I actually am over it.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I can't stay focused on the vote fraud issues anymore. I do want investigations into what happened to continue. I support those of you who are woking hard to find out exactly what happened. However, I don't think we will ever know to any degree of certainty whether or not the election was stolen. My suspicion is that, in the end, it was a close election and it demonstrated exactly what we know: this is a divided country- and it's divided by folks who are experts at playing the politics of division and derision. Add fear into the mix, and I have no trouble believing that more people may have voted for bushco than Kerry. I don't think Kerry connected with everyday Americans. There's lots of talk here about how we can never win another election because it's so rigged. I don't buy that. I think that's despair speaking. And I don't think it benefits us to assume that all elections forevermore are locked up by republican fraud.

:-( Really Kerry gave up before I did and that was a real kick in the teeth for me! I never would have thought that Kerry would concede so easily! He must've known what was coming after the votes were cast. But we who have *deserted* Kerry need to just shut up and move on! :eyes:

That's why Republicans are allowed to do this without anyone investigating. Since when do you just "take their word for it"? Don't you want to know for sure?!

"And I don't think it benefits us to assume that all elections forevermore are locked up by republican fraud."

I am feeling the same way. I must let go in order to move forward. I will support the effort to investigate the election, but think we must work harder at the grass roots level to affect anything in the future.
I think Mr. Dean ought to chair the party with Mr. Kucinich.

attitude are worth fighting for and trying to save.

Am old enough to where I won't be around too much longer to see the mess apathy will make of our nation.

Thank you for your post and contribution to my possible retirement from trying to defend the Constitution for a citizenry too busy to be bothered by it.

or your children or grandchildren or for those testifying at the Conyers hearing. Self-pity ain't gonna get you anywhere. I've come to the conclusion that my time and energy are going in a different direction, doesn't mean I don't support election reform, doesn't mean I'm going to stop being active in my local Peace and Justice group, doesn't mean I'm not staying involved with local politics.

Sorta wonder about that.

Did I say I wasn't staying involved in groups and interests? Just said I don't know if your franchise and vote is worth my fighting for. ;) Guess irony is outta style :shrug:

and the underlying self-pity.

I am way past feeling sorry for myself. At a certain point is a very comfy liberation.

have a good one.

I don't believe we'll prove enough voter fraud, quickly enough, to have a President Kerry. I also have no doubt that the election was stolen again. I think we will eventually find out and that several house and Senate seats were stolen.

The bigger issue is that our nation will not survive if we can't ensure the integrity of the vote. It's one thing when your candidate loses and policies are adopted that half the electorate opposes, it's outrageous to know that happened because they committed crimes to get there. We can't be 'over it' until we create a more transparent, authentic voting system.

One thing that has surprised me is the number of folks I know who say the election was stolen. Not just my radical friend, but moderate Democrats who have believed any of the other conspiracy theories. Folks just bring it up every time the election is discussed. It's not me saying that I think it was stolen. We have a serious problem in this country when moderates and somewhat conservative folks believe the election was stolen.

On edit: I'm not over it. I'll continue to work hard.

I have no hope that this election will be overturned any time soon, or that fraud will be proven in time for Kerry to be inaugurated on January 20 (not that I ever believed that or really even want that to happen at this point). However, I am very concerned that future voting issues will make all of our "grass-roots work" irrelevant. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Even if you don't care about fraud in 2004 (which, in some ways is understandable given all the aggravation and fight it takes to get anybody to pay any attention to it), you should still care about what happens in the future.

Here's my really radical viewpoint: transparent voting should be the primary issue addressed by the Democratic party and Democrats over the next 1-2 years (even more so than war or fundie bullshit or anything). Black Box Voting is a very serious problem that's not just going to go away if we all decide to "get over it". I will also continue to work hard.

Is another way to say that one has given up. We do not have that luxury, I am afraid.

We must fight, in our own ways, every day. In every effective and sensible manner we can muster, and then when we win, we have to clean up the mess.

this is just getting started. That is, thanks to all of those who have preservered and resisted the temptation to "move on" and overlook this crisis.

If you had seen the hearing that Conyers convened, and listened to the very emotive and powerful testimonies, maybe you would see that there is VERY serious concern on many levels about the legitimacy of the election.

But, to each his own. Democracy and freedom don't come easy and our Forefathers were aware of that. You have to stay on it and with it to keep it. Quitters don't end up being anything but slaves to something.

and I'm glad they held it, though I don't neccessarily agree about the testimony given- at least some it. I understand the concern and have tried to educate myself on the fraud issues, particularly in Ohio. I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the election was stolen. Compelling evidence that there was some fraud in the form of not enough machines, integrity of said machines and voter suppression, yes. But enough to account for a 3 million vote differential? I have my doubts. And there are a lot of other factors, including, for example, horrible weather. Why people can't entertain the possibility that more people voted for bushco seem to me to be a mote in one's eye. It is, at least, a possibility. But having said this hardly makes me a quitter. I intend to stay active, particularly in local politics. I never said one word about quitting. We don't all have to march in lock step.

Move along!

I wholeheartedly support the efforts to explore voter fraud, and I'm frustrated that most of our party leaders refuse to commit to such a crucial issue in a democratic society as the integrity of our elections process, which right now is viewed by the rest of the world as inadequate.

However, it never hurts us to improve our message, and try to frame it so that it has more appeal to Americans....I do NOT mean that we should alter or dilute our party's principles in some shallow effort to win more votes. That, to a large extent, is what the DLC has done. I'm only saying that we need to make a conscious, unceasing effort to point out the ways that the core values of the Democratic party are distinctly American values.

I believe that there was vote fraud, because I've seen a lot of very convincing proof. I support and encourage those who are have the will and the means to fight it. However, whether or not we really won the election, it is still crucial that we work on presenting our beliefs and goals to voting Americans in a way that will inspire them, the way we once did.

That's why I can't be "over it". I've never, in my 49 years, been remotely politically inclined, but I am now. I couldn't ignore what was going on around me, and the more I learned the more appalled I became. I was slightly interested 2 years ago, now I'm convinced democracy IS at stake, and I'm a lot more than slightly interested. I DO have trouble believing that many people voted for Bush, and I also believe if not acted on now, all elections "forevermore" (if we even bother to have them) will be locked up. It may not benefit us to assume that, but in my opinion, it's most likely the truth. HOW can we be "over it"? Given what we know about these people, how can anyone be over it? I like democracy far too much to be "over it", and I won't be over it until the last vote has been counted, the last investigation conducted, the last question answered. There is strength in numbers, and DU has given me hope. We have people who should be in jail running the country, people who were never elected in the first place, people who are gaining more and more control over our lives everyday, and now thinking they have a "mandate". No, I can't be "over it". I wouldn't fight in a war created by Bush, but I'd sure as hell fight in a war to save our democracy - or what's left of it, anyway. It's not about John Kerry - it's about DEMOCRACY.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

I do believe it was stolen, but they did it slowly, systematically, undetectably, over a long period of time. I believe we'll never prove it, and should not allow our minds, money and energies to be so distracted by trying to do so.

However, I am NOT over the theft, and NOT over the fact that every fucking day, if I don't go out of my way to make a conscious effort to avoid it, I will have to hear the voice or see the face of our illegitimate, incompetent "leader".

In a way, I'm envious that you are over it, because I don't know if and when I will ever be there.

I do think if we are not careful, future elections will be compromised by fraud. We need better controls and to get rid of those goddam black box machines.

put that note on your fridge and don't buy into that crap.

You don't have to fight this kicking and screaming, but please don't believe that Bush legitimately won anything in his entire miserable failure life.

If Bush acts like a fraud, lies like a fraud, he is one.

I was talking to a Bush voter after the election, telling him about what was happening in Iraq and describing the various ways that the Bush administration is subverting democracy. All that I had to say came as news to him, and he was very open to hearing it, and very disturbed that he had voted for Bush without knowing about the things I was telling him.

His question - "why wasn't Kerry talking about any of this?"

In other words, the fact that the opposition wasn't raising the issues was a big reason for why they are completely out of view for many people.

That is when I realized the danger in keeping quiet, whether it is for the sake of peace and getting along or for the sake of making my own emotional state easier to manage.

I think that being over it is based on an illusion in any case.

It is not so much that they stole the election. It is that they stole the election in order to steal the government. And it is not so much that they are stealing the government that we need to worry about. It is that they are stealing it because they are planning to use it. And even that is not the major concern. It is what they are planning on using our government to do that is the problem There will not be any easy way to get over that, or even to escape it.

that was the only venue the Mess Media would allow him.

He did a fair job, in my opinion, but he should have been more Rovian-go-for-the-jugular.

I am now dissapointed in everyone and will sit on my pumpkin, knowing I have it all to myself, than be crowded on another hopeful hopeless cushion.