Open Letter to the Rapturistas

Dear Rapturistas,

After you rapture, we're going to auction all your stuff and pay down the debt. Make sure to leave your keys, bank account information, etc. where we can find them.

Regards,

Violet Lake

I've got a list of stuff I want dibs on, though...

:evilgrin:

I'll really be able to build the house of my dreams from the table scraps of Freepers and Christian Fundamentalists.

Come on rapture.

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

he kind of got mad.

It's sad, really.

death cult in hostory.

Hundreds of millions of end times believers have died disappointed. The Heaven's Gate cult became proactive rather than sitting on their butts waiting for their God to rescue them.

...on the debt? :evilgrin:

:)

"In the event of a rapture, this car will be unmanned"

I wonder what DU could do with 100 million dollars....

I can't wait to get a Yacht, a few flat screen TVs, a Porsche, a laptop, and some jewlery! }(

Oh, and it would be nice of you fundies if you could also give us your stocks and political offices. :party:

A rapture contract if you will.


Edit: added the word "legal." lol

power of attorney to be effective only if they leave.

It would be the christian thing to do, don't you think?

but we can be organized about it.

I like it here just fine. I can't wait for them to go so we can start fixing the place up again. They've really made a mess of things.

I'm quite ok with my second-rate fate. ;)

How much money can we raise to pay down the debt selling Precious Moment figurines and Jesus-on-black-velvet paintings?

But would not find much. Except the Left Behind books I wish they would take with them.

when he is not reading the bible. I think those comics might be worth somwething?

do you think they'll poision themselves like all the other goofy freaks? Who was that a few years back that said the space ships were coming to get them?

Wasn't his name "moo" or "poo?"

Then there was Heaven's gate group too.

i am laying claim right now to all televangelist accounts and goodies..

Me for one. I have liberal views politically, but I'm also a Christian. Rapture is derived from a Latin form. I prefer the Greek "snatching away." If you are a Christian or Messianic Jew, then we could argue the point. If you're neither, then we would be wise to start with the "good news" of the Messiah.

Cheers.

Add: :toast:

Maybe you can enlighten me.

What will happen to those that are not Christians?

-Paige

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with our Lord

Unlike when God sealed Noah in the ark and the rest of creation perished, some do realize after the fact and do repent. Many on the left do mock the "rapture," but when it does happen, it will be a powerful testimony to the words the Messiah spoke. Many believe; others do not still. God is always extending the invitation.

And if there is a rapture the ones who think they are going to receive gods favor are in for a big bad shock.

Seriously, some one really has to have something wrong with them to go through life thinking you are that much better than the rest of us.

than anyone else. These are the meek and the poor in spirit that the Messiah mentioned at the sermon on the mount. These are those who gave their lives for their testimony about the "good news" of God. These are the humble.

Oh, you're confusing the redeemed of God with those who just mouth the words. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" belong to Him. You're right. At the "rapture", there will be shock. One that it happened and some people will then believe. Some will be shocked because, although, they think their righteous, God felt otherwise.

The Bible is clear about what happens after the "rapture', both in Heaven and on earth. In Heaven, the Messiah judges those who were "raptured" and then there is celebration. At the Last Supper, the Messiah did not drink the fruit of vine during Passover until he could drink it with anew with his followers. At this celebration, he does just that. Revelation calls this the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Revelation also makes it clear what happens on earth. Even then, God still is still reaching out to those who remain during that time.

Sterling, it's all about choice. God does not want people to be eternally separated from Him. We all have freewill.

Please explain how you, as a Bible literalist and Rapturist, hold to your professed liberal values. I'm sincerely interested to get your viewpoint. You have to admit you are an anomaly of sorts.

Shall we start with your clear position on issues of separation of church and state, then education regarding the creationist/evolution argument, then you might, if you like, explain your position on women's reproductive rights, gay rights, and finish with why the Bush administration has failed America and the world.

This could be either enlightening or entertaining.

I'll be back tonight. :)

And that enlightenment happens over the course of several lifetimes and that inbetween you rest with your ancestors in Tir na Nog.

:eyes: How self centered.

that wasn't printed before 1970?

You will never find the word "rapture" in the Bible. It is derived from a Latin word. I've studied Greek. In the passage that I just posted to steely_dan, I made bold where the Greek word would be. It comes from a word that means "snatch away with the intent of separating" or in this translation, "catch up."

written in about 326 AD?

I believe Paul was beheaded before the second temple was destroyed and that was 70 A.D.

the old Bible I have doesn't even include the verse you gave to steely dan, at least not in revelations.

Last year, I went to the store to replace my daughters Bible, every one of them were different than my old one. The New Living Translation and the Scofield are completely different, like they were either Roman John or Paul the lunatic...




I just think you guys are being misled.


by the way I'm a Deist, and do not believe in prophacy or delussions.

1 Thes. 4:16-17. Here, Paul was trying to re-explain the teachings concerning the "rapture" and the "tribulation." Given that the Christians, the largest Jewish sect, was being persecuted by the Romans and non-believing Jews, they thought they had missed the "rapture" and were living in the tribulation.

(The tribulation being a 7 year period of judgment immediately preceding the return of the Messiah to establish the kingdom of God on earth. First, the "rapture". Then some unknown gap, the tribulation. Immediately followed by the return of the Messiah to rule the earth for the 'sabatical' millennium.)

In this letter to them, Paul was reminding them the sequence of events and no, they were not living during the tribulation. The "rapture' would take place and then the false messiah would stand up, and there would be persecutions.

Keep in mind that when you go to the store, you are buying a translation. Translations are being more accurately translated these days, but they are still done by committee and consensus. For this reason, I studied the Greek of the New Covenant (koine) so that I could read it myself.

I decided to do this when I asked someone who knew Greek what the difference was between reading a translation and the original language. When he stated it was like watching TV in black and white versus color, I gave it a go. Greek is more precise than English. Now, I see what he meant.

BTW, you mean you don't believe in prophesy now. If the "rapture" takes place in our lifetime, I do believe it will be all over the blogs. :)

eternal damnation because they don't read Greek?

Not a very moral or ethical god, if you ask me.

read the real text for myself and make up my own mind.

God made it quite simple for people to avoid suffering: "Repent and be immersed."

Suffering is just part of this life. Even the Messiah experienced that.

This is why I live for the life that is to come and is eternal. When the lion lays down with the lamb, they beat their swords into plowshares, and they learn war no more.

Sounds rather predatory to me -- more like the claws of a great raptor snatching you up for prey - rather than a rapture. The archetypal image always has a dual aspect to be considered for full understanding of any construct. Some might argue that to be caught up equally implies entanglement.

from the late 1800's.

PURE
UTTER
BULLSHIT

There's so much there to work with. But, I'll be brief and will for the sake of the discussion, accept the commentary as it is written (I don't, but I want to make a point.)

Your being exempt presupposes that your heritage goes back to the "others". How do you know for sure? Meaning, you can follow your family's history all the back through time to those living outside of the Garden of Eden?

You cannot. Therefore, you cannot say which of the two groups you belong. Further, the interpretation around the Genesis passages are unsupported and conjecture. And, its not the only one like that that I've heard. There was one unBiblical account that Eve was not the first woman. God created another woman, but Adam couldn't get along with her. Therefore, God started over with Eve.

But, for a scriptural point against the belief that not all carry the spiritual disease caused by sin is simply: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Rom 3:23) There are no qualifiers. This includes you.

I would like to make a couple of counters to the interpretation that the writer has made.

The use of Elohim. It is indeed plural, but the author goes on to say it should be translated gods. I disagree. God is in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is one use for the plural. The "triune" God was present at the creation. And, as it is true that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, this is also true: "Here oh Israel, the Lord, your God is one." What else Moses had in mind is not know, but human kings often referred to themselves in the plural as in "we are not amused." We are created in the image of God: mind, body, and spirit.

The author, I feel, goes down the wrong path regarding die. That is, if you eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will die. The author was expecting the person to keel over right there and then went so far to call God a liar and Satan not when Adam went on to live so long. Death here, was spiritual. And, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they did die. "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4) "Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." (James 1:15) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 6:23) Because of Adam, Eve, and our spiritual death, physical death is inevitable (unless you are alive and just changed at the "rapture.")

These were the two topics that I wanted to bring up. A misuse of the plural for God opened up other gods. This conjecture conflicts with scripture. And, I wanted to add another view to 'die' for the author went on to call God a liar and and say Satan didn't. Satan's language is lies.

take care.

While I do believe in the Bible in the sense that there's a fairly decent acount of tribal history in the middle, I don't believe in it in any spiritual sense. Somehow I doubt Mr Zell does either, as he is a fairly prominent Pagan. The heresy in the above link is mostly tongue-in-cheek, as far as I know. I think if he was really serious he might have left Mrs. Zell's figure out of the argument. :)

I don't believe that Joshua son of Mary ever existed so I really don't believe in his power to save me from a concept I don't really believe in, namely sin. The fact that contemorary scholars didn't distinguish the Jesus myth from the cult of Mithra says a lot about his authenticity to me. (A pity, Christianity was pretty cool until Paul got ahold of it. Paulianity scare me, though.) For that matter, so does the need to create phony relics like the shroud of turin, the burial box of James and the fifty zillion "authentic peices of the cross" that people have suckered each other into believing in over the years.

"What else Moses had in mind is not know, but human kings often referred to themselves in the plural as in "we are not amused.""

When a head of state says, "We" in reference to anything, they are speaking in what is known, for those of us who studied medieval history and courtly etiquette and such, as the royal plural, which means that they are speaking both as themselves and as the state, as it was basic political philosophy for a considerable period of time, ESPECIALLY during the 1500s-1700s that the monarch WAS the state, so when the monarch referred to themselves as "we" they were speaking both for themselves and for the state at the same time. VERY different usage there than a divnity with a triune nature referring to themselves as we, for there they are literally saying we, whereas a monarch saying we is speaking for the whole country.

"The use of Elohim. It is indeed plural, but the author goes on to say it should be translated gods. I disagree."

But what of the first commandment that says, "Thou shalt not take any other gods before me." That seems to imply that there ARE other gods that CAN be worshipped aside from the one who handed down the law unto Moses.

"These were the two topics that I wanted to bring up. A misuse of the plural for God opened up other gods. This conjecture conflicts with scripture. And, I wanted to add another view to 'die' for the author went on to call God a liar and and say Satan didn't. Satan's language is lies."

Where in the Bible is there SPECIFIC reference to an adversarial entity seeking to undo God's work named Satan? I know there are passages where something works to thwart God's will, but from what I know of history, Satan as we know it today was a creation of the church following the conversion of Constantine to be used to convert pagan kings. That and is there anything in there aside from Paradise Lost (which is NOT scripture, but a work of fiction) that specifically speaks of a rebellion of angels and the angels being cast down into hell?

Also for a brief point, for Satan to be as powerful as he is alleged to be, he would have to be a God himself aye?

And for another question:

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, how is it possible he could be at war with another entity and possibly LOSE? Personally that sounds like someone is playing with a stacked deck and loaded dice to me.

Cool, I'll have to bookmark that and pass it around.

What is commonly refered to as the "Rapture" is supposed to involve the Lost Tribe of Israel, not non jews. A 7th day adventist woman in the 1800s theorised that american christians were the lost tribe of Israel and Reagan era right wing christians and televangelists jumped on the bandwagon. a handy excuse for them to run rampant while waving a bible. Imagine, the GOP are Gods chosen people? Too funny.

redeemed by the death of the Messiah and then snatching up those who are alive. The "rapture' is not a recent concept, but a teaching of the early church.

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

Sleep was a term used for those who had died. Jews knew it wasn't a permanent condition because they believed in the resurrection of the dead. Paul is sharing a mystery that not all will sleep. At the moment when the Messiah returns for His own (the "rapture"), those who are asleep will be resurrected, but those who are alive will just be changed -- not sleep.

Although I've heard the term "lost tribe," I would have to disagree. You see, all 12 tribes are accounted for post-Rapture, during the tribulation. Out of these, there are the 144,000 sealed. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7) . All 12 tribes are accounted for; none lost.

It was intended that Jews lead the charge to evangelize the world, however en masse, there was rejection of the Messiah. During the tribulation, Jews en masse realize the Messiah was sent, since they do not believe the false messiah, who is to come (the so-called antichrist). In the end, they do go about the world evangelizing, as is described in Revelation 7.

I would disagree with the 7th day adventist. Paul was teaching this long before the 1800s.

preacher from the late 1800's.

It is essentially heresy.

There is no mention of it in old or new testaments. Period.

substance to back up what you say, other than to a link about dispensationalism. "Rapture" does not equal dispensationalism. The idea of "rapture' is not new. If Baptist didn't get the word until the 1800's, whatever. I'm not Baptist. You yourself may have trouble seeing it in the scriptures, but others don't.

You have to discount sections of the Bible to ignore the "rapture." One, you'd have to throw out the idea of the return of the Messiah being imminent. The scriptures clearly indicate at the "end of the age," the Jews have returned to Jerusalem. Therefore, if there was no "rapture", then the Messiah could not return until the Jews were back in Jerusalem. Consequently, this would shoot down the idea, excuse me, the scripture, that states the return of the Messiah is imminent -- it could happen at any time. With the "rapture", their is no tension. Nothing has to happen before the "rapture' takes places. Things do have to happen before the Second Coming. (Jews in Jerusalem, third temple rebuilt, rise of the false messiah and his false prophet, judgments described in Revelation)

At the "end of the age", the Messiah returns first for His believers, so that all are at the place that He went to prepare (John 14:1-4). At the Second Coming, the Messiah returns with the believers and the host of Heaven to rule over earth (Revelation 19:11-21).

Now, if there were no "rapture," then you have another problem. Scripture states that the Messiah will sit on David's throne, something he did not do during the incarnation. If there were no "rapture', you'd have the believers in Heaven -- the place that the Messiah went to prepare -- and the Messiah himself on earth ruling the world from Jerusalem, sitting on David's throne. Without the idea of "rapture" being its own event, all we've done is exchanged places with the Messiah. He comes to earth to reign and we go to Heaven to chill out. This makes no sense. The John passage makes it clear that after the Messiah returns for the believers, we are always together.

Jewish Marriage Custom. In the John passage mentioned above, the Messiah is referencing the Jewish marriage custom. Here, briefly, a man would leave his father's home, go to where the bride is, and enter into the marriage covenant. At that time, the groom and the bride were married. The groom would return to his father to "prepare a place" for he and his bride. The time the groom would return for his bride was not known. There was a fixed time period, but the bride did not know when he would come. She was expected to be ready. (Hmmm.)

Now, while the groom was away preparing the place, his father would inspect the groom's work and when the father felt the work was complete, he would say to his son, go get your bride. The groom would go toward his bride's house, but did not reach it. The bride, who would be always watching, would meet her groom as he approached. The groom and bride would then go back to the prepared place (the huppah chamber) and there would be a 7 day wedding feast. During this time, the bride and groom remained hidden. After the 7 days of the huppah, both the groom and bride would both exit and the veil would be removed so that all could see who the bride is.

By analogy, the Messiah came to pay the ransom for the sins of man. He shed his blood of the new covenant on the cross during his crucifixion. At his ascension, He went to prepare a place for his bride -- the believers. At some point, the Father will send the Son back for His bride. He does not come to where she is; they meet in the air -- the "rapture." There is celebration in Heaven and the wedding feast commences.

At the end of the "huppah" (see Revelation text mentioned above), the groom and bride emerge -- the Second Coming. Now, all can see who the true believers of the Messiah are as they accompany him as He puts down the kingdoms of men and inaugurate the kingdom of God. The Messiah reigns on earth, sitting on David's thrown in Jerusalem, until the end of time. Then, John looked and saw a new Heaven and a new earth for the first Heaven and the first earth had passed away. Time is no more. Eternity begins.

The heresy, my brother, is the post-millennial nonsense that crept into church later in its history. You'd be hard pressed indeed to state a timeline of events from today through the time described in Revelation (when that takes place) without the "rapture" and not throw out scripture in both the TNK (old covenant) and the new covenant.

preacher out of his head!

There is NOTHING in any new or old testament scripture, nor of any writings or sayings of Jesus or his deciples.

NOTHING.

Same as if I decided I got the word of god from some salamander or something. No, wait, the mormons, already did that!

I'm personally a Pagan so I have no problem debating with Christians about Rapture and suchlike, but last time I checked the Goebbells technique of debate doesn't work against someone who takes the time to cite something. If you have something to back that up, then it will work, but if you just scream the same thing over and over again it's only going to work on people who agree with you.

see the episode of 6 feet under that had a "rapture" themed bit in it? It was really funny, two guys were driving a pickup truck with naked inflatable naugty dolls. When the vehicle was unmanned and crashed the dolls flew everywhere including onto the windscreen of an uptight person's car and gave her a fright...

well I guess it was funnier than it sounds here.

Jesus taught them to not cling to material posessions. In fact he directly told them that if someone.... here read what he said yourself and see if you can figure out something good to do with it.

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.


No need to wait for the Rapture. Just remind them what Jesus taught them. And then ask for their stuff.

pigs will fly and we will be living in Utopia.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/472476

Oh, silly me, the Rapture freaks aren't into bicycles, they're into angel dolls and mini-vans....

LMAO

you won't have time nor space to call your own... you will be running from the Republican anti-Christ and his regime of death...

As a matter of fact, I'm enjoying a bowl right now. :9

for another new haircut.

pimping for Ebay?!? :)

... this planet will be un-idioted.

...was unheard of in CHristianity until the mid-1800's when John Nelson Darby concocted the pre-triubulation rapture doctrine, then proceeded to build a veg-o-matic-like system of Bible interpretation called Dispensationalism. Learned orthodox theologians of the day called it what it was, the "height of speculative nonsense." A lawyer by the name of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield glommed onto the idea and popularized it in America, gaining the interest of one Lewis Sperry Chafer who took the system and founded Dallas Theological Seminary to teach it. I'm not bashing on Dallas guys, my old pastor in MI is a Dallas guy and a really good guy. But I still think the whole Dispensationalistic paradigm that most American evangelicals subscribe to to be seriously flawed and a grave error.

Can't be too active in going about and doing good when you've got your head up your derriere waiting to be evacuated. ;)

Todd in Beerbratistan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2944017&mesg_id=2948165&page=

If the link doesn't work, I believe it was item #52 in this thread.

Eschatology is as valid as any Biblical topic. I had a preacher who echoed your last statement, but he was confused by the sequence of events. The study of the end of the age and the prophesies about them are encouraged by none other that the Messiah himself. To John in Revelation, He said that those who study them are blessed.

I do agree with you that we should be about the business of doing good and being good witnesses.

He did a nice synopsis, too!

reply. I'm mean scripture. "It is written" and all. Not, I know a guy who had a friend and he said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2944017&mesg_id=2953275

:hi:

Come the rapture, how many "Christains" are going anywhere?

I wouldn't be surprised if nobody even noticed.

these people won't be going. They're just evil and not at all the Christians Jesus wanted them to be.

The ones that claim to speak for Jesus the same time they are speaking of hatred and killing others.

I was just being difficult. :)

It's not going to happen.

Signed,

The Rest of the World.

Their dogma tells them they will be with God for eternity. Well, money and possessions are what they worship, so that must be what constitutes heaven for these haters of humanity.

The way I see most of the people who believe in the rapture are the same people who backed a president over a phony war that has killed thousands of people for no damn reason. They better be asking for forgiveness moment by moment to keep up. They skip a day they might be staying on this wonderful plant they believe GOD provided for us after all.

Jesus said it would happen during the lifetime of his followers. (CF Mark 13:30-31, which says, "Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.")

That was nearly 2,000 years ago.

If you want to quibble over the "context", we can do that. I've got a Masters Degree in Divinity with Biblical Languages (two years of Greek and one of Hebrew; reading, writing and translating). A personal note: Even if you are reading in the original language, you still have to translate (or, more properly, transliterate). And despite the intent to get "closer" to the original meaning, you'll have to pick and choose which Greek manuscript is the best.

Then we can talk about pre-, post- and mid-tribulation Rapture fantasies.

By the way, never trust a "follower" of Christ who never quotes Christ's words. Paul never quotes Jesus, even when attempting to convince others. That's like a follower of Elvis who doesn't know any of Elvis's songs!