I take it all back. I'm sorry.

Since November 3rd, I've been venting about how much I hope Bush voters reap what they sow. I've said that I hope their jobs go to China, and that the dollar falls so much that their assets become worth practically nothing. I've said that I hope their brother or son or nephew or grandson gets drafted and ends up in an Iraq that is spiralling out of control.

Tonight, I saw a christmas program put on by local schoolchildren in support of an organization that supports terminal children's dying wishes. I enjoyed it greatly. But when the program closed with a very somber version of Silent Night, my thoughts turned (as they always do with that song) to the story I've heard about the German and British soldiers in the trenches during Christmas Eve of 1914.

All of the boys on both sides were desperately homesick, and so some began to sing Christmas carols. The wet, cold, fetid trenches they found themselves in on the most meaningful night of the year were so close to one another that those on the other side could hear, and soon both sides began regaling each other with their favorite carols. Before long, some began to leave the trenches, and very soon they had all met in the middle to celebrate Christmas together in spite of the stern warnings of their superior officers. For that one night, they were all just boys caught up in the same dreadful situation, lonely and in need of comfort. Afterward, they were brought back in line to return to shooting at one another, and the war continued for nearly another four years.

I always think of that story when I hear that song, and it compels me to look directly at what is really meaningful and important. Tonight I repent the hateful thoughts I've been harboring, thoughts borne of frustration from which until now I was unable to disentangle myself from. Tonight I return to my prior state of mind, a hopeful concern for others and for all of us as human beings.

Peace on earth, good will toward men.

rather than hatred. good for you
peace and love

I simply can't wish any of them well. They do not wish us well. I see no reason to turn the other cheek. Sigh.

Most of my family voted for Bush. They are not haters, and I believe most people are more like them than the morons who call in to Rush and others, or the neo-cons ruining our country. Try to remember that the press loves to quote Falwell or Dobson, because they think it sells, but never the decent cleric who tries to guide his people to tolerance and good will. Also, I beieve a lot more decent people voted for Kerry and against Bush than the rigged election told us.

Bush? The act itself is an expression of hate. I was just now thinking about your post as my husband was on a speaker phone with an acquaintance of ours who seems like an exceptionally nice guy. He is battling desert fever and is really sick but he is working his duff off for the benefit of our community this holiday season. I commented to my husband that I wondered how such a person could be a Republican. But as I thought about it, I realized that though he was nice to his community, he would be disturbed if we had a gay couple living in the neighborhood and they went to school with his children.( actually we do, but he doesn't know about it!) He might even be disturbed if a black couple moved next door to him. I don't know. He totally is against the illegal aliens and wants then cracked down on and out of our schools. But he is nice to his own kind. He would probably not be so nice to someone not like him. So , is he a hater? I think he is. It is not overt but it exists. I can't forgive them for voting their hatred of anyone perceived as "different" and this is exactly what the majority of the polls say is the reason people voted for Bush.And this is what they call morals.

We are all Americans, those who vote against our beliefs are still our brethren and are not cartoonish villains. They simply are motivated by other considerations. Most are not at all political, do not explore issues to the depths that you do and vote out of other loyalties not out of hatred.

The example you cite represents a tiny proportion of people and in no way represents voters of any great numbers.The failure of the Democrats is to be placed on their doorstep, and to change things we all must realise that self examination, rather than further separatist talk, further clownish pictures of GOP voters, which are nthing but nonproductive.

If the Dems are to recapture this nation they must do some serious soul searching and reorganisation.

election? We are to examine our motives as to how we allowed this election to be stolen?

And as for the Bush voters this does not represent a "tiny fraction" of the vote. I grant you most of them "do not know whereof they speak." but the results of their actions are the same. My point was it was a vote for hate whether they realized it or not. And the Democrats are to blame for many things but I can't blame them for the stupidity of the Bush voter.Sorry. No one made them drink the cool aid. They did that out of choice or intellectual laziness, neither of which sin is forgivable in my book. Particularly is such a sin of omission results in the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Remember , "ignorance is no excuse under the law", and it certainly isn't a viable excuse under morality.

What freakin choice, I must have missed the part of the election where Kerry gave them a choice...sorry.

As we have an election coming up in two years might I suggest that, when you are finished giving the finger to 48% of the voters out there, you might begin to think about how we may change their minds. You have two years.......a long time to hold that finger erect.

If we don't resolve this now, we are done. And it isn't 48% of the voters its 51%. We are the alleged 48%.And if you didn't hear a choice you had to be deaf. The SCOTUS alone should have been enough of a choice for you. We can't change the mind of a fundie. You would have to deprogram 51% of the nation, if those figures are accurate and that is dubious. And I am not interested in perserving Jesusland for the freaks. Which is all hoping for 2006 will do. I am sorry to be mean, but this is what I believe.

If you can be mean to someone who shares your same basic views, someone who agrees with everything but your methodology then what hope have you of gaining the votes of anyone?

As to resolving anything NOW, what have I missed? Things in a democracy are resolved via the election process you know. The natural order of things would be to deal with the factors that have caused the Democratic Party to wage the worst freaking campaigns, and in two Presidential elections!

As to hearing a choice I still am unpersuaded that I heard any such during the campaign. If Kerry mentioned SC appointments I must have been out of earshot. What I did hear from Kerry was that we should be in Iraq, we will remain in Iraq and he had some "plan" for resolving both our domestic and foreign dilemmas.Not good enough to separate himself from a seated resident, even one who is arguably the worst in modern history!

As to your obsession with "jesusland" well those folks are a small if vocal portion of the electorate and , should the Democrats ever put forth a clear ,concise and meaningful appeal to the voters of this nation,would be no factor whatsoever in the election.

So , if you are considering an armed insurrection ,well lots of luck with that, otherwise changing the direction of this nation requires electing those who share your core beliefs, compromising with others who partially share some beliefs, working to make the next two years productive ones vis-a-vis altering the nominees for office and the message they deliver.

If you can put aside your adrenaline for a moment and use less passion and more logic I'm certain you can offer no better plan, can you?

And I do have a better plan. We can no longer be moderate. Our message was blurred by the DLC centrist approach that was placed over both the Gore and Kerry campaigns, We must sharpen and define our message so people won't say they didn't have a choice.We can't do that by being all things to all people. We can't be "moderate" If that worked the repugs would be moderate and they are not.They went RW to draw the contrast.We must go left to draw our contrast.We haven't really won an election with a centrist message sine 1992.We only won that one because we had Clinton. Clinton could have run as a Satanist in the Bible Belt and gotten elected. The DLC centrist thinking lost us congress in 1994 .Clinton didn't have coattails enough to protect us, charm only goes so far. Despite Jeffords defection causing a brief control of the Senate, we haven't gotten control of either house back since. The DLC persist, even today, in thinking that we can reach for the middle and win. Well it is just not true. We also can't win being "nice". Tom Daschle is the living embodiment of that theory not working. BTW, did you notice that the Bush WH got rid of, as in savagely attacking to a loss, all the Senators that played ball with them? That were "nice and bipartisan? Max Cleland and Jean Carnahan?. Did you know that it had been inferred that they would be safe, if they were "nice"? Bet you didn't think I really had a plan did you? Anyway, to sum up, carve a definitive message left, take no prisoners , become a junkyard dog with your adversaries ,and win however you have to do it. We did much better with Kennedy, the Daly machine and stealing elections.We had Lyndon Johnson, who wouldn't take shit from anybody and blackmailed if he had to. We need to get back to basics and learn how to fight and fight dirty. Peace. But not moderation.
P.S. Both elections WERE stolen.

Seriously, there is little in that post with which I disagree frankly. Yet how to achieve this ,how to impact the Democratic leadership's thinking is still the $64 question.

Currently ,with McAuliffe stepping down, the leading candidates for the chairmanship of the DNC are centrist and lacking passion (they probably don't own an AK47 either).The right wing of the party is in firm control. I do not see how even a passion as strong as yours can dent this lack of vision.

For the last four years I have , here and in other places, postulated that ,with the abdication of the democrats, we no longer have a true two party system and have bent my efforts to investigating the possibility of working to bring the Green Party to a position from which it can ensure that the Progressive agenda is not lost on the government.One should note the rise of the German Greens for an example of such.

I realize that your zeal would not allow you to consider a strategy that will be so long in the making that some of us probably will not live to see it succeed.Yet I see little else, unless you know of a way to restore the Democrats to sanity?

I must note that your several responses here have all been very long on passion and outrage (and well they should be)yet where is the beef?
All the passion in the world, all the outrage one may muster is worth exactly nothing in the political arena unless it comes part and parcel with concrete planning.........show me the money.I foyu have a better concept I'm dying to read it, and ,should it prove to be more alluring than my own concept I will leap on board, weapons at the ready......so to speak.

My family are strong Christians.They give to the city mission,help friends and neighabors (our neighabors are black),and are good,loving people who are christian conservativs.They voted Bush for many reasons.They honestly think he's a good person.They don't see things at all like liberals do.Not everyone who voted Bush hates people who are different.I think some liberals are guilty of hatred of those who "think" different than them. I think we should try to Listen to the other side without being so quick to attack or accuse them of hate etc.

We can't be all things to all people. That is where the Republicans have us beat. They don't try to understand us. They don't cater to any "moderate" liberals that they might sway.Right or wrong , they stick to what they say they believe.That was what Bush had going for him. Cosistency. He might have been cosistently wrong but he was consistent. What is good for the goode is good for the gander. And personally, I don't want to understand how they think. I also don't want to understand how a serial killer or a criminal thinks because,as the saying goes, once you understand it , there is the risk you can become it.

like to talk politics with me (I am more well versed in the issues that's for sure) nor does she tolerate any criticism of the government. Now FIVE years ago it was different.

Naa...Bush supporters, even those in my family, have it coming. I cannot for the life of me understand why working class people support that man and Republican policies. Maybe what they really need a large dose of "compassionate conservatism."

Too many years of listening to the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Faux News.

When the WTC was blown up, my mother said we should ship all the Arabs back to the Middle East. "I probably shouldn't say this, but now you know why we put the Japanese into internment camps during WWII."

:(

When I brought up the deficit, she said, "We need to cut some of those programs."

Those programs? You mean like the ones keeping me alive and in an apartment?

"Who's going to pay for all the debt?" I asked.

"Well, it isn't going to be me," she said.

Poisonous! Poisonous!

How can I trust someone who thinks like that?

they've used it as a way to hurt me again.

every bit of it

keep the love alive....

I'm not a Christian but I do care about my fellow man. There is little to be gained in hatred and much to be gained in love, understanding, and fighting the good fight. I'm proud to be on your side! :hug:

so the real evil is behind the curtain

:-)

I don't truly wish them harm, but any bad events bring to me that German word, Shadenfrued(sp), a great pleasure in another's misfortune.
No Quarter.

Gemuetlichkeit.
When E.F. Schumacher spent some time in England, he wrote back to his parents that the English have no translation for this word, because they have no experience of the concept.
News flash: the world is full of hate - pass it on.

He was a quiet man and never talked about his war experiences except for one instance....I remember him telling us about a time during the war when he was alone in a city they were fighting in; (his fellow soldiers were ahead or behind somewhere) and he turned a corner and came almost face to face with a German soldier....They looked at each other and indicated in some way to each other that they would just pass each other peacefully....He said he was so tired of the killing....I've never forgotten this story, though it was told to me many years ago.

I and my family have grown poor over the past two years. I had some peace myself that at least we were not contributing to the economic well-being of what is now a world-dominating war machine. It is a grim reality, but I would rather raise my children in poverty than be a part of what I hate. This is my country too, but all the people we send to the grave won't have my placid self-serving cooperation to mock them.

I must join the crowd that says 'nay' to your 'concerns' for the fascist loving fundie flag wavers (cause that is what they are).

did it occur to you that IF the german people (the ones who were thinking) had stood up to THEIR flag wavers that there would have been NO trenches for the us and german soldiers to sit in on x-mas eve?

I would kind of like to avoid the whole damn trench. And to do that, we need REALITY to seep into our fellow fascist loving fundie flag wavers' lives.

*Also, I can't help but speculate when you say you think about the trench x-mas eve thing with the silent night song 'everytime' you hear the song. Might it be safe to say that you have only thought about that scene ever since HBO created Band of Brothers? In which case, please do your country a favor and stop paying for cable. If you pay for HBO, you pay for FOX.

Sounds good, though. Can't get HBO, but maybe they have it on DVD someplace.

In any case, I once saw a documentary (perhaps on TLC before it came to suck?) in which the event was recounted, and both Silent Night and Stille Nacht were presented in the re-creation of the scene. Since then, I have thought of that story when I have heard the song.

I don't mean to indicate to anyone that they should just make peace with their lot and lay down the political struggle. Far from it. Politics is just as important as it has ever been, if not more so where we find ourselves in the world today.

I only meant to suggest that we all take a moment to observe ourselves. Winning is important, but so is how you win and what the tactics that you can conscience using in the struggle cause you to become.

Consider how far out in the wilderness the Republicans were in 1964. I would expect to find that most of these people were genuine, sincere, and idealistic--much like we are today. But when they set themselves the task of making their way back into power, they neglected to pay too much heed to the way they did so. Along the way, these people's vision of a better country has found itself associating with religious fundamentalists, laissez-faire corporatists, military imperialists, all aided and abetted by the inevitable propogandists, e.g., Rush.

Is this the course we'd like to ride on the road back to power? Is power its own end? I for one would like to see REAL improvements in society, ones that benefit the people themselves. If power is all we're concerned with, we might well find our movement a mirror-image of the one we all despise. This is my point. Hang on to that hate, and you'll be listening to Lefty-Limbaugh in 20 years. Try to let it go and focus on positive change, and eventually the bastards will find themselves crumbling beneath the weight of a BONA FIDE populist grassroots movement.

You don't have to be a Christian to understand what I mean. In fact, I'm not one myself. But the aims of such a choice are quite consistent with non-fundie-filtered Christian ethics. Respect and equality for all, a trait that must be universal in a true democracy, is vital for the survival of a civil society. If we simply show the people this, they will see through the charade of those in power now.

Peace on earth.

Goodwill toward men.

You make some good points.

Of course, I believe that the only thing that will turn these people around is real direct suffering -- and so, the end of america as we liked to think of ourselves is the ONLY thing that will get these people's attention. Let the dollar tank.

It was the only thing that brought humility back in the conscience of the german peoples, and I am afraid it is the only thing that will bring it back in the american collective conscience.

The power mongering of the GOP leaders is a drug for their masses. A wonderful drug that trumps having your team win the Super Bowl.

At any rate, Band of Brothers is on DVD at Blockboster -- a 12 episode thing, and truly wonderful.

Make me believe in Santa Claus. Merry Christmas.

If you'd like to do some research on it (or just read a few articles) it's an extremely interesting event. There are a great deal of personal accounts which survive because the soldiers who took part in the truce on both sides were immediately removed from the lines because they didn't want to fight anymore after seeing their enemies face to face.

As the story goes, it was a German who initiated the cease fire on the evening of the 24th by walking towards the British lines unarmed and holding a pine sapling with some candles burning in it. As the truce went on for three days the high command became extremely frustrated and the lower-echelon officers couldn't restrain their troops.

One explanation I heard was that the enlisted men on both sides had more in common with their working class enemy counterparts than with their own officers, which in both the German and British armies were still largely composed of hereditary nobility.

The truce ended on the 27th (I believe), when a British officer finally shot one of the Germans. However, the fighting did not resume and the commanders on both sides were forced to pull back the units who had participated in the truce.

...that has always captivated my imagination. I appreciate the detail in your recounting, especially the bit about the British officer shooting one of the Germans to give the old war a kick start again. Seems things never change.

It's always Us against Them, but it feels to me like most people don't see who Us and Them really is. The thing is, these boys got it, and it was all the bosses could do to derail the peace and get things running smoothly again. I suspect that sort of epiphany about one's place in the world is more common than we realize.

don't think I've heard that story before.

Don't be nice to nasty people.

,...stand up to those who wield hatred and division.

Hatred can be a wonderful, thrilling emotion, especially if you feel justified about it. But it's too easy, and it's wrong. I sometimes "hate" the repubs, and will let myself get off on that feeling for a while.

But ultimately you have to overcome your hatred and channel your energy into more productive emotions. Otherwise it'll eat you alive.

Firstly, one may convert nastiness to niceness by such action.
Secondly being nice to an asshole is the best way to further infuriate him!

Are you suggesting that I said to be nice to Bush? I hope not 'cause I sure did not. My recommendation was to cease villifying those who voted for Bush, as , aside from a hardcore few, they are normal decent people who did not receive a coherent message from the democrats.

As for that waffling piece of garbage, Daschle, Im glad he's gone!

to the Republicans and very "fair' to their side. I think Daschle was a very "nice" man, and he would be nice to those Bush voters who "appear" to you, to be normal decent people who did not receive a coherent message from the Democrats. Hie being " nice" to those people finished him off. And they will finish us off as well if we are "nice " to them. Sorry.

I refuse to hate, to tar all people with one brush. People are far more complicated than that. Yes, there are some real haters out there: all you have to do is listen to the radio. And some people do or say hateful things without realizing how hateful they are. Ask any minority how many times they have felt this. People can perceive themselves to be good people, trying to do what is right, and still do hateful things to others. There are some who are weak and soak up the words of the radical clerics, but they themselves are not intrinsically evil. Misled, uninformed, but not necessarily hateful.

But refusing to hate is not the same as being weak. We can be strong, can drive these evil people out of our government without resorting to the too easy emotion of hatred. I will not become like them.

...Barely time to wait.



Plenty of time to stand up for what's right, without apology.

Hate is hard to maintain and eats you up from within. Which doesn't mean there isn't cause and need for righteous indignation, particularly now.

But that, in my book, isn't the same thing as hate.

we have to convince...its our fellow voters......Frankly Im glad Daschle is gone.....

I agree 100% ,thats what I like to call BeGoodology.I love nice people(just don't ask me what I think of bad folks):mad:

Right now I'm into apathy towards people who can't vote in their own interests and are too stupid to see through the RW bullshit. Why worry about people who don't care about themselves?

need to experience first hand what they voted for. They need to understand first hand what they voted for. Otherwise, they will keep fighting for more hate and suffering, as long as that hate and suffering is brought on someone else and not them.

Send in the tanks and drop the bombs so that everyone may know Jesus Bush

I heard the same story as a child. Yes, the beauty of the story is poignant and timely. Yes, it's a beautiful thing to come to the realization that under it all - under the mantle of political trappings, the mask of divisive policies, the artificial lines in the sand - we're all just members of the same family: Humanity. And yes, the journey of forgiveness must always begin somewhere, with someone.

However, that same journey of forgiveness ultimately only serves a constructive purpose if all the parties are aware of the same ultimate Truth about themselves. Turning it into a selfless act of symbolically turning the other cheek solves nothing, in the end. And in a case like this, it simply serves to increase the weight of the steamroller being driven over the side of Justice.

Peace is only peace when there's been compromise. Forgiveness, especially here and now, simply won't do the job.

sheesh ... i certainly can understand your compassion for your fellow humans ...

but the neo-con policy of eternal war is not human; it is inhumane ... i hope every bastard who supports the genocide in Iraq reaps their just rewards ... they'll not be receiving an ounce of compassion from me ...

wishing good will for all when we are confronted with such evil is naive ... it's where the "turn the other cheek" crowd and I part company ... do you think that "giving bush a christmas hug" will imbue him with greater humanity ?? these are evil people out to serve their greediest instincts ...

as for those misguided souls who voted for bush, there is perhaps more room for compassion ... but perhaps only through their suffering will they learn what they have done ... and in the meantime, they've cast the rest of us into darkness ...