"If we give up now, what have so many troops died for?"

This is, I find, an interesting argument. Because on the surface, it seems so hard to combat, but when you look deeper, it's incredibly weak.

To answer the question: Take your pick.

Lies. Political capital. Bad intelligence. Oil. Greed. Personal grudge. Daddy issues. Everything. Nothing. Tapioca pudding. 42.

But no matter the reason, the fear of any sort of defeat that could resemble Vietnam is what will lead America's occupation of Iraq to just such a defeat, with thousands of fighting men and women fleeing like the Uruks after the Battle of Helm's Deep at the end of The Two Towers movie. Even if they win, the cost will be horrendous.

In my opinion, a clean defeat is better than a Pyrrhic victory.

Of course, Bush doesn't care. It's not his children getting killed. And he's making money off the oil prices being scared up. Two million of barrels of oil per day are being spirited out of Iraq. Times $45 per barrel, that's $90 million dollars. PER. DAY. When you have that much money, what does the life of John Q. Public or his son mean?

As for the person who asked the question? Eddie Guerrero, one of World Wrestling Entertainment's "Superstars", during the company's recent visit to Iraq and video taping of a show with the troops as an audience (naturally, none were charged admission).

Nothing good, anyway. Throwing away more lives, military and civilian, will not make the deaths any less pointless.

before we admit its a mistake?

which there is not point continuing? Tell me the number you feel is the line in the sand."

since the troops are risking and losing their lives for an undefined goal, they MUST believe that the goal-whatever it is-is worthy of the loss or risk of losing life. To believe otherwise is simply unacceptable.

a truth is a truth regardless of WHEN we lose this war.

They should voted for Gore.

voted for Gore.

But its a moot point now I suppose.

But I do agree with your picks.

Their sacrafice was meaningless for a cause that never should have happened -
Folley, futiiity, fecklessness.

Its the leadership that ought to be held to account for 100 thousand plus Iraqi lives and over a thousand of our own...not to mention the wounded.

It is a shame Iraq has so much oil. I have to agree with the cognative dissonance remarks. It all depends on what myth you chose to suscribe to - but this war and invasion is not being done in my name. I never supported this administration. I am waiting for them to go away.

but, as an atheist, I don't have such good luck :(

If there is a hell - this administration is staffed with kind of folk you'd expect to find there.
As an agnostic I agree with you. I see how religion is a criminal racket that plays right into this invasion.

but they died for an unjustified invasion and occupation. Both of which have been destructive and horrible. This, along with the Bush's motives.
That is the saddest part of all.

How many dead troops will be enough eddie ? 10,000 ? 50,000 ? Will that be enough eddie ? Ya stupid fuck, I think the steroids are rotting your brain eddie.

This is the same nonsense that kept Viet Nam going. It was bullshit then, it's bullshit now. Winning the hearts and minds ? I don't think so.
Bring em all home NOW ! 1300+ dead for a lie is way too many.

No one in power will readily admit that we made a mistake. It's so much simpler to say that we need more troops and more time than it is to take stock of what has happened and really critically examine one's course. It's one way advocating staying the course against another way advocating re-examination and a fateful decision.

It's going to take years before we remove our collective hand from the meatgrinder. It's a hunch, but I wouldn't make it if it weren't for the risk of falling into the trap.

bumper stickers, I always wonder if these are the same bible thumpers who have read, "pride goeth before a fall."

Well, our "pride" has been on display for all the world to see...as will be our fall.

Whether they agreed or not, they are enabling war crimes and genocide. At this point, only international-level pardons can forgive them.

And, BTW - I wonder if * would feel any different if it was his girls dying over there. I swear, the man hasn't a sympathetic bone in his flabby body.

This is a chimp and an administration that will exploit any tragedy if it benefits them. Remember the Russian school hostage crisis? Within only a few hours, they were in front of the cameras saying that this is why the world should help * defeat terrorism.

the purpose is to put as much of OUR Treasury into the pockets of the war-profiteers (this was also the purpose of the Vietnam war)....nobody really cares if we 'win', just as long as the US Treasury keeps flowing into the pockets of the war-profitteers...right now, nobody cares where $ 200 BILLION DOLLARS has gone to...no audits, no public disclosure, no accountants, no oversight at all...because everyone KNOWS that it's a WAR and all that pentagoonn stuff is 'secret'....and because it's the same as Vietnam, same players, same defense contractors, same program step by step of what we percieve as 'failures'....the war-profiteers KNOW how to STEAL ALL OUR MONEY (halliburton, bechtel, saic, dyncorp, lockheed).....and like Vietnam, they will keep this failure going and their money flowing all the way until OUR economy is in shambles, and the reTHUGlicans WANT that to happen as a core philosophy.....it's already demolishing the much hated social programs and educational programs, the reTHUGlicans see no use for...

After 14 years in Vietnam, OUR enconomy was in shambles, there were very few jobs, BUT, for the war-profiteers it was a HUGE success....in fact, for most of those companies, Vietnam was the launch to become real MEGA-corporations that they are today...and if your business is up war weapons, you NEED to start a lot of WARS to get rid of your built-up inventory and BUILD MORE WAR WEAPONS....bushies are a god-send for that...


just look at the current partying in DC....MILLIONS gushed onto bush*, because he's doing a wonderful marvelous job for those war-profiteers...bush had got TWO great BIG wars going and a third festering, so they feel that OUR Treasury money will keep on filling their pockets for many happy and partying years to come....it's not a war....it's a HUGE decadent celebration here in DC....

And what's a few more trillion for a worthless missile defense system? :shrug:

I did actually forget about that one....surely there'll be more popping up all over the place....thanks for the reminder....TRILLIONS will speed up the LOOTING of OUR Treasury, maybe bushites are worried that they can't drag this on for an entire Vietnam-length looting.....maybe bushites only get to do this for 10 or 12 years....so bushite war-profiteering project managers are UPPING THE ANTE....

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it really bugs me that bush* can't even make up new pro-war slogans...these old Vietnam slogans being used for Iraq are really causing a lot a flash-backs for OUR damaged Soldiers, who served in Vietnam....


Freedom...freeing the Vietnamese...bringing Democracy....winning their hearts and minds...if we leave now, their 'sacrifice' will have been wasted....I'm waiting for the nixon 'Peace with Honor'.....

The reason for this war of aggression was MUSHROOM CLOUDS WMD WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE THERE IS NO DOUBT.

All of which has been proven total bullshit.

So if we "don't give up now", if we keep killing and being killed, just what have so many troops died for?

the bush* wars are GREAT successes, in shoving BILLIONS into the pockets of war-profiteers like halliburton, bectel, lockheed, said.....STEALING money from OUR Treasury in broad daylight with nary a peep from the public.....

was indeed to "disarm Iraq of WMD".
That was the reason given. That's what Powell told the UN.
Iraq was determined to have no WMD a year ago.
So the question becomes why is the US still there?

BOTH parties create eternal violence. Violence causes violence. 1 + 1 = (2 + n).

So the whole behavior is defeated before it even happens, let alone afterward . . . . .!!!!!

If we pull out now, our troops have given their lives for a mistake, a mistake which many perceived from the very beginning. They died for nothing if we pull out at 1300 and more will die for nothing if this madness goes on to match the Vietnam total.

Freedom and Democracy. If the U.S leaves that doesn't change what they died and or were maimed for. Of course that that is what the ideal illusion is. What they really died for is the expansion of the U.S Empire and control of oil. The MIC and all of the profiteers are surely thankful for the sacrifice of the soldiers, right? Even if endeavor is not successful they still died and or got maimed for that.

To give one's life for imperial expansion, oppressing another culture for the sake of oil, is a waste. I fail to see the honor in the grandfather saying to his grandson years from now, I was in the big Iraq war, I fought for oil. Those who die in this war don't die for nothing, they die for a lie, a lie which provides the ideal illusion. May not be nothing, but just as pointless.

for the same reasons. "Freedom and democracy" is an illusion. To be free of one dictator just to have to be bound to another (Bush) is nothing to die for.

So i suppose you could call them "martyr's"

It's one thing to offer glib justifications when it's just some stranger's kid getting his face blown off. When it's your own- or even yourself- well... that's different, isn't it?

and this is it: to stabilize our oil supply in the coming decades. not next year, not the year after that, but 2010, 2040.

without it, our "freedom", meaning our utterly-dependent-on-arab-oil fucked up cannibalistic economy will surely collapse, leading to global balkanization & orgies of war all over the planet.

i truly think this is the opinion & objective of bush's PNAC advisors (notice i didn't say president presenile dementia's opinion; he doesn't understand this despite being an "oil man"), and every other rationale is just an excuse. whatever keeps the rubes buying on credit.