People: Bush is NOT Hitler.

Okay, I know he IS a bastard. I won't dispute that. I know he has done some terrible things, and probably devastated our country for years to come, and that's just the prologue.

But Bush is NOT as bad as Hitler. These comparisons do NOTHING to help our cause. It didn't help when MoveOn.org did it, and it's not helping now. It drives away moderates, and does NOT energize our base. In short: it hurts us.

Bush has NOT rounded up people into camps. He has NOT turned America into a police state.

In Hitler's Germany, if you disagreed with him, you were sent to a camp. You didn't come back.

In Bush's America, if you disagree, you have a very heated argument before you are told your sources have no credibility because they aren't Fox News.

In Hitler's Germany, if you weren't Anglo-Saxon, you, at best, were discriminated against in every way. Jews had to wear yellow stars to identify themselves. At worst, you were sent to death camps.

In Bush's America, if you aren't a white male, you are probably discriminated against, but not on the level of Hitler's Germany. Don't believe me?

When was the last time you ever heard of an American Krystalnaucht? Or perhaps you've heard of gays' and blacks' businesses being nationalized and them being forced into ghettos? Or maybe there are people who have been funneled into forced labor camps who you know?

There are similarities of course. Both use demagoguery to gain support, but Bush simply uses it to pass laws. Hitler actively KILLED SIX MILLION people based on his bigoted delusions.

What Bush has done is wrong. I emphatically agree with this. He is a bastard, and is our worst president. He deserves to be impeached.

But he is not ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL THE IRAQIS. He is not so monstrous that he kills people simply because he can.

Make no mistake. I am not endorsing this bastard. He is going to hell. He is a corrupt, egotistical fuckbrain. What he is doing in Iraq is wrong in every way. But. . .

Let me repeat this: BUSH IS NOT HITLER. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE HITLER. HE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HITLER OR HIS AGENDA.

Bush just wants to rob this country blind. Period. No imperialistic ambitions, no grandiose crusades for Christ. He just wants to help his cronies get as much money as they can, regardless of the legality or morality of its obtainment.

He just wants to take this country's money for the rich. Period.

Every time a DU'er say's 'Bush is Hitler' or compares the two, it makes me, and A LOT of other voters, sick.

You dishonor the many millions of people killed by Hitler. You dishonor these victims as much as Bush does the 9-11 victims every time he invokes 9/11 to pass a law or gain 'political capital'. It is wrong. Bush is not the monster Hitler was.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to put on a flame proof suit.

on edit: grammar and clarity.

shrub has only been in power 4 years. it took hitler a while to escalate


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

Hitler was in power for 12 years, and it took him another 11 before that to obtain it.

Bush is here for 8 years, and he's gone.

And the elections are clearly a farce now.

Can you say Ahnuld? It's all part of the plan folks...gives me chills just knowing the guy is our Governor....he's ruining the state and some people here just get all whipped up for the guy when they see his starpower....scary....

:scared: i hope so, my friend...


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

industrialized country on the planet.

Create an emergency, and all bets are off. He owns the Congress, the Judiciary, and the Executive branches, there are no checks and balances anymore.

Personally, I wouldn't bet on that.

Hitler was only supposed to be in office for a term, too.

claiming that there would be no election in 2004 and Bush would cancel them and declare himself dictator.

Now since that turned out wrong I guess it's time to start up the no election in 2008 threads after Bush declares himself dictator.

he's a figure head just like Reagan was. The power behind the throne is what is important.

I have always believed that Reagan was the front guy just like Bush. Same people running the bush administration were also in his.
To think that they would even consider giving up their power under any curcumstances, well, people are just dreaming. What they have started they have wanted forever, and they are not about to turn over the reigns to people not of like mind.

But yes things are THAT serious folks. Don't even try to fool yourself that we are not in just as much if not more danger from these people.

There is already serious talk of Constitutional Amendments to either allow the Governator to take over, or to allow Bush more terms of office.

Adolf Hitler was all in favor of WWI and went to War in 1916 when his country called.

Asshole Bush was in favor of the Viet-Nam War, but opted out.

Other than that, there's not much difference.

...he just plays one on TV

gets to revise the Consitution. I remember hearing he tried sometime after his first election. Did anybody hear this or is it just a rumor?

his country and destroyed their freedoms. It didn't take him long to remove progressive measures and turn his country into a fascist police state.

Also, he started at the bottom.

Bush was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

but hitler had a country in depression to work with. he could upset the natural order with not as much resistance. america was in good shape (well, relatively) when shrub took over, so its not as easy to change. im not saying he WILL, god i hope not, but it is a different environment


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

who opposed him. Bush doesn't. He's tied up his forces in Iraq. He can't use them. And, contrary to most opinions here, most moderates and some conservatives wouldn't let him have the type of control that he'd need to implement a dictatorship.

he was popularly elected. and with corporate giants under his control, bush doesn't need a physical military force. and, imagine a terror emergency, multiple attacks on the US. decleration of martial law. no undeclaration. when people are in fear, they do not think clearly


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

but bush still has (relatively) legitamate power. we haven't reached a point yet where he has to do anything to keep it. four years is a long time


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

true with 9/11....

:hi:

He only has to be a tiny bit as bad to do worse damage.

He is removing progressive measures at blinding speed: voting rights (see 2000, 2004), personal liberties (Patriot Act, among others), progressive taxation, and next up is the corporatization of Social Security. Are you paying attention?

filibuster. I'm not saying they will. But they can.

Nobody in Hitler's Germany could veto his options. No body could filibuster them.

*is not Hitler. Okay, he's not. But do you deny the fascism that has overtaken our system of government?

I'm not flaming, I don't flame anyone. I just want to be clear on your thoughts.

Up his nose.

is if people try to make the argument that he's somehow less than a Hitler.

He is not.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Hitler won an election.

But otherwise, the similarities are amazing. Bush _has_ rounded people up into death camps, and they have disappeared perhaps forever. Have you forgotten Guantanamo and Abu Graib?

Bush presents a multiracial facade, but on the ground, he actively promotes racism. Twice he has had his brother Jeb purge thousands of legitimate voters from the roles, based on database criteria which correlate to, or directly reveal, race. In Ohio his minions disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of voters on racial lines, by targeting specific neighborhoods, for example.

Bush is murdering and torturing hundreds of thousands of Iraqui men women and children, most of whom have done nothing more egregious than get in the way of a bomb or a bullet. He is not up to 6 million yet, but clearly he has no more compassion for Arabs than Hitler had for Jews.

Just yesterday, Bush's Republinazis proudly and unanimously endorsed torture, be elevating Bush's Mengele (Gonzales) to high office.

Bush has not yet caught up to Hitler's numbers, but he is "working hard" to do so.

And let us not forget the importance of the media, and their part in the propaganda machine. True, Hitler had the Dept. of propaganda, with * it is more of every Federal dept. contains and administers the information that the WH wants the public to have.

* 'Journalists' on the administration's payroll to "get out a message"

* A non-journalists (but posing to be one, no one really knows who he is) has access to WH briefings. Before he asks his 'softball questions', he makes statements criticizing any one who would question the administration.

* Items that would have been important stories 20 years ago, get maybe a 5 second statement read twice on the MSM before they disappear from American journalism forever.

* MSM that outright critisizes a dissenting line of thought or issue

* MSM simply ignoring--blackout--of major news stories.

All other political parties were outlawed. Jewish businesses were boycotted. German Trade Unions were dissovled. Thousands of anti-Nazi Jewish-authored and "degenerate" books were burned.

http://www.english.uwosh.edu/henson/TBIS/nazitimeline.html

And that was just in his first year of power.

Redistricting Texas, privately promoting the recall in California, the longshore strike, privatizing fed jibs to further weaken unions...I see LOTS of corollaries..the Dixie Chicks..etc..things take longer in a population of over 300 million

The republicans were just doing what they could to increase their influence. It's not right, but it's politically tactful.

The Dems can still oppose Bush. They can still stand up. The opposition in Germany didn't exist four years after Hitler took power.

They 'technically' still exist here, if they'd actually do something.

that couldn't hold up to a LARGE population and our constitution. Our very form of government IS under attack by these people.

There ARE comparisons that are valid...and those have been pointed out to you ad nauseum on this thread.

when you can marginalize them?

would not exist.

Many of us would have disappeared.

Democratic legislators would have been removed from the congress.

Opposition leaders would have disappeared or been assasinated.

The very fact that you can write that Bush is Hitler proves that he is not.

www.newamericancentury.org

I don't buy for a minute that he's just some dumb guy who rose to power by relying on his family name, and that he just abrogates everything to more sinister masterminds with whom he surrounds himself. I lived in Texas when he was governor there, and he definitely has agendas and ideas. He may be working to advance the agenda of the PNAC and the Dominionists but I truly believe those are the ideas he supports as well.

Yes, Bush is not shipping people off to concentration camps (though people are "disappearing" to be held in places like Gitmo, and there have been reports that people are being murdered there). In that sense the Bush-Hitler link seems overblown. But the conditions in this country are ripe for a state like Nazi Germany to happen again (seen any of the Freeper posts about putting liberals in internment camps?) and we have a president who *knows* this. Said president also has a long family history of supporting Hitler's regime. Also, remember all the pics from the We're Not Sorry site in which people were making threats against liberals and showing off their many firearms? We've now had at least two cases of seriously mismanaged elections in which there may have been outright fraud, people are being held without access to lawyers, tortured in our prisons despite not being convicted of anything, and for the most part the American people has just rolled over and yawned. We have a way too sizable percentage of Americans that are willing to disregard their Constitutional rights for the sake of "safety from terrorism". We have a society in which people are cowed by fear and want to silence dissidents, and a president who is a megalomaniac. The potential for another Holocaust is too great.

The Ward Churchill story is being used to distract from this fact AND the war crimes charges against Rumsfeld in Germany AND the committee demanding release of CIA documents of US complicity with Nazi war crimes by March 2005.

The committee was formed in 1998 and supposed to expire in 3/05.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/hr071498/holtzman.html
(Testimony on H.R. 4007 The Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act 7/14/1998)

Since the CIA is stonewalling, Richard Ben Veniste just went public in the NYT European online edition to compel the CIA to cough up before the demise of the committee in 3/05.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/30/international/europe/30nazis.html
(New York Times, CIA Rebuffs Request for Nazi War Crime Documents)

So true to Operation Mockingbird's CIA-steered media tactics, the Churchill diversionary story has been inflamed to channel outrage towards him and away from the topic of US-Nazi ties and war crimes.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html
(Operation Mockingbird: The Subversion of the Free Press by the CIA)

In fact, Churchill himself may be intentionally distracting since academia is filled with CIA infiltration and budget reliance.
http://www.cia-on-campus.org/
(The CIA on Campus)

The US bankers at Harriman Brown Bros. including Grandpa Prescott Bush financed the rise of Hitler and then ran the Marshall Plan after the complete destruction of Europe, thereby making the US the dominant economic power on the planet. This is what was done with Saddam, too.
Prescott Bush went on to be a US Senator despite having his financial holdings confiscated in 1942. That should tell you something.


http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2
(Bush-Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951-Federal Documents)

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/
(Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Antony Sutton)

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm
(The Rise of American Fascism by Geoff Price)

http://www.padrak.com/alt/BUSHBOOK.html#BOOKPARTS
(George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography - see section 2)


(1938 Better Homes and Gardens, A William Randolph Hearst publication)

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051601a.html
(Nazis in the US, the Consortium News)

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
(The Nazi Hydra in America)

aka Joe Kennedy

http://clickit.go2net.com/search?pos=2&ppos=0&plnks=0&uplnks=20&cat=web&cid=239171&site=srch&area=srch.noncomm.google&shape=textlink&cp=info.dogpl&cluster-click=0&pd=0&coll=1&query=joe+kennedy+%2B+nazi&rawto=http://hnn.us/articles/697.html

real?

You summed up my feelings completely. I wish I was that eloquent.

Hats off to you.:thumbsup:

Adolf Hitler in His Own Words:
Cruelty is impressive. Cruelty and brutal strength. The masses want it. They demand it. They need the thrill of terror to make them shudderingly submissive. -Adolf Hitler

The joy of killing brings men together. -Adolf Hitler

When I came to power, I did not want the concentration camps to become old age pensioners homes, but instruments of terror. -Adolf Hitler

Hate, hate, and more hate. There is nothing that sustains you like hate! -Adolf Hitler

My morality is that of the magnificent blond beast, roaming wantonly in seach of prey and victory. -Adolf Hitler

Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians. It is an honorable title. -Adolf Hitler

We shall not capitulate... no never. We may be destroyed, but if we are, we shall drag a world with us... a world in flames. -Adolf Hitler
HITLER'S DIARIES

Give Bush the power to do whatever he wants and you'll see wars occuring throughout the world. Since Bush will absolutely leave office in 4 years there's no way he can become a 'Hitler' so you are right, they aren't the same because Bush won't have the chance to conquer the world.

want, and leave.

Hitler went in and began exterminating the populace that wasn't Third Reich material.

But he taught valuable lessons, that if Bush follows, might save him from self immolation.

How do you know? Because the Constitution sez? Bwahahahahahahaha!!:silly:

Hitler was a world-class mass murderer and unfathomably evil. He conquered huge parts of Europe and planned to conquer the world.

Bush on the other hand is a much more small-scale mass murderer, with only 100K innocent lives under his belt, and he's only conquered one country. He has turned our country into an Orwellian dictatorship, not one as brutal as the nazis had.

He's an evil, disgusting man, though, and he deserves to be compared with killers the likes of Mussolini and Pinochet.

We still have free speech. The constitution hasn't been shredded despite Ashcroft's best attempts. And, of course, you can still think for yourself.

And "free speech" is the way the dictatorship gets away with calling itself "free".

Sure, you're free to shout from the rooftops, but corporate power will continue to control all media and squelch all MEANINGFUL dissent.

Maureen Dowd still writes her anti-Bush columns for the NY Times.

Air America sound familiar?

How about 'Rathergate'? Where was the corporate Media supressing that?

You think Hitler's Germany began the way it ended? Things change in incriments. Changes here, changes there, less freedom here, no free elections, invading country's for their resources, big lies to convince the people of their righteousness. They have to get people used to these changes before they go onto the bigger ones. You know the saying about the vat of oil. You put somebody into it when it's boiling, and it's exruciating. However, you slowly bring it up to a bowl and you become more accustomed to it as the temperature rises.

How many internment camps do you think we have in other countrys? How many people are being held there and tortured? Do we know? Do we care? How many are dying as we speak? Do we care? Or are we slowly becoming used to it? It doesn't really shock us that much anymore. A little information gets leaked out here and there and before you know it, it's no longer that big a deal.

....most clueless Americans think FEMA is just the nice agency that hands out blankets, checks and generators and water after an emergency like a flood or hurricane. Few realize that they have mass authority and property's that are "containment" camps across the country, which now being under the Homeland Security Dept include handling the population in a state of emergency......Picture another 9/11 scenario and they have to detain people for their own good and safety....

At least 90% of what you see and read in corporate media is pro-Bush.

Does that make sense when nearly half the populace is against him (and even more would be if the media were doing their job).


A few dissenting voices drowned out amid the roar of a hundred rightwing pundits is not meaningful. It's manufactured consent exactly as laid out in Chomsky's book.

Where & how?? Protesters are now placed in a "free speech zones", so that the media will not have to include them in the story of what is going on ie. the republican convention & the inauguration. Our views are not allowed to be discussed in the MSM, unless we are met with a "journalist" who marginalizes us from the get-go; these forums are only open to us when they feel as though they have an arena where they can adequately neuter us/and or our views.

On another vein of the same subject, we are just learning about the black-ball list. Some good American soul saw fit to leak a list of persons who were black-balled from an appearance that * was speaking at in Fargo. These were not people who were a danger to *, just simply people who have written letters to the editors of newspapers against the policies of this administration. Oh, but it seems to be more than a simple list, it appears as though there is investigation and dossiers compiled...does this set off ANY red flags to you??

At what point do you begin to connect the dots?

Backing out quietly, but before I go,

no, Bush isn't interested in Hitler's "styles". Bush's are much more obscure, but just as deceitful and malicious.

to them by a citizen as part of a contest for commercial clips. They NEVER used it in any of their ads. That's RW propaganda, please don't spread it here.

And in Bush's America, women and the poor are certainly headed for second-class citizenship. They don't need to construct concentration camps to accomplish this.

And if he is not actively trying to kill Iraqis, then what are we doing there? Serving tea? He may not be actively killing them using Hitler's exact motivations, but his motivation for killing them is just as base: money. He is every bit as monstrous as we declare him to be.



Period.

and Hitler. I told him to visit some progressive websites to find out about Kerry last year. That ad turned him FAR away from Kerry. It took everything I had to recover that.

The women and poor are becoing second class citizens. I won't argue that. But they have a choice. They could have voted for Bush, or voted for Kerry, or not voted at all. They made their choice.

And we're robbing the Iraqis. That's what were doing. The Iraqis who stand up to stop us are the ones getting killed, along with many innocent bystanders. He is a bastard, but not a Hitler.

submission that was deleted as soon as the admins of the site became aware of it.

I have a feeling that guy's father is lying just a little bit.

Bush has presided over the killing of over 100,000 people (so far), and got his 'trifecta' with 9-11. Maybe killing people and invading nations don't rank up there with you, but does killing your own citizens?

It's not just the Bush voters among the women and the poor who will become second-class citizens. It's ALL women and ALL poor. So their poor choice certainly affects me as well. He is on his way to being Hitler, and I frankly don't care who may be horrified by the comparison.

is what your argument is growing.

What a remarkable and splendid coinkydink about your dad! You do remember, I trust, since I am sure you visited Moveon many times yourself, that the infamous Hitler ad was one of hundreds. How amazing that your dad was able to single it out, and be so outraged!

As for what women and the poor did or did not do, that's beside the point. The issue is what Boosh is doing. For all the "Hitler was elected" stuff, the fact is that Hitler got a plurality, not a majority, and was elected because the left split its vote. That the voters might have done something else, does nothing to change the fact that the Boosh administration is dismantling the social safety net, ramping up to a more advanced police state, and waging an illegal, unjustified war.

What in the world does "we're robbing the Iraqis mean?" Hitler was doing exactly what to the Sudentenland and Poland? You might want to check your history about when Hitler started invading other countries and when he instituted the final solution. Apparently, you will be surprised if you do that. Further, your statement that it's the Iraqis who resist who are getting killed (oh! and some innocent bystanders) is fatuous. The Lancet study indicates that huge numbers of innocent bystanders are being killed, but, hey, we don't really know, because the US isn't counting. That, my friend, is the very untermenschen mentality that characterized Nazism and eventually led to the death camps.

At another point in this thread, you maintain that we still have free speech. Been to a protest lately? Free speech in zones is not free speech. Sure, right at the moment we can carp and kvetch on message boards. But there's been a drumbeat ever since the trifecta moment of "don't criticize Dear Leader." And that's growing stronger.

The point of making the comparisons to Germany in the 1930s is that there's a model for a gradual degeneration of an otherwise civilized society under the rule of a nationalistic, bigoted leader.

Saying, "It can't happen here because it hasn't happened yet," is whistling past the graveyard. Read some of the material floating around quoting Germans who talk about the gradual slide into horror, the ones who describe a situation where they kept saying, "Well, that's bad, but surely they'll stop there." Except they didn't stop because nobody stood up and identified the evil until it was too late.

The very best thing for an aspiring despot is to have an anesthetized population ready to say, "He may be a little bad, but he's sure not like <fill in name of even worse despot>."

The Patriot Act is not just some little bother. The invasion of Iraq is not some harmless prank. Gutting social security is not an effort to help out the masses. If you'd like to suggest an better approach to confronting this evil, get right after it.

But there's little point, other than enabling, in wandering about saying, "He's not Hitler yet!"

What a remarkable and splendid coinkydink about your dad! You do remember, I trust, since I am sure you visited Moveon many times yourself, that the infamous Hitler ad was one of hundreds. How amazing that your dad was able to single it out, and be so outraged!

Really? A coinkydink? I'd say that if they put that on their site WITHOUT knowing what it was, as another poster suggested, then why should they be surprised when people trying to inform themselves on the vote visit their site and find ads such as these?

As for what women and the poor did or did not do, that's beside the point. The issue is what Boosh is doing. For all the "Hitler was elected" stuff, the fact is that Hitler got a plurality, not a majority, and was elected because the left split its vote. That the voters might have done something else, does nothing to change the fact that the Boosh administration is dismantling the social safety net, ramping up to a more advanced police state, and waging an illegal, unjustified war

It's not beside the point. They could have voted for Kerry and actually changed how this country is getting screwed, but 40% of Americans decided to watch CSI and Survivor with their pork rinds in hand.

And as for what Bush is doing now, I agree it's very bad. But I don't think we're headed towards a police state when 49% of the vote was AGAINST Bush.

Remember Saddam's last 'election' before we invaded? 100% of the vote went to him. THAT'S a police state. We're just in a republic filled with idiots.

What in the world does "we're robbing the Iraqis mean?" Hitler was doing exactly what to the Sudentenland and Poland? You might want to check your history about when Hitler started invading other countries and when he instituted the final solution. Apparently, you will be surprised if you do that. Further, your statement that it's the Iraqis who resist who are getting killed (oh! and some innocent bystanders) is fatuous. The Lancet study indicates that huge numbers of innocent bystanders are being killed, but, hey, we don't really know, because the US isn't counting. That, my friend, is the very untermenschen mentality that characterized Nazism and eventually led to the death camps.

It means we're in there so we can get THEIR oil to work for US. And what was Hitler doing in those countries like Poland? Gee, why don't we ask Dick Cheney? He was just in POLAND commemorating something? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4210841.stm Hitler invaded those countries to increase his strength and to remove the 'Jewish Problem'.

Why don't YOU go read history? And this time stay away from conspiracy theorist's blogs.

At another point in this thread, you maintain that we still have free speech. Been to a protest lately? Free speech in zones is not free speech. Sure, right at the moment we can carp and kvetch on message boards. But there's been a drumbeat ever since the trifecta moment of "don't criticize Dear Leader." And that's growing stronger.

We do have free speech. I don't agree with free speech zones, but why don't YOU do some research about these zones? Kerry had free speech zones too? It isn't just the Republicans doing this.

The point of making the comparisons to Germany in the 1930s is that there's a model for a gradual degeneration of an otherwise civilized society under the rule of a nationalistic, bigoted leader.

It wasn't gradual. Once Hitler had power, it wasn't a year before he was throwing people in jail for simply rumors of disagreeing wiht him. there are A LOT of differences between the Germany of 1930 and America of 2005.

Saying, "It can't happen here because it hasn't happened yet," is whistling past the graveyard. Read some of the material floating around quoting Germans who talk about the gradual slide into horror, the ones who describe a situation where they kept saying, "Well, that's bad, but surely they'll stop there." Except they didn't stop because nobody stood up and identified the evil until it was too late.

Well, I do kind of agree with you here. We do have to stop Bush from getting involved in ANOTHER war. But we aren't headed on a collision course with despotism.

The very best thing for an aspiring despot is to have an anesthetized population ready to say, "He may be a little bad, but he's sure not like <fill in name of even worse despot>."

And the best thing for a corrupt regime like Bush's is to have legitimate charges of corruption, such as Cheney's Energy Policy meetings, fettered to and weighed down with inane claims of Bush aspiring to surpass Hitler.

The Patriot Act is not just some little bother. The invasion of Iraq is not some harmless prank. Gutting social security is not an effort to help out the masses. If you'd like to suggest an better approach to confronting this evil, get right after it.

I agree with this. My suggestion is start fighting. Light a fire under the Dems' asses. Start protesting Bush wherever he goes. Make ourselves known. And stop making asinine comparisons between Bush and one of history's most brutal and abominable monsters.

election. The ad you are talking about was only viewed by a handful of people on the Move On site. However it was played on CNN and the other networks a lot. That is where you and your father most likely got your info on the ad in question.


But My ad was finalist in that contest check it out.
http://shadowgov.info/video_bushknew.html

And I do think Bush is as dangerous as Hitler.

liked, as I recall. It wasn't a quicksurf exercise to see those submissions--you had to have a vested enough interest to go through the USERID and password drill.

And before the contest closed, MOVEON had removed the commercial in question.

:yourock:

that voted for it. lol.

Excellent points.

about women and the poor. You're assuming that they didn't vote for Kerry, but as we now know, the elections weren't fair. A lot of those people's votes were not counted.

As Randi Rhodes so often states, "People don't stand in line for 8, 9, 10 hours to vote for the same old thing." Speaking as a woman, I believe the poor and women of Ohio, Florida, etc had their votes stolen.

So don't state they voted for this murderer squatting in OUR White House unless you have unequivocal proof that they did.


edit: forgot to check spelling.

That ad was a submission,NOT Move Ons position
Your dad is a dork if he missed this distinction.

that "Contest Submission" for a 30 second commercial of Bush that was submitted by a private citizen (with thousands of others) was only up on the MoveOn site for a few days and your Dad must have been going to that website and checking through every "contest submission" to have found that particular one submitted by a private citizen that compared Bush to Hitler. Funny, because I went to MoveOn's site almost daily and never got to see it and MoveOn had removed it once they had gotten through some of the reviews of submissions. This "clip" never made it to the qualifying rounds for the contest even, yet MoveOn gets credited for not only having "made it" (they didn't) but also for having promoted it (they didn't).

It's more likely that your Dad heard about it on Fox News or CNN and then went to their link and downloaded it....Or maybe he saw it on the official Bush/Cheney site where they did a morphing of it with Al Gore and Kerry on their site.

And by the way - most of the women and poor did vote for Kerry, not Bush...their votes didn't matter, despite what you think.

That is CORRECT, although that was a point drowned out by the Noise Machine. But the Rove-inspired smear artists had NO problem at all in using TV ads in 2002, to link Max Cleland with Bill Laden. (Cleland was a decoratd vet who left 3 out of his 4 limbs in Viet Nam. His "super-patriot" opponent was a Chicken-Hawk. But the NOISE had the last word ... SO FAR.)

pnorman

One of the big problems with Bush is the fact that he has created structures such as the Patriot Act which can be abused, if not by him then by someone later, for creation of an extremely repressive society.

The Patriot Act, if I remember correctly, was to be used ONLY to catch terrorists. Yesterday, they showed footage of Ashcroft stating that they used the Patriot Act to find the woman who cut the baby out of the pregnant woman in Missouri a little while back. While finding the baby was an extremely desirable activity, I have to notice that the killer was neither a terrorist nor foreigner engaged in terrorist activities. They've already jumped over that barrier. What other barriers will they choose or have they already chosen to leap over and for what reasons?

there are many similarities between Hitler and Bush.

And Bush isn't just robbing the US but also other parts of the world.
No imperialistic ambitions? Surely you jest.
No grandiose crusades for Christ? Tell that to the reli fundies.

any two bad leaders, and you'll find some similarities. That doesn't merit the 'Bush=Hitler' attitude we've been seeing around here.

And I don't think Bush has an interest in Imperialist ambitions, at least not American.

His ambitions lie entirely in the business world. America is nothing more than a tool to promote the welfare of his enterprises.

And I think an atheist has more faith in God that Bush. . . Rove just frames it as a crusade to get the fundie vote.

big business wants resources and (cheap) labor.

bush is creating cheap labor in the US as we speak, but there's also a lot of cheap labor elsewhere.

needless to say there's plenty of resources elsewhere.
to get access to those resources, big business needs to have control oevr the regions where the resources are.
that's where imperialism and business interests meet.

or do you believe Bush when he says the war in Iraq is not about oil?

Bush personally probably has no religious faith. But he (his strategists) do know they need all the support from the population they can get, hence the pandering to the reli-fundie base (ask any reli-funci if they think Bush is relgious). So he pretends to be religious; he's a dishonest man - what else is new? Btw this is one of the characteristics of despots in general, that Bush has in common with Hitler: they lie to the population.

Bush invaded to get his friends more money. The US, as far as he is concerned, is to be used until it has been sucked dry of all useful resources (military, money) and left to die. He doesn't want to build the US into an empire. He wants to use the US to increase profits.

All the behind the scenes stuff smacks of setting up shop to run the KKK from the White House. The way Ohio stopped all due process on the election fraud reads like a Dukes of Hazzard episode.

I pray that you are wrong, but I'm afraid Bush will have killed far more than 11 million before he's done, unless we get him and his cronies out of there.

The torture memo everyone was so upset about as it refers to Iraq and Guantanamo is even more chilling when you realize it can be applied to us.

AND remember .... Hitler didn't have nuclear capabilities.

The US already is an empire and the neocons are expanding it - they don't even make a secret of their desire for total US domination of the world. see www.newamericancentury.org
The point of domination is to have control over all sorts of resources, which they use to their own advantage.

Kick it people

I may not be reading it right, but it's loosey goosey enought that I'm reading "martial law" if deemed necessary and Gonzales said recently there could be times when the Pres makes laws that don't have to answer to the checks and balances.

If people know more about this... I don't know maybe it won't seem so bad to me in the morning.

is part of Homeland Security and FEMA already has these powers, so not sure why they are doing this.

(which aren't really subtle at all) of his antics. He sends advance teams wherever he travels to muffle dissent. His misadministration pays propogandists and issues it prolifically to cover up his crimes against humanity--both here in America and abroad. He withholds information from the public, revises historical documents to make himself appear to be something other than he is.

And you have the gall to compare Kerry's use of free speech pens to Bush's? How is it that you leave out the fact that as part of our current police state, the DNC and RNC "security" were orchestrated by one and the same group--straight out of Bushco and Kerry got the treatment just so people like you could use that lame comparison. This is not the memory hole that you think it is.

Furthermore, your statement that comparing any two bad leaders will lead to similarities is misleading. Ever heard of degrees of truth? While two leaders may be "bad" it can be for varying reasons that they are bad and the similarities often end there. On the other hand, Bush has done a myriad of things that are unmistakably comparable to Hitler. The more able we are to compare the two, the truer it becomes that they are alike. You want to stop the comparisons because the mass killings of Bush aren't on American soil. That is not relevant since Bush believes he is responsible for the world, he has no boundaries. Hitler wanted world dominance too. He never got it and neither will Bush.

And the chimp is not going after the Iraqis, he's going after US!!!

But of course he's not Hitler. He's an evil entity in his own right.

Let's just hope there's no Article 48 in our future. That'll be the time to sell off and run like hell.

He's not Hitler, he's not as evil as Hitler.

Power is not the same as money, but money is a large part of the pursuit of power.

If you've ever been around sickening wealth you will know that money is simply an addiction, just like torture is an addiction. The real disease in people like Bush is the need to inflict pain. It relates to their inability to fill a critical void in their soul. They have no empathy. They would use any and every symbol of grace and honor and defile it in service of their objectives.

No sir, you are mistaken. The only difference between Hitler and Bush is the context of their environment. Nazism is a long-running thread in the Bush family. Yeah, some peolpe bemoan the fact that I hold the sons accountable for the deeds of their fathers. Very legitimate concern. In fact, if George W. Bush had gone into the peace corps and devoted his life to helping the residents of a leper colony, then yes, I would be mistaken in holding him accountable. Compare that with Ron Reagan; oh how well he has distanced himself from the politics of his father. The reason? It wasn't genetic with the Reagans. He was a regular guy. That's the reason he was genuinely popular.

Now Mr. Bush, he has at his disposal the most advanced forms of destruction ever known to un-natural world. So you might ask, why wouldn't he just kill off everyone he wants, right? WRONG. He's a brilliant man and he knows very well that the world is like the milky skinned teenage girl at the bottom of the well. She is there to provide him with his depraved pleasures. Killing her would be no fun, until it was necessary.

Honey, you're just wrong.

George's only deviation would be that he's sure his bunch of fascists really will have a 1000 year empire.

Just because he substitutes Muslims for Jews doesn't make him different. (And any Jew who thinks we're safe because a different group is being scapegoated? Can we talk STUPID?) He wants what's theirs. He wants them compliant or dead.

A fascist is a fascist is a fascist. Hitler is one of the famous ones and he was in charge. Who DO you think George would emulate?

My grandmother's family would have preferred to pass on being murdered by Hitler's ambitions, but, oh well. IT DOES NOT DISHONOR THEM TO POINT OUT WHEN SOME POWER-HUNGRY SON OF A BITCH IS STARTING THE WHOLE DAMN THING UP AGAIN.

It DOES dishonor them to pretend their murders were some one-off special, never to be seen again.

It has been repeated so many times over the years that sometimes we forget its meaning: "We shall never forget them." The _reason_ we must not forget the Holocaust, is to recognize the next one and stop it. If we fail to do so, we dishonor the memory of the millions who died.

i don't think anything bothers me more than that comparison, and i'm as liberal as it gets

very well said

a pompous, petty tyrant that started wars and invaded defenseless 3rd world countries ethiopia, and still amost got his ass kicked by them.

but make no mistake, this country is on the march toward fascism, and like 1930's germany and italy, the populace is way too happy to swallow the propoganda shovled their way...

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Stalin was an incurious, cowardly, brutal thug. He hid out during the Russian revolution.

Hitler was, at least, an intellectual of sorts who had fought bravely in service to his country.

Neither individual, of course, adequately describes the problem we have in the White House, and I am in general agreement with the OP.

Last time I studied the III.Reich Hitler neither served his county, Austria, nor was he an intellectual! He was a PAINTER that was arrested and thrown in jail! If you read his book, which is sad enough that this piece of s...t is called literature, but it does not qualify for borderline acceptable writing, you will see how dumb Hitler was. And in that sense he is remarkably similar to Bush.

I don't feel well with the comparison either. I grew up in Germany and I sure don't want history to repeat itself. But do not forget: nobody took Hitler serious, nobody though he was actually capable of doing something so horrific. Hitler didn't start out gassing the Jews, his economic program (though stolen from his predecessor) did help Germany temporarily and the war (though inhumane and despicable) added to his economic success.
There was false justification on German side for him being the savior in the global disaster of wild recessions.

It is sad, that there are thoughts out there that the Iraqi war was good for the US economy and that it was what we needed to help out sluggish growth. But in any rumor there is grain of truth.

What strikes me as odd, is that in a country where free speech is still allowed, why is it look frowned upon to draw a comparison of this kind. Why do people that are worried for obvious reason, not made-up ones, seen as loonies. I imagine that's how people in Germany, who smelled wind of the direction Hitler was going, must have felt. But maybe this should be considered UNPATRIOTIC. :)

Whether the shoe fits for Bush or not, he is certainly not spreading the freedom here at home that he claims he wants to export to the rest of the world. And taking away some of the progress this country has made should worry people in any case.

Other than that I agree with you.

Much closer than to Hitler.

But Chimp has four more years to show his incompetence and disillusion the American people.

We'll be back in 2008...

You can draw some direct correlations between the words of Mussolini and the actions of Bush. Mussolini (paraphrased) defined the initial phases of fascism as 'corporatism', and if there's a better way to describe the first four years of Monkey Boy, I haven't heard it.

If Monkey Boy were to try anything resembling the Final Solution, I have to believe that the American people will wipe him and his people from power before you can say 'here comes the Gestapo', and the rest of the world will help.

No one is saying "Bush is worse than Hitler". At most what people are saying is "Same shit, different asshole"- pointing out that many of the things Bush has done and is doing are preliminary stages of fascism.

Bush _has_ rounded people up and put them into camps (or, less dramatically, prisons). Remember all the Muslims who just went away after 9/11. And the Patriot Act gives Bush the authority to hold them indefinitely without a trial. How many Afghani goat herders are still cooling their heels at Guantanemo? We'll never know. Bush wiped his ass with the Freedom of Information Act and the Presidential Records Act his first months in office. And the Patriot Act also suspended attorney client priviledge for suspected terrorists.

In Bush's America if you disagree you get a visit from the FBI, like the college student in Virginia who had an anti-Bush poster on her dorm room wall. Or you get put on a no-fly list like the Lutheran minister from Denver who protested the SOA. So it's not prison _yet_ but how far away do you think it is? And can you honestly say Bush wouldn't throw his enemies in jail if he thought he could get away with it?

Have you read much about the Welfare to Work program? The distinction between forcing poor mothers to work for minimum wage to pay back their "debt" to the government and forced labor is a pretty slim one. And last time I checked, quite a few minorities live in ghettos but the walls are economic and cultural not barbed wire.

Again, nobody is really saying Bush today is literally as bad as the actual Hitler. What people are saying is that Bush is a fascist and he would be as bad as Hitler if he could get away with it. And it's our job to make sure he can't. Ever. The comparison is a warning about where we're heading.

When Hitler did all those things, the camps, the anti-freedom info, the people had to swallow it. They didn't have a choice.

Those people in the 'ghettos' you speak of DO have a choice. They could have come out and voted. They could have voted absentee.

But 40% stayed home. Why? I don't know. But they condemned themselves to that lot in life by doing that.

Those people in the ghettos did come out to vote for Kerry. Did you miss the eight hour lines in Ohio and Florida?

At the risk of adding to what is probably going to be a lengthy, lengthy homework assignment by the end of this thread, educate yourself about vote fraud, Diebold, voter suppression tactics and Florida 2000 and then try blaming minorities for Bush with a straight face.

But there is still 40% who didn't vote. I don't know who they are, but I could take a good guess.

As for the voter fraud, listen. I know it's hard to believe. But WE LOST. It sucks, oh, it sucks. I was bawling during the inaguration. I wanted to through out the TV.

But, guess what? WE LOST. Your obsession with voter fraud will not lead us anywhere. I know it's hard to admit that we failed, but we did.

So now, we pick up the pieces and keep moving and try to improve.

i saw 9 hour lines. hell, i waited 3. i saw people leave, because they had class, or work.

MOVING ON WILL DO NOTHING IF THE VOTING IS NOT CLEAN
What the hell is with this resistance to at least looking into voter fraud? if there IS a problem, than it will never correct itself. we have to do it.

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

Next up: Logical Fallacies 101

"False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three options"

Bush either is Hitler or he isn't.

"From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false"

We don't know the election was stolen, therefore it wasn't. Get over it. We don't know that people have been put in camps. After all, it wasn't announced on CNN. Therefore noone has been persecuted under Bush.

"Attacking the Person: the person's character is attacked"

You disagree with me, therefore you're obsessed with voter fraud. You're obviously a nut, so I don't have to listen. Nananananana.....

"Slothful Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary"

I'm too damn lazy to read anything about voter fraud in Ohio and Florida. Therefore it doesn't exist.

"Straw Man: the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument"

Democrats routinely argue that Bush today is worse than Hitler in the literal sense.

"Inconsistency: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true"

We can't say that Bush is Hitler it will scare off the moderates. After all Moveon.org said that Bush is Hitler and then all those moderates voted for us in 2004...

That's about half the list, but I think you get the point. If you don't, we can do the rest.

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that you either have not studied what happened in your state, or you do not care. It was an election fraud, committed not _by_ voters, but against them. It wasn't about people voting twice. It was about ballot boxes being stuffed, both physically and electronically. It was about access to the polls being blocked, either by thugs, the holding back of machines, or by a surprise last minute purge of the voting rolls. It was about delaying every legal challenge to the fraud, until it was de facto too late to repair the damage. The election was stolen with the assistance of Ken Blackwell, Jeb Bush, Wally O'Dell, and many others. Do you remember when O'Dell (voting machine mogul) promised to "deliver Ohio" to Bush? He fulfilled his pledge.

That doesn't mean much to me. I go on evidence, that's why I am a liberal. I see that liberal policies work. Conservative policies don't.

You are going on assumptions and 'what if' scenarios.

Plz take a guess. I really want to hear your opinion. Don't be shy. Tell us what you think.

We DID vote for Kerry. Kerry won the vote, both the popular vote and the electoral vote. Bush stole it massively. Read the facts, Dark.

Bush's corporate crony allies manufacture the voting machines.
Bush's cronies run the election machines in the swing states, and commit one egregious felony after another with no consequences at all. Insufficient machines in black neighborhoods, post-election manipulation of machines, hiding the poll records (itself a felony under Ohio law), purging thousands from the rolls at the last minute, sending in thousands of thugs to intimidate voters, and on and on and on.

I'll tell you why, because they don't trust the system and think it's a sham (and they are probably closer to the truth than fools such as myself)

Bush was not elected in 2000 and I am highly dubious about 2004.

Maybe bushit isn't a "Hitler" with death camps, but if you read up on the climate in Germany you'll see that the propaganda movement that was afloat was very similar to our Limbaughs and Faux news stations of today (look up Father Coughlin on google and meet Rush's apparent inspiration)

Replace the word "Jews" with "liberals" (which would really translate into the poor, the moderates, the middle class and anyone else that the bushbots object to and have no use for)

What the hell is the difference between death camps and denying people health care (so they die)

If bush has his way you watch how many people he's capable of killing over the long term.

JMO but in the the end it's hard to say just what bush is capable of.

I hope that I am wrong.

:thumbsup:


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

If we don't defeat it while we can, when there's still enough wiggle room to get around the architecture that he's building, we won't be able to. He has the scaffolding already erected.

<<Bush has NOT rounded up people into camps. He has NOT turned America into a police state.>>

Thousands have been rounded up and detained in America and elsewhere. Many without formal charges or with the benefit of a lawyer.

As far as the police state goes, we will have to take a better look at the Department of Homeland Security in a few years.

<<In Hitler's Germany, if you weren't Anglo-Saxon, you, at best, were discriminated against in every way.>>

Discrimination is on the rise in America. Right Wing extremism has become more popular. Their beliefs in "States Rights", Creationism, Anti-Abortion-ism, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Feminism, "Family Values", hatred of non-whites and homosexuals is the foundation of these groups. They just take it a wee bit further.

<<Jews had to wear yellow stars to identify themselves. At worst, you were sent to death camps.>>

And, if someone does not have at least one American Flag, one bush bumper sticker, one yellow ribbon, and one little fish on their vehicle, then they are marked. It is like the Yellow star in reverse. If you don't wear a cross, then you are suspect.

Granted, Bush is no Hitler, and Hitlers crimes are far more barbaric. Somehow though, the dialog must be left open to be able to draw parallels between the two when the genuinely exist.

Are we living in the Nazi Germany of 1944? NO. Are we living in the Germany of the late '30s? Maybe. Will it go to the same extreme? NO. Will it get worse? Yes. Do I say that bush is the same as Hitler? No.

To me, it is about the trend line. NAZI Germany just happens to be the one the chart fits the best.

fuck it, bush is just fucking like hitler.

For all we know history books of the future may say something like, "Hitler was bad, but he was no Bush."

He's still developing.

--IMM

It starts out with the division of the "holy us" and the "demonic them".

It starts out when the government becomes the state, and begins to create it's own reality.

It starts out with economic "comparisons" - between spending money on "people that are worth investing in" and discarding "people who have no social worth". It starts when there becomes a permanent underclass that is identified by specific markers; religion, political ideology, culture, race, medical condition, gender/gender preference ... practices and belief systems that cause one to become stripped of legal protection despite the fact that these practices do not actually harm persons or property.

It starts out when individuals no longer have innate rights; where the state grants rights at it's convenience. When "ask not what your can do for your country, ask what your country wants you to do..."
It starts when the state determines that there is a struggle for resources and citizens to have to decide what to do to pay the high price be "comfortable"; either they have the fortune to be able to purchase their comfort by personal networks or funding, or they sacrifice personal time, health, and their families to make enough money to purchase what they can at the state's convenience.

The camps and disappearing citizens are the final symptom of a dictator. Not the initial symptom.

This one thing has been proven over and over - "Those who don't understand the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them".

When one compares Germany of the 1930's - the beginning of the Nazi empire - or heck, Italy of the 1930's if you don't want to admit all the possibilities of a historical repeat - to what's happening on the political and social level of this country...well, there are valid dictatorial comparisons.

What will happen to us as a country if those in power decide that due to circumstances, the Constitution is no more important than any other "quaint" treaty or literary document?

Is this not a valid concern?

Haele

True. Bush uses this tactic often, both foregin and domestically.

power

You just summed up perfectly what I have been thinking for the last few months.

And I'd add that right now we're like the frog in the kettle of water. The frog keeps adjusting to incremental increases in temperature until...you know the rest (literally and figuratively). Since the Reagan adminstration we've seen the end of the fairness doctrine and the beginning of hate radio and cable newspaper propaganda, we've had fraudulent elections, vilification of gays, erosion of our civil liberties, books that call liberals evil and treasonous, and even a book that defends internment. The people of this country are gradually, gradually accepting what a few years ago would be wholly unacceptible. The temperature keeps going up and we'd better throw some water on the fire NOW while we still can.

"advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool"

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
p.60.
:cry:

Please tell me how these people are less evil than the Nazis.

They are talking about what types of weapons may be developed in the future. They aren't advocating the US build any biological weapons, simply stating that they will exist and may have even more diabolical purposes.

Anyone who considers genocide bioweapons to be "politically-useful"
tool(s)"
almost certainly has a set of jackboots in the closet.

They are advocating genocide. I don't see how it could be read any
other way.
This was not part of a discussion of new threats we need to defend
ourselves against, this was clearly something they regard as an
opportunity.

They are practically salivating at the prospect of using such weapons.
They are have almost certainly been developing them over the past 4 years.

1. Bush used a terrorist episode to convince us to give up civil rights.

2. Bush uses a phony "moral values" platform, just like Hitler.

3. Bush used the line of "freeing the world from terrorists". Substitute in "monarchies", and you have Hitler's line.

4. There are family ties. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3055113

5. Bush is trying to rewrite history. http://www.kanzeon.nl/doubt.html

6. The GOP leadership is trying the "nuclear option" in the Senate to change Filibuster rules. A much more subtle effect than disbanding the Congress.

Have I forgotten anything?

Queen Wilhelmina of Holland?

And there are No moderates! Didn't you see the so called repug moderates sit on their hands and vote for torture boy?

I don't necessarily relish comparisons of Bush with Hitler but some of the above statements are so wrong I have to respond.

"But he is not ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL THE IRAQIS. He is not so monstrous that he kills people simply because he can. "
You are kidding , right? Was he trying to miss them? What reason does he have for killing people who didn't attack us? Oil? Fake WMD? Give me a break. Hitler could have given reasons about Germany's economy too. What is the difference? It still is because he can.

"Bush has NOT rounded up people into camps. He has NOT turned America into a police state"

Really? Guantanamo Bay isn't a camp? And what about those thousands of people who were rounded up after 9-11 that they never pressed charges against , held them against their will and didn't allow them lawyers? Have all of those people been released? Where were they kept?

Bush just wants to rob this country blind. Period. No imperialistic ambitions, no grandiose crusades for Christ. He just wants to help his cronies get as much money as they can, regardless of the legality or morality of its obtainment.

The Evangelical Bush who referred to the war in Afghanistan originally as a "crusade", and whose General Boykin, says God is on the side of the Christians ,and the same President, who says no one who believes differently then himself is saved, has no"crusade for Christ" ? The Bush whom Sen. Byrd referred to as having anointed himself king by way of the Gonzales memo overriding Congress and who threatens to expand his war throughout the Middle East isn't "imperialistic"?

Surely this post is either naive, or someone is joking.

The quality of the dialogue is deteriorating lately.

Anyone who can't see the comparisons is in denial. Ever visited a courtroom run by a republican judge? Everyone pleads, NO ONE GETS A TRIAL.

Just tried a case in front of a harsh, right wing republican judge. My client was convicted and got the max the judge could give him, but he got as fair a trial as one can get as a Mexican National in West Texas.

Oh the virtues of the penitent who confesses his crime and saves the judge his tee time. He should have pled. Isn't that the moral of the story?

I believe that President Roosevelt sent more people (ie Japanese Americans) to camps than the current administration has.

just turn on the fuckin light

That fear of alienating the moderates has gotten us exactly where? We did basically nothing when the "Right" branded Clinton as Satan. bu$h = Hitler seems a fair dividend.

:evilgrin:
dbt

crossed over and joined us for the election.

Remember.
Thirty percent of regularly voting Americans are conservative. That means that only 5-20% of the people who voted for Bush are moderates. And it's probably not that high, when one considers all the first time voting evangelicals. About 19% are liberals. That means THIRTY percent of Americans who voted for Kerry were moderates. THIRTY. That's what pandering to the moderates got us.

compared Bush to Hitler, the moderates voted with us anyway.

Hmmmm....

Many vote with how they feel. These people, rightly, feel disgusted by these analogies. And that completely turns them off of our message. Others are simply disturbed. They'll listen to our message, but won't be as open minded.

book. Sorry you don't get it. I think over time it will only be the total imbeciles who will not recognize the trouble we are in. The trend is not with the dumb asses.

30% of DEMOCRATS are NOT moderates. We don't need REPUKES to win. We need to mobilize DEMOCRATS. There are more registered Democrats than there are Repukes. The Repuke higher income voters had a better turn out than did our lower income voters and our college students.

I say focus on getting people registered and to the polls, rather than turning right and pandering to the Repukes.

END REPUKE eLITeISM

Bush is not as bad as Hitler, nor does he share Hitler's ambitions.

Of course, you don't have to be as bad as Hitler to be an asshole. As you correctly point out, Bush just wants to rob his country blind and stuff the money in his own pockets and those of his base. He's not a total dictator bent on world domination, he's just a short-sighted, greedy, and foolish politician who is not going to let human lives stand in the way of profits.

Bush truly believes that American corporate/consumerist capitalism is the finest thing since sliced bread and it needs to be exported to the rest of the world. Because this is clearly best for his base, he manufactures reasons why it is best for everyone, as has always been the tradition in voodoo (trickle-down) economics. As mistaken as they are, these people believe that they are doing everyone a favor. By promoting these views, they aren't sending anyone to camps, they are just sending them to food stamp offices (and then blaming the victims).

They are not Hitler, they are just wrong. Calling them Nazis does nothing but damage our credibility, and it actually hurts our chances of getting rid of them.

:toast:

calls feminists "femi-nazis"; Neither do I hear the so called moderates disparage reThugs when the She-Man "Coulter" calls "libruls" and progressives all sorts of nasty names and threatens all kinds of deaths on us. This self flagellation that we indulge in all the time is one of our shortcomings in the sense that we cannot set out on a path of toughening up our actions and rhetorics and even before we go any distance we are start doubting ourselves and debating whether or not we should be tough about anything in the first place - because the moderates and independents will hates us and run away from us. These same moderates and independents are the ones putting aside all that are bad in the reThuglican platform and actions and still voting for them. Please - give it a rest. They called and are still calling Bill Clinton all sorts of names and accused him of all sorts of crimes. But did that stop the moderates and independents from voting reThuglican? - NO!

its a dangerous way to work, yes. but holding ourselves quietly disapproving (like kerry did w/ ohio) does nothing but give the conservatives who are willing to go to any lengths lots of space to move into. america eats up shock, controversy. just look at the swiftboat shit. good long term strategy? of course not. but there comes a time when one must fight fire with fire


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

You don't take a knife to a gun fight?

He has the Goebbels-like Fox News Network, the Arabs (yes, this includes even Saddam Hussein himself, like it or not) are the new Jews, free speech is almost dead and nationalism is just as high as it was in Germany in the 30's.

GET REAL! If we do not impeach this SOB next year, he WILL become Hitler!

Then what the hell are you doing right now? You're expressing your views.

Is the SS, Secret Service of course, going to barge into your room? NO! Free speech is not dead.

Nationalism is higher, but it isn't the same as in Germany. Most Germans were united under Hitler during most of his rise to power. Our country is EVENLY DIVIDED. That is a major difference.

Comparisons between Hitler and Bush are justified,
but there is no comparision between the the US government and it's citizens to the Third Reich and Germans during Hitler's reign.

before you leap to that assumption. The Germans in pre-Hitler were folks just like us.

Don't decieve yourself thinking they weren't. Even the GIs marching into Germany thought Germany was a lot more like the US than 'filthy France'.

"It can't happen here" is what they say just before it does.

I would submit that nationalism is no wheres near as high in the US today as it was during the FDR era.

of the third Reich.

Your denial of the obvious parallels doesn't hep our cause.

Bush IS a fascist.

I really like your quote from about Christ and Christians....thanks.. I will be using it on my personal Underground site. :-)

nt

n/t

but I do agree he and his cohorts are fascist thugs

of those who now rule America.

Read about the American Eugenics movement, and how it inspired Nazi Germany's race laws, and the Holocaust:

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/01/repealing-godwins-law.html

if people get offended that easily, its their problem.
The motive behind this thread interests me.
Why would you want to control what other people say?

:D

... of the situation shape up against the facts:

"Bush has NOT rounded up people into camps. He has NOT turned America into a police state."

Au contraire. He has rounded up thousands of Muslims around the world and placed them in camps, often arbitrarily. The camps are in Cuba and elsewhere around the world, not the US, but he's done it, nevertheless.

He has turned the country into a police state--there aren't jackbooted brownshirts patrolling the streets and there's no dusk-to-dawn curfew, but the central government is controlling the populace, nevertheless, via computer databases and a supportive media which spews out the government line daily. Plans are afoot in major cities to install cameras in urban areas which will provide 24-hour surveillance. The government inculcates fear in the populace through unsubstantiated terror alerts.

"In Hitler's Germany, if you disagreed with him, you were sent to a camp. You didn't come back."

True, already, for some. Not many, but enough to describe the future. And, the transport to camps in Germany did not begin the moment Hitler seized power in 1933. It built gradually over a period of years, culminating with a peak around Kristalnacht in 1938. Time was required first to get the general public behind Hitler's program of purges. In fact, the "ultimate solution" to the "Jewish question" evolved over time.

Today, intimidation through technology has supplanted intimidation by threat of force. People are just as scared, however, and that is the ultimate intent of fascist governments--intimidation and suppression of dissent.

"In Bush's America, if you disagree, you have a very heated argument before you are told your sources have no credibility because they aren't Fox News."

Not exactly true. Your neighbors today might argue with you, but they have also called the Secret Service or the FBI to inform those agencies of your disloyalty, and, perhaps, to request that your dissent about Bush's policies be investigated as a potential threat against Bush (which both agencies say must be investigated in all instances). Instances of this can be found here:

http://www.progressive.org/mcwatch03/mcwatch03.html

"In Hitler's Germany, if you weren't Anglo-Saxon, you, at best, were discriminated against in every way. Jews had to wear yellow stars to identify themselves. At worst, you were sent to death camps."

Well, not exactly. Jews were not the only ones discriminated against, or sent to camps. Others singled out for both discrimination and extermination included Catholics, unionists, communists, independently minded academics, homosexuals and common criminals. No camps? America has more people in its prisons than any other country in the world, including China, the population of which is five times that of the US.

Ask yourself if the current fundamentalist attacks on gays could accelerate in kind and degree in the near future, and also ask yourself if the administration has done anything of substance to deter those attacks.

"In Bush's America, if you aren't a white male, you are probably discriminated against, but not on the level of Hitler's Germany. Don't believe me?

"When was the last time you ever heard of an American Krystalnaucht? Or perhaps you've heard of gays' and blacks' businesses being nationalized and them being forced into ghettos? Or maybe there are people who have been funneled into forced labor camps who you know?"

Well, not yet gays. But, it's happening, of sorts, with this generation's "other," all Arab-appearing individuals. The central government is detaining such people at will, and without the sort of due process afforded such people prior to the Bush administration. The attacks on gays have been media-driven to date, but that's building, slowly, to include legislative action. The issue here is not that gays have been exempt, but, rather, that the central government has done little to deter attacks, and has aligned itself ideologically with groups making the attacks on gays and gay rights.

"There are similarities of course. Both use demagoguery to gain support, but Bush simply uses it to pass laws. Hitler actively KILLED SIX MILLION people based on his bigoted delusions."

Bush has bypassed the Constitution, with the absolution of Congress, to kill, in about three years, perhaps 130,000 people in Afghanistan and Iraq. I see no distinction between killing people in ovens and killing them with bombs from 40,000 feet overhead. The Bush administration intends further, larger attacks on other countries, and the death toll will mount. Let me note here that Hitler did not invade Czechoslovakia until 1935, over two years from his ascent to power, and did not take Austria until 1938, five years after taking power. Bush invaded and occupied Afghanistan after only a little more than nine months after taking office, and Iraq after twenty-six months.

"But he is not ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL THE IRAQIS. He is not so monstrous that he kills people simply because he can."

Perhaps you have not been paying attention to the independent news reports from Afghanistan and Iraq. He has given orders that are indifferent to the health and safety of Afghani and Iraqi civilians in pursuit of a goal just as insane as Hitler's. Look, too, at Bush's personality in isolation from the issue of war.

He, as governor of Texas, indiscriminately signed execution orders for more than 140 people without concern for due process or their possible innocence. He signed orders which ultimately negatively affected the health of hundreds of thousands of children in Texas.

Those are decisions that are different from Hitler's only in degree, not kind. Hitler controlled Germany for twelve years (1933-1945). Bush has been in power only four years, and in a country which still pretends to presume that it is a tri-partite democracy--as that democracy is undermined, the excesses will become larger and more regular in occurrence.

"Let me repeat this: BUSH IS NOT HITLER. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE HITLER. HE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HITLER OR HIS STYLES."

Bush is the same kind of character, however, expressing similar desires for absolute control, for similar reasons. Dr. Justin Franks and other psychiatrists have described Bush as sociopathic, at the least, and megalomaniacal at worst.

"Bush just wants to rob this country blind. Period. No imperialistic ambitions, no grandiose crusades for Christ. He just wants to help his cronies get as much money as they can, regardless of the legality or morality of its obtainment."

Hitler, too, was a fascist. He curried the favor of industry, tried to include the captains of German industry in his intrigues, and promised them riches if they cooperated. No different than Bush. Bush may not be as ideological as his subordinates, but he has surrounded himself with them, and with sycophants (as did Hitler). And, make no mistake, if they influence him successfully, their ambitions become his--and their ambitions are imperial and Christian in tone. No previous president has ever said "God speaks through me" or "God told me to strike..." a perceived enemy, at least not publicly and in such literal and literally-minded terms. That's not just about money.

"He just wants to take this country's money for the rich. Period."

Yes, he wants to enrich the elite. So did Mussolini, and so did Hitler. Both were fascists. Both were crazy as bedbugs. But, that's not all that they did, and that's not all that Bush intends.

"Every time a DU'er say's 'Bush is Hitler' or compares the two, it makes me, and A LOT of other voters, sick.

"You dishonor the many millions of people killed by Hitler. You dishonor these victims as much as Bush does the 9-11 victims every time he invokes 9/11 to pass a law or gain 'political capital'. It is wrong. Bush is not the monster Hitler was."

That's a false tautology. It mistakes quantity for quality. It seeks to imply dishonor, a subjective term, because of a quantitative number of deaths, rather than the character of those deaths. The nature of both kinds of deaths are equally in violation of human rights, both are capital crimes, and both were accomplished by terrorizing the public and instilling fear and xenophobia in the public. The character of both are similar.

Additionally, you mistake what Bush has done to date for what Hitler took twelve years to do. Bush has, in actuality, caused more grief worldwide in his first four years than did Hitler in his.

"Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to put on a flame proof suit."

No need for that. But, you make equations which are imaginary. When people liken Bush to Hitler, they are seeing parallels, similar characteristics of disregard for human rights and of personality, and the potential of Bush (and of his minions, with his acquiescence) to do great harm, and greater harm as time goes by and as he consolidates power, as did Hitler.

Cheers.

And just like my sig says...

In the most public appearance a president makes, (State of the Union), he pledged to amend the constitution to discriminate against them.

Couldn't agree more with your summary PunPirate....

I was just saying to my husband this evening that I suspect that conversations at the dinner table in Germany 1937-38 were probably not much different than they are at ours these days....

My family knows all too well what Hitler and the Nazis managed to do...I am half German, half Danish....

My Father's family in Germany actually escaped Nazi Germany when things got really bad...I had long conversations with my Grandparents about it and how it came about. While we aren't Jewish, my Grandparents and their families were well educated Doctors, lawyers and teachers who had Jewish friends and colleagues and when the Nazis were starting to target Jews and other policies and rhetoric that my family considered dangerous, they started speaking out against them and it even cost the life of a Great Uncle of mine eventually. After KristallNacht, they saw the writing on the wall and escaped to come to the US. My Mother's family is Danish. They were (and still are) in Denmark. They and other family members and neighbors helped the resistance and helped smuggle out Danish Jews to Sweden on the family Knarr and other boats to prevent them from being rounded up by Nazis.

My family's warned and taught us a long time ago about the history and how it came about. These things are happening now, here in America and I believe potentially in a much more dangerous way....but Americans in general don't pay attention to history, especially other country's history and anyone who isn't knowledgable or paying attention to history's lessons is oblivious to what is going on. Some Americans who are aware are in a state of denial because its too painful to deal with the reality. And meanwhile, those of us who do have a clue and see it quite clearly, are called Alarmists and attacked for our pointing out of the similarities. This in itself is a large indicator to the fact that it hits a hot button for them. I still remember how the far right and White House made a far greater deal about the MoveOn.org contest entrant for the Bush in 30 seconds commercials that was never even a finalist and the righties kept showing it over and over again. MoveOn never even had it as a finalist and they didn't make it, yet the right made a big stink about it.

The old saying "thou protesteth too much" comes to mind....

Don't be fooled everybody...the situation in this country and the dangers of this administration are far, far more dangerous than we realize...like I said earlier, think of Nazi Germany in 1937-38....Most Germans had no idea how bad things were going to get....In fact, my Great Uncle who died at the hands of the Nazis, was said to have originally just thought Hitler was a short loser with a napoleonic complex....even he didn't realize till later that it was much worse than he or anyone could imagine....

:hi:

America IS an empire, with military bases all over the world. Germnay had a chickenshit empire stripped away after WW I. They were humiliated by this and aspired to be an empire.

Hitler was a Keynsian who made really huge investments in infrastructure. Bush and cronies are much more concerned with asset stripping here and abroad to invest in anything.

American culture and legal system--still much more resilient and resistant against capitalism compared to the German system.

The one thing that is eerily similar is the total isolation of much of the population (in both cases) from knowledge readily available to the rest of the world, owing to corporate/government domination of mass media.

the primary purpose of the bush=hitler argument is to advance the goal that another hitler should never happen again.

jews and other have been saying, ever since the end of wwii, that another hitler cannot be permitted, and we should all be determined to prevent any repeat of the utter disaster that hitler represents.

so the idea is to identify potential hitlers EARLY, while people still have an ability to do something about it.

is bush a carbon copy of hitler? or course not.
did bush do, in 4 years, what hitler did in 12? of course not.
will he, if permitted? like you, i highly doubt it.

but we don't know the future, and maybe, just maybe, he were indeed a similar monster, and had designs to conquer the major oil-producing countries; and wanted perpetual war; and wanted domestic hatred against gays, which might, say, lead to sending them off to re-education centers.

if he were such a monster, when would we realize it? what would the tell-all hint be?

and would we be in a position to stop it?



my own, personal perspective, is that the sort of nazi horrors that we attribute to hitler personally are actually inevitable consequences of that form of government. hitler had an agenda, and germany was ripe to receive it. i don't think bush has the same agenda, nor do i think america is as ripe to receive that sort of thing.

but i remain of the belief that it is an inevitable consequence.

the banana republicans will do what they can to ensure that another banana republican gets the white house for another 8 years. the next banana republican president will very likely continue and extend much of bush's apparatus. after 16 years of this, i can't see us avoiding some of the ugliness.

put another way, bush may not want a holocaust.
but he is, perhaps unwittingly, starting something that he is powerless to prevent.

I don't quite understand how anyone who has been following the developments for the last thirty years and especially the last ten could still express such naivete.
Of course BFEE isn't going to duplicate Hitler precisely, but look:

Hitler started with no military of any consequence, as that was forbidden by the treaty consummating the end of WW1.

Bush DID round up a huge bunch of innocents and put them in concentration camps- the merest iceberg-like tip shows up in GITMO, Abu Ghraib, And Afghanistan. That's just the part that's very visible. The facts of torture, rape, murder, absolute horrors all are far too well documented to pass off so readily.

The murder of one hundred thousand plus in Iraq in the guise of pursuing some invisible terrorists is nothing but terrorism, itself, and this bunch of nut bags are the chief terrorists. They, themselves, all of them, have such close parallels in Hitler's empire that the similarities are obvious.

Bush is NOT just after personal riches; he wants to rule the world (fifth Reich, anyone?) and he and his minions are well on the road to doing just that. With the mistakes of Hitler serving to guide them, one must not expect an exact one-for-one correspondence-the circumstances are a bit different, that's all..

Oh, how I wish (sometimes) that there really were a hell. Bush would certainly be in it. But in my reality, there is no heaven, no hell, and certainly no god to prevent such horrors as Bush or Hitler.
If they are not punished and destroyed in this life, it just ain't gonna happen. (wistfully)
Move-on did not do any bush/hitler similarity ads, although the right wing bastards used such comparisons up and down the line.

Most of the people I talk to have grown so sick and tired of such Polyannaish ramblings as this post and the mealy-mouth supposedly progressive/liberal enablers in government who have refused to stand up and tell the truth and call a liar a liar and a crook a crook.

We will get nowhere but more of the same until folks are willing to finally stop making sand bag excuses for these destroyers and quit looking for the good in them 'cause there ain't any!

The only dishonor shows up when people avert their gaze and hope it isn't as bad as the clear visioned already know it is!

There will never be another hitler. What he did will never be copied
in the form that it was done. American culture is not germany, nor is
it facing the same external forces and historic forces that germany
faced at that time.

However, there are some similarities, deeply disconcerting ones, that
are beyond bush, and i prefer the term "nazi-GOP" to bush, as he is
just an irrelevant figurehead to a deeper brown shirt movement that he
does not really lead; one with many heads like a hydra.

That america has millions in prison is no comfort, and you omit the
torture of rape that is deliberate and systematic in american prisons,
that dark skinned people are overtly more imprisoned as well, as much
as you can call it not targeting specific groups, then what is that?

The patterns of modern media are far more plural than during the nazi
era, making it more difficult to pull off such overt crimes, and this
has the criminals soft-selling their crimes, rather than the old hitler
hard sell.

Your question seems to be rather that, given the corporate media
dishing out sainthood to the scumbag, as was the case inside germany
before the fall, that dissenting with this view does not buy
DU credibility with moderates.

Moderates are as free to speak as the rest of us. Let them come
forward and make a case. It seems to me, that there are only
individuals here, and if one set is too weak minded to defend their
views, they are not moderates, but cowards who defend nothing but
the erosion of the constitution.

Which country is that? Also, Afghanistan is not conquered.

Who are you quoting? I guess the country he's conquored, if we must
use that term, would be the USA... coup d'etat and all...

HOLOCAUST, TRADING AND PROFITING WITH THE THIRD REICH-BUT , NO , HE'S NOT HITLER. YET.

However, I do believe that Bush would wipe out the Iraqis (or anyone else in his way) if he could get away with it.

Hitleresque.

a highly toxic waste dump that is poisoning EVERYONE in it, courtesy of the U.S. MIC... The bodies haven't fallen to the ground yet. Give it time.

Never mind the laws and separation of powers no longer in force, the invasion of Iraq and forged documents that aided that misrepresentation of purpose, secret prison camps around the world, suspension of the Geneva convention as something we follow, etc. Your're right he's not Hitler. The prisoners are Muslim. But the good 'ol USA isn't the same 'ol USA either. I haven't posted in quite awhile but I feel myself giving up. America is divided between those that refuse to recognize what's going on (evidently the majority) and those that have zero power in this country that do.

Yet...Yet...Yet...Yet...

"You dishonor the many millions of people killed by Hitler. You dishonor these victims as much as Bush does the 9-11 victims every time he invokes 9/11 to pass a law or gain 'political capital'. It is wrong. Bush is not the monster Hitler was."

Hey, take your "Bush is not Hitler because he didn't kill 6,000,000 and you dishonour the Dead by saying so" meme and blow it out your used oatmeal hole, please.

You can't silence me with that talking point.

"Bush is not Hitler"

YET!

Other than that?

RL

only you, Hitler and his extant progeny know.

no matter how hard he tries.

Tell that to Karla Tucker. You ever notice how Bush only seems coherent when he's talking about killing?

That aside, I don't see *that* many people calling Bush Hitler -- and I don't see any of your outrage directed toward those good godly folks who have been calling a certain first lady "Hitlery" for at least the last 8 years or so.

You say: Bush is not Hitler. I'd probably agree, but that doesn't mean Bush is not an evil sick fuck with no sense of human compassion. I'd also agree because for all of his sick evil fuckery, Hitler seemed somewhat curious about the world and some things, such as architecture, music, history etc., and George just seems like an incurious vacuum.

She is the one that said that each stroke of the axe gave her an orgasm.

taken seriously -- not mockingly. I'm tempted to ask how you know G.W. didn't orgasm every time someone was executed on his watch, but that would be tacky. Not as tacky as mocking someone condemned to death, but tacky all the same.

I am entitled to take her at her word. I am not going to defend Bush, and there are serious problems with the death penalty. But chosing an axe murderer to be your poster child is not going to get a lot of sympathy from me.

Yes, I am aware that she supposedly converted to Christianity in prison. So???? Seperation of Church & State. Suppose someone converts to Satanism while in prison.

condemned prisoner. His behaviour. That was the point I was getting at.

Not the best choice of persons to win sympathy. I would have mocked her too. How much do you care about the victims of her murderous rampage????? She got what she deserved. Why is there always this great outpouring of sympathy for those who commit some of the most horrible crimes, and so little concern for the victims? You would make it sound as if Karla Tucker were a victim.

but I would have been more disturbed if Bush let her off just because she supposedly became Christian. If anything there was a bizarre consistancy in his execution methods - Christian or not, he was ready to put them to death.

I never understood the few cases regarding the DP that became so important for those on the left. This and the Mumia. I personally am against the DP, but the cases some on the left are making a big deal of are not effective.

For example, I think there was one execution in TX where the man was convicted because of ONE eyewitness. I think this would make more sense to talk about rather than some psycho woman that claimed she was saved.

Yet. However, he's way ahead of schedule by Hitler's timeline.

And to give Little Boots some credit, they are not talking about a Thousand Year Reich, but only a New American Century.

Or the millions of brown-skinned people rotting in American jails?

Actually, we have turned Fallujah into an internment camp, from what I've read.

I interpreted your words to mean "no camps yet, but plenty of other offenses." There are camps, and you have pointed out a new one to me now. To the Arab world, these names will forever ring out like "Auschwitz" and "Buchenwald".

And history will blame us, despite our efforts.

Just because he, personally, is not rounding up innocent Muslims and putting them in Guantanamo,Abu Ghraeb and elsewhere they can perform torture, does not mean he isn't responsible for it. Hitler didn't personally kill the Jewish people either. He had his henchmen do it for him.

History will tell us how many people he will kill when its all over.

Toll=mounting continually

We'll dishonor the Bush's victims by not reserving for him a special place in hell next to Hitler. Two seperate men. Two faces of evil.

that the President does not have to follow laws he finds unconstitutional. They just appealed the ruling that said they could not allow prisoners to be held indefinitely without any hearings. Orrin Hatch agrees, as seen in the Senate hearings yesterday.

What does that mean for our nation?

hear is the last nail being driven into Checks n Balances' coffin.

Look him up.

quote, too.