Signs that our country is becoming increasingly divided:

(1) The left are no longer listening to the conservatives, just as the conservatives stopped listening to the left about the same time that the Newt Gingrich revolution took over in the 90s. In a marriage, when one of the spouses stops responding to his partner, it generally means that he has already made a decision, and is no longer interested in making the marriage work.

(2) The Republicans are making it easier for Democrats to create their own identity because Republicans have closed the door on compromise. Their policies continue to favor their own at the expense of the many. What's more, their retaliatory practices against those they find disloyal, is causing their party to grow smaller as they continue to alienate moderate Republicans.

(3) Left-leaning individuals are increasingly separating from the old guard Democrats as well as status quo media. On any day, I can just as easilly root a Dem in congress for saying the right thing, and condemn him the next for having tea with a right-winger who has a reputation of never compromising.

Anyone else want to contribute?

I see nothing wrong with the 3 points you made. We OUGHT to quit listening to radical neoCons, we OUGHT to create our own identity, and we OUGHT to remove ourselves from the Dem enablers.

I've done that on a small scale in my personal relationships, as I know many, many DUers have. I just simply don't even acknowledge the presence of neoCons in my life. I'm fatigued from arguing, both with them and with the "moderate" Dems who use that same line of thinking. If Iraq cannot change their minds, I have no idea anymore what will.

I fear these people are losing the last shreds of their humanity. :(

I no longer believe I can prevent their fall. I'll be here if they ever want to pick up the pieces of the mess they made of their lives, though.

I have done that on a personal level, too.

I have no relationship with neocons. After my mother in law's last nasty Jane Fonda email (really who GIVES A SHIT about Jane Fonda????) I blocked her email address. That was on November 4th.

I've cut off all communication with about seven friends (former friends) because of their vote for a highly immoral corrupt administration.

And I no longer patronize businesses that I know to be heavily repuke donating. Or repuke owned. AT ALL.

I've become a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International, and sent more money to DFA, DU and other worthy left organizations just since November 2.

They want a war, they'll get it. I'm not blinking.

She spent more time in Vietnam than George Bush or Dick Cheney ever did.

:)

Why did you block her E-mail address----why not just delete?

Or is your relationship lousy anyway?

Haven't seen her since 2000. She lives 1100 miles away. She would send me right wing crap constantly DESPITE the fact that I have asked her and asked her VERY NICELY AND RESPECTFULLY to stop.

Example:

I don't share your feelings on this. Could it be possible for you to leave me off of the to list in the future? I would appreciate it!

Then I'd go on to talk about us, etc, ask about them....and she'd SEND ME ANOTHER anti-liberal, anti-Kerry, pro-bush crappy email!!!

She was doing it on purpose. So I purposely blocked her. After two years of asking her to stop.

The Bush/Cheney Bumper Stickers have disappeared.

This suggests to me that the "word" has been sent to Republicans to eliminate all visible connections with Bush.

Why? I suspect to prevent reprisals.

I live here, too and I find I'm a bit hard-pressed to find any bush stickers anymore. Not that I ever saw enough to prove this was such a red area, anyway. That always had me confused--Texas was supposed to be SO in favor of bush...well, where were all the yard signs and bumper stickers?

Anyway, there are a lot less now. If Kerry had won, you can BET my Kerry sticker would still be on there. As it is, I replaced it with one that says "How many LIES can you take?"

The whole county almost went blue on the red/blue/purple map.


http://www.dalcoelections.org/nov22004/Election_Totals_Final.html

(Eidted to add link)

except for the inevitable B/C '04 bumperstickers, there is a distinct lack of "republican presence" on the streets. They all seem to be hiding in their cheney-style undisclosed locations.

I was at a new client's home yesterday, and the politcal conversation eventually began. I discovered she is a hardcore democrat, and she belongs to all the chat groups, email groups, and so on, and all her online chat partners are also democrats. I told her the next time I have to visit her, she gets a discount (I repair computers).

have APPEARED since 2 november.

there are many more than before....

In Northeast Ohio, most people (it seems) have removed their bumper stickers K/E and B/C. Although I do see more Kerry ones, like one day. I suspect the removal across the board is because election season is over.

Of course your mileage may vary.

I'm sick of looking at them. I see at least twenty or more a day.

and was thinking the same thing, even before the election bush stickers were not that prevalent, not like in 2000 anyways. I was really surprised how few bush signs were in yards this time around, lots more Kerry signs than there were for Gore.

I read that Dallas county went to bush by only 2%.

I have friends in Abilene that say the anti bush crowd there is huge.

It's a thick, concrete wall, built by BushCo.. It's up to the Bush Bots to "tear down that wall". Unfortunately they seem to be in love with the idea. United we stand, divided we fall.

All three of those things are what I see happening, too.

And you can count me strongly in the first group, as we had our satellite service turned off shortly after the election and wrote emails to DirectTV and all the major networks (especially "news" networks) telling them exactly why we are no longer listening to them AT ALL.

These are good things. Turn them off. They are no longer a blip on my radar and it's GOOD.

To see how the media is complicit in keeping us divided, read this article in of all places, the ARTS section of the NY Times.

www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/arts/16rich.html

By just ramrodding their agenda down our throats while our OWN journalists assist them, shows why and how they keep us at each other's throats.

I have to create and account, login, etc. Can you cut and paste the article?

and get a password

reminds me of the email I sent to Safire:
"I questioned whether I was becoming, or perhaps revealing that I am, close-minded since I felt no need to watch the debates and also feel no need to listen to the other side. Yet Bush, and your columns supporting Bush, clearly demonstrate that the "other side" has nothing to say. Bush cannot make an honest argument for the war in Iraq any more than he can honestly admit he was wrong about the WMD. Bush cannot make an honest argument for his tax cuts.
So instead of honestly supporting Bush or honestly criticizing Kerry, you write a column feigning outrage. So the candidate, or supporters of the candidate, who used the "McCain fathered an illegitimate black baby" and the "swift boat veterans for truth" attacks. Those people are going to be outraged about Mary Cheney. Those people are going to be so concerned about her privacy that they keep talking and writing about her. Saying things like:
"the Democratic strategists who concocted this base-suppressing dirty trick orchestrated a defense that it was Dick Cheney who "outed" his daughter months ago."
Well, sir, one of the advantages of that defense is that it happens to be true. I learned about Cheney's daughter from the Kansas City news. (forgot to mention that the KC news did a story on Dick Cheney talking about his daughter being gay.)
Your feigned-outrage shtick needs work."

You are much more eloquent than I am. You said exactly what I've been thinking but didn't know how to say, although I feel it began with Reagan.

discourse going on between the two parties. It got increasingly nastier once the Bush dynasty started.

is that Reagan, and Bush, dah Arnuld, is the best they can come up with. For charming the masses. :eyes:

Ugh.

They are actually an intellectually bankrupt movement. Their vision is basically a lack of vision, hence the reliance on religion, intolerance and misinformation and empty-suit political leaders.

Because whenever they tell a lie, folks believe them because they lack enough understanding of the way the world works to catch them in the lie. But other folks see through the lie so that creates a division that wouldn't be there otherwise.

The only way to unite folks is to tell the truth. Lies divide.

realize how bad * would be for the country and the world. I could forgive them because I told myself they just didn't know any better.
I thought in 2004 they would surely understand and see through the propaganda and do what's right.
They didn't.
I cannot chit-chat blithely with someone who is, IMO, directly responsible for the continuing atrocities this administration is committing on a global scale.
Then there is the fact that they pretty much handed the keys to my body (and the bodies of all women of reproductive age) over to the rich, white, neo-conservative, heterosexual male nazis.

I cannot forget and I cannot forgive.
It is personal, no matter what they tell me.

but get on with the civil war that we all know is comming. Waiting is for pussies.


DownNotOut

Just give us ten years or so to relocate to the states where we can be amongst our own, and then civilly disband the states.

Well, that's the easy way out. But, among civilized people, it beats fighting over differences that will never be resolved.

People are loyal to their home states, home towns and neighborhoods. Red or blue or purple, most people have no interest in dividing the U.S.

It won't happen.

But in Florida, for example, the population is so transient that those kinds of loyalties aren't problematic. In fact, it's because people move in and out so fast around Florida that creates most of our problems for us. Not enough people are tied to the land in the right kind of way.

I was basically a-live-and-let-live type of person before Bush came into power. I was friends with conservatives and believed that everyone was entitled to his/her opinion even if I disagreed with that opinion. However, the Bush presidency has changed all that.

During his first term in office, Bush gave the American people false information about Iraq. Not only were Americans told that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and that there was a link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorist attacks, but also that this war would "a cakewalk." Now, there were many people who opposed this war because they disagreed with this rosy assessment. Many of us easily imagined that this war would turn out like Vietnam or worse. Unfortunately, many conservatives decided not to debate us on the merits of this war but instead attacked our patriotism and character. I will never forgive these conservatives because they were clearly more interested in protecting their beloved leader then promoting the best interests of their nation.

I also can not forgive the many Americans who decided to vote for Bush because they should have known better by the 2004 election. The war in Iraq as well as the torture scandal should have demonstrated to them that Bush is not nice, moral, or even competent. As far as I am concerned, they deserve equal blame for Bush's present and future policies.

I'm with you. Anyone who voted for the Chimperor in 2004 is not worth one second of my time.

What keeps them supporting bad policies made by a bad policy-maker is because they continue to allow others to feed their prejudices. Whether it's against blacks, latinos, gays, muslims -- they are comfortable with their prejudices and will always vote for someone who convinces them that everything that is wrong with America is due to pesky dark skins, instead of looking inward to find the real problems.

In fact, their policies are guaranteed to continue these insular opinions. By heralding private schools over public schools, they encourage educations in institutions which are insular by definition. And believe me, talking to anyone who goes to a private school, you'll find that they have a very sweeping, arrogant opinion of anyone who goes to public school.

If America is going to be globally competitive, then its best and its brightest are not going to come from insulated communities.

No one (including me) is special on this website because they oppose this war. This war is not unusual in that it is unpopular with a large segment of the population, nor is it unusual in that it is becoming more unpopular the longer it goes on. ALL wars that America has fought (except WWII) have been opposed by SIGNIFICANT portions of the public. In fact the first war we fought - the revolution was only supported by 1/3 of the public and in fact 1/3 sympathized with and wanted the other side to defeat us which would have meant a lot more to our society than a pull out from Iraq will.

The second war we fought (War of 1812) almost caused the New England states to secede. In the Civil War we had draft riots in the North in which combat troops had to be diverted to quell. We had a combat general run as a peace canidate in 1864 with a plan to disengage from the South.

We're in an unpopular unnecessary war - it's happened before , unfortunately it will probably happen again.

at least partly.

The internet allows each side to meet on their own and get their news and views in an echo chamber.

There isn't even any shared news anymore. The huge story of the week for one side is not even known by the other side because they're all hopped up about their own huge story of the week.

The nonsensical conspiracy theories are echoed and hyped on one side while the other side doesn't know anything about them because they're deeply into their own tin foil hat nonsense.

The internet is wonderful for connecting like-minded people, but also bad in separating them from other people.

solution. In the 90s, the freepers organized on the net. So did townhall.com and other right-wing organizations. Then Fox came about. If the left is using it now, it's only because the right succeeded in defining the term "liberal," to the point that no one who is really liberal can identify a liberal on cable or network news. And speaking of cable and network, what good are they when they went straight for sensational news? If the Internet is a problem child, then cable and network news is their Sodom and Gomorrah parents.

they all divide us.

When I was a kid everyone at school saw the same tv shows at night. We all talked about them. There were only three channels after all.

Now even the top shows only have tiny percentages of people watching them.

It's good we have choices, but it separates us. It takes away out common experiences.

The internet does that times ten. Five people can spend their lives on the internet and never cross sites with each other.

It's great if you're interested in small mouth bass fishing, and your wife will strangle herself if you mention it again. You can find a place where people share your love.

But it comes with its problems too. When you see so many like minded people together, you can see your group as much more than it is. It becomes an echo chamber which can deceive.

and when we get to see that information. We know about Sibel Edmonds, they don't. We knew about the bin Laden family flights out of the country three years before they did. We know about Tom Delay's integrity problems; they probably have no clue how devious he is. We know that Carlisle and Jim Baker are big players in this game; they have no clue, probably never heard of Carlisle.

It goes on and on and on. You know FoxNews won't give them the truth; but when CNN and MSNBC are also withholding information, then you can only see the internet as the real source for Americans who want to be informed.

For me, Chris Matthews is just as bad as Tucker Carlson. He's conservative and doesn't dig deep enough to help the American people find their way to the truth. He's no Democrat. He's a whore who will do and say whatever will pay his mortgage in Nantuckett.

just don't know all the stuff that they know.

And both sides say the other is stupid and uninformed, and they are smarter and better.

People just talk past each other today.

There aren't enough shared experiences.

Not our fault that those two cable networks have decided to become whores for Bush. It's like Fahrenheit 451. We're relegated to the internet, reciting the written words that others have banned.

with their two kids. I shall not be home! Period!

I already know his politics, and hers, and I have no intention of setting eyes on *either* of them. I shall leave the morning they call and won't be back until My partner phones Me to say that they are gone!

If I *never* speak to him, his wife, their kids, it would be a blessing!

Lady Sonelle

:)

... what would Jesus do? Storm into somebodies house and deliberately offend their host?

You're not seeing any Democrats or Republicans changing sides. A few Democrats here and there will 'flip' to the other side, but it feels like an anomaly now. Republicans are the side that's showing some kind of inner disintegration- they're not coming over just yet, they're starting to argue with each other, it's like hillside soil getting soaked and turning mushy- at some point there's bulk slippage and disintegration.

the dicredited nixon administration, reagan signaled a sea change.
conservatives want no peace with leftists, liberals, social democrats in this country.

to believe otherwise is simply not recognizing that it's become a dangerous neighborhood -- things change -- and not always for the better.

this is one of those times, maybe the apex, maybe not.

i'm not arguing anymore -- i won't or try not to -- have aything to do with conservatives.

they simply don't deal honestly.

For many reasons, I avoid confrontation. Mostly because, as a member of a minority group, I know that my anger will only be construed as "having a chip on my shoulder." They're not listening, anyways, so I avoid them. This has caused a problem for my hubby, because, living in a predominately Republican county and married to a man whose siblings are Republican, I avoid a lot. It's gotten to the point where I really have no where to turn, which is why I'm pushing for a move. Well, that's one of many reasons.

He doesn't understand. He says he would just tell someone off and walk away. I told him that if people knew how I really felt about them, it would only make things worse, not better.

I've heard are not appropriate for polite conversation. I forgot who said it, but if I'm around friends or family to the right of me, I just change the subject or tell them I don't want to hear about it. They usually drop it.

about there having "always been" popular opposition to American wars, and I have to shake my head. Yes, that statement is technically true. It was the invasion of Mexico that caused Thoreau to camp out at Walden Pond for two years in protest. Thomas Paine had to stir the people up in order to achieve the Revolution--it took a lot of arguing and persuading, and even then, if the French hadn't joined us, we probably would've lost. Most of the population didn't want anything to do with it. Washington's mother considered him a traitor.

But such statements, while historically accurate, are misleading. The situation in our country today is such as it has never before been in its history. There has never been a time when one Party owned the entire government, plus the majority of the states, plus the corporations that drive the machine, plus the media that sways people's opinions. The Founders never even conceived of such a thing ever happening. As a result, comparing our times with past times is a somewhat naive way of looking at things.

No, after watching the Republicans not only becoming installed in 2000, but actually gaining seats in 2002 and 2004; and based on my conversations with Republicans I know--who happen to constitute a majority of my acquaintances, and even most of my family--I have concluded that, although I believe there was voter fraud on their part, the neoCon animalism is what the country really wants. I think that's why there isn't any outrage about the voting irregularities. At least some of these things have been reported in the MSM, but no one cares. And as was also pointed out above, Abu Ghraib should have put the country out on the streets, demanding the resignation of the entire administration.

I don't believe that I can sway a single mind that is so deeply self-absorbed. All I can do now is live as strongly as possible in accordance with my humanistic values. Perhaps that was all I ever really could do. Perhaps I spent the last four years too strongly attached to outcomes, instead of simply going about "doing good", as so many of the great religious and social leaders of the past had done, and as the modern ones continue to do.

I know one thing for absolute certain: My peace of mind has increased since I ceased arguing with these haters of humanity.

An absolutely magnificent post! Thank you.

The crowd in charge are RADICAL REPUBLICANS. not your normal republicans.

Interestingly, the Republicans I know whom I always considered to be "normal" conservatives--and with whom I used to debate political and social issues--have since turned, even going so far as to vote for Kerry.

The Party is no longer Republican.

I find myself unable to unite with people who support the current Republican party. They are fascists. They allowed 9.11 to happen (they did NOT keep us safe) so they could rape and pillage the weak. They torture people for fun. They spy on us.

How can I possibly get behind their agenda? I would be a fool to do so, no?

In addition to all the crimes they've committed, I also find myself just plain repulsed by them BECAUSE THEY ARE SO UNCOOL.

John Ashcroft singing "Let the eagle soar." What a freak, he gives me the creeps.

I've looked at Richard Perle and heard his voice through my t.v. My skin crawled.

Joe Scarborough? Who wants to party with that guy? Rush Limbaugh, ick. Chris Matthews is a pervert, just like Bill O'Reilly (sweet jesus I hate bill o'reilly.)

Bill Bennett, good god, not an original or interesting thought in his life.

If they don't kill me with their creepiness, they will bore me to death.

Unite with those guys? Fat chance.