Bernie Sanders (on Thom's show) in denial

arrgh. He just said two things with which I heartily disagree:

1. Bush won the election (he thinks there were problems, but didn't change the outcome)

2. All members of Congress, regardless of party, want fair, honest, verifiable elections.

Even the die-hard small-d democrats have consumed some of the Kool-Aid. No, bernie, the election WAS stolen and the GOP does NOT want fair elections. Progress out of this disaster has to start from the TRUTH.

of the fraud ever being 'proven' and the GOP exposed. When even good progressives have wool over their eyes.

most of the country thinks, except for a small minority of us, including DUer's!

Luckily, I don't live near a cliff.

Although I agree with Bernie that we can't use fraud as an excuse to slack on organizing, I don't know how anyone can deny all the real evidence of fraud. Is Bushco threatening people? Or is this issue even creepier than we thought? Is there some sort of unspoken rule among politicians that fraud is an accepted part of the game? I have heard that election fraud has been going on forever. Is this just the first time it is becoming common knowledge to the average voter? The first time most of us have been aware of it and we're freaking? I sometimes wonder if this isn't why they aren't as freaked out about fraud as we are.

believe it may be correct!

Disturbing.

:scared:

would make this country cave in overnight. We are the brains, the creativity and innovation of this nation. And yes... we it looks, are the only glimmer of morality itself. How ironic.

I'm working on a visa, depending on the outcome of Jan 6th. If Nobody stands up in the Democratic Party, I am done. I would rather struggle financially and personally in another country.

but if all the liberals leave, will we not leave something behind that will be all the more dangerous to the world?

...'cause he's already left. He's an Independent socialist, not a Democrat. He caucuses with the Democrats by their invitation.

This is not about parties. This is about Representation. If somebody like Bernie can cast us off as "Conspiracy Theorists" what's a label, but a label. It all means nothing.

BALLS IS WHAT MATTERS NOW MORE THAN EVER. TRUST IN YOUR CONSTITUENTS IS VERY CONSTRUCTIVE.

What he did was counter-productive to our attempt to regain a REAL Democracy.

n/t

very disappointing

Why is a fraudulent election alowed to stand? Why Ukraine and Romania git new wlwctions while we need to measure just 'how much fraud is too much fraud"? What is a maximum a Diebold machine can steal?

What do those of you who have been following all the election/voter fraud information believe to be the best specified voter fraud/electronic voting information that would convince Bernie Sanders and others of what we are talking about?

Its important to inform and educate our leaders so they better understand. I would imagine most of them don't time to do the research. Enter DUers* :)

We have a treasure chest of good information here at DU.

What is some concise, impressive, and eye-opening (and mind changing*) information that has impressed and changed your perception the most, which can be sent/faxed to our Congressional leaders, not to mention friends and family that will help them to better understand voting problems we face?

So far they have refused to release the election poll data.

What does that say in and of itself?

Bush's approval rating going into 11/2 was historically low. The tracking polls all had him losing. The exit polls had him losing. There were literally thousands of defections among his voters from 2000 (Bob Smith, the Republican diplomats, lots of people in my neighborhood & family, Kevin Phillips & his ilk, etc.) The voting machine problems on election day. The declaration of GOP SoS's that they would have more voting machines in GOP precincts.

His "win" defied ALL logic.

Certainly a great response to anyone asking why we believe there was fraud.

The sooner we accept it and figure out what to do, the better off we'll be.

you really think ;-)

because Bernie is right. I do not see any way in which there was widespread fraud in this past election where the outcome was actually affected.

until very recently. I don't expect a Kerry administration. However there seems to have been some big problems - and once and for all it is time to get the public to wake up and get a sense that things are NOT as they seem on the surface. If the problems were as serious as seems to be the case... it is a big step in waking folks up to the question of why we always accept the surface line that we are given. I am coming to believe some very wrong, and very intentional things happened. I don't think it will change this election - but it will more publically open the question back up about the last election - especially the NYT and other media joint work that demonstrate that regardless of how votes were counted - Gore won. Why is that important now?

All about the public perception of legitimacy. Make Bush, who is suffering in the polls already, appear to be illegitimate to a greater portion of the country... and as his administration arrogantly tries to push more initiatives down our throat that become harder and harder to spin as being in the best interest of the country... the GOP in congress will have two choices... start defecting on votes now to protect their own reelection... or face a major, party wide backlask in the future.

It could only occur if both parties were in on it. That's the only way I see it happening, Kerry had to be complicit with Bush stealing the eleciton in order for Bush to have stolen the election.

a whole lot of low level fraud here... some little things to tip the scale over there... a little problem over yonder that cummulatively are real bad. That is what seems to have been the case in Florida in 2000. I don't think enough happened in Ohio to tip the election. But given enough coverage I think enough in Ohio will be uncovered to bring back the questions of Florida and bush's legitmacy... that public perception is what is important for how the next two years play out.

I could honestly accept a fair election as George Bush as the winner.

Problem is he has never won, and we haven't had a fair election for the last two election cycles (well, three counting 2002).

There has probably been a little hanky panky in every election. However, electronic voting machines take things to a whole new level and a whole different ballgame.

Its the "fraud without fingerprints" design that should concern all of us.

The elections and the fraud will be much worse and much harder to detect next time, mark my words, if we don't face this deal head on.

Ive been on this issue for quite a while. Its not gotten better and the main reason is due to the ostrich syndrome affecting almost all of our leaders in Washington, which I am having such difficulty understanding. Is it just an epidemic of cowardice? I dont know.

This issue will not go away, but our Democracy will indeed go away if we don't face what has become the privatization of our vote and the widespread fraud on the various levels.

Its incrementally gotten worse every election cycle since 2000 for Democrats and even before, and its not because we are just keep losing. There's more to it than that.

And the main element of the problem is called "cheating".

It's very evident to me that Kerry lost fair and square. He was a poor choice because he refused to gamble.

He proved the maxim that you never put up a Senator against an incumbent. Their voting record is the best ammunition in the world and gives the incumbent the ability to attack attack attack.

"politician". Eeewwww, as they say. This guy has a lot of great things to say but, alas, he's still a freaking politico!