Dang teachers got an easy life.

That was the idea that someone was posting in the "Latest Breaking News" forum. By the way, this post is just about an exact copy of reply # 177, so if you got that far, ignore me. Posters were talking about the posh lifestyle of teachers. $104,000 salaries. Summer homes. What a load of crap.

Teachers cannot afford summer homes. Teachers can barely afford new homes. I come from a family full of teachers, and I can tell you that there's not a one of them with a summer home, or even close to the means to have a summer home. Or a time share. And the summer vacation had better be within driving distance, because there's not enough money for airfare.

Teachers with summer homes. Jesus H. Christ, what a whopper. I suppose we'll hear next about Burger King managers who own their own baseball teams.

Until you get into the trenches and teach, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Summers are spent on professional development, or another job. Not to mention having to decompress from the spring. And yes, decompress. Decompress because of all the parents who care, but think their child is an inspired genius who's an angel, when that kid is of average intellect and lackadaisical attitude (and don't tell me that teachers are supposed to inspire that attitude from scratch - you inspire your teenager to love something they don't want to do like mowing the lawn or taking out the trash and then come see me) and who is an intermittent interruption. Decompress because those parents think those same angels have a right to an A and are shocked that an average kid with crappy attitude gets a C. Decompress because of all the "instant expert" parents who think they can teach you how to teach science or literature or history because they were able to teach Junior how to catch a baseball in 15 minutes in the back yard. Decompress because of the parents who don't care and who have passed that attitude to their kids. Decompress because of the kids who you can see potential in but don't want to reach it because of the attitudes they've been taught. Decompress because of the kids who have potential and want to reach it and still can't because of their socioeconomic standing. Decompress from the constant, never-ending Niagra fall of paperwork.
Decompress from standardized tests made by "experts" who have spent zero time in the classroom that you have to teach to. Decompress from incompetent administrators, or administrators who are competent but are overloaded. Decompress from knowing that your classroom could be so much more with more money and less rigid curricula. Decompress from having at least one-third of at least one of your classes be inclusion kids who have some sort of emotional disorder and distract the other kids, and are in your class because idiot experts who haven't stepped foot in the classroom have decided that everyone can learn in the same classroom when some kids have clearly different needs. Try to forget the idea that in the fall, all of the same drawbacks will still be there because idiot people think that teaching is some kind of easy, lazy lifestyle. Realize that you, like many other teachers, care enough to go back despite the drawbacks.

There are so many things that I get tired of. People touting private schools. That's crap. You know why private schools score better? Because they have the option of selecting whom they admit, and kicking them out when they feel like it. Take the bottom 50% in aptitude and attitude out of public school classrooms and you'd see some grand public school success stories.

People telling teachers that because they're ennobled by public service, they should be content with less money. You know why firefighters and police officers and teachers get paid like crap? Because they all care enough to do the job and accept low pay as a consequence. It means that our society is least willing to reward those who are willing to contribute the most to it. That's is fundamentally perverted. Oh, and try paying the mortage with nobility. Tell the bank manager s/he should lose a few payments and feel ennobled because they're helping you stay in a house and see how quickly you lose that house.

I get tired of people saying that school should be run like a business. That analogy is completely inappropriate. The bottom line of a school is education. The bottom line of a business is money. And as for accountability, if you've got a subordinate who's affecting your job rating because of lack of motivation, in a business, you can fire him/her. How are you going to fire a kid? You know who's all gung-ho for accountability testing? Ann Coulter. That's how much sense it makes.

I get tired of people saying that throwing money at a problem is no solution. It's a hell of a good solution when lack of money is the problem! Tell you what: you put funds into the hands of teachers first, teacher trainers second, local administrators third, regional administrators fourth, state administrators fifth, and experts last, and you'll see improvement. You want to know why money gets wasted? I'll tell you why. Here in Georgia, there's been a big to-do about how the state is devoting more money to getting new math/science teachers into the classroom, and not one single communication on how to improve the situation has come to the department head of the math and science education department in the flagship institution of the state. You know why? Because of politicians who are instant experts (i.e., morons) when it comes to education. That money will be wasted on some stupid scheme that will make zero difference. Shoot, I'm just a grad student, and I can name some things involving money that would make the situation better immediately.

1. Raises for existing teachers. You want high quality, try paying for it. You're expecting Gucci shoes on a Buster Brown budget.
2. Training pay for student teachers. In what other profession do people pay for their initial on-the-job training?
3. Supplemental pay for teachers who mentor student teachers.
4. Put up the money for more full-time faculty for education departments.
5. Provide more funding for university-mentor teacher coordination.

Then there are other issues. If you've got to have an end-of-course test, the hell with ETS and other such testing agencies. Put together a team of veteran teachers in each subject and have them make out the test, and yes, give them a fat bonus for doing so. Give teachers more input into the mandated curriculum.

Of course, none of these things will happen because liars or people with agendas spend so much time propagating the idea teachers shouldn't be paid more for their carefree lifestyle and their summer homes.

....and we were LUCKY to have a home, much less a summer home! LOL!!!

both my mother and father were teachers for 30 years and I don't think either of them broke 55k a year.

I knew an elementary school principal in Portland. She was very dedicated and clearly cared about the kids, and I was surprised to learn from her that principals do NOT get long summer vacations, just one month.

I also heard about how kinds of unfunded state and federal mandates were driving her and her staff crazy.

I do believe that the curriculum could be more rigorous and that discipline could be better, but on the whole, I think that anyone who thinks teachers have it easy should be required to walk into a class of seventh graders and try to teach them--whatever subject the critic chooses.

I think a lot of people believe that teaching is just walking into a classroom and bullshitting for an hour. If it is, then you've got a bad teacher. Good teaching requires lots of preparation.

Why else do you think we would put up with all of this endless bullcrap?
Peace!

..some great points. I feel like I was reading my own rant.

I'm a retired teacher (30 years). My summer home for many year was the YMCA where I worked. No pay in the summer months. And when we asked for a pay increase we were told, "you only work 9 months a year". (actually we worked 10) Hence don't compare yourself to any other professionals.

Professionals = the word used when the wanted us to work for nothing.

Thanks for the post.

I'm a teacher, working in a small University in the mid-South.

My salary is inadequate. So I have begun working another job in Real Estate to pay the bills.

I was trained as a classroom teacher for high school, but when I got out of college I couldn't get a job. I had no experience. So I went to graduate school and got a master's degree. Applied again.

I was overqualified.

The people in the public school system around here are, for the most part, a joke. They got their jobs because they knew somebody, or were related to somebody. Once they get it and get tenure they slack off. None of them work that hard. When I was doing my teacher training I was amazed at their lack of energy and vision.

The public wants dumb teachers. People who challenge the children to think lose their jobs.

So while I agree that teachers are undervalued, I also feel they are not, at least in this district, very good at what they do. And this is borne out when we get the students in college and see what they haven't been taught.

The most important missing ingredient? Learning to think independently, on their own, and to apply knowledge.

Our system doesn't value it; we have to add it in on our own; we're swimming up stream.

Like any other profession, not all teachers are the same. Not all are the "best" in their field. I've seen another factor you haven't added in, though.

I just don't buy the "tenure" argument. The burnout that you see really has nothing to do with tenure; and that's what it is. Burnout. New teachers start their careers full of ideals and energy. Several years of getting squashed by bureacracy, and cannibalizing their lives and budgets to make up for lack of support for their classrooms, and they are worn out. And discouraged, and, in some cases, angry. Then they put their feet down and refuse to do it all themselves. They do what their contract requires, and no more. It's burnout, and it's resentment. Because the system depends on all of the "free" extras that teachers provide. When you don't see any hope of change, and when you realize that your personal sacrifices have not been appreciated, but expected as the status quo, you quit offering them up. That's burnout, and that's where the lack comes from.

Address the conditions that cause burnout, and you'll see more energy and vision. It has nothing to do with tenure.

I was so 'burned out' that I left in disgust at mid-term a few years ago! Seventeen years in the system and I gave it all up because I knew I no longer had the heart for it.

I saw that happen even in the 1960s.

As long as we have local control, dumb communities will have dumb schools.

Its not about local control, its about most Americans being anti-intellectual, scared and ignorant.

My dad was a career high school teacher. He spent his evenings grading tests and his summers tutoring to bring in more money. He owned a VW Beetle until he couldn't fix it anymore and then bought a Fiat. We swam at the community pool, and our annual family vacation was a one-day excursion to the shore.

OUR summer home was our grandma's house the next town over. (Actually us kids spent a lot of time there year-round and I wouldn't have had it any other way.) Dad's income when he finally retired in the 80s was $20K/year!! THINK about that. A lifetime devoted to educating our young people and he topped out at $20,000 -- around $39,000 in current value.

Anyone who thinks teachers generally make big bucks doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Teachers have been getting the shaft for decades and it's only gotten worse under bush**.

You just hit my salary. I've taught 13 years with a masters degree and make $40,000.

I grew up with a teacher for a mother, and can completly resonate with every single point here.

Once, back in 1968 or '69, I got a peek at my mom's pay check-- $324 take-home pay for one month's work. Even back then, that was peanuts. No wonder we were stuck drinking powdered milk instead of fresh milk.

We were all sitting around the dinner table discussing life, and the man across from me decided to show his brains. He says the problem with teachers is, "What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"

He reminds the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about teachers: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. I decide to bite my tongue instead of his and resist the temptation to remind the dinner guests that it's also true what they say about lawyers. Because we're eating, after all, and this is polite company.

"I mean, you're a teacher, Taylor," he says. "Be honest. What do you make?" And I wish he hadn't done that (asked me to be honest) because, you see, I have a policy about honesty and if you ask for it, I have to let you have it.

You want to know what I make? I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could. I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor and an A- feel like a slap in the face. How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best. I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall in absolute silence.

No, you may not work in groups. No, you may not ask a question. Why won't I let you get a drink of water? Because you're not thirsty, you're bored, that's why.

I make parents tremble in fear when I call home: I hope I haven't called at a bad time, I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today. Billy said, "Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don't you?" And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen. I make parents see their children for who they are and what they can be.

You want to know what I make? I make kids wonder, I make them question. I make them criticize. I make them apologize and mean it. I make them write. I make them read, read, read. I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful over and over and over again until they will never misspell either one of those words again. I make them show all their work in math, and hide it on their final drafts in English. I make them understand that if you have brains then you follow your heart and if someone ever tries to judge you by what you make, you pay them no attention.

Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true: I make a difference; what about you?

I just emailed it to my Dad. Thanks for sharing! :)

On edit: Hear it here. Get the full poem with gems like

and i wish he hadn't done that
asked me to be honest
because you see, i have a policy
about honesty
and ass kicking
which is
if you ask for it
then i have to let you have it

http://www.taylormali.com/index.cfm?webid=9

poem is 'what teachers make'

Where's the huge salary?

Where are the long, paid vacations?

Where are all the perks that teachers share with CEOs?

My parents were teachers and drove rusty, old VW Beatles with holes in the floor. I used to have to raise my feet when we hit a puddle. Vacation was a long, hot ride in said vehicles to and from relative's houses.

I'd like to say some nasty things to whomever is writing fiction about rich teachers livin' high on the hog... but I'll bite my tongue. :(

I first read this when I taught at a school in Virginia. It affirmed what I already knew (working in special education, I had a good insight regarding this subject.

http://www.nysut.org/newyorkteacher/2002-2003/021009pointofview.html

:hi::toast: welcome to DU.

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Lots of us live in "right to work" states. There's no union (with any clout or teeth) here.

You generalize & stereotype beyond belief, kinda like those who believe myths like those of "welfare queen" and the homeless who want to be homeless.

Average Salary in my district is $32,000. AVERAGE.

Did you read everyone else's posts? Teachers have to work in the summer, they do NOT get months of vacation days a year! They DO work Saturdays, evenings, etc. They coach your kids, sponsor their French Club, mentor kids, spend an average of probably 70-90 hours a week WORKING. Most aren't in unions, and those that are are often legally not allowed to strike. They can be arrested and fired. They pay for school supplies, including books, out of their own pockets. Hmmm... which of the 20 phone calls should the teacher return on their own time, when they are with they own families in the evening? they sure don't have time to do it at school/. Planning time? That's at night and weekend! They are lunch monitors, etc. The teachers I know can't get the parents to return THEIR calls. They are not whining when they ask for decent pay and respect. Are their a few very rich school districts in the US? Yeah, a FEW. And, the superintendent might drive a BMW, but the teachers sure as hell don't.

My nephew goes to a HS where evolution can't be taught. My nephew asked his biology teacher for a good book about the subject. Guess what? His lazy, whiny teacher met my nephew at the library on a Saturday and gave him a four-hour tutorial in evolution, including handouts and a bibliography. What a lazy guy! Another one of his teachers encouraged him to write and enter an essay in a competition where he won second place. Lazy, whiny woman! Oh! I forgot about his home room teacher who helped him get an internship with a local wildlife center to help him get into college.. Hmmm... I think this may be the same lazy, whiny bitch who does after-hours work with kids filling out their college applications. Geez, and they get paid HOW MUCH??? $30k a year? Jesus! They are so ripping off taxpayers!

Are you whining about not wanting to "waste" time off from work going to a school conference? Are you serious? then don't have kids!


And guess what? I'm not a teacher, and have no close relatives that are. I just respect them. They rock, for little pay and -- obviously from these threads -- no respect. Teachers taught me self-respect and love of books and so many other things I can never, ever repay. Priceless. SO A SHOUT OUT TO ALL OF YOU TEACHERS!!!

...to all of the activities you mentioned in your post. He still found time after each season was over to load a couple of promising players in his car on the weekends and personally drive them to various colleges around the state to introduce them to college coaching staffs in an effort to get athletic scholarships for them.

Dad retired from teaching in 1985, got bored, and returned to coaching in 1988. He finally quit for good in 2002...after 55 years of coaching and helping kids get to college. His former students and players still call and write to Dad to let him know how everything turned out...like the former Army general who is the current president of the University of Alaska, and all of the lawyers, doctors, business owners, and yes....even teachers and coaches. Good thing none of those guys were as lazy as Dad!

And my late Mom was a department head at her middle school...which required a ton of duties over and above her normal daily tasks. Gosh, what a lazy old woman she was!

It kinda makes me sick that he wasn't fired for that. Well, if he had, he could have at least went fishin' at his summer home...

:yourock:

Why is it that parents never return phone calls?
Why is it that parents can't even get their kids to school on a regulat basis?
I give up my evenings for parent teacher conferences (that would be 6 hours of unpaid work this week). How unimportant is your child that you can't arrange for one hour off per year to discuss your child's education? It's been on the calendar since August, there's no reason you couldn't have made arrangements months in advance to switch your hours on that day.
Why do parents allow their kids to go out with their friends instead of making them stay in and do homework, when they KNOW they are failing? And why do they then blame the teachers for it?
Why do the parents lie their asses of, worse yet about things we witnessed that they didn't even see? If I personally saw johnny with a sheet of test answers, or copying someone's work, or I saw him smoking cigarettes, don't tell me it didn't happen. Believe me, I have better things to do that fabricate reasons for conflicts with parents.

And the tenure means nothing nowadays. Every single teacher in my district had their hours cut last year. It was announced on a Thursday night, Friday morning the teachers had a meeting and unanimously voted to continue working a full day though we wouldn't be paid for it, so the kids wouldn't feel the impact. The kids didn't see it, but teachers behind the scenes were in tears, having to take second jobs despite having young kids at home that they needed to spend time with, I know at least one had her phone shut off at her house because she couldn't pay the bill. I am not familiar with this "job security" that you speak of.

That's not resentment against the kids, or against the decisions we made. I gave up a job that paid nearly 4 times what I make now, because this is what I wanted to be doing with my life. I don't regret the choice. But if some parent wants to start telling me that I'm not working my tail off during those "vacations" - well, I would suggest that they try spending a month preparing a couple of different presentations every single night on their own time, spend the next month in a room of 30 youngsters for eight hours a day, and as was mentioned above, make sure a third of them have special needs of one sort or another.

Oh, and the next time you see a fight in public, step into the middle of it and break it up, even if you are a 5'2" woman and they are 6' tall men. Go on, try it. You may end up taking a punch to the head, but you know, it's all in a day's work.

The worst one I had to deal with was when I was seven months preggers and in the hallway. A bigger student actually stepped in for me when they took a break (like they always do--that's what I usually waited for). Of course, that opened us up to liability, but I wasn't?

I don't remember Union meetings in the living room! That's because there was NO union-

At your job, do you have to physically take care of other's while they are sick, even though you have no medical training?

Are you ever scared of disciplining your employees because their parent's might come in and sue you, or attempt to get you fired?

I personally think you have no clue what America's public school teachers are up against---and most of us don't live near the "Hamptons" or even know anyone who does.

You pay their salary, huh? Is that what this is really about? You feel like you get to be boss because some of your taxes (which pay for many other things as well) go toward the teachers?

Let me explain what an average salary is. It takes all the teachers, regardless of how long they've been working or what degrees they have, puts them all in one pile and divides it out. Your district probably has a whole lot of teachers close to retirement in order to have an average that high. All it takes is a few at the very top of the pay scale to bump the average up that high--talk to a math teacher if you need to review averages and ratios.

Principals? They are on a different pay scale, as management at your company probably is too. What kind of car does your CEO drive?

About vacations: teachers honestly don't get as many as people think they do. I taught in two different Catholic high schools, and I often was working on Saturday (for no extra pay--forget anything called overtime, as there's no such thing for teachers). My mom taught high school art in the public schools for 35 years, and it was an odd Saturday she wasn't working. See, here's the problem: you only count the time you see them in a classroom, but there's so much more to the job. There are hours and hours of work outside the classroom that no one ever sees. I would never judge your job based on only what I can see, so why do you judge teachers based on what you saw as a student or see as a parent?

If your kids' teachers aren't returning your calls, you need to get the principal involved. I had a parent I was told never to return a phone call to (I'm not saying you're as scary and abusive as she was, but there are parents who, for the safety of the teachers, we aren't to directly communicate with if no one else is there), and we actually weren't even supposed to meet with her without the principal there. I had parents calling me at 6:30 am and 9:30 at night, as we were required to give out our home phone numbers (being a private school). Even in student teaching (public school), I was required to return every phone call and have a conference at the time the parents could come in.

Teachers are never wrong? Okay, I can't help you with that one, as every teacher I ever worked with had no trouble admitting guilt if it was there or apologizing if need be. It sounds like you have some huge chip on your shoulder about teachers, and maybe that's the problem you're having in communicating with them. I always was more on guard with attacking parents than I was with listening parents.

Blessings.

...Hamptons might have a pay scale way above the norm, and represent a very, very small percentage of teachers nationwide? Your comments make it very clear to anyone with half a brain that you have absolutely no clue what it takes to be a teacher in today's society.

You evidently have a personal issue with teachers. I can definitely see why your teachers probably had a personal issue with you.

The southern fork of Long Island is a very expensive place to live, taxes are phenomenal, and even gas is regularly 20-40 cents a gallon more than it is on the north fork. A 70k avg. sallery in the hamptons is not that much, especially when you factor in that the administrative officials are probably gettig the bulk of that, leaving less for the teachers.

My district was a rich town in Connecticut known for its school system.

Having to take time off from the career for one meeting with a teacher is too much of a strain...

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Whaaat? I don't think so.




Maybe you are talking about the district administrators? That I could believe. But certainly not the teachers.

http://www.nea.org/edstats/index.html

a top salary of 64K.

The average teacher has 15 years of classroom experience and more than half of today's teachers (56 percent) hold a master's degree or 6-year diploma. Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) began full-time teaching within the past five years.

Teachers spend an average of 50 hours per week on instructional duties, including an average of 12 hours each week on non-compensated school-related activities such as grading papers, bus duty, and club advising.

More than three-quarters of teachers (77 percent) participated in system-sponsored professional development activities during the school year; more teachers than ever (35 percent) participated in such activities during the summer.

Teachers spend an average of $443 of their own money each year to meet the needs of their students.

Three-fifths of teachers (60 percent) said they would become teachers again. More than one-fifth (21 percent) said they would not choose teaching as a career if they could start over again.
http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030827.html

in response to your comment about your principal driving a BMW, that's your principal, there's a big difference between the teachers and the administration.
from my knowledge, principals and deans of jr highs and high schools get to lap it up in comparison to the teachers who are really working their butts off...

You asked, "Why do I have to lose a day of work to conference with a teacher?"

Because it's your CHILD! This is not about YOU. It's about your child. Deal with it and quit whining.

my mother made alot of our clothes, and we never, I mean NEVER went on a vacation. the only vacations he ever took, was because he was a french teacher, and through raising money with the school they went to france and to canada. And taking 20-30 teenagers to paris and quebec is no vacation. We had a garden and got most of our veggies from there. other teachers had farms where we would get fresh milk and meat. it's not like much has changed for teachers either. I see local teachers waiting tables in the summers or at other jobs in the area. fishing or lobstering.

I reckon it must be easy to think that Teachers have such a cushy life. All you have to do is close your eyes tight, put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala, I can't hear you." Or watch Fochs Noose.

Anyone who has spent more than a day with a Teacher can tell you how the work day ain't over when that last bell rings in the afternoon! My SO and I could have had years of quality time for ourselves by now if it had not been for her chosen profession. Goddess knows we would probably have been better off financially.

And whenever MoronAmerika gets its dumb ass in yet another crack, Teachers somehow must be to blame. What a load!

Welcome to DU. Your post certainly belongs on the Greatest page!

working about 60 - 70 hours a week. Yes, I have the summer off, but I don't think many other professionals would want to trade with me.

or teach summer school. Most teachers I know, especially single ones and single parents have to just to make it.

they earn and more!!!

It is exhausting work and they have to be nice to kids who are schmucks because their parents are raising them to be schmucks...

... I thought you were smoking something and I came here to ask you to put down the crack pipe.

But you were a bait and switch. Good. I'm wound up enough this morning. I agree with you 100%.

Teachers just don't get the money and the respect they deserve.

It's depressing to know that there are people out there who feel that teachers are undeserving. Teachers SHOULD be paid the big bucks for their committment to our kids, but how does one explain that to a simple-minded, greedy fuck who has no kids (Ann Coulter - I'm looking at YOU).
I have two very close friends who are just beginning their carreers as educators and so far both are not making enough to make ends meet. They deal with parents who have no inkling of the attitudes of thier children in the classroom, and are furious when teachers tell them things that thier kids must improve to be a good student.
Cheers to you, and your rant. :toast:
Thanks for taking our kids futures seriously and dammit - fight for better wages.

:hug:

Great rant.

I wish every single self-styled "expert" on the teaching profession one full-time year in a public school classroom somewhere.

So they must walk the picket line before and after classes. If anyone deserves to be well paid, it is those who spend 8 hours a day with not just my son, but 23 others....and they do it well.

I work 8-5 every day in children's services and make about $43,000 a year (with the 10% pay cut I took last year), and I am in one of the higher-paying social work jobs(school social workers are pretty much the only ones who do better, obviously). I work all year round, all summer and if I'm off at Christmas, it's only because I have enough seniority to take my vacation time then.

Detroit teachers with bachelor's degrees (which is what I have), and similar seniority, make approximately $10,000 to $12,000 a year more than I do. They work less hours, have less risk in their jobs, and get paid substantially more. Although I'm not complaining about my health care plan, because it is better than most, it isn't as good as what teachers have.

I think teachers deserve to be paid well, I just think we do in our field, too.

Let's not start this as a profession-bashing thread. No one here is saying that social work is less deserving of good pay than teachers. Keep in mind that Michigan's a closed shop state and that teachers in Detroit often get hazard pay, considering their work conditions. Those teachers often work through their so-called vacations, too--you just don't see it because it's not in the classroom.

Social work is a very tough, very demanding job and isn't paid nearly what it's worth. Teaching is the same way. Maybe our real problem is that society really doesn't value anyone who works with children for the future of our country.

and teachers are better off than out of work school social workers. I went back to school in 1995 as a 40 year old adult with a business background. I worked full time and had a blended family with 4 kids, so I had to attend grad school 1/2 time for 4 years. When I graduated with an MSSW in 1999 and a WIDPI license 50 I was 45 years old. Since graduating I have searched all of southern Wisconsin for a school social work position with no results. I have had quite a few interviews...some of them seemed to go very well.

I suspect that I shouldn't have taken to heart all of the messages that we get in this society about how people these days change careers many times....blah...blah...blah. No one seems to want older workers, even if their education is current. And then there is the guy thing. I seem to have picked one of a handful of fields where being a male isn't a good thing. In fact...once I began to get a sense of what was going on, I began to keep track of interview rejections and, as of this day, I have never been passed over for a job because they have selected another male. Oftentimes I have been the only male that has applied. When I was going to school one of my field advisors assured me that I would get a job right away as the need all of the men in the school social work field that they can get. She was correct...there are few male school social workers in this state. However, I suspect that that the reason there are so few guys doing school social work around here has little to do with the availability of qualified guys.

When I hear folks talking about how rough teachers have it, my first thought is...well at least their numbers aren't shrinking. I would take the money, and opportunity, that teachers are receive in a heartbeat.

After losing hope of finding a school social work position I threw in the towel and began to apply for any other social work job that was available only to find that I was not considered qualified to do any of them. Although I have an advance practice license with the state of Wisconsin, I don't have specific experience in whatever social work sub group I am applying for, i.e. hospital, geriatric, cps...I am fortunate that my wife has a good job.

Sorry if this rant slid a little off topic. I'm sure that you know how it is...the conversation just struck something in me that I normally do a good job of suppressing.

It would be difficult for me to get a job outside of state government at this point. I've been working in children's services for 18 years. When I first graduated from college in 1986, it was impossible for me to find a job in the private sector. I applied at hospitals, at places like Catholic Social Services, at residential facilities for kids and at nursing homes and could not get a job without either an MSW or specific experience. That's why I took my civil service test.

I'll bet you could get a job in CPS or CFC with the State, but you'd have to take their civil service test.

By the way, I did state in my post that I thought teachers should be paid well, but my point was that social workers should make at least what teachers make.

Noonwitch, I'm about to give you an education. Free of charge.

I am a school social worker. That means my day begins at 7:15 and ends, hopefully, by 4pm. I do not take a lunch because most of the meetings I need to schedule with HS teachers or others are held at that time. I do not take breaks and I am often called upon to call parents from my home in order to reach them whenever I can. Unlike teachers, I have no tenure. If a District wants to dump me, I'm gone.

I am called upon to provide extensive testing and evaluation for about 30 different disorders with on average 100+ students per year. For this I spend on average, 2 hours of report writing per student. I write these reports on the weekend because I have no time during the week. WHY? Because America your American children are throughly screwed up and they didn't get that way in the schools.

I provide direct service. I link children and families to community services. I sit on both school and community committees to improve whatever can be improved among the systems that society pays for to meet the needs of kids. And guess what? It ain't much. We are cheap.

I've been yelled at by parents, spit on, kicked, hit and have had threats made against me by parents. I beg school personnel and community personnel and parents to help their kids. I give kids breakfast, lunch and dinner. I have given them birthday parties when their parents were too poor or too uncaring to provide such an important gift to their child.

I tell parents their children are autisitc, are emotionally impaired, are cognitively impaired and yes that means they are retarded. I tell parents their kid is pregnant, gay , suicidal, or dead. There is nothing that I can't do in your job as a community social worker, but there is highly specialized work that I do in the schools that you cannot do. That is the way the law works. It demands ongoing training in my job and for that purpose I have to spend approximately 5 days out of the school year solely in training. That doesn't even include my summers when I attend several conferences a year that I pay for. To stay current I must do this training. Every day of my career I risk a lawsuit against the District if I make mistake in my evaluative work. School districts don't pay me to make mistakes, especially those that result in legal action.

If you are unhappy in your role as a professional, go to school, get the school certification necessary to become a School Social Worker and go for it. But don't ever mistake it as a nice, cushy, more well paying job with some mythical vacation time and cute little kids that you play games with to help them feel better. It's not like that at all and you'll be sorely disappointed if you think it is. I value my work and what I do for kids and THAT is why I demand more salary when I can. I am worth every penny.

A pizza can feed a family of four!

as one in a family of four with one parent a teacher and the other with a very volatile income (independent construction contractor) I thoroughly appreciate that joke :D :hi:

It was the same one as my winter home. I still live in that house. I retired almost two years ago at the top of our payscale - $44,250 dollars. It took me ten years to pay off the student loans I took out in order to get my teaching degree. Our family of four had one vacation while my children were growing up. We were able to do that because my mother left me four thousand dollars when she passed away.

I took one or two classes in the summer and then spent the remainder with my children. They deserved some time with mom after enduring school years when I would teach all day, haul home homework, return to school for meetings or conferences and spend one day every weekend working on lesson plans for the following week.

I don't even want to think about the hundreds of dollars I spent every year purchasing supplies for my classroom. Just let me say that every dollar I spent on my class was a dollar that I was not able to spend on my family.

So why did I teach? It was my job. It was what I trained to do. I loved working with little children, teaching them how to decode words and read. I wish that I could have done more for my own children during the years that I worked.

Just kidding. I figured i'd get it in before one of the less enlightened folks came down on you.

My wife's a teacher too, so i know of what you speak. She spends money on supplies, and treats, & stuff like that. We live in a small town with a small tax base, so she doesn't make anywhere near what you made before you retired, and she never will. (She's been doing this since the late 70's.) She's special ed, so the pay is even worse and she knows she's NOT doing it for the money. She can empathize and i fully sympathize.
The Professor

for keeping that inheritance for your family and not letting the state confiscate it. I'm sure your mother had medical bills of some sort, and it was horribly selfish of you to think that I should have to pay those when she was obviously wealthy since she had an estate.


Sorry, I was just channeling yet another unbelievable thread from LBN! :-)



You teachers are incredible. Not only do you gracefully (for the most part!) put up with snotty nosed, temper trantrum throwing, pre-pubescent, and all knowing adolescent children, but you also put up with their parents! And worst of all, you put up with administrators who typically don't know jack about a classroom, get paid 2 and 3 times what you make, and are often obnoxious boors to boot. You guys rock.

Thank you. BTW, I presume you're at UGA? I did my doctoral work there.

... and someone currently studying to switch into the field myself, I thank you very much for your comments, GAYellowDawg!

When I was growing up, our vacations primarily consisted of either trips to stay with relatives or going camping. I can't say it was a bad life in the least -- but it was hardly luxurious!

I think my parents topped out on their pay scale at around $45K for 30 years service in the early 1990's.

Now, my wife's district pays more -- but it's also in an area in which $2-3 million homes aren't an anomaly. And she still has to work in a building in which the heat often fails during winter and there's no air conditioning for the month of June. She spends a significant amount of $$ on her own supplies. She often brings work home as well. She's an incredibly talented and dedicated individual who makes a difference in children's lives, and she's worth every penny she's paid AND THEN SOME.

Nothing pisses me off more than people who rant about tenure. All tenure means is that you cannot be fired WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE. That's it. Prior to tenure, when my mom was starting out, all of the teachers would be let go at the end of the year and then hired back the following fall. If the relative of an administrator or schoolboard member needed a job -- you could be SOL. You didn't know if you had a job from year to year. If bad teachers keep tenure, it's not the fault of the teachers -- it's the fault of the administrators for not doing their job and monitoring them. Then again, I see those who like to blame teachers often giving inadequate administrators a free pass.

Teachers are trusted with the most important resource we have -- our future generations. I think that the lack of respect they are shown by many in our society demonstrates how little we value children as well.

and I was shocked at the amount of time teachers had to put into inservice, continuing education (required, not optional), workshops, etc. It was almost as bad as being in the Army reserve. Not to mention time spent grading tests.

But teachers who have to teach writing have it even worse. Some districts are requiring daily writing assignments from every student. Great concept, but someone has to look at each and every one of these and provide feedback. You think these districts are going to pay more for the additional hours required?

My teacher friends also tell horror stories about city families moving out to the 'burbs to get their kids a better education, and then they're angry that the kids have homework (which may not have been required in their old schools) and they want to tear the teacher apart when their kids don't get all A's in spite of doing NO WORK - hey - they did their part getting out of the city - now the teacher should reward them. .

WORD.

>My teacher friends also tell horror stories about city families moving out to the 'burbs to get their kids a better education, and then they're angry that the kids have homework (which may not have been required in their old schools) and they want to tear the teacher apart when their kids don't get all A's in spite of doing NO WORK<

We don't have kids, so it's interesting to us to listen to those who do bitch about the local school district. One of our neighbors, for instance, was incensed that her high-school daughter is required to do homework daily. It seems the homework cuts into her after school activities. Cheerleading practice is more important than academics, isn't it? This young woman's brother has been kicked out of school for fighting multiple times already, and he's 13.

It's amazing to me that anyone goes into (and stays in,) teaching while dealing with people like this. One thing's for sure, they aren't paid enough for it.

Julie

I think the teacher's salary depends a lot on where they teach. I have seen some numbers on the elementary school that my son goes to. K-5. Average teacher salary at the school is 66K. My brother lives two towns away. At his daughter's elementary school the average salary is 44K. Big differance just two towns away. And neither one of these two towns is a rich town.

This is in NJ. Teachers do not have it so bad in NJ, depending on what town you teach in. The NJ teachers union is VERY VERY powerful. NJ also has more school districts than any other state, at least that is what they say on the radio. There are like 600 school districts in this tiny state. So the union plays them all against each other for raises. If one town has some money and gives the teachers a raise, the other towns end up having to match it. And when it comes to negotiate that next contract they do not have a problem finding a town that they want to compare themselves to and want the same money as the teachers in that town.

Throw in not paying for benefits and nice pensions and I do not think that being a teacher in one of the many many nice rich suberbs of NJ is a bad deal. There are probably many teachers in NJ that have summer homes. Obviously other states and even poor cities in NJ are going to be differant.

Whenever someone posts the average pay for their district, would they PLEASE post the average years those teachers have worked and degree level they've earned? Teachers get paid more for years and education level. Check out the starting pay to know what's really going on. If your district has more teachers very close to retirement, your average salary is going to be higher than a district that just went through an early-retirement push and hired a bunch of new teachers fresh out of college.

I know because I've seen the payscale.
But they're working in Paterson, which is its own corner of heaven.

on edit: And that's for a BA, basely qualified person.

And that isn't so bad for a poor town. Consider that that teacher is probably making more money than the parents of his students.

I wonder if the resources they have for the kids compare.

I went to school there for a few years, some twenty years ago, and I had to copy xeroxed notes longhand because they didn't have enough money to let us keep the notes. Our books were old, too.

So if they're making 40K in Paterson, I can only imagine what they're pulling down in Morris County and Bergen County.

They start at about $30,000 in my area.

Also, there are tons of millionaires in our area. Teachers don't necessarily get paid more because they teach in wealthy areas, especially if they teach at public schools. It's very irritating because there are lots of wealthy families that send their kids to the school my husband teaches at. All the parents are so impressed with him as a teacher. They even think he should have some fancy job making lots of money. It's too bad he doesn't. However, my husband tends to be very unimpressed with these parents who are millionaires. They are very undeserving of their money. My husband is more skilled as an engineer than many of these high paid engineers. These people can't even help their kids with their very basic homework assignments. I think they feel slightly guilty for it too when they see someone younger, but more skilled than they are making crappy pay.

NYC teachers start at close to $40K now, but that salary is near poverty level (no, I'm not kidding!) in NYC.

There is no reason that teachers should not be able to afford to LIVE in the areas in which they TEACH.

a half-ways decent two bedroom apartment will cost at least $800 a month (on the low end). That's current rate in our area. Most places charge more than that. We are lucky that we moved here before that rates got so high and we were able to lock in a decent rate with our lease. The people that get our apartment after us at going to be paying about $819 I think. The management actually wanted to raise our rent to that, but we talked them out of it since we only are going to be here another three months. Our apartment has flooded completely two times in the two years that we've lived here. Every time it rains the windows leak. Our place is pretty old. We're paying $659, but like I said, we have barely anything left at the end of the month. We have a car loan and college loans to pay besides the standard grocery/utility bills.

I believe you that $40,000 is near poverty level to live in NYC. It's a very expensive place to live.

Granted, it's not a very well-off town, but the cost of living is still abnormally high -- especially for those who don't want to live in the "ghetto".

$800 for a 2-BR apartment? You've got to be kidding me! That won't even get you a studio or efficiency in a decent area in the greater NYC area!

Teachers also make $10,000 less in this area too. $800 is also the low end. You'll be lucky to find a two bedroom at that price these days around here, but you can find them. For $800 you get the very cheap, old apartments too.

My starting salary (granted, Catholic high school, but still) was $18,600. The going rate in Cleveland was around $24K or so for a first year teacher, but so many teachers had been laid off the year before we moved there, forget trying to get a job. One school told me that there were over 800 applicants for their job. Ohio has too many teacher colleges, frankly, and I would've taught at one of the schools out of state where I'd been offered a job if my husband hadn't been in med school.

Competition is very fierce for teachers in NJ (so I've found). A friend of mine ended up working at a Catholic school for about what you mentioned, and working part time at a gift store. She did that for a number of years, waiting for a public school gig.

Or should teachers everywhere else be paid more?

Another consideration: Housing prices. Do the teachers earn enough to live in the rich suburbs, or do they have long commutes?

I am not saying that teachers should be paid less. I was only trying to point out that in certain situations teachers can be paid well.

In NJ I think the median income is in the low 40's. So a teacher in either of the two towns that I just mentioned is going to be above the median. Once you are above the median in income I don't think you should be complaining about how much you make.

I don't know where the teachers live. But if the average is 66K, they should be able to live close to the job.

She will appreciate your rant. In our small town, the salaries are WOEFUL! Starting pay <$20k. <$20k for a college educated worker! That's preposterous.

Because she left the system for a while (she took 2 years off, then worked at a non-profit developing programs for mentally challenged adults), she lost lots of seniority. So, even though she graduated from college in 1976, she gets paid as if she has 5 years of seniority. The total after tax cash is pathetic.

She doesn't complain, and i don't either. It's a choice she made, and she can live with it, but that doesn't make such ridiculously low pay for a college graduate right.

Like i said, she'll appreciate this. I'll print it and let her read it.
The Professor

That kind of salery for a person with college loans to pay is almost akin to indentured servitude! Seriously, 20K/year?!? Damn, I know McDonalds workers who make more.

I was a half-heartbeat from writing that she could make as much money as a starting teacher at McDonald's. Course, that wouldn't have benefits, and she does have decent benefits. But, the salary is laughable, especially for Special Ed teachers, like my wife.
The Professor

for Montessori schools 20 years ago, I was paid $8K/year, with $1K/year raise. No benefits--no health nor retirement.

I had a bachelor's with dual majors in special ed and regular ed. My Montessor training was a master's equivalent (didn't feel the need to pay for silly credits at that point in my life).

One 10 minute break per day.

I worked after school and over the summer making teaching materials.

It was my calling in life, and in my 20s I did not care about financial rewards.

Life is different as you get older. You realize $ is not necc evil.

Oh well.

I changed a lot of children's lives for the better.

My husband is a teacher and you are 100% correct. Thanks.

and while some of the teachers make pretty decent money, they have been teaching for years to get to that point. But i don't any that have summer homes and if they do, then their spouse must make good money.

There's more than a billion dollars in Safe & Drug Free School money which has been carried over from 02', 03' & 04' that remains unspent by States.

where does one find that info?

SDFS funds can't be used to pay teachers' salary. It can be used to purchase curriculums that can help teachers with behavior problems in the classroom. The point is that Repubs are using the unspent and returned monies as reason not to increase ed budgets. See here..

http://edworkforce.house.gov/press/press109/first/02feb/unspent020705.htm

http://edworkforce.house.gov/press/press109/first/02feb/ncsl023505.htm

http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/109th/education/funding/fundingmyths.htm

I worked as a teacher for a short period of time. It was a hellish experience. I would probably like to teach again, but never again at an inner city high school. My husband is also a teacher, and a very good one. He's been teaching for three years now, but the district is going to lose yet another good teacher because they don't pay him enough money. He will be switching professions after this year. There's three people in my family (myself, my husband, and our two year old son), and we can barely afford to live in a crappy apartment off of his pay. My husband is too smart and over-qualified to continue to accept such low pay. The pay scale for teachers just isn't competitive enough. He teaches a full schedule of engineering technology and AP Computer Science. He also manages the computer network in his classroom. The tech guys at his school don't even understand enough about his network to be able to fix it if something goes wrong. So he has to spend time reinstalling, upgrading, repairing, etc. because the tech guys aren't competent enough to do it(even though it really is their job). Of course he has to spend his time doing all the other standard teacher jobs besides.

He is very good at his job, and he can manage all the tasks that he has to do very well. The kids and parents seem to really like his classes because his classes are different than typical high school level courses. The kids get to do a lot of hands on stuff and learn about engineering concepts typically taught in freshman and sophomore level college courses. The sad thing about his courses is that guidance throws in a lot of kids that are pretty bad students because the administrators have observed that my husband can handle these kids (their behavior that is). The material that he teaches is kind of wasted on the lower level kids, because they are just not ready to learn at the level that is needed to be able to understand even basic engineering concepts. Of course guidance and the administrators can't understand this because they were never engineering students, and they have no idea about the difficulty of the subject matter. It's a shame that he has to leave because they can't pay him more. I know the community is really going to miss him when he is gone. I think people just kind of take what he has to offer to them for granted. People appreciate him, but they really don't think about all he has to do for the job and how underpaid he really is. Being that he works for a public school, he can't get anymore money than any other teacher that has been working for three years anyhow.

She was forced into retirement after 23 years (she was HS Senior English honors, MENSA, etc...you know, quality). She raised my brother and I. An ace in her trade, tough (but fair), she worked late into the night grading papers, and throughout the summer preparing for the coming year. We were lucky if we had ANY extras at all. Everything was secondhand. I appreciate all her sacrifices and what she went without, and I'm proud of how she carried on in her profession.

My brother was elementary ed, and taught for a few years, but didn't get tenure. Then, couldn't find a job. Now, he doesn't teach at all, but he's employed well.

Those that think teachers have it easy, summers off, lots of money have lost any and all sense of reality. No...wait...they never had it to lose to begin with.

She just turned 30 years old last month, has a masters degree and has been teaching about 5 years. We live just outside of Syracuse, New York. She makes about $42,000 a year (4th highest average in the nation I think, so we are the lucky ones). For that she does the following:

1)Works approximately 12 hours a day (during the week)for 9 months of the year (I'm subtracting holiday breaks and summer).

2)During the summer she participates in teacher professional development and organizes changes to lectures, labs, etc.

3) She deals with parents that mostly do not appreciate what she tries to do for their children. Calls parents, has conferences.

4) She deals with administration that doesn to appreciate what she does for the children.

5) She is the International Club advisor, the National Honor Society Advisor, and the organizer for the Science Olympiad (science competitions for students). This year they built a trebuchet. All of these activites take time outside of the classroom, and certainly on weeekends and breaks.


6)She buys things for the kids. Candy at Valentines Day, various treats for when they are having their big state exams.

7) She fights with administration to try and make things work better. For example, one of the special education teachers routinely gives answers to students, expressly forbidden, instead of trying to teach them. Administration marvels at the results this teacher gets, and doesn't underatand how they later fail. Just pass them along, don't worry about actual knowledge.

She does so much more that I am sure I can not fit it all here.

I believe we have a tremendoulsy flawed education system that needs some serious reform. The way it is structured we deaden the natural desire to learn that children have, and if I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times...teachers are not baby sitters...at some point parents, in general, need to be more active in the lives of their children.

Olaf

and that is a HUGE time commitment. We had a really good team, and our advisors used to come in early, stay every day until 6 or 7 (or later, if we were getting close to a competition) and come in on the weekends, an extra 15 hours or so a week on top of all of their other stuff. I think they got paid an extra $300 a year for that - far below what the football coaches were getting paid.

But the teachers who coached our team made a huge difference in my life and a lot of my friends'. It required so much of them, and seeing that kind of dedication taught me at least as much as the stuff they were supposed to be teaching in class. I don't know whether that will be much help to your fiancee, but it couldn't hurt to tell her so, and you can tell her thank you from someone who knows the kind of commitment that takes. :hi:

It will probably make her day.

:hi:

Olaf

The differences between districts is where the discrepancies lie.

The majority of my friends are teachers. It's kind of weird. Of all the people I know 'education' is by far the highest percentage employeer. My sister is a teacher, and my mother was one as well. I'm connected to way too many.

Among them though there are two distinct groups. The majority make good money. A couple don't. The majority own nice homes in good areas, cars, and go on nice vacations in the summer. About 1/3rd don't work in the summers in any capacity. They relax, go on vacations, work on their homes...Though I know none with a summer home, a few probably could afford one.

The few that don't teach in religious private schools. They make crap money, and struggle to pay their rent, and maintain one car.

I think it depends on what school you teach in, what progress was made by unions in the past, whether you live in a right to work state, and where you live.

Teachers at a private school in Orange County are going to have a much harder time that people teaching in a rich public school district in Massachusetts.

It sucks but most of the misconceptions you mention about yourself and the teachers you know, and others make about themselves, or the teachers they know is that it's all anecdotal evidence and proves nothing. Even the stuff I wrote above. 100% truthfull. Completely inadmissable.

Teachers don't get paid enough, in general, but that doesn't mean that there aren't teachers making over 100k a year who have summer homes. In the district I went to high school in a relatively affluent area there was a couple who both taught there. They headed their departments, one had a PhD the other a Masters. They must have been in their 50's or so. They each made over 100k a year. I know this because I was dating the assistant superindendants daughter at the time, and we talked about it. It came up because he used to be a teacher at a poor private catholic school and made under 10k a year.

That couple was making over 200k combined. They sure could have afforded a summer home.

Again. Anecdotal.

Overall teachers need higher pay, more respect, smaller class sizes, better supplies provided by the district, and so on and so forth.

I haven't been in LBN today but I have a hard time with anyone believing teachers have summer homes and six figure salaries.

Here's the deal: I'm not exactly standing in line for food stamps BUT compared to the scope and the enormity of the responsbilities of a teacher, the pay is out of scale.

Huh. Yeah, I'm rich. What a laugh. Meanwhile I'm paying $900 for each three hour course to get a masters (that will be $10,000 total) and my pay will go up a whole whopping $1000 a year when I have my masters, which means I'll have to work in education another ten years just to break even with paying for the masters.

:wow:

...when you hear wingnut rants againsts teachers and public education. Teachers vote Democratic in overwhelming numbers. It's pure partisan politics driving much of the anti-teacher rhetoric.

The wingnuts would rather destroy public education than see it be a haven for so many Democrats.

I'm in total agreement.

And welcome to DU :hi:

:kick:

I am the daughter of teachers, and my husband (a teacher) is the son of teachers as well. It frustrates the hell out of me when I hear someone calling teachers lazy. Sure you might have a bad experience with one or two, but in general, they are inspiring and very hard-working.

I know I wouldn't have gotten very far without some amazing teachers in middle school and high school who turned me on to science and math. And I try to take the time to keep in touch with some of them and let them know just how much it meant to me. In fact, when I published my first research paper a couple years ago, the first person I sent a copy to was my high school biology teacher. I'll do what I can to ensure teachers receive appropriate support, but even if I'm not successful with that, I still like to let them know that I personally appreciate them.


"We're not going to have real security until we invest in our children" - Paul Wellstone

www.thechampion.org will give you every teacher's salary by district in the state of Illinois. The AVERAGE in the district where I used to teach is over 67,000, and that is for a 180 day contract, so figure it out on a full 50 weeks of work. If I calculated right, it's 97,000 a year, AVERAGE. If you troll around, you will find the 6 figures. A medical resident makes about 40,000, and has about 100,000 in school debt to pay off. A three year surgical resident will make 100,000, if s/he is lucky, when they start practice. And they will work 50-60 hrs a week every week, throw in rounds on weekends and midnight call outs. Decompression? PLEASE!!! Try the ER!! My friend who retired from the school district I used to teach at, retired at 57 with a 70,000 a year pension --in my community, the teacher's struck to have the taxpayers pay 100% of their pension. Try calculating how much money someone who doesn't have an employer pension must sock away to take out 70g's a year, starting at 57.

During the years I taught, I saw many dedicated teachers. I also saw many who weren't. I taught high school, and only the English teachers had heavy grading loads -- and since school went from 8 -2:30, working an 8-5 day, like most of the world, could get most of the grading accomplished (there was also a prep hour, and maybe a study hall hour to grade in.) We make our choices in life, and that doesn't mean any should work for peanuts, but put it in perspective.

Since it sounds like where you taught was such a great deal, did you finish your career there or did you go on to something else? If you did, why did you leave teaching. By the way your portrayal does not match my reality (especially the pension part).

If you were, you'd know that that prep period is rarely ever spent grading papers.

What about writing lesson plans? Attending parent conferences? Making parent phone calls? Writing up disciplinary notices? Making copies at the copy machine that is going to break for the 1,000th time this week? Attending ARDs? Having deparment meetings? Attending staff development workshops? Giving tutorial sessions before and after school?

Attending textbook selection committee meetings, curriculum committee meetings, sponsoring extracurricular activites at the order of the principal, the list goes ON and on, my friend.

If you did nothing but grade papers on your prep period, you were a sucky teacher.

I'll put it into perspective for you. You just misrepresented what a teacher's job is actually like (when did you get out of education? 1954?) AND most of the people bashing teachers, as you are doing, don't even stop to compare the pay VS the scope of responsibilities.

I worked easily 60 hours a week, so you can cut out that 8-2:30 crap. Oh so teachers get there right when school starts and bolt out the door right when the final bell rings? Yet another thing that makes me think either you never taught or you totally sucked. Teachers get there EARLY, they tutor, then start school and stay late. Many a day I didn't leave until 5:30 because of planning, doing research on an upcoming unit, grading, meetings, tutoring, etc. And I didn't even mention Meet the Teacher Night, Open House, etc.

When I factored in the hours I was there, plus the hours I worked at home it came out easily to 60+ a week. For two years, our grading period didn't end until after Christmas, so there I was over Christmas break, grading and correcting 157 term papers. Oh yeah, what an easy job! And over the breaks, I was busy scrambling to put together materials and lessons for the NEXT grading period. I wasn't the kind of teacher who used the same stale lessons year after year after year. Over the summer, I was in writing workshops, taking staff development sessions and taking classes through local universities to become a better teacher.

Ha! So go peddle that somewhere else. I'm not buying it because I've lived the life and while I LOVE teaching, I really hate people lying about it to make it sound like we have it easy and are overpaid.

To that I say

BULLSHIT.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I taught throughout the 1970's -- not the 50's -- in public as well as parochial schools, and in two different states, rural and urban.
If you teach in the South, from my experience, you are probably overworked and underpaid. I had a junior high class (hats off to anyone who teaches these grades as the kids are a handful) of 42-45 (depended on if they were helping in the fields) with reading levels from 1st grade to 9th -- an impossible situation. But my experience in the South didn't compare to that in the North.

I taught English, so I know about the relative load of grading, and I had a heavy extra-curricular schedule, for which I received a stipend which came out to be about 50-75 cents an hour for the time I put in, but I got paid, which is more than I could say for the father who worked a twelve hour day at the steel mill in 102degree temps. and then coached little league for nothing. I don't know what other things you have done in your life, but I get the feeling that you have never walked very long in others' shoes.

stopped teaching in the 70s but you think you know what it's like to teach thirty years later, huh?

What was that about walking in other people's shoes?
BTW, nice little rightwing website you got in your post.

Ahem.

but if you know of a left wing site that compiles this information, I'll use that -- don't think they do, however, and you know why. I am sure that teaching is different now --I am sure you don't have the discipline we did, and it was eroding fast when I left.

Actually you know nothing about my discipline. But I guess to you there are no good teachers left since you left the profession, right?

LOL

Thanks, I'm starting to understand your anti-teacher bias now.

Every elementary and secondary teacher I know who has retired in the last ten years bemoans the lack of discipline in the schools, and the deterioration they witnessed in discipline throughout their careers. At our local community college, we have numerous remedial classes because what we are getting out of the secondary schools is far inferior to what we once got -- now, I am willing to blame that on deteriorating discipline, personal and public, but every time I come across someone who makes the asinine statement you just did, I am less likely to do that.

My experience was very different from yours. Things have gotten much harder than they were in the seventies. Before you shake your head at that, I got that information from my mom--a high school art teacher of 35 years who just retired last year. Even she had to admit that her job was much harder than it was in the seventies and that mine, in English, involved more grading (although about the same prep-work for new units or classes).

They come in a newsletter each semester. Funding inequities in smaller districts, and those with limited industrial tax bases have a dramatic impact on teacher salaries.

I know what my wife makes. Your silly website doesn't do anything to change what she makes or my knowledge of that gross pay. So, i don't need it to know that my wife makes about 1/3rd of your example. Yes, ONE-THIRD! And, she's dual degreed and has worked since the late 70's! (Spec. Ed. and Social Work)

Also, nice twisting of useless statistics with your med res numbers. The med res makes their money on the back end. They ALL know that going in. A teacher NEVER ends up being a $500k/year earner. Many doctors hit that level. Over 95% hit $200k by age 45. (Check the Statistical Abstract of the United States)

Your facts are highly selective, your comparative analysis useless, your understanding of the time value money quite inadequate, and your whole post is incredibly insulting to the teachers who do NOT make these salaries. And, after going to that site, i strongly question your personal anecdote. The number of school districts paying an average that high are few and far between. Just as i suspected from the annual state salary survey my wife gets twice per year.

Way to disrespect and entire profession.
The Professor

with the site I posted until the cows come home, but those are the facts. Are there districts with lower average salaries? Of course, there are, and those are represented, also. (looking at individual districts will give you a better idea because if memory serves correctly, and I haven't looked at the individual stuff for several years, they indicate degrees/salaries) I chose the district where I once worked -- in the upper third from eyeballing it,so not few and far between, and also in the upper cost of living area of the state. Yes, the medical resident makes more money as time goes on --they also carry much higher debt, and that is for schooling, not practice set-up -- and as you say, just like a teacher "they know that going in."
Time/value/money???? You want to play off SAVING my life??? Nah, no comparison, for me. You can't even begin to put a price on it.
You really want to discuss disparity of income? I suggest you compare high school salaries in my state (I don't know where you live)to college professors, professor.
I'll have to look at your statistical abstract to see if the incomes you mention are net or gross, as overhead is 30-50% in private practice, and if those salaries are discounted by the cost of private health insurance, and retirement set-asides. We would want to compare apples to apples, since we did not include the value of those benefits for teachers in their salaries.

I just read through the website you gave. I do not think it is balanced. I will tell you though it does prove the theory figures lie and liars figure.

This line:
"The AVERAGE in the district where I used to teach is over 67,000, and that is for a 180 day contract, so figure it out on a full 50 weeks of work. If I calculated right, it's 97,000 a year, AVERAGE."
was the tip off. It is the way that every administrator tries to justify a skimpy contract. Only problem is, I dont get the other $30,000. Not the first year, or the next, or ever. If you want to compare something, compare the salaries of people at the same education level in different professions. Most of the people I work with have their Masters within 6 years of starting work. What do most people in other professions make with a masters?

By the way, the Nuke plant in the same town where I work employs operators who routinely make six figures. They work 180 days. Each region is different, I'm not complaining. I choose to work with the people I want to work with, kids. I just don't like your talking points.

if you don't want to deal in averages -- they are on that site, also. I don't know how any site which does nothing more than compile the numbers from the state can be unbalanced -- what is, is. I remember an impassioned speech by a veteran teacher when I taught, because the proposed contract loaded on the bottom and he was at the max and would get nothing more. It's all in your perspective, as I pointed out in the first post.
It would be nice if we could do a straight up comparison of degrees and jobs, but you know we can't -- how many athletes making 3 million have a Master's? I'm glad you understand that what is important in life is doing what you want to do and hopefully making enough money to live a decent life. I made 13,000 (Masters) when I left teaching -- three years later with a doctorate, I made 15,000, and that included working the summer. We make our choices.

I don't know if your site is balanced, if the "salaries" include benefits or retirement contributions etc. I am just saying that comparing a salary by adding $30,000 which I will never see may not be the best way of looking at it.

I appreciate your reasoned responses. I have noticed with all of us who have taught since the 70's that our memories become predictable. It was always harder back then, and we were more disciplined....on and on. The truth I see, since I'm still here, is that our young teachers are working as hard as I ever did. You and I had $15,000 salaries when my first brand new car cost 2800.00 and my first house cost 30,000. A gallon of Gas cost 50 cents (sometimes 25 cents if a gas war was going on). On top of that I didn't have to think about the cost of continuing my education at 900.00 per class for the rest of my career. I didn't have to worry about my job because if my students didn't hit the NCLB goals for improvement every year I could be fired.

I do see the same love for the job in the new teachers, the same concern for the students, and the same volunteerism. In fact if there is anything I see it is that I often tell them to be careful that they don't burn themselves out in the first few years by volunteering for everything that comes up.

You are right not to want to compare an entertainer with a teacher. Obviously there are many issues there. There are many other masters degree jobs which could be compared if someone wanted to but I really don't care that much. If I would have that as my reason to teach I would have quit long ago.

because the kids/families are different. I think teachers now have to be more things to more students.

and that doesn't preclude ever standing up for yourself again. Teachers choose to sacrifice a tremendous amount of their private lives, their public lives, and their earning potential so that they can provide opportunities to hundreds of other people. Some of them also choose to point out how little our country actually values education and how, were teachers paid a wage comensurate with their value to society, we might actually have a better educational system. Yes, teachers know that the pay is low when they climb on board, but that doesn't mean that the pay *should* be low or that the teachers shouldn't make an argument about conditions, etc.

And even with the individual salaries (probably particularly with the individual salaries) I don't find that site particularly useful. What is one to make, for example, of what the right-wing web site thechampion.org lists as the highest paid teacher of 2003-4. He made a salary of 173,077. But in the previous year, he wasn't even in their list of the top 100. Search for him by name, and you find that his salary the previous year was 83,904. So he apparently got a raise of about 90 grand. He's not listed at all from 2001-02. I've never heard of a teacher getting a 90,000 raise. My suspicion is that the extra income came from some source other than base compensation as a teacher. Or, perhaps he wasn't really a teacher, since some of the people listed on the top 100 teacher salaries are actually listed as "consultants." Or perhaps another explanation. But the bottom line is, even if this lucky individual received a 90k raise to his compensation as a teacher, it is clearly not indicitave of the experience of teachers across the district or the country.

I don't know a single teacher who has the time to grade papers, prepare lesson plans, etc. during their prep hour. That is usually when all their parent teacher conferences are scheduled, or when the teacher has to schedule her/his own doctors' appointments, etc. Grading papers is done at night and/or on weekends, and every six weeks a day (usually) is needed to review the grading period, average the scores, and actually issue a grade to students. I guess an elementary school teacher may be able to get that done a little faster since they don't have 6 or 7 different classes. But middle and high school teachers do have that many classes, usually with at least 25 kids in each class. Gosh that's an awful lot of papers to grade and scores to average.

And you haven't even touched on the lesson plans, one of the teachers' biggest pains in the arse in Texas, and I'm sure nation wide since NCLB.

But thanks for the reference to that right wing website. I'm sure it has a "fair and balanced" approach to dealing with teacher issues.

And that medical resident is still in *training*!! Tell the student teacher about the poor widdle resident only making $40,000 and you'd better start running before you get hit. And the resident has the median income of $164,000 of physicians to look forward to once s/he finishes training. The teacher tops out at around a median of $55,000. For preparing the next generation of doctors, lawyers, accountants, public servants, and yes, even teachers. But again, thanks for those right wing talking points.

Trust me, it was a hell of a lot easier for him in his training than in mine, when it comes to economic issues. I made so little as a teacher that it made more sense financially for me to stay at home with our children and keep the family and house going so he could work his long, long hours. He had more loans available to him in med school (we owe about $175K, if you're curious), got a moving allowance and help with buying a home for residency, and we're digging out of our debt with his nice salary now that he's an attending.

Please don't compare teaching and medicine. They're both hard, thankless jobs but with very different training levels. My husband took a year off of med school and taught--and even he had to admit just how hard a job it is and how exhausted he was every night! We have no arguments about that in our house.

before he was a doc. We couldn't have swung it financially without my teaching salary during those years, small as it was (but then our tuition and loans were only a fraction of what young docs face today -- it's all relative). My husband would disagree, however, on the relative hours, the responsibility, and degree of thanklessness. To be really good at either, to be really involved in your profession, is hard work -- my comparison was for those who think that a starting teacher's salary with a BS should be more than that of a first year resident.

There's another problem. You don't want teachers paid more than people who are underpaid for what they do? Residents in my husband's program averaged between 80 and 120 hour work weeks, covered codes and the unit (not all programs do), had the busiest clinic in town to cover, and David only got paid $37K when he started. That said, he also got a moving allowance, a zero-down mortgage with no PMI, a spouse support group, free counseling at any time, a mentor, and his testing costs covered.

I didn't get any of that when I started teaching. Did you?

and with it, 7 different preps, you deserve a hand. I had 5 different preps, and that was a load -- about 120 kids to grade and score. We weren't allowed to take care of personal needs during our day, like go to a doctor. Prep period was also office hours when kids could come in for help. School was out early enough to attend to personal needs.
A medical resident is an MD -- they are no longer in school --they are getting advanced training. They start to rotate after year 2 of med school, and like the student teacher, pay for the experience of working in a hospital or clinical setting, with tuition of about 40,000 a year these days. I was also a student teacher, and I know of no internship in college, which is what student teaching is, where you get paid -- in fact you pay tuition for the learning experience.

My kids would get passes out of study hall, and even other classes, to come and sit in on mine. To this day, a number of the kids I had still keep in contact -- the oldest is now 50. I had one who ran away from home, 400 miles, to get to me when I moved on. I have kept the notes from students on the impact I had on their lives -- things like "the only teacher who gave a damn about me." I was known as a task master, but the kids also knew that I loved them, and wanted the best for them, and expected the best from them. I may not have been the best teacher, but I don't think I sucked. The teacher never left me, it just carried in to other walks of life.

The average day in the life of an elementary school teacher involves at least 7 different preps. We teach all subjects and plan for different ability groups within subjects. Most days I get a 30 minute planning time which might be used for calling parents, getting work together for an absent child whose parent will be picking it up in 5 minutes, attending IEP or child study conferences, and if I'm lucky I might be even be able to take care of a "personal need"-going to the bathroom!
If I don't get these tasks done in that 30 minutes, there's always my 20 minute lunch break.

Are you kidding me? In Texas, a teacher is expected to handle 5-7 classes with only 1 or 2 prep periods. It varies by district.

And I'm not a teacher. Just a defender of the profession.

Meaning they have to prep for 5 different classes. Not meaning they have 5 hours of prep time.

5 preps for different classes, not 5 prep periods, one prep period. Here, you can teach 6 classes and have only one prep because the classes are the same, English Comp, for example. Generally, the low person on the totem pole, ie newer teacher, will get stuck with the greatest number of preps -- the higher up you go, the more you get to choose what you will teach. At least, that was my experience. The norm is probably 2-3 different preps; of course, it depends on the size of your school and the number of courses it offers in any one area.

I know how hard that is. I had as many as three after that in any given quarter, but since we were on the 4x4 block, the prep work was harder in many ways.

I'm glad you were a gifted teacher, but I'm bothered by the fact that you seem to think that the classroom is the same today. It's not. Schools won't even let kids out of study hall or other classes to go anywhere else today (too dangerous)--I don't care if it's to a really good teacher's class or not. I've kept in touch with some of my former students too (shoot, helped some in college, even), and I miss the classroom some days. I'm sure you did a lot of good.

That said, things are very different now. You should talk to my mom. She stayed in it for 35 years, and she just shakes her head at the nastiness in the job these days. She also told me that she wouldn't have stayed in it if she had started when I did. It was like the boiled frog thing: things got harder slowly enough that it didn't bother her until the end.

Principals are under more stress and harder to deal with, parents are much more in your face than ever, students cheat more than every before and expect good grades for copied work, there's no money for anything, and forget summers! You have to constantly take more college classes just to stay certified (and many states, like Ohio, require even private school teachers to be certified). I had to let me certification go after I had my daughter because we didn't have the money for a 3 credit class in English/Lit or the money to transfer my certification to Michigan with a new and different test, more college credits (some wouldn't transfer), and all new paperwork. Things have changed.

I'm sure the whole site is "fair and balanced." They claim the figures come from Illinois State Board of Education, but also note that the figures might include retirement contributions, retirement benefits, and flexible benefits.

Teacher salaries often include such figures as benefit allowance to make them look higher than they really are. Most jobs don't include the benefit allowance as part of the salary.

that listed Illinois average at 56,000 plus -- even though we don't know if those were averages from 2003-4, or earlier. Just eyeballing the charts on champion, I'd say the two are not far off, and then figure out the salary per day and multiply by 250(50 weeks/5 days)to see what it would be for a year, so you can compare other jobs in the community and judge whether teachers are underpaid.

I went back to school to become a teacher later in life and it was the hardest job I ever did. People often divide the pay/day by the 7 hours of school, forgetting that there are several more hours of correcting papers, planning the next days lessons and unpaid extra curricular activities you participate in. The private schools do not pay a living wage to teachers(often 1/2 of public schools) and can recruit for the best students and best athletes(which public schools can't do). They can also expell troule makers and have parents who can and will pay for the 'best' for their children. Public schools obviously have more challenges. There are a few burned out teachers who should quit but for the most part they are a dedicated bunch. Even with all the unfunded mandates, lack of discipline options, low pay and lack of parental involvement, public schools still work. The right doesn't want to eliminate public schools, just take the funding WE pay and put it to pay for their kids to go to private schools. That's the bottom line.

Where the hell are my two summer homes? I want one at Whistler, and one in Tuscany. Hurry up!

if anyone DOES deserve to be overpaid, it would be teachers!!! That being said, none of the teachers I know, and I know plenty of teachers, are overpaid, or underworked!!!!!
Considering all the the crap they have to put up with from bureaucrats, parents, and students they deserve a hell of a lot more respect AND money that they are getting.
Interestingly enough teaching and nursing, the two professions mostly populated by women, are the two most underpaid, overworked, and under-respected professions!!!! I don't think that is just a coincidence!!!

Public schools (secondary) "used" to be able to do this too. When I was in high school (Kansas, the 60's)..we had a separate school called "reform school". The worst of the worst were sent there. What they were taught in those schools, was TRADES.. Most of these "troublemakers" were just kids who hates school, and wanted OUT. The school district was not willing to just dump them on the streets, so they had this other option. I have a feeling that this school turned out the tradesmen who encded up quite happy and well-off in their later years.
The point is though, their D- grades in English and science were "out of the pool" of the other students who took those standardized tests..

It seems now, that we force all kids to compete whether they are capable or not..

My best friend is a special ed teacher. She is currently looking for a second job to support her family. She doesn't make enough and neither does her husband (who does work two jobs).
I think she would like to know where she can relocate.

:thumbsup: Thank you.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

BTW, my district is beginning the process of RIFing and cutting our pay. Our class sizes will be larger and all line items will be reduced. Nothing will be left unscathed. We posted the largest gains on ISTEP (Indiana's test) in quite some time because of the smaller class sizes. This will reverse next year, I am sure.

Yet we are required by NCLB to IMPROVE! Where is the motivation for that?

When teachers do a great job, they are rarely rewarded. How the current system will fare under this kind of pressure remains to be seen. I don't like what I am seeing in education right now, that is for sure.

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