Is single-sex schooling a good idea?

I have been following all the discussion of Larry Summers and some women have pointed out that the proportional lack of females in scientific fields is due to the fact that they are discouraged fairly early. Others pointed out that this discouragement is not present in all girls schools.

It is also clear that more women are getting into college and graduating from college. And I also beleive that more women than men are graduating from professional schools in recent years (but not positive about that fact).

That said, would segregating the sexes make sense at least in K-12? Girls would not be discouraged and boys would get an education more suited to them? Or would this just create a seperate-but-equal system where girls get the worst of everything.

but simpLy, because i can't separate the idea of singLe sex schooLs from the cathoLic diocese.

My answer is a resounding NOOOOOO!!!!

All it did was made me incompetent around woman for the first few years of college.

ignorant and incapable of supporting themselves.

:evilgrin:

is better in primary education. all the elite know this all to well, and do not want us commoners to have the same advantages.

..in higher edu. the answer is NO!

Emma Willard in NY is a great example and i intend to enroll my daughter in 06...on scholarships
www.emma.troy.ny.us/

There are advantages and disadvantages. But if you choose that for your child I don't think it's a bad idea.
Women do better in same sex classes. I don't know if boys do. But the draw back is that natural socialization is then not there for them.

I am not sure k-12 would be necessary. Maybe 4th - 10th. It is the middle school years where the real problems are.

The problem with single sex in my opinion is when boys especially get around girls for the first time they are just so goofy. If you are used to girls being in your presence it's not a big deal to ask one out on a date. This social awkwardness will make the boys college experience an empty one. On the other hand, I know there is a mountain of information on the pros of single sex education that I have not personally read. Go to a school that is single sex, and they will give you a stack of journal articles to read that supports their position.

Studies have shown that same-sex education can be extremely beneficial in the K-8 school years, but its value is less apparent in the high-school years. As far as college goes, I don't think it really matters much, because at that level those who would excel will excel any way, IMO.

Disclaimer: I attended a single-sex high school and college.

But, I'm not expert in the educational field. The problem is more about teaching methods and how the child is raised away from school... if you're raised in a fundie home that says girls should aspire to be obedient housewives that produce lots of babies for their breadwinner husbands, I don't think anything can overcome that.

I think interacting with the opposite sex from an early age is very important for both sexes.

To be honest, many of our top universities have science & math departments that are dominated by Chinese, Korean & Indian students, anyhow... so, we need to not just encourage girls to enter in these fields, we also need to encourage our boys as well.

and if anyone recalls, it used to be the norm and people fought it because they felt it was unfair.

I know a fellow who went to a predominantly female college because it was the only school locally that offered the program he was interested in..

because I went to an all-women's college. I majored in math and chemistry, I had women professors who mentored me, and made it possible for me to succeed. I was in a large public high school and I did extremely well in math and science there, too but I was quiet and shy and would never raise my hand. It was so different in college, so supportive. Hilariously, I was the only woman in my medical school back in the good old days when women were not welcome. The guys were great and I did fine but there was not one single female professor to mentor me....I didn't see one until internship. I think the real reason there is a lack of women in these fields is sexism, plain and simple. If you think all these guys are Einstein or Feynman, think again. They are not smarter than us, just given more push.

learn the lesson that "they" do not want us commoners to know

boys wont know how to interact with girls and vice versa. no i dont think this is the answer

We are talking about half of the race here. There are lots of chances to meet girls.

What if kids in co-ed schools were given options of same-sex or mixed classes in math and science (or Home Ec and Shop :evilgrin:)?

Oh, I KNOW... MUCH TOO EXPENSIVE!

Girl Scouts is the extent of my same-sex education. LOVED IT. As for school I had MANY more difficulties with teachers who were outraged (I tell you, simply OUTRAGED) that there was a brown spot in their classroom...

for one reason and one reason only - it helps kids stay focused on school and not so much on being "popular" or in the case of a girls - a ho in order to be "popular".


i also like school uniforms. cuts out the competition, and keep everybody ont he same footing.



having bene in both catholic school and public school - i felt much less inadequate in catholic school.

The curriculum of a school is more than the course of study. The curriculum of a school is everything that happens in the building, planned and unplanned, intentional and unintentional, that is experienced by the students. There's an invisible curriculum that never gets put in the handbook, or the school's web site.

In a society where precocious sex is the norm, dating violence is present in 1/3 of relationships, women are routinely objectified by men, and homophobia is rampant, you put -- and in many cases compel the attendence of -- boys and girls in the same building, 7 hours a day, 180 days a year, then the school is responsible in no small part for the results.

The argument is made all the time that if boys don't have girls around, they won't learn how to treat them as people. Well, when they have girls around, as they do under the present system, they are trained -- trained to treat them as meat, as comfort-girls, and as inferiors -- not in the classroom, but in the halls, on the busses, in the cafeteria.

In coed schools, boys make up 60% of failures, 70% of suspensions, and 90% of expulsions. These are not the characteristics of institutions systematically biased in favor of boys.

Oh, and I'd make the same argument about our invisible curriculum of brain-dead consumerism, and apply it to school uniforms.

I'm a 30-year member of Democratic Socialists of America, a member of the ACLU for twenty, on this board since the Florida fiasco, so please spare me the 'Freeper' name-calling. I'm member of the National Educational Association. I've taught 7-12 for 20 years -- public and private, co-ed and single-sex. Public single-sex would be my choice every time, if such things existed.

By this I mean would certain classrooms and class times be for one sex than the other (9:00 science in room 201 by Ms. Apple is boys, 10:00 science in room 201 by Ms. Apple is girls) OR completely seperate physical plant (Jackson School on Third Street is Girls, Harding School on Fifth is boys)?

The egregious stuff happens in halls, cafeterias, playing fields, etc. and that's not addressed by the first.

Make the staff flip a coin every fall to see who gets which building the boys get, or girls get, so the new building doesn't go to the same gender every year.....

for the same reasons, as well.

Chiefly because it completely ignores the larger issues of gender inequality in society and how women, in general are treated. Segregating the sexes in education is the equivalent of throwing your hands up and saying "I surrender!"

My parents have been in education for a combined 60 years and think there is some merit to classes segregated by sex. (My dad has always stated that boys should be locked away at age 13 and not let out until they turn 16 and start behaving like human beings. I think he was joking. I'm not sure).

I don't think you would necessarily need a total split between students. And I'm not sure you even need to do it for all subjects. I don't think you run into these problems of intimidation and sexism in history classes for example. But I would be curious to see the results of a school were children were segragated by sex in math, science, and literature in grades 6 - 11. By Grade 12, you are pretty well formed as a person and these issues are not as prominent.

(For the record, I find the "socialization" argument to be the last refuge of a scoundrel on this issue. As pointed out earlier, it's not like we are training well-socialized people under the current system. You've got twelve year old girls giving boys blowjobs because kissing is too intimate).

Private schools have been offering single-sex education for generations, as other posters have noted. Those schools are some of the best in the world.

Now there's a push on for single-sex education in the public schools, and that troubles me a bit. I think there's much more risk of students and families being strong-armed into something they wouldn't have chosen otherwise. And more risk that it will be implemented for all the wrong reasons: "girls take home-ec," for example, or "all boys have behavior problems."

Some resources, if you're researching the topic:

http://www.singlesexschools.org

http://www.ncgs.org/type0.php?pid=16

http://www.boysschoolscoalition.org

separate but equal shit a long time ago?

Teachers must remain vigilant and kept aware of gender discrimination tendencies.
Women now make up majority numbers in law schools and many medical schools, and it AIN'T because they all went to gender segregated schools!

You can segregate -- it's done all the time -- if you can pass the 'strict scrutiny' test.

a.) a compelling state interest
b.) the solution is narrowly tailored to address the interest.
c.) no less intrusive solution exists


Why can you Consitutionally restrict alcohol purchases to +21 when all the other indicia of legal majority are conferred at 18? Why is it constitutional to have a draft that excludes women?

You've placed a burden, or conferred a reward, on a discrete group, based on an immutable characteristic over which the victim has no control, in both cases, despite the 14th amendment equal protection clause.

We're talking about schooling here. Not the draft.

http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/enlight/brown.htm

done specifically for girls to foster an environment that overcomes what many think are natural classroom biases in favor of boys.

They are usually started by the liberal advocates within a school district. This recently started in the Dallas Independent School District.

the biases had to be ACKNOWLEDGED to be addressed. And they ARE being addressed. What think you of this:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_ourschools_092002gendergap.html

...and a dramatic change from twenty years ago.

Boys don't 'do school' -- or at least don't do school at a very high level.

This is all anecdotal, but most teachers will bear me out...

• Our ski team can't get any boys -- downhill is 17 girls, two boys. Eligibility (i.e. no failures) has benched all but two boys.
• We haven't had a male valedictorian in seven years.
  
• The top ten haven't been 5-5 or better in the boys' favor in ten years.
• The math team last year had one boy.
• We've had an all-girl AB Calculus AP class twice in the last five years.
  
• Boys State had two unfilled slots last year -- Girls State was oversubscribed twice over.

This is rural Maine -- I can see Mt. Washington when I'm on bag-the-smokers-and-no-making-out-in-the-parking-lot duty. The boys aren't being lured away by high-paying employment for which no diploma is needed -- the local mill (specialty textiles) closed three years ago, the local shoe factory two years ago, and their production workers were mostly women.

Something is desperately wrong.

feted and promoted over girls in the classroom anymore (however UNCONSCIOUS that process was before it was clinically proven to be a factor in the classroom).

Hell, even I had to watch MYSELF in educational situations, and I'm a feminist with two daughters!

We need to work on treating each other and ours with equality.
I won't put up with the "Girls Rule" crap around my house.

and see this trend reflected in industries. Sadly, in my field of engineering (and other math and science-related fields) we don't see anything close to this trend in the colleges much less industry. Programs similar to the one I referenced in Dallas, hopefully will remedy this problem.

awareness, not separation, is the answer.

I'm for any voluntary, monitored experimentation that will close this gap for women in high-tech industries. In the long-run I would hope that separation is not the norm.

On edit: What I found "fine" from your original article was the disparity reported in the article. I at least don't find it disturbing unless it is because of a large loss of male students. Then, nothing is really being gained by the female students.

....that doesn't violate Brown, and you'll have briefed my case for single-sex public schools.

It's a two-edged sword.

Why? Because I think it doesn't reflect the real world we are living in. It would just make it more difficult for kids later to merge into the society.

Boys and girls can actually learn from each other socially, and academically. It's good for their mental health. You would never get that kind of good experience out of the single sex school.

I think parents guidance is more important than what school you go to. Proper parents' guidance and control can also prevent bad things from happening.

Private and/or religious schools, that is.

But I wonder at "experimenting" with the public schools. Wouldn't setting up seperate facilities be a bit expensive? How many districts have the money?

but i believe in sex separate education{just not run by calvinist freaks or anything}, and i believe in uniforms.
with a heavy emphasis on the humanities.
a pretty classical approach.
though not necessarily an emphasis on the classics -- just the form.
i.e. in a girls school it would make sense to emphasize women authors, etc.
but funny enough -- i don't believe in standardised testing -- learning is individual.

I agree completely.

to send my daughter to. I went to one that combined with the local all-boy school my sophomore year, and the atmosphere was MUCH more conducive to learning in a same-sex environment. Education remains at the forefront when there isn’t the immediate concern over boys as an ever present distraction.

I think it’s an excellent option and I only wish ours hadn’t combined.

Boys tend to dominate the Q&A in many classrooms, and girls sometimes hesitate to participate (especially in math and science classes). Teachers and administrators being aware of the gender bias and correcting for it is only fixing part of the issue.

I attended co-institutional schools (Catholic ones) K-12; boys and girls were on different sides of the same buildings and had separate classes, separate principals throughout; in high school, the cafeteria was common as were the after school clubs and activities. There was more than enough socialization between us, before school, at lunch, and after school; we didn't suffer any social ills by being in separate classes.

IMHO.

This is a tricky issue to negotiate obviously, but if you feel your daughter would do better in a single-sex classroom, why not let that be an option? The research on this is leaning in that direction.

I don't think it should be mandatroy in any way, shape or form however.

Before embracing the concept of single-sex eduction, we might want to determine whether these students are doing better because they are at single-sex schools or because they are at private schools. Unlike public schools, private schools are not required to accept all students. This provides private schools with an advantage over public schools because they can select students who test well and are fairly bright. Private schools can also offer smaller class-sizes than public schools so students will receive more attention from their teachers.

I also am afraid that if we allow the public school districts to offer boys-only and girls-only schools or classes, girls will be cheated. On another thread about Summers, posters listed the classes that they were not able to take while they were growing up simply because of their sex. Fortunately, it is currently illegal for public schools to discriminate against students on the basis of sex.

However, allowing states to create schools for only one sex does not guarantee that these schools would offer their students equal opportunities. For example, there is no guarantee that an all-girls-school would even offer students the opportunity to take shop or AP Calculus. Unfortunately, the growing influence of Christian Fundamentalism on our schools boards increases the likelihood that all-girls-schools would be substandard.