Last worst place: Where wouldn't you want to live in the U.S. and why

For me it's Vegas. The place really creeps me out. Most importantly, there's no water there. Mississipi because of it's politics, same goes for Alabama.

Oh man.. I am so with you on Vegas. I would shrivel up and die with all the phoniness.

Clark County is THE liberal Democratic part of the State.

You have obviously never experienced L-I-V-I-N-G here. It is not at all what the tourists experience.

It's like having Waikiki represent Hawaii.

Not liking the low oven temperature heat is one thing, but I live in only one of many great communities that surround the valley outside the "strip".

My vote is for fucking Texas. It's the undeserved arrogance of the general populace is utterly revolting that does it for me.

The hubris of the legislature in that state amazes me. It should be allowed to concede and be relegated to third-world status. That, or, they give Mexico a great opportunity to take back their land.

That state would starve without northern welfare, and they neglect the kindness of the country they helped betray. It's a sad state of affairs, it seems to be the largest welfare queen, now that it doesn't have slaves supporting its large ass.

But, as always, I encourage the liberal-minded to join us, before the theoretical succession happens.

I have been exiled here for two years. The last time I see this wretched place can't come too soon.

Now, two Repubs who lost their seats in the recent election are taking their case to the State Legislature, which can, believe it or not, VOTE TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION. That is right, the Repig dominated state lege can vote to install their cronies over the actual, certified voting results.

Anyone want to bet they won't do it?

but that is bad enough.

Oh, Dallas?...now I understand. That's not Texas. That's 'North Jesus' (what we call it, down here deepintheheart). Or, 'Babylon'.
I went to photography school in Dallas. When I left, it felt like I was escaping.

My family has been in Alabama since before there was a United States, and we ALL (well, except for my crazy uncle who moved to Baltimore, and that weird cousin in Atlanta) are at least Democrats, if not lifelong union members and progressive, active members of the community for 200 years.

Of course, like every other place, some things about it were bad, but for some reason the people in the North saw SO much wrong with their neighbors to the South that they HAD to come down and tell us how to do everything better, so much so that many problems in their OWN community were conveniently ignored (yes, I'm talking about segregation and racism - but remember the bus riots in Boston?). Apparently, though, something down here was attractive, since not too long after that, our populations started booming with an influx of emigrants from the North and Midwest, eager to take advantage of the cheap labor and less-than-rigorous labor laws, as well as the nice weather and low cost-of-living (sound familiar?). In time, what had been an earnest but struggling progressive movement was swamped by the new money (and yes, there is HUGE money in Alabama, just not very equitably distributed since, oh, about 1861, and even then, it wasn't very, very good, although it *was* very high - like, in the top 5 in the US, IIRC - even after excluding the near-mythical "huge plantations" - yet another ignorant stereotype that has amazing staying power).

As a one-time student of Faulkner (and if you want to get a glimpse of understanding about the South, you should read two books: "Absalom, Absalom!," and "Alabama: History of a Southern State"), I think he got it partly right: the South WAS like a new start (the Europeans got here first, not Massachusetts or Virginia, or even Florida), but not just once - there have been several tries at Eden here, and each wave has crushed the previous one; each wave takes generations to crest, and the survivors - the progressives - seem to get beaten back by the same old greed and ignorance, with help from outside.

So, yeah, stay away - if possible, spread the word and tell everyone - everyone!, including such notables as Karl Rove (Colorado) and George Bush (Maine/Abaddon) - to just mind their own houses first. I'll be glad when the *current* wave of carpetbaggers slows to a mere opportunistic trickle. Maybe then *my* kids can afford a house in nice towns without competing with rich retirees from Ohio and Michigan, and maybe I can get to one of our amazing beaches if those retirees' kids sell their condos. Maybe they can go back to conquering other impoverished regions as they did formerly - I hear South America is developing quite an uppity attitude about US debt programs; maybe they need the smackdown the US concocted and perfected under the auspices of the Civil War. That really fixed all the things the "Union" states had problems with, didn't it?

In all seriousness, the Civil War looks more and more like the early first draft of the wars that have marked the rise of the US since 1865, so maybe you can apply to the US South some of what many posters think about our current sitaution in Iraq, and extrapolate 135 years into the future; that should give you some idea about why many Southerners not only don't care that you don't like what you think is The South, and why many more of us will be glad when your neighbors stop coming to tell us how bad it is here.

However, what I find hard to believe is that people are actually moving, by their own free will, to Alabama? I want to meet some of these "winners".

yuck.

Nevada or any of thos "DEEEPPP SOOWWWTTTHH" states.

New Orleans?

Fuck 'em

here i sit
cheeks a-flexin
about to give birth
to another texan

trust me, i live here, the fucking place is a hell hole

Couldn't agree more - I have lived in Ewwstunk for far longer than I care to admit, and I despise it more with each passing nanosecond. Unfortunately, I'm too f'n broke to move at the present time. After I finish school, I plan on making this place a mote in the proverbial rearview mirror at warp speed.

live NEAR beaumont, not even within the ghost town proper.

broke doesn't even begin to describe my situation.

i'm from chicago and am trying to get back up there - the real world.

yes, this place is sickening.

:pals: from one broke person desperate to get the f out of TX to another!

My situation is actually somewhat worse than I initially stated. I live in the industrial-strength armpit of Ewwstunk (aka Pasadena). In a trailer park. In a travel trailer (living in a mobile home would be sheer luxury at this point - oh, to leave the water running while taking a shower!). For going on 6, count 'em, six years. The "shelter and count" sirens add an exotic touch to the locale - in case of a toxic release from one of the dozens of nearby chemical plants/refineries, you are supposed to:

1. Immediately go indoors (no prob' for me, there all the time anyway).

2. Shut windows and turn off A/C. (Easy enough).

3. Bend over and kiss it goodbye. (In my case, I'm planning on placing a quick call to my next-of-kin, just in case.)

Lovely place we live in, innit?

southeast texas is an armpit (houston included, the joke of a city that it is).

what's killing me here is lack of transportation. i live in similar circumstances as you and the nearest thing to me is a major u.s. highway. it is a few miles to anything around here and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE TO WALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

which kills me because i am a radical, fundamentalist pedestrian.

it's getting to the point where i'm thinking about hitching down 10 to new orleans or hammond, la (wherever the 55/57 junction is) and then hitching north from there.

i figure if i'm gonna be broke, i at least want to be in a place where i can join the fight for survival instead of trying to hustle rides to look for nonexistent work in this backwater.

it gets me down a lot of the time.

Nice to meet ya - how I long to live in a place where everything is within walking distance and finally rid myself of that money pit otherwise known as an automobile. I do walk to the store, post office, etc. on occasion, and not only am I taking my life into my hands as there are not always sidewalks, but the "trash with cash" aka plant workers that heavily populate this town stare at me like I have just beamed down from Planet Zorx as they blow by me in their duallys and Hummers.

Ugh.

i was going nuts all this time thinking i was the only one from Planet Zorx by the way these people look at me when i walk down the goddamned HIGHWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good to meet you too.

HOW, WHY?? If You don't mind me asking..Big change!!! All of my family live in Beaumont, Buna, Evadale, Vidor and Kirbyville!! I feel for you!!!

MUST...RETURN..TO CHICAGO.

I despise Texas.

Give him an enema and put him in a shoebox.

Where do you live?

just that i live in a southern Red state and everyone around here is (insert insult word here)

I don't make judgement calls on where people choose to live, but personally I wouldn't want to live outside a city. I like where I live now, it's large enough to have a few nice things, but I wouldn't mind moving someplace bigger.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

I've lived in Boston and London, but now wouldn't want to live anyplace but where I am.

I'm in Austin now, which is a little slice of heaven compared to Houston. We're a blue city in a red state. Wonderful night life. Always lots of music, movies, art happenings going on. It gets damn hot in the summer, but 9 months out of the year it's really very pleasant, weather wise. I couldn't live someplace very far north, where the days get really short in the winter. You can have your snow. I need sunshine!

for a fairly large city (I've lived in large cities and never ever want to again), it's fairly tolerable. :D

and it is politically "balanced". Travis County went for Kerry, but Williamson County, which includes the 'burbs to the north, went for Bush. It's also quite conscious about the environment. It was the first city in Texas to have a recycling program and Austin Energy has a very decent solar rebate program.

I partied there on a cross country back home and had a great time. People were really cool there. I loved it.

ugliest landscape in the entire country. Used to be the poorest county in the US until they put some casinos there. It's also the birthplace of the blues in the US. And if you visit this area, it's easy to see why so many blues songwriters lived there.

with Houston running a very close second.

No explanation needed, I think.

and I live here. Sorry, Texans...

Eagle rock is a good local.

For me, East CA, Most of Jesusland. The east coast because of winter discluding florida.

Not Glendale though. Glendale sucks.

Glendale is brimming with superficial mall-brats and acne-faced teenagers who are under the impression that owning expensive cars somehow makes them pimps.

My hometown is a piece of shit. Are you from Glendale?

I live in South Mississippi and am acclimated to the climate. Although it is a red state with not much in the way of income and education, the geography and wildlife are excellent. I have no kids and I don't have a need for an income and I live 50 miles from New Orleans. I'm happy right where I am and blue states don't need my political energy, Mississipi does.

...and just salivating waiting to get back to NorCal.

And i bet a ton of people dont want to be from Colorado right now.




Raider Nation!!

Hey, bro, whenever you get home - I'll be parked right underneath Hegenberger, across from Coliseum BART. I'll have the barbeque smokin and the brews cold. We can score us some seats from the brothas on the footbridge, grab programs from the barkers on the east side promenade there, outside the club entrance. We can stand there & yell "RAAAAAAAAAAIDEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRS" at the top of our lungs while we pound our last beers, waiting on the ramp to get in...

Like I've done, oh, say, 60 times in the past 9 seasons since the boys got back to town.

Ooops, am I rubbing it in? Best come home soon!

Oh, and was Monday night FUC*ING SWEET OR WHAT?!?

The autumn wind is a pirate

...if Im a girl?

I love the football avatar assumption that Im a dude.

Never have I seen a better football game.

Champ who? what? HA!
RAIDER NATION!

That sort of takes up the middle of America for me as places I drive through as fast as possible. I'm more a trees, mountain streams and glacial rocks sort of person.

It's hot, flat, ugly and crime-ridden. I lived in Fresno for awhile and it sucked ass. It stayed over 100 degrees until the end of October one year. I hate the heat!

I love the foothills and mountains here, but they're infested with freeper types. The coast is wonderful, but I don't think I could afford to live there. I've been wanting to live somewhere on the coast for years.

ways to live here cheaply if you have a job. A lot of the ranches around here have cheap rentals on their properties like mobile homes or trailer spaces. It's best to get a job first and they do pay less than in the cities.

Yeah, that whole San Joaquin valley is hot and depressing isn't it? No wonder it breeds freepers.

of California are infested with freepers.

I live in the hills of Madera county and this is the biggest bunch of hicks I have ever seen in my life. Worse than Redding, even.

It's like the bastard love child of James Dickey and Stephen King.

(On edit: I wouldn't say it's the worst place in the country by a long shot. I lived in LA and I really liked it... lots going on. Utah is a state that is pretty, but the Mormons creep me out. No offense if anyone's a Mormon, they're just not inclusive of non-Mormons in much of Utah.

The middle great plains seem pretty bleak. I really can't imagine anywhere from South Dakota to northern Texas being a good place to live.

The absolute WORST though is Suburban Hell, USA. I was in Fresno a few weeks ago for work, and I went into a subdivision that was a DEAD RINGER for a neighborhood I canvassed in Altoona, Iowa. It was totally horrifying. Felt like a bad acid trip. Major twilight zone time.

And the f*ing strip malls. Half the cities and towns in the country (including mine) have the same depressing row of strip malls, fast food, big box stores, chain restaurants, endless asphalt parking lots, anonymous banks.... such a downer. Olympia, Washington; Sacramento, California; Raleigh, North Carolina; Des Moines, Iowa; Myrtle Beach, South Carolina; Anchorage, Alaska; Tucson, Arizona; Santa Clarita, California... and Fresno.

Big towns, little towns, big cities, little cities.... it's all the same shit. The town I live in has 13,000 people, tucked in the mountains near Yosemite. What do we have here? A small handful of struggling local antique shops and restaurants, and McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, A&W, Dominos, Taco Bell, Foster Freeze, Starbucks, Rite Aid, Long's, Raley's, Von's, Sears, Home Depot, B of A, 6 motels, 8 auto repair places, 5 gas stations, and about 87 churches, all in about a five block stretch of the same damn highway that serves as our main street. That's downtown. And tourists and freepers. They call it progress when a small town gets a McDonalds, and they think they've made it when the town gets big enough to have a Wal-Mart. F*ck progress.) /rant

There,now I feel better.

that we occasionally just name them and take them to the vet to make sure they have their vaccines.

I hear ya!:D

segregation statutes has gotta be top of the list.

..and add "(ex)-Judge Roy Moore" as another reason its f*cked up

always hated that state.

another place that gives me the creeps. I lived in Ft. Lauderdale for a few months and hated it. I spend a fair amount of time on Sanibel and every time I have to drive from the airport to the Island it seems uglier.

don't want to go back there now, & I live in Kansas, for Christ's sake!

My dad seems to love it, however. He said the taxes are low.

Too many "god-fearing", unreasonable types there.

Before anyone accuses me of making judgment on places I have never been to, I must say I LIVE in a red state in one of these regions.

Help me move? :7

but the southern ones especially...
I HATE nascar, country-music, and Southern accents REALLY bug me- they really make people sound ignorant, imho.

as a person of color, I will think twice before moving to a red state. I wouldn't subject my children to it.

I have a southern accent and I am not like the majority here in Mississippi. This is not a good state to live in. Change scares the people here to death. Even if it is positive or will save or improve lives. I will only say nascar is boring.

As far as accents go, that is something that really cant be helped for the most part. I find a heavy northern or southern accent tends to make people sound ignorant. I am sure I am wrong about that but that is the way it seems.

See above post.

I hate that city....I am from the South, and Portlanders totally weirded me out.

It's just as bizarre as hell that no one that I have ever met seems to notice the racism in that state...and the city of Portland...until I start pointing things out to them....like, ummmmmm why are MOST of the black people living in the BAD sections?

Where are the blacks in the other towns?

The ONLY person I met out there that even acknowledged a problem was a black woman at a movie theatre.

Hell...at least North Carolinians ADMIT there is a freaking problem in this state---and I meet MANY that are trying like hell to deal with it head on.

In Oregon it's more like "no, we're not."

Bizarro land. Glad I am gone.

BTW--for the Oregonians that want to challenge this post...go find the hate crime statistics for your lovely state. It's not pretty.

Stephanie

talking about moving to OR from NC just over the weekend. Guess Portland needs more investigation since we were thinking there or Eugene.

Eugene...the I-5 drug corrider from HELL!!!

Go look at Seattle instead...

Oregon is WEIRD.

I don't care who tells me I am nuts on this thread. "Liberal" doesn't mean not shaving and wearing boots all the time, folks.

And I live in Eugene.
It fucking sucks.

I graduated from U of O in 94. Since then, I've lived in the south.

You don't know suckage. Trust me.

I bet you a nickle some Oregon luvin DUer is going to post on this thread..."I have black friends in Portland."

Take my word for it; most racist place I have EVER seen. Like I said, I am a SOUTHERNER...and not a young one either!

Stephanie

I'm taking your word for it. We'll check into WA. I can't take a place any more racist and bigoted than I'm already in.

Just out of curiousity, what part of the state are you in?

The middle part of the state SUCKS for racist crap....I am so embarrassed by it---but, I grew up in Charlotte, and it doesn't seem so bad to me there.

Stephanie

PM me if you want!

You couldn't have known it when you were just passing through, but Oregon once had major KKK activity, and Portland had legal segregation until quite late in the game. (Oregon Public Broadcasting did a documentary on this, and they showed photos of businesses that had "No Colored" or "White Trade Only" signs on them.)

On the other hand, the pattern of black people all living in one part of town is, sadly, not unusual for Northern cities. Portland, because of its reputation for racism, has a much smaller black population than most cities its size--lots of Asians and Latinos in evidence, but not so many African-Americans.

In rural Oregon, where I lived for seven years, there are no black people to speak of, so the racists go after Latinos. One of the saddest stories I heard was from a Spanish instructor who in her off hours worked with local teenagers affected by parental drug or alcohol abuse. She told me that some of the Latino kids told their classmates that they were Italian or from the Grande Ronde tribe up the road, anything but Mexican.

However, Portland is a staunch blue island in the libertarian-Republican sea of rural Oregon, and they've done a great job keeping their downtown vital and operating one of the best public transit systems in the country. (The new light rail line will help make suburban jobs available to inner city residents.)

Portland definitely has its good side in other areas: a great jazz scene, lots of independent bookstores, funky little neighborhoods full of funky little stores, some fine cultural events (I miss Chamber Music Northwest and the Portland International Film Festival), friendliness to cyclists and pedestrians (I was on the city's Pedestrian Advisory Council), and one of the few urban school systems in the country that attracts 80% of school-age children.

I enjoyed living there for ten years, but eventually it was time to leave, for a variety of reasons. I'm in Minneapolis, which also has its racial problems. I've particularly noticed a peculiar variety of environmental racism, in which affluent areas are "renovated" with cute street lamps, bike racks, and brick sidewalks, and poor areas are "renovated" with big box stores (in styles that are tacky even by the generous standards of that type of building) surrounded by windswept parking lots.

have racism and Republicans. I have decided to ignore them. Why should they own all the nice places? College towns are more liberal unless it's a religious college. Have you looked at Corvallis?

Corvallis, OR.

Here are the stats for that place:

http://eugene.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

I should have some REAL fun, and look up the stats on Bend, eh? Or maybe Baker City? Perhaps Bandon?

concerned the freepers can have it or any part of Oregon east of the Cascades, but the pretty and forrested areas need immigrants of all colors to start moving in there. To tell the truth I found a lot of Chinese and other Asians on the coast of Oregon. They were part of the population or don't they count because they aren't dark enough for you?

No...there aren't enough of them outside of the gas pumpers and restarant workers.

Snotnosed Japanese business men and their bitchy little wives don't cut it for me either.

What else do you have to offer?

Stephanie

Tolerance cuts both ways. Hating someone because they are white doesn't seem very tolerant to me or because everyone in a certain place is white because of past history. I mean that's like someone going to Africa and saying the Africans are intolerant because everyone is black.

And Japanese business men and their bitchy little wives don't cut it for you? I have a lot of Japanese friends and most of them own businesses. I find you very insulting and intolerant. Something about glass houses?

I am white...in fact I am so white, it's GLARING. My ancestors in the not so distant past owned slaves.

I am also a 7th+ generation North Carolinian.

What I mind in Oregon is the ignorance of the racial inequality of that state....the ignorance of the history right back to ohhhh say...1995.

I mind the bliss ninny horseshit that passes for liberalism in that state.

As far as the Japanese businessmen are concerned; I used to cringe when they walked into my bar...no matter how good service I gave them, they tended to pull that misogynistic finger-snapping attitude with me...glass houses nothing. They treated women like shit in the bars--and yes...that is a generalized statement.

I wish I had the inclination to look up stats in Japan about women being sexually harrassed--but, I am not in the mood.

It's pretty obvious that you want to gloss over statistics..whatever. As far as staying where I am; I will...thank you very much. At least in the South there are people willing to take racism and our history head on, as opposed to the Oregonians that want to pretend like it doesn't exist while the number of hate crimes continue to rise.

Stephanie

my customers came from all over the world. Believe me the Japanese didn't have a monopoly on misogynistic. I even worked occasionally part time in a Japanese restaurant. The owner, a woman, is a dear friend of mine so I helped out occasionally when she was short of staff.

I was also a kind of a pioneer. I was one of the first women to break into the bartenders' old boys club from waitressing. The worst misogynists were my fellow co-workers, other bartenders who were male. I put up with all of it for the tips, which I am sure you also do.

A lot of people don't know their recent history because no one bothers to report it or teach it to them. I really don't understand bigotry against a group of people just because of what they look like or where they came from and that's what you seem to be doing. I can't change your mind. You have it already made up.

discriminate. It is not just one or the other that is guilty.
I am white and there were 3 black kids in their jammies waiting in a parking lot while their mom was inside. They were about 3 and 5 and 10. As I was walking by with my son they called me a cracker and said other racial slurs. It did not bother me so much but I had my young son with me and I did not want him to hear it. I realized the kids were taught this probably from an adult. I dont blame the kids at all. THey were just parroting what they had heard.

I have not had anything like that happen again. The mother came out shortly and seemed to be a nice and well groomed lady who had a quick errand to run and left the kids in the car while she ran a quick errand.

I have heard of black women fussing about white women around here but they hushed when they saw me coming. I heard very little of what they said.

I am sure whites have racial comments that many would take offense to. I dont hear it often but I dont hear many comments from either race myself.

Come and see for yourself. No, it's not perfect. But I've spent my share of time in the south, and it sure as heck isn't any more straight on there. In fact, I'd say it's just the opposite.

There's a lot of skins in the Northwest, particularly eastern Washington, rural Oregon and most of Idaho. A racist is a racist is a racist, but they're better organized in the NW than they are down here. Of course, there's much less tacit acceptance of racism in Oregon than in the south.

I grew up in Oregon and went to school in Eugene. The weather is mild, but it gets cloudy around October 1 and it stays that way until mid-June. My first roommate was from Arizona and she couldn't take the rain. One day I came "home" to our dorm room and found she had painstakingly painted a poem on her wall:

The dying never stops
The crying never stops
The raindrops never stop
Pounding on the roof

She went dropped out and and moved home the next week.

Personally, I like Oregon, but it's definitely a strange state. I recommend preparing by watching a lot of Twin Peaks re-runs. It's worth noting that, although the series is set in Washington, David Lynch is from Oregon.

...Missoula, Montana. Do you mean that he lived in Oregon at some point when he was growing up?

If you weren't born in Oregon, they don't want you. The signs on the state line should read "Welcome to Oregon. Now go home."

If I was in your situation, I would look very hard at Vancouver, Washington. It's right across the Columbia River from Portland, so if you really want to go down to Portland and get lost on their shitty expressway system you can, and it's not in Oregon so you don't have to put up with those crazy fuckers.

Where would I move if I were in your situation? Issaquah, Washington. It's close enough to Seattle that you can go there when you want (it's on Interstate 90, which terminates in Seattle), but far enough away that you're not dealing with Seattle traffic all the damn time. And there is a place in Issaquah that makes the best fudge in the world.

That doesn't mean it's reality.

Oh, yeah. It rains all the time, too. Every day, without stop.

:eyes:

but as one who has lived in the South and on the eastern seaboard and in the desert Southwest, I have found Oregon, specifically Portland and Eugene, as well as Corvallis, to be exceptionally mellow and enlightened. It sounds like you ran into some negative people, or found some wacko situations there. But I believe that if you take a representative sample of people who have really lived in all these places, you'll find that Oregon is one of the most tolerant and tolerable states in the country.

Although they are in the minority, there are pockets of liberals and liberalism throughout those states. I once had a reporter from the Spokane Spokesman tell me that more liberals should move up there because they were needed to effect meaningful change in ingrained conservative attitudes.

It's pretty easy to be "mellow" when you are living in an area without much racial diversity, isn't it.

The black population? Comes in at a screaming 1.25%.

http://eugene.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

The state of Oregon did NOT allow blacks in at ALL...that's why there was no slavery....up to the nineties there were grandfather clauses in real estate transactions that allowed houses to be sold to whites only.

Want me to keep going, or do you just want to keep right on pretending that people in Oregon are really Liberal?

"Liberal" out there means worrying about the trees, and not caring if the chicks go topless at some of those weekend deals. It means that you can get some really great hemp products at the markets. "Liberal" means that the Bliss Ninnies are happy with their organic produce, birkenstocks, and alternative medical community.

It's fake Liberalism at it's worst.

The reasons you state are the reasons people need to move to places like Oregon, to effect change. Those places are too pretty to let the freepers have them. I lived in Idaho for five years and I nearly got shot by the locals several times for shooting my mouth off, but I think I did have an effect because more and more liberals are moving to those places and the hard core freepers are moving further and further into underpopulated areas like in Wyoming and the Dakotas. I say good riddance.

Fake liberalism is just that...fake! Real liberals challenge the status quo, and quite frankly, Oregonian Bliss Ninnies are just living in their white, stress free...check out the drizzle...who cares...I have my Latte...brain dead White State.

It's ridiculous.

I miss Powells.

Stephanie

I really hated to see all the beautiful and scenic places owned by racist white people who don't appreciate what they have. So if anyone, whose a real liberal, wants to move to those places we should encourage them. The fact is you are going to have to put up with the locals, but letting them chase you out because you aren't in complete agreement changes nothing, but makes the attitudes even more ingrained.

I was very disappointed when I had to leave Idaho because of my husband's health. I felt we were two less liberals there who could've effected changes. Not only that where we lived was so beautiful and so close to nature it was heartbreaking to leave.

I wonder how old you are, what are your life experiences, in what parts of the country you have lived in.... you make lots of sweeping generalizations about people in Eugene and elsewhere, and I'm sure there are anecdotal examples to back up what you've observed...but remember, Oregon voted for John Kerry rather than Bush in this recent election, and that's a statistic. I think there are probably as many "real liberals" challenging the status quo here in Oregon as there are where you are now living.

The sweeping generalization is the tool of the bigoted individual. The lack of true knowledge of the place is astounding as I read those posts.

Posts like these are proof positive of Gov. Tom McCall's wisdom....

Remember the old sign on I-5? Welcome to Oregon. Enjoy your visit?.

The sentiments are as true now as they were then....

If only there were more old school Oregonians left.

nt

Sorry you didn't like just about the only city worth living in the USA. It's funny that you don't clue in to the reality that our hate crime statistics show more acknowledgment of racism and other bigotry issues than most of the country is willing to acknowledge. We actually call a spade a spade up here. There's no bullshit, no matter how much crap you try to spread about it. No, it's not perfect, but your post is so ridiculously far from the truth that it serves no purpose whatsoever.

it was in North Carolina, the state touted by this poster, that I, as a young white man dating a black woman, was chased in my car and nearly caught by members of the KKK. This was in 1968. Now I realize that times have changed, but to so disparage Oregon and our "phony liberals" while holding her (or his...the profile doesn't match the name) state up as a bastion of honest acknowledgement of racial issues simply doesn't feel or smell right to me.

because it's my husbands ID...That is why I keep signing my posts "Stephanie" instead of Michael.

Maybe you should reread the posts?

Stephanie

PS-when you reread the posts--notice something else: you could replace the words "Portland" and "Oregon" with the "South" (or some variation...you get the drift) and put them on a Southern Apologist thread, and they would ALL make sense--they sound exactly the same. Weird, eh?

To replace "Oregon" and "Portland" with "the South" doesn't quite work, because we're discussing whether NW liberalism is phony, and whether the South is a hidebound, beady-eyed, sweaty-upper-lipped repository of good-ol-boy racist horseshit. Now to exchange the names of these two regions in these posts just won't work, 'cause the issues themselves are completely different. And I maintain, as a native Southerner who heard the word "nigger" used so casually that I had to learn its perjorative meaning over many years, that the Pacific Northwest is a place where people have a better chance to be free than most other regions of the US, including the South.

JanMichael is my husband...I wrote all of these posts because I was too lazy to sign in under my name.

We were talking in the Lounge about antidepressants just two days ago.

Please read the posts of the people that disagree with me; first of all, I said that would happen (that everyone who lived there would freak) but second of all...they read just about exactly like Southern apologists, don't they?

Groupthink can be scary whether it's a bunch of white rednecks in GA, or a bunch of retro-hippies in OR sitting on NW Portland sipping latte.

Stephanie

What else are people going to do when such ugly, blanket statements are made about the place they live, and when they've lived there long enough to know better? I've lived here twelve years, and I've spent enough time in the rest of the nation prior to that to understand that the claims you made simply don't ring true. Portland is not perfect, but it is not the place you describe, nor is Oregon, for that matter. And, yes, I know we've got our share of bigoted folks everywhere in the state. We did just ban gay marriage, of course, just like the rest of this insane nation. I'm not sure who you spent time with here, but you did not meet a fair cross-section of the people who live here, I can tell you that much.

Cheers.

I lived there for three years; moved out there for the express purpose of traveling and meeting people. All I did was bartend, and travel.

I would be very willing to sit down and discuss this with you--but, please understand this--the greatest surprise of my adult life--(again, I am 40 and have lived in VA, NC, SC, MO, TX, OR, GA) is the extent that people will go to to defend their most cherished myths. Those myths can be related to religion, science, or geographical areas.

I have been disgusted by the racism of my home state (NC) for decades-

What chapped me so badly about OR was the number of self-congratulatory white people sitting around, in a state that had laws up into the nineties designed specifically to keep African Americans OUT, sucking down really great coffee or microbrews basking in their myth that they are Liberals.

Seriously...mosey over to a coffee shop in the NW section, or spend some time people watching at Powells. Go have a Guiness at Kells--go to one of those family owned Italian restaurants--and ask yourself "Where are all the black people in a city of this size?"

The answers you come up with might just surprise you. And I have loved your posts on DU for a long time; I KNOW you won't answer with my sister in laws myth: "They just did not want to live there." Uh huh.

Stephanie

However, it's quite clear to me that you bought into preconcieved notions, perhaps backed up by an early interaction or two. No, there will never likely be a large African American community in Oregon, due to the state's history. However, that has little to do with your accusations that everyone here is in a state of denial. The exact opposite is the reality. This place talks about these issues far more than I have ever noted in the south. And it's interesting that your examples are the usual cliches about Portland that have nothing to do with the substance of this city. I suspect that says a lot about why you think the way you do. You want to bust some myths, work on your own first. It would be impossible for me to believe such a sweeping accusation as you made about any part of the country, so how about starting with that myth, as you wrote it?

Good day.

and you're absolutely right. I'd move back in a heartbeat.

To imply that Portland practices some type of institutional racism is as absurd as me claiming that southerners are rednecks. Maybe you have a point.

Thank you!

Most people can't recognize institutional racism for what it is, or even acknowledge their part in it--

The US needs to address this issue on a national level--it is time for a hard core look at the country as a whole.

Stephanie

I'm a consultant, and I’ve traveled excessively throughout this country. And I would pick Portland as a place to live over 99% of the cities I’ve visited. I will admit that Portland has its problems but you name a large metropolitan city that doesn’t? Ever Been to Detroit? Enough said.

Well almost enough said. Just because Blacks in large numbers don’t live in the very center of Portland doesn’t make Portland racist, its called market economy. I dare anyone to come up with a statistic that Blacks make up a smaller percentage of the city center as compared to their overall population.

I think maybe you don't either.

You don't think the "market economy" in the US or world is in any way shape or form related to institutional racism?

And this:

"Blacks in large numbers don’t live in the very center of Portland doesn’t make Portland racist..."

Ummm Blacks in large numbers don't live ANYWHERE in the Northwest.

Why don't you look into the underlying causes instead of telling me I don't know what I am talking about?

btw...ducky for you if you love Portland. Wish I were there right now so I could buy some white folks a couple of double shots espresso and really listen to their version of liberalism.

But, I gotta go to work.

Stephanie

...esteemed lily white midst. And I suppose demographically it doesn't if you only count people.

"I dare anyone to come up with a statistic that Blacks make up a smaller percentage of the city center as compared to their overall population."

Ok, I will...Here.

Table 2
Comparison of Black-White "Segregation Index" Rankings to Percentage of Metro Population Living on Black-White Integrated Blocks





% of





Population

Black-White
Black
Living on

Segregation
Population
Black-White

Dissimilarity Old in Metro
Integrated
100 Largest Metropolitan Areas, 2000 Census Index Rank Area Rank Blocks Rank
Albuquerque, NM MSA 31.81 1 2.6% 95 0.3% 95
Honolulu, HI MSA 35.83 2 3.1% 91 2.9% 86
El Paso, TX MSA 36.45 3 3.0% 94 2.5% 88
Orange County, CA PMSA 36.80 4 1.8% 97 0.1% 97
Salt Lake City--Ogden, UT MSA 36.91 5 1.3% 99 0.1% 98
Tucson, AZ MSA 38.82 6 3.3% 89 0.6% 94
San Jose, CA PMSA 40.51 7 3.1% 92 0.3% 96
Las Vegas, NV--AZ MSA 43.32 8 8.5% 59 5.7% 66
Phoenix--Mesa, AZ MSA 43.72 9 3.9% 88 1.0% 93
Ventura, CA PMSA 45.52 10 2.1% 96 0.1% 99
Tacoma, WA PMSA 45.95 11 8.2% 64 13.7% 23
Raleigh--Durham--Chapel Hill, NC MSA 46.17 12 23.0% 15 23.1% 6
Norfolk--Virginia Beach--Newport News, VA--NC MSA 46.20 13 31.5% 5 38.6% 1
Riverside--San Bernardino, CA PMSA 46.28 14 8.1% 66 6.3% 62
Greenville--Spartanburg--Anderson, SC MSA 46.44 15 17.7% 29 17.8% 17
Charleston--North Charleston, SC MSA 47.42 16 31.1% 6 32.2% 3
Portland--Vancouver, OR--WA PMSA 48.07 17 3.2% 90 3.0% 85
McAllen--Edinburg--Mission, TX MSA 49.47 18 0.4% 100 0.0% 100
Seattle--Bellevue--Everett, WA PMSA 49.62 19 5.2% 86 4.1% 77
San Antonio, TX MSA 50.40 20 6.7% 75 4.4% 74
Vallejo--Fairfield--Napa, CA PMSA 50.90 21 12.5% 46 15.6% 21
Middlesex--Somerset--Hunterdon, NJ PMSA 51.97 22 8.0% 68 7.2% 56
Columbia, SC MSA 52.15 23 32.3% 3 33.5% 2
Austin--San Marcos, TX MSA 52.28 24 8.1% 65 5.4% 68
Bakersfield, CA MSA 52.28 25 6.1% 78 3.1% 84
Allentown--Bethlehem--Easton, PA MSA 53.27 26 3.1% 93 2.8% 87
Wilmington--Newark, DE--MD PMSA 53.55 27 18.2% 28 20.3% 9
Jacksonville, FL MSA 53.94 28 21.9% 18 20.9% 8
San Diego, CA MSA 54.15 29 6.2% 77 3.2% 83
Fresno, CA MSA 54.30 30 5.3% 85 1.7% 91
Oklahoma City, OK MSA 54.45 31 11.2% 50 11.2% 31
Stockton--Lodi, CA MSA 54.45 32 7.0% 72 3.4% 81
Charlotte--Gastonia--Rock Hill, NC--SC MSA 55.16 33 20.7% 20 21.5% 7
Scranton--Wilkes-Barre--Hazleton, PA MSA 55.60 34 1.6% 98 1.1% 92
Sacramento, CA PMSA 55.97 35 8.4% 62 8.4% 46
Richmond--Petersburg, VA MSA 57.04 36 30.5% 7 26.4% 4
Orlando, FL MSA 57.04 37 14.1% 39 10.1% 38
Nashville, TN MSA 57.05 38 15.9% 32 17.0% 19
Minneapolis--St. Paul, MN--WI MSA 57.83 39 6.1% 80 6.2% 64
Knoxville, TN MSA 58.05 40 6.1% 81 5.0% 72
Wichita, KS MSA 58.21 41 8.4% 61 6.8% 61
Tulsa, OK MSA 58.52 42 9.4% 56 7.6% 49
Providence--Fall River--Warwick, RI--MA MSA 58.69 43 4.3% 87 3.5% 80
Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC MSA 59.01 44 20.4% 22 18.9% 13
Dallas, TX PMSA 59.36 45 15.3% 33 10.5% 37
Fort Worth--Arlington, TX PMSA 60.33 46 11.4% 49 11.8% 27
San Francisco, CA PMSA 60.87 47 5.7% 84 1.9% 90
Albany--Schenectady--Troy, NY MSA 60.91 48 6.4% 76 7.4% 54
Little Rock--North Little Rock, AR MSA 61.27 49 22.2% 17 20.2% 10
Denver, CO PMSA 61.76 50 5.9% 83 5.1% 71
Fort Lauderdale, FL PMSA 62.25 51 21.5% 19 16.2% 20
Oakland, CA PMSA 62.81 52 13.4% 40 8.7% 45
Columbus, OH MSA 63.10 53 14.2% 38 13.6% 25
Washington, DC--MD--VA--WV PMSA 63.12 54 26.7% 12 20.2% 11
Ann Arbor, MI PMSA 63.24 55 7.9% 69 10.7% 35
Monmouth--Ocean, NJ PMSA 63.35 56 5.9% 82 5.4% 69
Mobile, AL MSA 63.73 57 27.5% 11 17.7% 18
Springfield, MA MSA 64.13 58 6.8% 74 6.0% 65
Tampa--St. Petersburg--Clearwater, FL MSA 64.47 59 10.4% 53 7.8% 47
Louisville, KY--IN MSA 64.49 60 14.3% 37 11.3% 29
Omaha, NE--IA MSA 64.69 61 8.8% 57 7.8% 48
Hartford, CT MSA 65.05 62 9.7% 55 7.0% 58
Atlanta, GA MSA 65.61 63 29.2% 9 18.4% 14
Boston, MA--NH PMSA 65.68 64 7.3% 71 4.4% 75
Jersey City, NJ PMSA 65.69 65 12.8% 45 3.8% 79
Akron, OH PMSA 65.85 66 11.5% 48 10.8% 34
Rochester, NY MSA 66.32 67 10.6% 52 9.1% 42
West Palm Beach--Boca Raton, FL MSA 66.68 68 14.5% 35 9.7% 40
Baton Rouge, LA MSA 66.93 69 32.1% 4 17.9% 16
Sarasota--Bradenton, FL MSA 67.15 70 6.1% 79 4.3% 76
Grand Rapids--Muskegon--Holland, MI MSA 67.18 71 7.7% 70 6.9% 59
Pittsburgh, PA MSA 67.27 72 8.5% 60 7.6% 50
Houston, TX PMSA 67.49 73 17.6% 30 7.6% 51
Los Angeles--Long Beach, CA PMSA 67.55 74 10.0% 54 2.5% 89
Baltimore, MD PMSA 67.93 75 27.9% 10 19.0% 12
Memphis, TN--AR--MS MSA 68.72 76 43.6% 1 23.5% 5
New Haven--Meriden, CT PMSA 68.97 77 13.4% 42 11.4% 28
Toledo, OH MSA 69.10 78 13.3% 43 11.3% 30
Kansas City, MO--KS MSA 69.12 79 13.2% 44 10.1% 39
New Orleans, LA MSA 69.25 80 37.7% 2 18.3% 15
Syracuse, NY MSA 69.26 81 7.0% 73 6.9% 60
Dayton--Springfield, OH MSA 70.16 82 14.8% 34 9.4% 41
Harrisburg--Lebanon--Carlisle, PA MSA 70.62 83 8.2% 63 7.5% 52
Indianapolis, IN MSA 70.66 84 14.4% 36 13.7% 24
Philadelphia, PA--NJ PMSA 72.33 85 20.4% 21 11.1% 32
Youngstown--Warren, OH MSA 72.85 86 10.6% 51 8.8% 44
Birmingham, AL MSA 72.92 87 30.2% 8 14.8% 22
Bergen--Passaic, NJ PMSA 73.24 88 8.1% 67 3.4% 82
Miami, FL PMSA 73.57 89 19.9% 23 3.9% 78
St. Louis, MO--IL MSA 74.35 90 18.7% 27 13.2% 26
Nassau--Suffolk, NY PMSA 74.38 91 8.7% 58 5.3% 70
Cincinnati, OH--KY--IN PMSA 74.84 92 13.4% 41 10.9% 33
Buffalo--Niagara Falls, NY MSA 76.74 93 12.0% 47 7.3% 55
Cleveland--Lorain--Elyria, OH PMSA 77.32 94 18.9% 26 10.6% 36
Newark, NJ PMSA 80.42 95 22.5% 16 7.5% 53
Chicago, IL PMSA 80.85 96 19.0% 25 6.3% 63
New York, NY PMSA 81.82 97 23.8% 13 4.7% 73
Milwaukee--Waukesha, WI PMSA 82.16 98 16.0% 31 9.1% 43
Gary, IN PMSA 84.14 99 19.8% 24 5.7% 67
Detroit, MI PMSA 84.72 100 23.4% 14 7.1% 57



BlK/Metro Rank Integrated
Portland/Vancouver 48.07 17 3.2% 90 3.0% 85

So their 3.2% of Blacks in the Metro Area rank real sweet, 90th out of 100, 100 being the worst. 3% of their population live on Black White Integrated Blocks, another fabulous 85 out of 100.

But the real point is this: It's a nice city, I like it myself, but there's a real disconnect when it comes down to admitting how White the place is and how easy it might be to be a "Liberal" there. Is it hypocricy? Perhaps. Although I think it's more that they just don't give a rat's ass.

They'll argue their Racial, I mean Liberal, purity, as this thread proves, till they're blue in the face.

Oh well.

Michael

EDIT: The table is hosed. I'll try to fix it.

That's for sure. And that was an interesting twist of the question there. City center = metro area? Hmm. Nice, honest dialogue that you've offered.

Your cliches and rants show this argument for what it is: Its own form of bizarre bigotry. Whenever one sees the kind of emotion you brought to this issue, along with the usual crap about "lily white" this and that, one sees through the rant for what it is, all too easily. Apparently you needed to find a reason to hate Portland. You've found it. Too bad it's so blatantly sweeping that it shows you've put zero thought into it.

Census Block numbers are hard to deal with because they're intentionally vague so we can see how America really is. We can come pretty damned close though.

Like I said, I LIKE PORTLAND FINE!

It's just that, once again as this thread shows, they can't see the forest for the trees. Or lack thereof.

PS~ My cliches and rants? You mean my wife's. She's probably explained that 50 times on this thread yet once again someone's reading comprhension fails them.

SIGNED,

MICHAEL

You just offered your own cliches and rants (in fact I used one of your statements as an example, so it's interesting that you would try to blame your wife), and you offered statistics that do not answer the question offered, and then you simply repeated yourself instead of actually addressing my actual post. Yet, you accuse others of not seeing the forest for the trees? Sorry, but you do need to look in the mirror. Your accusations and cliches are not based on a full reading of history, on a full reading of the whole of Portland or Oregon or the nation, for that matter. Whatever slight bit of Portland you chose to engage with and choose to remember is not representative in any way. I know you'll deny that repeatedly, but I suspect that you know it's true.

Good day to you.

honey, no one can afford to live in metro center of san francisco, not just black people :evilgrin:

do we have racism here? sure we do!
do we have a history of discrimination? sure we do!
do we have laws, be they in the past or current blue laws, discriminating? did in the past, pretty sure we still have some forgotten laws still sitting there about discrimination.
are we this hotbed of antagonistic prejudice? ... yes! we are the most racist, sexist, homophobic, bigots who can't tolerate religious freedom, cultural and subcultural expression, and fashion experimentation. of course we are hateful! because the numbers are irrefutable :D our aura of hatred exudes off of us and our repuation preceeds us.

can you tell i think this clump of data doesn't mean one whit? i knew that you could :evilgrin:

and that you've decided to go back to North Carolina. It's obvious from your comments that you didn't fit in and you weren't happy here- and maybe that's not surprising.

Please tell all your Southern friends- everyone you know- how bad Oregon sucks. Also, don't forget to remind them that it rains all the time here too.

~Depa

on the demographics of the state that you defend so....ummm..eloquently.

Well, have a good day--

Stephanie

you'd understand exactly what that post meant.

I do hope you enjoy NC- with it's non-existant land use planning, barely existant rapid transit and large fundie contingent. I know a little bit about the place- seeing as how almost my entire family lives there.

As to Oregon demographics- shallow observations like the ones you made hardly merit a rebuttal.

My husband (whose name I think I am posting on right now...so don't get excited like Ron and post, "and her name doesn't match her screenname or profile!) is a planner.

He has posted statistics for you to look at. You call them "shallow" (What? How in the world are statistics shallow? Nevermind...) and then make a crack about land use planning.

Now you're attacking someone for his mental health diagnosis?

Yes, those statistics are shallow. They don't show racism. They show who lives here. Nothing more. As stated, the history of this state is indeed racist. However, despite the ban on African American immigration into Oregon, there is now a fair percentage of people here. Show me patterns of African American immigration in the last 50 years. Now that might show a more accurate reflection of the racism of an area. Still, it really tells very little. There's no context, no study of attitudes, of actions, of reasons. Nothing but blind statistics. So, yes, they are shallow numbers and nothing more.

Have a good day.

than they do with current realities.

:D

The counties that threw the state to the repubs are mostly in the south easter part of the state, and that part of the state makes west Texas look nice.

I propose a trade, we give Texas all the counties that share a border with it right now, and they give us El Paso. Sounds fair to me.

If I had to pick 3, "God NO!" states, it'd have to be Utah, Nebraska, and Oklahoma.

a state that just elected the scariest new Senator, a guy who sterilizes young women without consent and wants the death sentence for doctors who perform abortions. A definite no.

:evilfrown:

& I can come up with a lot more...:eyes:

Jasper isn't perfect, but what place is? But if you go to Jasper, you'll meet some very nice people, including my father. And the African American mayor ain't too bad either. And the county has a kick ass Dem club, which even had a doctor member who owned his own plane and would fly gubernatorial candidates around the state for the party- at his expense. And the people (white, black, doesn't matter) are very friendly for the most part. And the county votes Dem on down ballot races, too. The economy isn't too great, but it is still in Bush's America- so I guess that is a negative.

But I guess it's just easier to add more Texas bashing to a thread with plenty already. Especially when you can throw out an inflammatory name like Jasper.



I don't know where you live and I really don't care anymore. I'm tired of the stereotyping of people in the South, and especially Texas. About 40% of people who voted in Texas voted *against* Bush. Only 30% of people in Wyoming did the same. Go bash them for a while- especially since their votes mean more, given their electoral weight.

Born in Kirbyville, Raised in Hemphill.. And all my family lives in Jasper, Kirbyville, Buna, Vidor, and Beaumont.. I know more than my fare share about that area...

Maybe I see the question differently, or else I just omitted politics from the equation. There are racists, rednecks, Bible thumpers, End Timers, Nazis and Taxophobics in every state in the country, so I realy didn't take that into consideration.

The last place I would want to live would be a place in which it was difficult to *survive*. So, I would have said some place like Ragan County in West Texas before I said Jasper. :shrug:


I probably know many in your family. My dad is originally from K-ville, and my grandmother was a teacher there for 30+ years. :hi:

I grew up on the Toledo Bend Lake.. I had to make the 11 mile trip into Hemphill to go to school.. My step-grandmother still lives on the lake.. Yep, there's a really good chance you know some of my family. My grandmother, brother (his family) and 1 aunt still live in "Call" (outside of K-ville.) My mother, all my aunts and uncle, and all my cousins went to school in K-ville. I went to school in Hemphill. So the annual Hemphill-Kirbyville football game was always fun. I moved away 15 years ago. Still go home once year to see family.. My 7 year old suffers from deep "culture shock" whenever we go to visit. He has grown up in downtown Portland Oregon. Big change from back home.

The thick, dark piney woods, the masive oaks and water trees, birds, birds and more birds, and the azaleas in the spring. I always thought of the area as the less enlightened Pacific Northwest, of sorts. Though we certainly don't have the Pacific coastline that Oregon and Washington have.

I can imagine he'd be absolutely horrified going from Portland to East Texas. Thankfully the ropers and Wranglers groupies are a dying breed. This area has certain charms, but it's certainly not the greatest place in the world- though I wouldn't say it's the worst either. But then you know that since you grew up there. I grew up in Beaumont myself, not much better!


I've just seen way too much red state (esp Southern) bashing today. I understood it for a couple of weeks after the election, knowing that people needed to vent. But I think by this time people really need to direct that anger in better ways. Sometimes people act like there weren't any Bush votes in the Blue states. Even the very liberal and very wonderful Northeast voted for Bush by about 45% when you look at the area as a whole. I'd much rather we bash Bush Voters- and draft them for that matter.

oh wait - I already live here! :crazy: :silly: :scared:

HELP ME PLEASE!

eom

I drove the beach rode from New Orleans to Galveston. I just couldn't believe the desolation of the beaches, the wetlands and the color of the Gulf. The water was brown. Perhaps that is natural? The environment was a direct reflection of State politics. Texans deserve better than that.

the gulf current creates a sewer along southern louisiana and southeast texas coasts. they have a state hwy here that has been abandoned due to erosion that used to run along the gulf.

there's lots of trash, oil globs, and junk that float up here from the cameron oil patch.

"the Gulf current creates a sewer"? How does the Gulf do that? Actually the experience was worse than I said. Our car was suddenly swarmed by so many flying insects I had to put the wipers on. Luckily within about half a mile there was a turn off, and within a hundred yards they all were gone. We just kept going till we left the State.

in early May or September, and got caught in the Love Bug Season. I have no idea what their scientific name is, but they are small black bugs that join together while mating, hence the name Love Bugs. They swarm our area a couple of times each year, and can cover the front of your vehicle in a matter of miles!

I don't know the science behind the Gulf issues, except that some of the problem really is natural, due to the closed in nature of the Gulf. It has something to do with the combination of the closed nature of the Gulf of Mexico, the massive dump of waters and silt from the Mississippi River into the delta, and the oil wells in the Gulf. They basically act to send a "backwash" of dirty water right back to the Louisiana and north Texas coasts. South of about Corpus, the beaches and water quality are better, and it gets better the further south you go- like South Padre Island. Otherwise, the beaches north of Corpus, up around the Houston-Beaumont-High Island areas aren't very pretty. But they *are* great for birding, as the area is in a migratory flight pattern. The Texas coast is populated by thousands of migratory birds each year, with ducks, geese and cranes of all kinds stopping for a visit. But I wouldn't recommend that you actually swim in the water of Crystal Beach or Galveston!

when jellyfish swarms get sucked in. . . ouch!@

I was thinking of driving to Vegas in early spring, and bypassing Texas.

I guarantee you the Dems here in TX work harder than any of you fucks could ever imagine.
Living and actively participating in politics in a place that has monsters like Tom DeLay is probably above most people's threshold of courage and commitment.


ON EDIT: apostrophe

none.

I have a profound love with the land of the great american deserts
around and west of the rockys.... and not a single affection towards
the slayers of the great indian tribes, and their inheritors.

Where? I guess if you put a gun to my head and made me go back to
the USA, i'd be hard pressed. The south is "out" and pretty much
all the red states... seen too much already, no need for more. ..
no. there is no place in america that has decent quality of life,
due to the government, the pending draft, the stupid taxes for war
and nothing else, and the lack of medical care... no place.

The country has been taken over by theocons, they've been a plague
on my entire life, and for everyone i love in this world. The
plague has reached epidemic proportions. There is nothing behind
the plague-lines worth saving.

Fortunately, all the good parts of what once was liberal america,
have taken strong roots elsewhere... and like france once had to
repopulate its grape vines from the US after a devastating plant-plague,
So, the US will have to re-import "the enlightenment" after they
kill off all the good parts.

Vermont still thrives. There's a strong sense of community here, health care for most, if not all, but certainly for the most vulnerable. We have an evolving small farm community helped mightily by the state- we're becoming world reknowned for our artisan cheeses, lots of organic farming. We have a growing Progressive Party that now holds eight seats in the legislature. We still hold town meeting day and make decisions on a local level. We have tight and effective planning and laws and a complete ban on billboards. People live in communities and there's socializing between those with money and those without it. We have terrific representation in Washington. Our schools are pretty good and we're rated best in the country for women. We have civil unions, now supported by 77% of the electorate.

Vermont is magnificent. I researched moving there. It is 'cold' for
california-blood. And perhaps that is what keeps the place less
trashy. In a past life, i worked in essex junction, and stayed in
burlington. It was a magical life... but then as the semiconductor
industry disappeared from them green hills, as did this member of the
silicon tribe.

The bummer about the nicest parts of the USA, is that they are remote
to transport, they are all governed by the Attourney General, kids
can be drafted, and television and governance rules apply from the
insane in Washington DC. Worst, if your economics rely on big city
jobs, the likelihood of finding them in rural idyll is pretty slim.
For those considering such, a second career in carpentry, plumbing,
medicine or teaching would perhaps be wise.

Just to the north of vermont is the country rated 3rd in the world
for women, behind danmark and netherlands. Its close, and nice that
canada is more normal to orient to, than boston... perhaps the green
mountain range separates and protects the folks up there towards
the st lawrence drainage basin, and not the american east coast.

One of the bluest of the blue states - government here is dominated by democrats, and they make it so health care is available to folks who need it... plus we have some pretty beaches for swimming. :)

The islands are beautiful. I found the property prices to be quite
steep, and the quality of jobs and economics to be poor unless
independently wealthy or plying the hotel trade.

I can't help but sympathize with the native hawaiians, who are, in
less public moments, not overly impressed with the haoli invasion.
The pakalolo is good there, making it almost worth it.. ;-)

I did find a multi tier culture: rural poverty of mostly non-whites,
military-culture and the transplanted diaspora that it carries, and
the tourists and "neo-natives" the white settlers. That said, my
favorite moments in hawaii were as far away from all those sets of
people as possible. ;-) (in the water)

All in all, if you can't get out of the USA, hawaii, alaska,
overseas territories and removed states will surely survive the bush
insurgency better, as more remote german villiages survived the
third reich.

Yet a few thousand miles to the south, new zealand offers a full
complete liberal democratic system that quite is an improvement over
the "lesser evils" of finding the best place on a sinking ship.

Just i hope all decent americans get to a safe place, as this bush
nutter has hardly begun, and with his coming coronation and wars,
at least 50,000 more people who are living today, are gonna be dead
by his work of the next 4 years.

Godspeed to all who seek refuge.

Worst place ever. Cold 9 months of the year but no pretty snow, everything DIES during the winter (not that there were that many living things there to begin with), this huge mtn. range blocks the entire western horizon so it gets dark every day at 2 pm, urban sprawl nightmare where 3/4 of the citizens are ticky-tacky house dwelling SUV driving sheeple, no culture whatsoever, a huge military base and NORAD (so they are #2 in line when a nuclear war happens) and worst of all...

FOCUS ON THE FAMILY runs the town!!!!

A few years ago, almost the entire town council was replaced in an election. Colorado Springs was in the middle of a huge and costly drought that was going to have far reaching effects on future water use in the city. What was their first act of business in office? Certainly not dealing with the drought issue, no! Those conservative idiots decided that the most pressing issue for the citizens Colorado Springs was the fact that GAY CITY WORKERS WERE !!HORRORS!! GETTING DOMESTIC PARTNER BENEFITS!!! (oh, the humanity...)

So they promptly put a stop to that. Because as we all know, it's ok for Colorado Springs to run out of water and burn down just as long as gay people aren't getting the same rights as other people. That's the REALLY important thing. *insert irritated eye-roll here*

I hate Colorado Springs with a fierce passion. You could not pay me enough to live there, ever. Denver is a close second on the list.

and Jasper and Kirbyville, Hey.. I could just go on and on about shitty little towns in SE Texas.. And I am a native Texan...

I'm strange that way, I guess. I love all of America, and try to find the best in all Americans.

Aleister Crowley called it the moral sewer of America, and that ol' boy knew a few things about moral sewage.

Mississippi, Alabama, and Texas would probably be next on the list. And Louisiana.

Sorry,
too bible-belty for my tastes. Never got over the stigma attached to Mississippi and Alabama from the Civil Rights era either.
I honeymooned in Colorado eight years ago and it's by far one of the most beautiful states I have ever seen...but I won't go there either until Dr James Dobson croakes...

Ann Arbor,
as in Michigan!

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

You'd have to put up with "W" ruining your country, and Jeb ruining your state. Two Bush brothers for the *cough* price of one. No thanks!!!!

There are more, but those are my top --- mostly because of politics, except for Houston. We flew in there one night for a concert, I swear the whole city looked like it was moving because of all the cockroaches.

OKC just sucks -- really, it does.

Tulsa -- not all that bad except for the politics and the fact that there is a church on every third corner. I grew up near Tulsa... I just think I've had enough of Oklahoma period.

Witchita is another place that just sucks -- really, it does.

for my job. Port Arthur to be exact. I wouldn't go back there for any money in the world. (Although I did meet a few very nice people there.)

as my uncle refers to it.

the place is a ghost town.

ago to visit family.. I had moved away from that area 15 years ago. I couldn't believe a shitty it had gotten there!!

I've lived most of my adult life in rural NC surrounded by nature and wouldn't trade it for anything. I have creek running near my house and get to watch a large herd of deer that go every sunrise and sunset to get water. I love springtime and watching young deer frolicking in my front yard while I sip my morning coffee. A beautiful pair of fox have set up den somewhere in the woods behind me and every now and then they wander into sight. This spring I had a couple of hawks that too some strange interest in my bathroom skylight. Nothing like sitting down to "do business" only to look up and see a couple large birds looking down at you :)

I love the quiet and total darkness of the night, star filled skies. No boom boxes, trucks, sirens or nosy neighbors.

Having grown up in NJ there are things I do miss and I wander into the city whenever I get the taste for a decent pizza (yes it does exist in NC).

but we live in the metropolitan area of SF Bay Area. our hills are quite nice, you really can forget you are smack dab in the middle of a metro area. quiet and total darkness of the night, star filled skies. no boom boxes, trucks, sirens, or nosy neighbors... and a hop, skip, and a jump away from tall buildings, opera houses, marinas, museums, big parties, great cuisine, etc.

yes, you really can have your cake and eat it too -- too bad the median house costs 1/2 million dollars... otherwise it would be paradise. soooo close! :evilgrin:

wouldn't want to live in wyoming or kansas. all that flat space scares me. kinda like being left in the middle of the ocean. ugh, scares the bejeebus outta me. you can leave me in the middle of the desert, or the middle of a turbulent sea, but please, please, please don't leave me in a big, flat, open, still expanse. aaaiiii! scary!

a population over 100,000! Give me the mountains and solitude any day! Especially the Blue Ridge/Smokies/Appalachian chain.....

anywhere in Nebraska or Kansas

edit: oh! Why?

fascism

The center of biogtry in the United States and our badge of shame.

I fuckin HATE the burbs.

The cities have humanity and personality. Each different. Each exciting.

god lives in the rural areas.

The piney wood of the Southern Forrest. Sit under a Southern
Oak during a summer's warm rain and not love the South.

The open vastness of the prairie can scare some, like the ocean.
Hear the lonliness of the prairie and know your soul.

The desert is beautiful in its inhospitality.
No one has really seen the stars until they have slept in the desert.

Just,PLEASE, don't make me go in the suburbs! ANY suburb.

...and Fresno.
You are right, Ladyhawk. Get out while you still can.
Rush Limpbo used to live in Fresno, and look what happened to him!
Even Bakersfield is better than Fresno.

I don't care what part of the country it's in--the suburbs do strange things to your brain.

You can't tell whether you're on the East Coast or the West Coast or Hawaii without looking at the vegetation.

Regrettably, all my relatives now live in the suburbs, and whenever I go visit them, I feel as if I'm venturing into the Land of the Body Snatchers, where people practice total, uncritical acceptance of all commercial trends. Sitting and listening to otherwise intelligent people talk seriously about whether McDonald's or Burger King has better food is enough to make me run screaming to my urban restaurants run by first-generation immigrants.

I'm not a small town person, but having lived in one for seven years, I can imagine how they would be great for someone who's seriously into outdoor activities or who wants to raise children in an outdoor environment. I can definitely understand being a "city mouse," too, because I am one.

But the suburbs? Yuck. They combine the crowding and pollution of the city with the inconvenience and homogeneity of the country: the worst of both worlds.

and yes I am white.

always more $$$$$ in a place where you are inundated with whites.

ghetto has cheaper rent and the people are less uptight. crime isn't as bad as people would have you believe.

No major university (or even a decent sized branch), so there is no liberal core infrastructure. Right across the state line from Aryan Nations HQs. So homophobic that a few years ago the editor of the "alternative" paper (a joke) had to explain why the few gay bars in town would not allow his paper to ID them as such in ads or articles.

Cold and dreary weather is the good point. Sucks.

weird. I kinda liked that place.

The Aryan Nations HQ was located about 5 miles north of Coeur d'Alene. While most people would officially pooh pooh them, deep down their sympathies were with them. Also, North Idaho is full of retired SoCal cops with bald or shaved heads. To the right of freepers, and homophobic as hell.

On the border with Texas, middle of nowhere. Attached to Fort Polk. All the buildings outside of the dead downtown are made of corrugated metal. The nicest restaurant had a filthy concrete floor. A divided highway runs down the middle of town, log trucks all day and night. It's all pawn shops, tattoo parlors, and drive-through hurricane stands.

Ku Klux Klan alive and well, and it's not too far from Jasper, where they dragged that poor guy behind the truck.

Only good thing are the Korean restaurants.

But Utah would drive me crazy with the mormons running the state.

I've been a Cincinnatian all my life and have always felt this city needed a major attitude adjustment but I guess in comparison it could be worse.

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where we wouldn't want to live. Doesn't everybody have a personal opinion about these kind of things?

But there really are some awful areas of the country.

Most of Florida, Houston, Dallas are pretty good submissions.

Maybe its because I’m younger than 40 (not by much unfortunately lol) but what did JFK actually accomplish?

JFK cut taxes on the wealthy all the way down to 70%. Think about it, duggy, high taxes on the wealthy, and the greatest increase in prosperity this country has ever seen. I know. I lived through those years.

Enjoy your stay.

I'm a NY'er and after not finding work for one year, my parents convinced me to go there (they retired there)...worst 10 months of my life!

I grew up in Asheville. Even attended an alternative elementary school back in the 70's. Granted, "paddling" was still legal, and I received enough to set my "hail Mary's" into the next millenium (!). But, all things considered, it wasn't so bad compared to a few other places I've lived since.

When we moved to NOVA, I thought we'd all died and hit purgatory. Just how many ways can middle-class white folks find to add freakin velveeta to their otherwise 'nouveau' cuisine? (UGH!) BTW, velveeta was never really intended for human consumption. But, it just happens to make a damn good, hidden morsel on the end of my fly rod! (Just don't tell all those fanatical fly-fisher persons)

Currently living in Montana. Just about as homogenized and hegemonized as ya can git...but, while we're seriously and desperately lacking cultural diversity, it's been a rather effective place to study that same phenomenon from a psych perspective. Almost like an intended laboratory of WHITE FOLKS...but, without the added expense and whining of said white folks.

I've lived in New York City all my life. I truly think that Asheville could have been Anywhere, USA and I would have felt the same. At least I -think- so.

There really isn't anywhere like Manhattan and this is what I'm used to. I hated having to /drive/ everywhere I went. Here, I can walk anywhere I want to go on the island.

I also felt that some of the people were a bit condescending. Not all, but some, and it was difficult to read the people there. In NY, I know where I stand, almost always. There, I was just a bit lost. Hard to explain.

I just guess that I need the bright lights, the ocean and that New York way.

You know, there's no place like home.

:)

I attempted to live in NY once, many moons ago. Everything you said about not knowing how to read ppl in Asheville rings so true for me during my brief stay in NYC.

Seriously...it was beyond weird. SOme would pass me on the street and smile, only to turn to their 'comrade' and make some random, offensive gesture about my attire or accent. Others told me my accent was "so cute", and could they hang out with me that night and take me to their usual jaunts to show me off? (Went to the "People's Bar" in Manhattan- actually met Calvin Klein that night!)

Either way, I was considered the butt of their cultural joke(s). It never seemed to occur to them that I might actually be a woman of intelligence, integrity or substance. I was simply an amusement.

Their loss.

I agree with you, it was their loss.

Basically, I was just ignored in NC.

I will say though that I met some very nice older people there, but it seemed to me that people just weren't very interested in getting to know me.

I can't stand hypocrites or ignorant people. :grr:

I know there are blue areas in the red states and vice versa. But I would feel like I was part of Bush's re-election.

.. just from stories I've read about the place. Freaky-deaky!

Well ... not really. Just when they gang up in the millions they can make life miserable.

If you walk outside to stretch your legs and you're walking on concrete, I pity you.

If your dog gets out and you're more worried about him getting run over than gettin snake bit, you need to move out a bit further.

Nightmarish traffic for dozens of miles, often oppressive heat, endless cookie-cutter suburbia with ugly arid sooty vegetation, right-leaning politics and millions of boring people.

Starbucks and Applebee's are the substitute for culture - Oh and don't forget the lovely street gangs!

Lived there for a year and hated every waking day of it. Just moved to Santa Ana from there a couple months ago, but yeah don't miss the 91 for a second either.

Ugliest city on Earth. Wind-blown Eucalyptus trees through the haze as you creep along the I-10. Makes me shudder.

The Inland Empire does suck.

I'm originally from the Palm Springs area and hated growing up there.

i was debating going to UC Riverside, so i decided to visit. so all my fears are confirmed! good thing i didn't go. looked like a little slice of hell.

Texas panhandle - about as deep "red" as you can get, totally flat, nothing there, Vega, Texas is horrible, hot, windy, the main activity is going to the Burger King and just sitting there at the tables! For all ages! Basically all of Texas but especially the center and the panhandle. Tyler, Texas is another hellhole.
Gila Bend, Arizona - the ugliest place in the U.S., absolutely nothing there, very very hot
Riverside, California - unfortunately half of my family lives there so I am forced to go there for holidays and birthdays - hot, boring, right-wing and the smoggiest city in the U.S.
South Carolina - redneck central - enough said.
Really, anywhere in the Bible Belt, but especially Alabama. Very backwards in every way.
Pasco, Washington - smells bad from the paper mills.
Colorado Springs, Colorado - epicenter of those hideous "Families First" Christian right-wing terrorist groups.
Some people criticized Oregon earlier in this thread - I lived in Portland in 1981 and 1982 and I enjoyed it a lot, but I understand now that it's a much bigger city. I met a lot of interesting people there including the late Ken Kesey one time. Portland is a beautiful city with parks and trees and roses and rivers, it's "clean and green" - but the price for it is seemingly endless rain.
Hands down, though the worst place to live is within 2 miles of any Wal-Mart.

"South Carolina - redneck central - enough said."

I've lived in Charleston area for many moons. Plenty, really PLENTY of Kerry/Edwards stickers/signs here before the theft. Never saw anywhere near that many Gore stickers.

And we had blue counties, and counties that were so close to being blue.

Really. I know how it must seem to those who have never been here, but the lowcountry, especially, is relatively 50/50 for Dems or better. Its the upstate, suv, yellow ribbon hypocritical fundie freaks that skew things so badly when you look at the state as a whole.

I only went through the northern area of South Carolina - Dillon, Conway, Aiken, Myrtle Beach, etc. - I found it to be 100% red and redneck. Guess I jumped to conclusions about the whole state. Obviously I didn't tour enough of the state. Isn't that the state where the Citadel and Bob Jones University are located?

I volunteer with a Drum & Bugle Corps who every year travels thru Texas. When I joined them on tour in 03, my first day was in Kansas at over 100 degrees, we went straight south from there thru Oklahoma and into Texas. It was god-awful hot and miserable. The only redeeming thing was we had a free day in San Antonio and I got to shop on the Riverwalk :).

how much time you have spent in Mississippi...especially in the gulf area. I have spent some time there...more than a vacation...and there are alot of Dems there! Get out of the "me! me! me!" thing...as in "There's no water there" when speaking of Vegas...the big picture is there are repugs everywhere...including your precious blue states. Just keep alienating those of us in the south and see what happens.

"the big picture is there are repugs everywhere...including your precious blue states. Just keep alienating those of us in the south and see what happens."

Too many people forget about all the repugs in their blue states and I for one am sick and tired of this red state vs. blue state mentality. It is just dividing the democratic party further and further and will eventually drive people away.

My brother received a 75 year prison sentence for something his son and his son's friend did while passing through Texas. His son got 9 years and his friend who turned states evidence got nothing. The boys took my brothers gun from his trunk and held up a convenience store while he was sleeping. Have hated Texas ever since.

but guess what? I do!

I am conflicted on a most basic level.

19 years old and i've lived in Tennessee, Florida, and Louisianna... I can say without exception that Ft. Polk louisianna is the armpit of the south, Florida is it's urinary tract (kinda looks like a penis anyway) and texas is it's unsavory rectal region, that area of missippe to south carolina is an enlarged prostate

I live here now and I hate this damn state! It sucks major. My daughter is in high school but as soon as she graduates we are moving. She hate's it to. My husband is from here and don't want to move but me and my daughter both have told him to damn bad you either go with us or you will be left behind. We can't wait to get the hell out of here!

A former industrial/textile giant till the 70's then it went to an hispanic ghetto wheer unemployment is at about 30% right about now.
I went back there 2 years ago and it was a warzone-like wasteland. The heroin capital of New England. From the 1850's-1960's it was bustling. Now its arguably the scariest city in the US.

I feel at least a little bit of your pain. I was born at Lowell General Hospital, drove through Lawrence quite a bit during my childhood.

I will never go back! They can't make me!!!!!

Lowell is a half-way decent city now.

Its a decent town now. You may have to nuke Lawrence to improve it.

Just this week a firefighter and dispatcher on the 911 night shift were videoed using cocaine,drinking,and partying all night.

Camera installed after they received a tip.

My uncle was a mob footsoldier who was a seargent on the LPD for 15 years.