Fundies In All Out Attack on Evolution...

I have noticed Evolution being discussed more and more frequently. It is not a coincidence.

At my UU church this weekend a traveling Minister spoke on the "Great Story of Evolution". This "former" Christian Fundementalist preacher turned UU is traveling the country speaking about the importance of liberal religious orgs to adopt a "story" of evolution. I frankly saw rith through him.

It is just another way of attacking science that debunks Christian beliefs.

Here is why:

If liberal religions adopt a creation story based on science then science become non-secular. And this opens the door for creation stories to be taught side by side with science. Because fundementalists will claim that evolution is not a scientific theory (or observable phenomona) but is a religious story or belief.

So now the attack begins. The fundementalists are going to distract and evade all other issues with the soul purpose of getting creation taught in schools. And we will all be fighting that battle...as more starve, more die in Iraq, more pollution spills into the air, more people are murdered and more harmless pot smokers are sent to jail...

So get ready folks...the distraction has begun. The fundie regressionists operatives are well placed and are already driving the discussion.

It looks like we will drawn into another fight. AGAIN...


For reference here is the definition of Theory.

the·o·ry Pronunciation (th-r, thîr)
(Philosophy, Biology, Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics)
n. pl. the·o·ries

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.


2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.

3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.

4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.

5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

because they haven't completed it yet.:evilgrin:

*sigh*

Because the mainline Christian denominations, like Roman Catholics and Anglicans, accept evolution, natural selection, long term geology etc. already. It's only the fringe elements (largely in the USA) who don't.

that includes creation and evolution...a story not unlike great flood stories, adam and eve and other biblical stories...

Liberal religions can choose what stories they teach to children and to tell in the pulpit. Rather than following a specific dogma...

UNfortunately the "fringe" elements are not so fringe in the USA...they are apparently a large percentage of the population...

that was my take on it.

if it serves their purposes.

For instance on the answersingenesis website - someone "explained" how all of the animals could fit on the Ark by saying that it was only necessary to have a dog-like animal and a horse-like animal and a few dinosaur-like animals... and other varieties evolved from there.

There is proof of evolution. There is no proof of creationism. Teaching creationism in school, aside from being in violation of the separation of church and state rule, is tantamount to willfully teaching falsehoods. They might as well be teaching kids that diseases are a result of bad spirits in the body and are Gods way of punishing evil-doers. If a teacher tried to teach my child that evolution doesn't exist, he would laugh at him; never-the-less, I won't have a teacher teaching this garbage to my children. That will be the last fucking straw. It will be serious PT conference time at that point.

But that is what I feel is being done...by dimishing science to a religous belief they can put "stories" that are the basis of faith in front of millions of kids in public schools...confusing the hell out of them. Once they hear the earth is 6000 years old in school and in church then we really are going to regress...rather than progress...

the fundies are coming!

Weren't you the Creationist in the other thread?

Seem pretty transparent.

never been...

Confused, are we?

That has me using the "C" word. I was discussing the misuse of scientific terms.

don't do labels!

in biology class. Test question: Explain why vestigal organs exist.

Answer: Because God made them.

Grade A fucking plus

I wish I could take all tests as a fundie scientist

Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow, perhaps?

Seemed like a decent enough chap and dedicated to his quest...I just thought it was odd that he comes from a very fundementalist background...

Bought some books from him....

Was going to write more on this last night, but just getting around to it today. I've known Connie for a number of years. She's GREAT! Met her some years ago at an IRAS conference on Star Island in New Hampshire which featured a number of science, religious and cultural academics and writers. I saw both of them speak a few months ago in Cambridge, MA (and Connie remembered me! which was cool.)

I just want to mention that despite her husband Michael's fundamentalist bent (which I agree is overbearing given he was a ~groan~ fundamentalist preacher - and treats this material similarly...~groan~), their work is rooted in the hard science of evolutionary dynamics...it's based on the work of Brian Swimme and Thomas Berry.

Swimme and Berry's work is, in fact, the antithesis of the "creationism" movement as they are attempting to inspire awe in the reality-based aspect of creation and evolution. Thus the idea is to inspire wonder in the Universe _as it is_ and inspire a cosmological cosmology RATHER than a consumer- oriented cosmology. Swimme has often cited the fact that children watch 35,000 commercials before they even get to school and barely even look at the stars (let alone if they could see them given all the light pollution.)

Swimme teaches at the California Institute of Integral Studies and if you EVER get a chance to see him speak or take a workshop, do so and I guarantee you will NOT regret it. His 12 part Canticle to the Cosmos video series is FANTASTIC! Here is his bio from CIIS site:

"Brian Swimme received his Ph.D. (1978) from the University of Oregon in gravitational dynamics. His research focuses on the evolutionary dynamics of the universe, the relationship between scientific cosmology and more traditional religious visions, the cultural implications of the new evolutionary epic, and the role of humanity in the unfolding story of Earth and cosmos. In 1998 he founded the international Epic of Evolution Society, a forum for artists, scientists, ecofeminists, ecologists, religious thinkers and educators interested in the new story. He is the author of The Hidden Heart of the Cosmos (Orbis, 1996), Manifesto for a Global Civilization (with Matthew Fox) (Bear and Company, 1983), The Universe is a Green Dragon (Bear and Company, 1984) and The Universe Story (Harper, 1992) which is a culmination of a ten-year collaboration with cultural historian Thomas Berry. Brian's media work includes the video series, Canticle to the Cosmos and The Hidden Heart of the Cosmos. "

Google "Brian Swimme" or go to www.brianswimme.org to read more about this work. For DUers, I recommend Swimme rather than Dowd for this stuff.

Our congregation is having a lively discussion on our list now.

Connie Barlow was not present unfortunately.

I will look into the link and pass the the info along..

She really provides the balance. Honestly if I had seen Michael alone and not known of Swimme/Berry work, I'd have been turned off too!

Isn't that Ken Wilber's group?

I've read snatches of Wilber, Swimme, and Cohen, but not deeply. My initial impression, however, is that--especially in Cohen's case--they're trying to make too big a deal out of evolutionary philosophy, trying too hard to shoehorn it into traditional enlightenment teachings and a modern scientific outlook. I don't agree with Cohen that enlightenment itself is evolving, simply because the definition of "enlightenment" has always been that it is unchanging. I would accept a slightly less ambitious theory, however, such that perhaps the nature of awakening is changing. I think awakening can take on a myriad forms, perhaps as many as there are organisms prepared to experience it. But the ultimate end of awakening, IMO, is always the same thing: A pure, unchanging, unformed Enlightenment.

So how does Dowd's cosmic evolution gospel fit in with integral consciousness?

I'll be very sad when they don't all float away into heaven.

With a fundie psuedo-science book at the Grand Canyon.

That the Grand Canyon is Satan's ass-crack?

"If the Grand Canyon developed over millions of years, why don't we have Grand Canyons everywhere we have rivers, on earth?" they have asked.

Well, Mr. Fundamentalist Idiot, if you would bother to go out and see the world, you would find out that there are canyons all over the globe that are similar to the Grand Canyon. Each has eroded in iots own way given 9ts particular geography, amount of runoff available and years geologic stability, i.e. hasn't folded over into mountains or sunk beneath a sea. It's just that the Grand Canyon has had several hundred million years and an inexhaustible, until now, supply of runoff to form.

I don't give a shit what they think, and what I think is none of their gd business.

when all Americans believed the same things...

...the woman's place is in the home...
...blacks are less human than whites...
...immigrants are only fit for manual labor...
...rich people have been chosen by God to run the whole show...
...children make the best workers because they can't say no...
...God loves poor people because he made so many of them...
...my country right or wrong...
...we must go to war to maintain the peace...
...homos should be executed...
...the Jews control the world's money...

Have I left out any of those ideas that Made America Great?

I think it is OK to teach creation stories, but they MUST be taught as STORIES and MYTH in English class and there needs to be strict education as to the DIFFERENCES between science and myth. Creation stories SHOULD NOT EVER BE TAUGHT AS PART OF SCIENCE. That is like saying an apple is a metal, not a fruit. The fundies are trying to say that an apple is a metal when it is not. This alone should be enough justification in my viewpoint to dismiss the the fundies from teaching myth as science. Which is simply ridiculous! on its face value!!!

Creation stories are a wonderful way for children to learn about the different cultures of our planet. Children should be taught that the Judeo Christian creation myth is JUST ONE OF THOUSANDS of Creation myths/stories that peoples have written to help symbolically and archetypally understand how things come into being. The children can then write their own "creation myths." Like "How the Horse came to have his tail" or "How the Sun came to be in the sky."

Or as Connie Barlow often does...- do rituals or create art, music, poetry that honor actual evolutionary dynamics such as the birth of planets and stars or the dynamics that led to flowers birthing on this planet. (I once worked with others and we did a whole show of music and poetry and dance about how the flowers came about on the planet...honestly it was really neat!)

The Gnostics have some great stories...

http://www.gnosis.org

been a gnostic reader for years!

I believe there's a big difference between spirituality and religion and there are real problems with institutionalized religion. The spirituality of the gnostics is more mysticism and also, panentheism - "God is in everything and everything is in God." Or what the Native Americans call "the Great Mystery" or the Manitou, the spirit the enlivens all which is part of creation. It is this "creationism" to which I feel drawn, and not that forced upon people without respect for mystery or any sense of the "Sacred" by Christo-fascist fundamentalism. Arrrgghhh.

Would that be like adopting the great story of the chosen son who was formed in the womb of his mother by the great deity only to have later been ritually tortured, killed, buried, then resurrected?

Yeah, I love the great story of Dumuzi. From what I understand, it's been adopted too.

Seriously, they claim that the world is only 6000 years old, so how can they explain the fact that we can see light from stars more than 6000 light years away?

In order to support their lunatic age for the Earth, they are forced to change various laws of physics. One of those is gravity, which they believe operates faster than light. Another is that of light itself, whose speed they claim is not constant, and which was created in place around the Earth, already containing the information of galaxies millions of light-years away.

When the center cannot hold, the entire edifice crumbles.

currently, like quantum mechanics or something? Entanglement at a distance, or something that you could actually argue about?

They missed the train to argue about evolution about 100 years ago.

Maybe I just misunderstood, but he wants Christians to accept evolution. Personally, I'm atheistic and don't believe any higher being was involved in evolution. But most people, including many scientists view God as being a presence, for instance, being the original source of the universe but then letting the world develop naturally.

If that's the story, I don't really see what the problem is.

if science is a religion then neither evolution nor creationism should be teached in science class (and there ought to be no science class to begin with), but rather both evolution and creationism should be teached in bible class...

They can't bear to think they were anything "less" than modern man when they appeared on the earth.

--------------------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a theistic evolutionist? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

failed to produced the desired results. Inspite of massive efforts, the earth still appears to rotate.