If the US closes its borders, stops illegal entirely. Who will do the jobs

many illegals do? Jobs in agriculture(field work),hotel/restaurant, construction day labor.

I've heard many RW blowhards spout out about how these illegals are "taking jobs away from americans".

What americans, white or black, would work under those conditions for the same pay? I dont know many, if any at all.

And if all illegals are stopped at the border and americans are hired for those jobs at a regular rate of pay(which they would demand) with benefits how would that affect the prices of produce, hotel accomodations, meals in restaurants, etc...?

I'm in SoCal and see a need for that type of laborer by local businesses.

Would a head of lettuce cost $4.00 and a motel room $300.00?

away like ShrubCo is trying to do, then all those laid off, over-educated folks will be willing to take whatever jobs they can get at whatever wages are offered.

Sheesh. Like lawns didn't get mowed and coffee didn't get served and vegetables didn't get picked back in the day when people were paid fairly for their time.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

that illegals here in CA have?

The car wash owners out in California, for instance, who've been busted up in the past for knowingly hiring illegal aliens for exorbitant hours and sub-minimum wage would have to become less greedy and pay workers, who would be US citizens, their fair day's share.

If given the choice between my pride and putting some damn food on the table, I choose food.

on to the consumer/customers.
Thats my point.

Nothing can be gained without losing something else. I believe paying some more is absolutely justified, especially if it is the end result of making sure people are not treated as virtual slaves. When compared to the misery of our poorest among us, a few bucks more at the gas pump, the grocery line, and so forth is a small price to pay to alleviate some of the suffering in this world.

It's too useful as a wedge issue with their racist base, and their corporate paymasters need the stoop labor.

No one wants to admit that no one wants those jobs in the first place.

Here in the midwest, many meatpackers use immigrant labor. It's dirty and dangerous work, and while people bitch about the migrants in their towns, no locals are exactly clamoring to take those jobs themselves.

for those jobs.



used to be a time when meatpackers had a Union and a strong Union at that, and it was a skilled trade.

The Wal-Martization of our economy's been in full swing for some time now, hasn't it?

and that's really the issue here...there's so much we'd have to roll-back (pardon the pun) in order to really set things back to rights for the american worker, that it's a bit daunting. and the truth is, yes, prices would go up, but at the same time we would have more consumer money in our economy.

Having lived in California, and briefly in Arizona, I can tell you that I always found much more anti-immigrant hysteria in those states from white people than I see in Texas. People in this state tend to view immigrants as the "kitchen help", which is a less abrasive form of anti-immigrant attitudes.

but they came here legally.

How would you like to the poor person waiting patiently to come here legally? Why bother waiting?

Everyone wants immigration,but legal,not illegal.

can spend their spare time working in the packing houses and the fields. Even little kids can legally work in the fields!

with everything you just said. They actually say the same things themselves.

If they weren't available your hail damaged roof would still get repaired, it would just be repaired by a better paid US manual laborer. I can assure you that if there were no cheap illegals, your storm damaged roof would still get fixed.

Americans don't do those jobs because they aren't offered at competitive wages when you can hire illegals for $3.50/hour. I know a handyman who employees illegals on a by-the-job basis, pays them $5.00 an hour and bills the time at $12.50. If he were paying $10/hour a lot of unemployed people would do the work.

Americans not wanting the work is not true, only not wanting the work at sub survival wages.

.

first the pay should be brought back up to minimum wage, at least, more for the dangerous jobs (meatpacking, construction, etc).



secondly - i'm sure there will be plenty of unemployed people who would willingly take a job that pays at least minimum wage. who was doing it before we started hiring illegals?


lastly - why not make those jobs available to welfare recipients who are able to work? that way we can move towards workfare, and while they are earning a paycheck some of that welfare money can go to providing transportation vouchers and childcare.

for them and they wont be draining the system by staying at home and having kids who will further drain the system."

Ever hear that line from a RW/repug genius before?

I think of General Electric and Halliburton doing work in Iran and not paying taxes.

if there are entry level jobs to be had, there are people on welfare who will gladly work them. especially if it would give them health insurance too.

i think it was in a Michael Moore movie where some women on welfare marched on the Michigan Governor's office saying they would be willing to take those jobs.

in the end tho, without support in the form of transportation and childcare, it wasn't a viable option, but still.

It would almost be like legalized slavery.

it's not like people wouldn't be getting paid.

we're not talking about the disabled on social security. we're talking about people on welfare, who are receiving money from the government because they are unable to provide for themselves.


if anything i think the current iteration of welfare is more like slavery. it's basically a paternalistic setup that ensures that the state gives you everything, much like living on a plantation.


give people a leg up, an opporutinuty to work for themselves, and they will do it, and have pride int he work that they do.

if you're uneducated and untrained, you have to start someplace.

I can't afford to pay more to get my house cleaned, or to do my yard work, or to pick my tomatoes, or to wait on me. If Miguel is replaced with Michael and I actually have to pay him? And provide insurance? How un-American!

Only with a depressed labor pool is our economy possible.

Some new class of Americans would need to take those jobs.

then screw 'em anyway. No, Americans generally won't work under those conditions for next to nothing, but thats because we have reaped the benefits of Organized Labor. And I, as a Union member am very happy about that. But as a man who has been victimized by "downsizing"(I hate that term), I would most certainly take a menial job. In fact, I kind of have one now. Sometimes I think people should have to do hard labor just to get a taste of reality. And they should get paid well for it and be treated like humans, rather than dogs. The main reason prices of Union made products are higher than non-Union products is because the CEO's need to make enormous amounts of money. And generally Union made products are better quality than non-Union ones.

greater than that of exciting fuffilling jobs, but because of the inequity in our economy, it is exactly the opposite. Unskilled labor has very little clout in the free market.

Exploiting Illegal Workers is a good thing?

The only reason that Illegal workers are hired is because the employers can exploit them and make a big profit from cheap labor. The Illegal construction worker has done nothing to keep housing cost down. Last year was the first year ever that the U.S. has imported more Agriculture products than exported and the trend will continue.

You can have someone build your garage for 30k w/mexican labor or 55k w/union labor -same quality- which do you choose?

I would take Union labor.

Maybe better would be; Your buying a house- 1 costs 200k,the other 300k. Now you can't tell any difference-same street,same size,same style. Don't kid yourself, you know which house most people would take. My simple point the market is comprised of people looking for the most for the least ammount of money. Competition is fierce.

eventually a decent wage would have to be paid. You can't outsource apple pickers to China, you can't outsource hotel maids to China and you sure as hell can't outsource lawn mowing. There was a time in our country where EVERYONE could exist on what they earned in some fashion or another. That's no longer true. Poor is not just eating hamburger anymore, it's living in a Maytag box and going to a charity meal. Society cannot function without service jobs and it's not fair for us to take advantage of those individuals - legal or illegal - by paying immoral wages.

should rise in the USA. Unless of course you allow huge mass migration. So you get foreign workers in here so that wages do not rise. But you do not give them citizenship so that when they require something out of the system (like extended health care, or retirement) they get sent back home.

That way the American workers in the USA do not get to make a killing by being such a small group working all the jobs.

Don't ya just love them elites!

ELITES GONE WILD!

"I get to go to work today". He was born in 1917.

There was a time when it was an honor to have a job - any job - so you could pay your way and/or pay for your family.

Now days, it seems that some people would not 'lower' ones self to work in a particular job. I pity those people. A working man/women has more clout with me than most people. They are the ones who share the ethic of 'earning a living'.

As one previous poster put it - 'to good for a particular job - fuck them'.

They come here, go to college, take higher paying jobs, then send money back to smuggle more relatives over, and the cycle continues on.

I personally know them. Fake papers are easy to get

I mean, really? how many of them are coming over and going to college. They have to be US citizens or legal immigrants to go to US colleges. Many kids, who came were brought here as kids, succeed in scholls and are offered scholarships but they cant cant go, because of their status. is that the fault of kid, who has only known the US as their home?

No, it's their parents. Maybe there are caes of that happening but in my line of work, I dont see it.

and Social Security Cards. They are more prevelant and easy to get than you might think.

There are already special permits employers have with the federal government where they are allowed to legally fly or bus in lots of foreign employees (especially from Mexico and Jamaica) for agriculture and hotel jobs. The employers bring them into the Social Security offices to apply for SS numbers so they can go to work immediately since they are legal residents.

That's what already happens in areas with few people willing to work for less. Why should "unskilled" jobs be paid minimum wage? If the market dictates that hotel maids be paid $9/hour instead of minimum wage, what is wrong with that?

the situation is, as usual, more complicated than the sound bites.

There still is a work ethic out there, and those at the bottom get ground up, just as it has always been and probably always will be.

During the recent construction boom around here, union guys were actually getting work, but it was getting tougher. Other than the union guys, there really aren't that many carpenters and tradespeople available, so they get semi-skilled Mexicans at the designated streetcorners and dayjob centers. The Mexicans get paid as much as 20 bucks an hour-- which kids around here could be paid if they were able to take the old Vocational courses that the high schools dumped over the years. And, if the kids weren't constantly told that they were useless if they didn't go to college.

It's tough to find a qualified auto mechanic, too, and everyone from dealers to small garages are bitching and hiring immigrants who actually have some experience fixing cars.

On the other hand, office cleaning has been contracted out to dozens of private companies, who relentlessly bid down to get the contracts. This has resulted in just about the entire cleaning crew being illegal at very low pay. Amazingly, Lisbon Cleaning had the contract for Newark Airport, and their obviously illegals were sweeping around the feet of Immigration inspectors for about two years until someone noticed. They were kicked out of the International Arrivals area, but still had the contract at other terminals. Fascinating that illegals have access to just about every corner of the buildings, isn't it?

The last time I was involved with payroll, major hotel chains around here were paying maids by the room, not by the hour. They got around $3-4 per room, so could make a few bucks if they were REALLY fast, but most weren't fast enough to make a real living.

The garment industry, limo and truck drivers, and a lot of others know the glorious benefits of the variations on "piecework." Immigrants are taking these jobs as entry to the workforce, and often do their damndest to get out.

Just like it's always been.

Look as bad as it is out there many would be filled. If they don't pay enough to be productive then the job is not needed that much. Would rather pay 20 cents more for a head of lettuce and have the worker be able to survive or just let every job go to the lowest price.

"They have to be US citizens or legal immigrants to go to US colleges."

Wrong! Do some research.

U.S. Corps need to be scrutenized closely in this matter. The costs of having legal workers, at least minimum wages and even benefits don't necessarily "need" to drive up prices.