four years, but a campaign of lies and confusion by republicans fooled enough Americans into believing all the chimp falsehoods. The next four years will serve as sweet hindsight, and 2008 will be a time for reckoning.

Hell....2006 will be a time for reckoning.

So if you leave, then I hope you will stay active online and vote. Then you keep my respect. Otherwise, I hope you die!

Not because of the election. I've lived abroad before and really liked it. Believe me, wherever I am, I will be voting.

As for 2006? We've said the same things for 2002 and 2004. I think it's time we all try a different mindset, instead of naked hubris.

Also, the "I hope you die!" comment is a little bit strong.

The next four years will be years of Americans becoming disillusioned with republicans.

Also, I hope you die was a joke. Loosen your belt.

Don't get too harsh-to me it also sounded wrong. We are not here to cast aspersions, but perhaps to do some good. And, By The Way, we're all disillusioned w/repugs.

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I'm not sure that the last election was clean, I don't know if we can do anything. I think it's getting close.

Bush was hanging himself before the election.....people felt it and he was going down.

He won through a campaign of false fear and intimidation and cultural wedges. These are hollow things, and people will react angrily when the dust settles and they see how they've been played.

The mess chimp created will only get worse, and his inept foreign policy efforts will only ampliphy his mess.

It would have been wonderful if John Kerry could have won. He is truely a whole man, not an image like Bush. However, the large silver lining is that bushie now has enough rope to hang himself and his corrupt republican party for a good long time.

And John Kerry can run again.

If you've ever watched Going Upriver, you know he's the person who should lead America.

New Freedom Initative, their heads will spin.

If they rigged this election, then what's stopping them from rigging the next? They've got the media behind them blasting out information designed to make everyone more docile and I think we are pretty much screwed. The rest of the world is tired of it and they're just going to shut us down and destroy us, because we can't go it alone. I mean people are citing him for moral values, and then ignore that we basically went into another country and killed thousands of people for no justifiable reason. And all because the TV says so, and really it's just mind boggling to me. Maybe I'm just now entering the stunned phase, I dunno.

the system (voting) is broken and there's no way to fix it.

For years people have said the only way to make change is to work within the system. It hasn't worked and now it's time to work outside the system.

would be packing now. It may sound like a lot of people are opening their eyes, but the only place where I can find anyone who questions Bush is here, on the internets.

<<Anyone who leaves Amerioca loses my respect.>>

Is that where tapioca comes from? :D

You are entitled to your opinion. But those of us who are planning to leave aren't making that decision based on what people think of them.
America is broken, and I don't think it can be fixed.
Sorry.

I don't need you to tell me I'm entitled to my opinion, thanks anyway.

Those of you who plan on leaving because of the Bush win are cowards. Weak people.

Perhaps America is better off without you.

When rightwing conservatism is defeated in 2008 maybe we'll see you again fairweather.

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One of my Profs in graduate school, an older Jewish gentleman, was an immigrant from Eastern Europe. (This was many moons ago.) He managed to escape the clutches of the Nazis on THE VERY LAST TRAIN to leave his country before the borders were sealed off. From there he managed to cross Europe and find his way to America.

Would the poster call this man a coward? My Prof was a brave and lucky man. He knew many who were not so fortunate and didn't live to survive the war and the concentration camps.

Good luck to you, NurseLefty. I mean that. Were I a few years younger I'd be on that train out of here myself. The handwriting is on the wall.

Practically everyone in France drank the Nazi kool aid and was in some sort of coma. There was no way to rally forces for the liberation without leaving, and De Gaulle did just that.

I really think that a free America lives first and foremost in our hearts. People will need to be free to do what they need to do as circumstances arise. Many of the settlers to America came here because they were leaving unworkable situations in other countries, and those conditions were very often not as bad as we are now facing here. Since things have been gradually getting worse, the danger of understating the danger is much greater than the danger of over stating it is. History bears that out as well. People are slow to recognize the danger and take precautions.

Things are tightening up seriously here now. If there are those who feel intuitively that this is the time, then who is to say they are wrong? There is less and less freedom every day, and the options and safeguards are disappearing.

Picking up and leaving is not easy, and I think we should presume that anyone considering it is not doing so frivolously.

I would not blame any minority person, any GLBT person, any handicapped person, anyone likely to be on a government list, and anyone with small children for considering all of their options. Also there are those who are struggling to get desperately needed health care and those who are unable to find employment or unable to work. All of these considerations could very well become much more acute very soon.

why would anyone give a shit whether you respect them or not.

with open, fair and honest elections? good luck. The bush regime owns the voting cos.

Next?

holy shit, i knew i had that thought in the back of my head, but i never really played with it much. thanks for putting the words together for me.

they privatized voting . . . well shit, couldn't have seen that coming

IN 2002!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yep

I gave everything I had to this election, my time, my money, my heart and soul, only to have it stolen again.

Now with the New Freedom Initative and the possiblity that they might one day try to drug my children, were're gone until America gets it's head together.

I love my country and want to stay but I love my children more. I have read enough history to know where the train of fascism the repukes are riding will take us.

I can not deal with that, my sanity can not deal with it, 1984 is my scariest nightmare and they are using it as their damn "how to" book.

Good luck and much love to everyone and my heart is with you, but unless Mr. Kerry decides to contest this election in time to actually do something about we are gone.

I have never thouht about leaving the US. Until now. I have two small children and I worry about their future. If I do go somewhere it will be because of them. We have started looking at immigration to Canada or New Zealand.

It seems like most americans would rather worry about NASCAR and scott peterson than about the real issues that affect them, and the MSM gives us nothing except what the corps want us to hear. enough.

As I've said before, we'll probably be in Mexico by April. Four generations of us. Bush has turned this country over to elitists who could care less about a decent wage, decent medical benefits, etc. His primary concern in war mongering and imperialism to help his corporate globalist buds. He cares less about the kids he sent to do the dying or the economy he wrecked.

it's really none of your business.

Don't post if you don't care. By posting such a hostile post, should I assume you're planning to move?

especially me

yet you complain about "hostility?!" :nopity: let me join with others who've said it: your respect is of no concern to me regarding any decision i might make. this isn't hostile...it's just the truth.

Funny, but you are te one who began with the hostilities! You were the one that said you hope people die if they leave. I don't care if you said it in fun or not. You SAID it in a thread that is considered flamebait period! How else do you expect people that?

... into thinking the USA is still some kind of representative democracy.

The presidential election was stolen twice in a row, and what do the majority of citizens do? They sit on their fat asses in front of the TV watching "Survivor."

It's a state of denial to think that working harder to get rid of these thugs is going to make a bit of difference. They rig it in broad daylight and have to gall to talk about mandates.

There are two choices -- stay and fight (literally), or flee. I want to live a little longer, so my choice has been made.

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I kinda doubt it.

So shut the fuck up.

that I have NO desire to see MY country hijacked and turned into a banana republic by the likes of the ill informed freeper types in their support of the likes of Bush. I'll withdraw my $ and my family will head for a more humane ground. Just like our European ancestors did. Bush represents Nazism and elitism.

Nobody blamed those who fled Germany in the 30s for what Hitler subsequently did. Staying would have changed nothing.

If I had dependents, I'd seriously consider leaving myself. As it is, I reckon I can stay until I'm forced to hotfoot it across the nearest border. But if my not-so-little girls were still little, hell, yes, I'd do whatever I could to protect them.

maybe some people figure given there were no mass strikes or large protests over the documented theft of the 2000 election (the Ukrainians managed after all) they have no desire to continue funding a unelected corporate-imperial conquest.

http://www.ushmm.org/stlouis/teach/supread2.htm

And here's an interesting little read, too, about some "chickenshit quitters": http://www.ubcpress.ubc.ca/search/title_book.asp?BookID=3937

"I choose to fight. You flee. Probably better that way."

Pretty big talk from somebody who's sitting behind a keyboard. If you truly have chosen "to fight," shouldn't you be out there actually fighting instead of making lame attempts to insult people on a message board?

The point is that you're not actually fighting. Actually fighting would involve risking your life to take on these criminals who have hijacked our country. They have the power in all branches of government. The fact that nobody has taken to the streets yet PROVES the fight would be the ultimate exercise in futility.

what are you gonna fight? how far are you willing to take it? you're gonna march? hope you like non-lethal projectiles for crowd control techniques. and while you're standing in your "free speech zone (pen)" hope you enjoy pepper spray.

or maybe you'll take it farther? how much ammo do you have? how many like-minded souls have signed on to your "fight"? are you willing to use terrorism to get your point across?

LOOK. lots of people did A HELL OF A LOT this last election cycle to make a difference and it amounted to practically nothing. jesus, the ukraine has more on the ball than we do.

and you know what, kerry PROBABLY DID WIN. but for all that effort, you still have a population of docile people who are more worried about buying consumer electronics and christmas presents than actually getting out there and doing something of substance.

they got it away with TWICE (three times if you include 2002) and they will continue to get away with it. your civil rights have been privatized and transferred to the private sector.

anyway, the tone in this country is growing more and more sinister. i can't blame somebody for opting out right now. our collective effort is useless if we continue to fight WITHIN the system.

you are not tolerant of the views of others. I hope you are enjoying your little troll here

"stay and fight (literally), or flee"

In many similar situations it wasn't a case of either/or. Many stayed and fought and then left when they had to. Others left, regrouped and aided the effort from abroad, and then returned stronger than ever at the right time.

During WWII French, Polish and Czech freedom fighters all fled if they could, later to return and fight. Had they stayed, they could have done no good. With the help of the British, they re-formed into effective units.

Most of us here are intellectuals. Any sane resistance movement gets its intellectuals out of harm's way, since they can write and agitate from abroad just as easily - more so often - and because totalitarian regimes always go after the intellectuals first.

There is more than one way to fight, and neither fighting here or fleeing is the "right" answer for all times and all circumstances.

dictator's shit list.

school on full scholarship to get away from the assholes running this country and the idiots who think it's okay.

There's a great, wide world out there, full of far more flavor and diversity than is found in these United States. And it awaits you. Go, live abroad, sample another culture, experience another language, fall in love, have some new and interesting problems--these are great experiences which you cannot have here. They will shape how you view yourself and your country for the rest of your life. Were I younger, I would do it all over again.

Don't let scolds who want you here for your "sane vote" deter you. The Democratic Party is seriously, probably gravely, broken. There won't be any "reckoning" as long as it's run by corporate chimps, and there is no sign of that changing any time soon.

Go. Live. Godspeed.

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this country is about to self-destruct. The debt burden alone is a huge problem. Liberals for the most part had little to do with the enormous national debt. I don't want to be forced to stay around and pay for the warmonger's pet projects, that have ruined this country.

What's your dog in the issue as to whether people choose to leave freely or not. As if anything like that needs to be justified, it's their personal reason. What's it to you?

De Gaulle left. Petain stayed.

Who was the traitor and who was the patriot?

Don't be too quick to judge others.

so after reading your post i felt compelled to change my plans.

/end sarcasm

don't believe your disclaimer. I think you meant that... joking on the square? That's OK dude. I understand your passion. I was happily living in Brasil but CAME BACK to fight for my beloved illusion we call "The United States of America."

I also understand those who want to leave. I will not admonish them as I may join the mass exodus for many reasons. Another reason I stay is that if the USA falls, it may take the whole goddamn world with it and I want to live - IN PEACE - in one of many special places I've been to around the globe.

Let's all work to save the Earth from these lizards, from within AND without.

I moved overseas because I refused to allow a penny of my taxes to go towards the tragedy in Iraq.

I still vote, register other ex-pats, donate to candidates and keep myself informed.

I only have one life to live and I don't see the purpose of going bankrupt, jobless and homeless in the U.S. for no reason.

If you can't respect that, it's clearly your problem, not mine.

so i guess i'm staying, end of discussion. :eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

I'm staying in America because I don't know where I'd move to, plus I don't have the financial ability to leave. I can completely understand the people who are fed up with the extremist minority which control this country and wish to leave for a different place.

By the way, 2006 will be a time for reckoning? I doubt it. I mean a lot can happen in two years, but it's possible we could lose even more seats in the senate given how nutty this country is right now.

You have issues and you know what I think about you. You've done nothing to diminish those feelings in fact they are stronger than ever.

I have already left the vapid vacuous shit hole called the USA. The air in Sicily is fresh the last time I was in the USA in May I felt like I was coated in slime. And I was in Homer Alaska for fuck sake.

Take the USA and shove it up your ass where it can befriend your head.

...Sapphocrat would lose your respect, if she left tomorrow bound for her life in Australia? And that is a pretty low way of thinking, considering Sapph and I have lived the last three years apart. Have only seen each other during the last three years for the grand total of 56 days all up. Haven't seen each other this year at all (yet.) As a lesbian, how much more is Sapph expected to give? She, like many other queers have gone without a lot over the years in order to help the dems push forward.

And then sometimes I have to ask myself if Sapph and I aren't together yet, because of how some here on DU would view her because she left the U.S. to actually have a life.

You so need to sit back and begin thinking for a moment about the thought that one puts into making the decision to leave their country. I know, I have done it in the past, and if I had the chance to remain in the U.S. three years ago I would have jumped at it.

It isn't an easy decision for anyone to make. It isn't like any one person on this board decided one night to just up and leave because the election was stolen. People were most likely thinking long and hard about this prior to the election, while others are just coming around to the realization that living under a dicatorship isn't exactly working in the lefts favor. Some times people need to get away to regroup, gather themselves, so they can begin to fight again.

You can make just as good a fight from abroad as what you can at home.

Your thread is totally unfair to those who do have legitimate reasons to leave. To those who need to regain their strength through leaving. And to those who are tired of trying to fight a battle that cannot be won, while thieves are being allowed to get away with election theft.

Oh and one last thing, what exactly pray tell, is your far-reaching plan for winning? WHAT do you expect people to DO? Please be specific.

which is where we're headed.

The evil creeps in the white house, the new Nazi Uhmurrikkkans cannot be BEAT. I spent 10 years warning people, drumming up support, and trying to raise the consciousness of the idiots in this country, and it didn't WORK.

So I'm outties. I don't do well in prisons, under torture and duress. There isn't enough people to overthrow this regime, or to stop them. No one will look out for me, so I'm looking out for myself.

We're off to italy by the way.

I feel like we've almost reached the end of all hope, and I envy those who are able to go. But for myself, I feel that would be tantamount to abandoning everyone, including my parents, my nieces, and my friends. No matter how terrible it is, I don't think I can leave them behind.

I think that is particularly true for men ages 18 to 34. There is going to be a draft. And every person must search their conscience for the correct answer. Let me explain.

If a little fellow with a strange mustache came up and told you to kill a Jew for the good of your country, you would know that he was insane. In your mind's eye, you would not think the honor of the flag was at stake, and that you'd best kill a Jewish human being in order to help this country prosper. Anyone who murdered for Hitler failed to pass the test of conscience.

If a little scrufty freak with a guitar came up and told you that you had to butcher a pregnant movie star to prove that you loved God, you would know he was evil. In your heart of hearts, you would not believe that the Great God Herself wished you to butcher pregnant women in a strange blood sacrifice. Anyone who commits murder for a Manson fails the test of individual conscience.

If the mayor of your city demands that the high school football team get weapons and attack the people of the next community, in order to protect "freedom," you'd know he was off his rocker. You would support efforts to have that mayor institutionalized, because he presented a danger to himself and others.

Today, we have an administratio being run by people who have failed every test of conscience. They have no more right to talk about what you should do in terms of patriotism than Hitler; no more right to speak about God's will than does Manson; and no more right to order you to murder or to suffer and die killing people in Iraq than does the mayor of the community you live in.

But they are going to tell you that you have to. You might decide to wait until then before you search your conscience. Or you might want to flee the crumbling empire now. The decision is yours, and you should not even consider anyone else talking about losing respect for you. That person isn't going to be in your shoes when that draft notice comes to your door.

Speaking of the draft, what happens to those that leave the country, if they are of draft age? Can the U.S. get them back so they fill their "draft duties?"

Like if I was a guy between those ages, living in the U.S. I would get the hell out as well, because I wouldn't fight in someones war for oil. That isn't patriotic duty. That is killing innocent people for the greed of evil people. But, once I fled, I would like to know that I would be safe from the draft in my new home.

It's not as simple as it was in the Vietnam era. I urge young men to begin today to study what are the best options for an exodus. For example, people should "network" and decide the most realistic options. Working to create a community in, say, Belize may offer a greater opportunity for a larger number of young US citizens than wandering alone in the desert.

Also, I agree fully with your point on the oil war. So I should add that if any stranger told you that your patriotism could only be manifest if you were willing to siphon gas from your neighbor's car for that stranger's benefit, you would know they were full of baloney. If they told you that you that the greatest form of patriotism would be to kill your neighbor for a quart of oil, you would know that the stranger was a liar and a thief and more: he was a cowardly dog who wanted you to do something he didn't dare do. Don't kill your neighbor for a quart of oil.

Because anyone who goes to Canada, for example, is still in America. Same thing applies to someone moving to Honduras or Brazil. It really irks me when Bush goes to South America and talks about his very own country, America. By the same token, it irks me to see you berate anyone who would consider leaving America when most of the people who are considering leaving the US have no plans to leave America. If you're going to excoriate people, try to be a little more precise with your choice of words.

Personally I think it's every American's duty to "outplay, outwit, and outlast" this theology. Hell I've even been taking the whole family issue more seriously because if people like me don't parent some kids America will soon be overrun by the trailer park.

However, my fortune cookies have suddenly started with much more frequency to tell me things like:

"You will soon be crossing the great waters"
"You will soon enjoy a new home"
"You are destined to set foot on all the far shores"

This MUST be some sort of conniving plot on the part of fortune cookie makers!!! :-)

I'll grant you the natural landscape, the spirit of volunteerism, and the willingness to give people second chances, but as for the rest, I'm pretty alienated.

I'm alienated from the American suburban consumer culture that seems to have swept over this land, and I feel as if I'm hiding out in my urban enclave where it's still okay to have something on your mind beside what television planted there.

Should I get all misty over our "democracy"? We've just seen that either a majority of voters have been assimilated to the Borg or the election was close enough to steal. The factor that brought the Ukrainians out to the streets is their sure knowledge that there's no way their incumbent could have won fairly. In our case, the number of Bush supporters is large enough and the press is silent enough that the average Kerry supporter has no idea that there could have been fraud.

Should I get all misty over our "way of life" when the gap between rich and poor has been growing steadily since 1979, when much of the much-vaunted "American way of life"--the trophy house and the SUV in the exurbs--is environmentally irresponsible, when millions go without health care or job security? When the Bushbots keep voting against financing schools? When the Bushbots don't care if our parks, roads, transit systems, or other infrastructure deteriorate?

Should I get all misty over the American flag when it's been used to head up unprovoked attacks on Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, and Panama, and to establish or prop up dictators in countless countries: Iran, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Haiti, Congo, and others?

What's keeping me here? Two things. I just moved a year ago, and so far, my urban enclave is providing a nice life. I'm not real eager to uproot myself yet again. The other is that my mother and stepfather are both over eighty.

But I would never criticize anyone who can and wants to leave. I understand where they're coming from.

Maybe you need to get out more, BUSHOUT. And by that I mean seeing more of the world.

And anyone who worries about my opinion is tetched in the head.

Add my name to the people you wish dead then, because I don't give a shit who you respect, and I'm getting the hell out of this failed republic as soon as I can. Enjoy the lynchings when they come to your town, and smile for me then: I'll be driving my Saab home from work to a home cooked meal in peaceful Norway, where people read books.

... citizenship in our Country before they flee - don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!

... Stay and fight or you have no principles. You'll eventually get fed up with and want to sneak back home anyway.

Who the fuck are you to tell me about my fucking principles?

... Years ago, when my kids were young and we couldn't afford the health care the "folks up the hill" could either. We made changes to address the shortcoming. I saved money by quitting smoking, my wife and I didn't buy sodas for or go out to movies anymore. Why? Because we loved our children and this country that much to make those sacrifices. Times are better now because of consistent frugality and strict financial responsibility.

... Want better health care for your family? Make some sacrifices, millions in the country are forced to. Why can't you?

"Years ago"...how many years ago? 20 or 30? Family health insurance at my partner's company went up 98 percent last year. 98 per cent.

The days are long gone when people can pay for health insurance by giving up cigarettes, sodas, and the movies -- extras that many of us have given up decades ago, in any case.

Everything is black and white... You're with us or against us. You're leaving, you better "denounce" your citizenship...

By the way, it's RENOUNCE...

And there are still 65,000 "draft dodgers" in Canada who left because of the Vietnam war... I guess they aren't fed up with the health care and freedom in Canada yet, huh?

:eyes:

Leaving is not really a viable option for me at this time for many different reasons. But the ability to dream about such a thing has kept me going at times. Knowing I have that option if things get bad enough has allowed me to think rationally and be proactive in addressing what ought to be done over the course of the next four years. Sure, if I was truly trapped and had no choice but to fight, it might give me a little more motivation. But I think my efforts would only be reactionary and wouldn't amount to much. It's fun to dream and imagine, although it is frightening to imagine how bad it would have to be to make me seriously consider leaving. For now I can just as easliy imagine things turning around and getting better.

losing a husband to death, a stepson to Iraq, this has been a dark year,,
for 4 years I fought..and I fought way back in the 60s and 70s also..Im tired, and its time for me to take care of myself. You fight, Im too tired.

I'll be back, I swear. And I doubt any other country would have me.

and have such narrow views, loses my respect! So that works for me.

I would imagine not.

As for me I'd blow this pop stand if I had the money and didn't have family that I would be worried sick about.

Not that I'd stop resisting these assholes but I'd do it from somewhere else.

though there's always the possibility that I am wrong, that you don't have any kids that might be drafted in the near future. That is my primary concern right now, for his life. And if that means I have to move to another country, so be it. I will not have him fighting and possibly giving up his life for imperialism. I would rather die first.

fighting for them. Deserters. The freepers laugh at you.

News flash: I'm a single, liberal Christian, ex-academic woman who speaks Japanese and likes classical and ethnic music and votes either Democratic or Green.

The freepers have been laughing at me for at least twenty years. It gets old.

is freeper-speak....I personally find it offensive, I wish people would refrain from that language here... :shrug:

The most freeper like post in this thread is yours.Go figure.

If it comes down to raising my children in an outright facist society, or staying and having your "respect", I'll take my children's safety.

Your post sounds so much like monkey-boy. "My way or the highway." Guess you've learned a few things from shrub?

Some serious shit will have to happen if there is ever going to be a fair election again. While I'm not going anywhere yet, I'm keeping my options open. And as far as you folks calling people chicken shit uh, where do you draw the line? When you are dead, or in the camps? I suppose you think the U.S. founders were chickenshit because they came here instead of staying and fighting. Oh and posting flamebait on a message board doesn't count as fighting.. sorry

As for your respect, who cares? I certainly don't.

One might argue about "Anyone who flees", but if you can't respect people working or studying abroad, then I can't understand your value system.

cowards blah blah blah true patriot blah blah blah I'm brave blah blah blah.

...loses my respect.

There are good reasons to leave, and there are good reasons to stay.

but, unfortunately, I'm stuck here in America and going broke every fucking day.

I'm broke and stuck, therefore I fight. That's all I can do.

If people fold that easily they don't deserve what America has to offer.

Bye. :hi:

Opening post is inflammatory,whether meant as a joke or not.