Illegal immigrants are people

Some DUers seem to fail to realize this fact :cry::scared:

but so are income tax evaders, child support evaders, bank robbers, rapists and homicidal maniacs, heck, even George Bush is a human being.

what they all have in common is that we, as a society, need to find the most humane way to deal with their intentional disregard of the law. You obviously agree that illegal immigration is a crime, otherwise you wouldn't have used the word 'illegal'

Frankly, illegal immigration leads to abuse of people. It drives down wages, lowers working conditions, creates a permanent economic and social under-class and enriches a very few at the expense of many.

All of these problems can be dealt with by creating a legitimate immigration plan that meets the needs of the United States without encouraging people to commit crime. As long as there is a permanent, right-less underclass, it is easy for people to complain about immigration, because all the abuse flies under the radar (or do you think that the lives of migrant farm-workers in California are pleasant? Certainly, many of the people living that life find it better than the alternative of their prior residences, but it is certainly not up to the standard of the America I know and love.) Taking away this under-priced and undervalued minority population, our version of India's untouchable class, would force our society to take a good, long look at how we want our economy structured. That, in the long run, is better for everyone.

I mostly agree with you :hi:. Especially with this: "what they all have in common is that we, as a society, need to find the most humane way to deal with their intentional disregard of the law."

In fact, that belief is to me one of the big distinctions between a progressive and a conservative.

However, in the debates in DU there seems to be too much emphasis on the macroeconomical impact of illegal immigration (which I don't deny) and very little on the human component. That's the point I was trying to make.

Some DUers even advocated shooting people trying to cross the border illegally. Is that a "humane way" to deal with them? :eyes:

Even though they're doing something illegal, in many (not all) cases, they're victims of the same socio-economical model that we condemn here at DU. The last thing we should do is to battle other victims...

without the full protection of the law, they bring down the standard for everyone. No one should be shot. that should go without saying. But I do favour serious penalties on those who entice people to break the law by employing them, and often abusing them.

That is how we break the cycle of abuse.

They are undocumented WORKERS here trying to earn enough to feed their families. Stop criminalizing them like you did on the other thread.

You were FOR forcing them to wear ankle bracelets. Get real.

The criminals in the equation are the AMERICAN business owners that violate OSHA, pay less than minimum wage, FUCK THEM OUT OF BENEFITS, don't pay unemployment insurance or workman's comp...etc THEY are the ones who should be charged with violating human rights.

I am so sick of these xenophobic "illegal immigrants" comments.

:hi:

thanks...

crim·i·nal n ne that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime.

It is a crime, under US immigration law, to enter the country without a Visa. this is not a new law, it has been around to roughly a century. One who commits a crime is a criminal, by very definition

I have stated, fairly clearly, that the only punishment for those particular immigrants who break this law should be deportation. I have also stated clearly, in hte post you replied to, that there should be significant criminal penalties for those that employ, and abuse, 'undocumented' workers. They hurt us all.

Frankly, I think the laws are stupid, and that granting work rights to many more people will reduce the abuse and raise wages and standards of living for everyone. and I've said that. It is the only way to eliminate the power of those who would use xenophobia to divide and reduce us all.

How, by the way, do you define 'criminal'? What level of federal law must you break to be a criminal? just wondering.

It is a fucked up social construct and criminalizing undocumentated workers is very Fundie like. It is xenophobic.

declare the borders completely open to anyone at all who wished to enter and work? declare everyone in the world a US citizen? Seriously, how do you solve the problem that there isa dicotomy between US immigration law and the current demands of the US workforce? How do you address the fact that undocumented workers are ripe targets for abuse by rapacious businesses and other employers?

How do you address the fact that by draining the talent from other nations we continue the cycle of instability and poverty that feeds mass migrations to the north?

How do you address the fact that areas like the Los Angeles basin are environmental nightmares based on overpopulation, and still growing quickly?

How do you address the fact that most of the workers who come here are low skilled, low wage workers, one that are then in direct competition with the millions of underemployed or unemployed low wage, low skill US citizens already here? how does increasing that labour pool do anything but reduce emplyoment, create instability and lead to more and more people stuck in a vicious cycle where they are at the mercy of mild economic swings and overly dependant, by neccesity, on meagre government aid?

How do you address the fact that large unregulated immigrant populations have always been ripe targets for organised crime? How do you protect them from that?

When the next wave of low skill, low wage earners crosses the boarder and takes the jobs the current ones already have, for less money and fewer benefits (hey, ask for a raise from even minimum wage and there is liable to be someone willing to do that job for the minimum, and more 'undocumented' workers don't get even that.) where do you draw the line? How do you fund the social and economic support networks for a burgeoning poverty class, when we are unwilling to deal with the one we already have?

How do you house, feed, clothe and treat a million new immigrants a year, when our cities are already crowded and stressed?

Convince me you have a better plan than mine, and I'll listen.

oh, and it was 3/5ths. not 2/3rds.

"I have stated, fairly clearly, that the only punishment for those particular immigrants who break this law should be deportation."

Now I suppose you do realize what deportation means... being separated from your job, friends and immediate family. Just think for a second that you are deported somewhere else. It's something horrible. Entire lives, including lives of Americans (children of the illegal immigrant, for instance), can be destroyed as a result.

If an otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrant is caught, and has substantial ties to the US, she or he should be offered the means to become a legal resident. Or at the very least, be given ample time to make arrangments and prepare the departure.

The most effective way to deal with illegal immigration is to promote a better standard of living in Mexico and around the world. The only thing deportation accomplishes is further victimizing the victim.

I guess.

And the INS was testing a system in which they would allow people to be outside of prison while preparing to be sent home...they could be with their families, sell their property, pack their books up...not what was that again..do you remember? some inhuman system to keep trakc of people about to be deported while they were out of jail.

I can't remember, can you?

I'm talking about people for which, for all practical purposes, the US is home. People who have been working hard for many years, sometimes decades, and have a family which is at least in part American.

Do you think that all illegal immigrants came here yesterday? For those that came very recently, deportation may be the best option, as long as it's done humanely (and not, that tracking system is not a human of treating them).

There has to be a treshold of ties to the US after which the migrant can claim legal status.

you just said that deportation was a horrible punishment, and that anyone who stays here long enough should get residency. So why would anyone bother to show up for their deportation? the odds of getting caught are minimal at best. You think there'll be a lot of response to sending out postcards? "Dear Mr. Smith. Please report for deportation on March 11. Thank you."

And if there was no incentive, why would anyone bother to go the legal route? Why take the chance of being denied, or having it take a while to process your application, when you could already be here, earning credits towards permanent residency?

Do you think the Visa system should be abolished? Should anyone be able to get on an airplane and come to the US, evade capture in the underground for a couple of years and get a free pass, automatically?

Wherer do you draw the line?

"you just said that deportation was a horrible punishment, and that anyone who stays here long enough should get residency. So why would anyone bother to show up for their deportation? the odds of getting caught are minimal at best. You think there'll be a lot of response to sending out postcards? "Dear Mr. Smith. Please report for deportation on March 11. Thank you." "

Yes, I do advocate a human way of dealing with potential deportees. It should be more than a postcard. There should be human contact. And the procedure should make it clear that they'll be given all the help they need in leaving the country in good conditions.

It may not be the most effective but as long as the immigrant hasn't committed a crime, it's really not such a big deal if some of them don't show up.

Needless to say, people who don't show up for deportation if caught before developing substantial ties, would be in a special category and would be subjected to deportation or other punishment even after developing ties.


"And if there was no incentive, why would anyone bother to go the legal route? Why take the chance of being denied, or having it take a while to process your application, when you could already be here, earning credits towards permanent residency? "

Why? What about because crossing the border illegally is extremely risky and expensive? Who on earth would risk his life if she or he could get a green card legally?

"Do you think the Visa system should be abolished? "

Where did I say anything like that?

"Should anyone be able to get on an airplane and come to the US, evade capture in the underground for a couple of years and get a free pass, automatically? "

Yes, if they work hard, don't create trouble, develop a social network in the US, pay taxes, etc, ABSOLUTELY yes (Although I never said "a couple years", I actually talked about decades, you're twisting my argument in order to make your point).

"Wherer do you draw the line?"

I don't know, that would be subject to debate. But it's a relatively minor point.

You're entitled to your point of view and I respect it, but it seems to me that you're uncapable of putting yourself in the shoes of an illegal immigrant even for a second.

of a working class citizen, say a construction worker, who just lost his job to someone willing to work for 10 bucks an hour less. And then in the position of that person who loses his job to someone else willing to work for 2 bucks less than that.

People will go to great lengths to feed their families, this I know, but the fact remains that there are a finite number of jobs and resources in this country. not enough for all the people we have let alone the entire western hemisphere.

Who on earth would risk his life if she or he could get a green card legally because a green card can take a decade or more of waiting? that's a long time. and if we aren't enforcing immigration laws, why would the crossing be dangerous? just walk across at San Diego. There's a nice highway and everything. and have you priced a good immigration lawyer lately?

You implied the end of the visa system by urging the basic elimination of all immigration standards. That would be the end, no?

Anyone who has put down roots is more than welcome to apply for residency from their native land, and their exemplary life in the US should be taken into account in determining that status. But once they are caught breaking the law, that's it. If you think you belong here, leave and ask for permission like everyone else. Otherwise, by you flagrant violation of US law until you get caught, you should disqualify yourself from residency.

I have the greatest empathy for anyone who would take a great risk to better their family's life. But I don't see an incentive in allowing the US labour market to become any more saturated than it already is.

I advocate trying to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants, as long as that doesn't imply shooting people at the border or preventing people with rightful purposes (study, tourism, etc) from entering the country. So I'm all for a fair visa system and its fair enforcement.

The question is what do we do about those that are already here, and those that keep coming illegally (since as you know it's impossible to end illegal immigration completely).

We seem to have two basic points of disagreement:

a) I believe that immigrants for which the US has become their de facto homeland should be legalized. The test should not be years in the US alone, but also consider whether the immigrant has a stable job, whether the immigrant has family in the US (especially children under 18 who can't sponsor her/him for US residency), and whether the immigrant has given something back to the community (in terms of taxes, social work, whatever).

b) You believe that immigrants have a large degree of responsibility in problems like overpopulation or health crisis. I completely disagree with that.

If you decide to keep debating this issue, I would appreciate if you confine the debate to these points of disagreement instead of ridiculing me for positions I don't hold.

it was never my intention to ridicule you. Frankly, now that we've gotten this far down the line, we basically seem to agree on most things, as you point out, with some semantic differences (but without those, what fun would life be?)

1: I agree with you, as you will see above, that long time de facto permanent residents should have their behaviour taken into account when they apply for permanent status (and should probalby be fastracked to citizenship) I just think that application needs to come through formal channels, from outside the US. That's how it's done for everyone else, Leave and apply.

2: My concern on overcrowding and resource depletion is with the entire scope of immigration, and since we cannot reasonably account for illegal immigration, we are forced to scale back legal immigration to account for the inflow as to not tax our infrastructure and resources further. It is my estimate that every three illegal immigrants basically force the removal of one legal slot (that's a guesstimate, I admit) If we were able to prevent illegal immigration, think of the resources we would have to dedicate ot helping legal immigrants, or even seasonal migrants, adjust to life here, learn job skills, get housing, education and health care and learn their rightsa as full lfedged members of US society. But instead we spend many more resources per capita on illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants are far more likely to not have health or auto insurance, driving up the costs for everyone else (that's the impact I mean on local hospitals. if you cannot get care anywhere else, you end up at emergency rooms for things that a GP or clinic can care for at much lower cost.

And yeah, national health care would be nice, but it's not going to happen any time soon, I'm afraid. And reasonable housing, education and wage standards aren't either. we need to fix what we have, and make the immigration system fairer to everyone (among other things, it would make it easier for law enforcement to track the small percentage of currently illegal immigrants who commit violent crime, often against fellow immigrants) Having some sort of a seaonal permit program makes a hell of a lot more sense for everyone.

My proposal: allow any company or employer to sponsor a registered immigrant to come and work for them. We would, of course, have to beef up the penalties (I think they should be criminal, not civil) to anyone who emplys an undocumented worker. Any company or individual that wants to sponsor an undocumented worker would go through a process similar to an H1-B visa, where you must first prove that there is no one in your area willing to take the job (you also have to prove that you are paying a decent wage) once they do that, and it could be done in bulk, they may hire a documented worker. These facilities are inspected for safety and compensation, just as OSHA would for any other job. The hassle of applying over and over again to sponsor a worker would become such a pain that there would be increase competition for the workers already here, inclusing licensed immigrants. Once you are sponsored, you would have to check in, electronically, once a month with the state office. Just as someone on unemployment has to call in weekly. Miss a month and a caseworker goes looking for you at your reported place of emplyoment to remind you. miss two straight months, and we assume you have left. Every worker entering the system would be assigned an ID number, and the employer would have to report that number to the state office. If the worker has violated the terms of his/her stay (missing calls, commiting a crime) then the office knows where to find him/her.)

At any time, a worker with such a visa may exit the US and reenter, as any visa holder would. But they would report their location in the US monthly.

So why do this, if you're a worker? After one year, you are eligible to bring a spouse with you, legally. After five years, you would be eligible to apply for permanent resident status, granted automatically if you have worked for five years, reported in monthly and not been in trouble with the law (except traffic offenses, of course.)

We get a better grasp of what's going on in the labour market and better ability to provide social services to those who need them.

Given the ease of the system (idealised of course) anyone violating the rules is prime for removal and banning from the country. Any illegal immigrant currently in the US at the time of the program is first in line, first come first serve, for the sponsorships. anyone who is stable enough to be a functioning member of society will likely be able ot find a sponsor very quickly.

whaddya think? humane enough :)

Both were supposed to be contingent on better border enforcement that never happened.

People come up here because they know that it can be done. If the border were enforced, including deportation, the flow of people would slow to a trickle. And greedy farm conglomerates would have to pay their workers a decent wage.

And I disagree that deportation is inhuman. These people are fully aware that they are here illegally, yet they take the chance.

I lived as an immigrant in Japan for 5 years. I paid my fees, obeyed the laws, and I had no problem. Every so often a bunch of folks who didn't got deported - that was just the way the law worked, and nobody there made up nonsensical excuses for the scofflaws.

and I still think the death penalty is inhuman and should be abolished (not to compare illegal immigrants to killers in any way).

People come here because they're desperate. The risks of crossing the border are outrageous. I'm all for border enforcement, but it's no easy task with so many miles to protect. Nowadays only the most dangerous desertical places are not so heavily patrolled, so in fact it's a larger risk than ever. And people still keep coming. I'm also for deportation (done in a human way) if caught early on, more than anything else to discourage the continuing flow of immigrants. But once the immigrant developed substantial ties to the land, it's too late.

With all due respect (and we agree on most issues UdoKier) "that's the way the law works" is the lamest possible excuse for a progressive, and you know that.

It's so depressing how many so-called progressives turn into rabid reactionaries whenever this topic comes up.

They are NOT criminals?

I beg to differ but SOME of them are criminals.

Just tonight on Lou Dobbs, it was reported that 27 illegal immigrants committed crimes against children ages 6 through 12, one victim was 18, in Suffolk County NY. These illegals were already convicted and haven't been deported! On the contrary... they were RELEASED! TWENTY SEVEN illegal immigrants in ONE county in NY committed autrocities against CHILDREN and they are back on the streets.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/03/ldt.01.html

Protecting U.S. citizens against undocumented, illegal aliens who have not had a background check for criminal activity is damned good policy. THAT is not being xenophobic... it's common sense.

Being human, I am sorry for their plight. That does not excuse their decision to break our laws. The companies that search them out to exploit them should be punished severely and the illegals should be deported.

For the record, I'm a legal immigrant now citizen and have lived abroad in 2 countries other than my place of birth.

illegal aliens are no more likely to commit violent crime than anyone else. It's a violent country, you may have noticed. We have enough trouble shooting our own children, we don't need to blame 5 million people for the actions of a few.

I wasn't blaming all illegal aliens of these crimes. And how can you state that illegal immigrants are no more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else? They already committed a crime by entering a country illegally. They have already broken the law. Why wouldn't drug runners or violent criminals take advantage of porous borders to escape punishment in their own country? Nothing. What is stopping Mexico from emptying their prisons by encouraging criminals to go north? Nothing. Our borders should be adequately secured. I'm for legal immigration.

The argument that Americans commit atrocities anyway is irrelevant.

Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorists (not referring to insurgents or people fighting American occupation) precisely because shrub had not ordered their borders secured. It is stupid in Iraq and stupid here.

Aren't there more like 9 M illegal aliens in this country? Isn't part of our government's duty to maintain our national sovereignty and secure our borders? Isn't an orderly legal immigration policy necessary to assure that we have the resources to help immigrants? When is enough enough?

Look at what a good job they do at deporting Haitians when they land in FL. Even in the face of a humanitarian crisis in Haiti but we ship them right back. THAT is a crime.

a criminal. That is a fact you cannot change, however you may feel about any kind of immigration.

I think it's high time some honesty made it's way into this discussion in America. A much more open and honest immigration policy would benifit both immigrants AND the American worker but it would HURT big companies and corporartions like the animal slaughter industry because they would no longer be able to under-pay, abuse, intimidate, and treat their workers like disposable tissue. This would hurt the giant industries that use illegal labor in the bottom line two fold, in the benifits and pay of the labor force they have and in what they would be forced to begin paying American labor; real living wages.

As long as illegal workers are coming in and the industries keep hiring them while the U.S. govt. continues to look the other way the American laborer will have their wages driven down, the illegals will suffer and die and the taxpayer will continue to be screwed.

:thumbsup:

I understand that most of them are only trying to find employment and send money home. However, they are in fact “criminals,” in that they are knowingly breaking the law in the process. That they do not intend any harm is a mitigating factor, but does not make the action legal.
It's probably incorrect to call most of them illegal immigrants since they are not intending to stay forever... they are illegally visiting, and illegally working while they are visiting.

I would do the same, in their position, but that does not make it legal either.

I agree with your point that the businesses that hire them knowing they are illegally here are also criminal. Businesses that abuse workers by paying below the legal rate are guilty of another crime. Violation of OSHA rules, etc are guilty of still additional crimes.

And, they lack the mitigating factors of the illegal workers.

Notice how he lumps undocumented workers into this category: "but so are income tax evaders, child support evaders, bank robbers, rapists and homicidal maniacs, heck, even George Bush is a human being."

"Homicidal maniacs, Bush," (Not to mention, that is redundant).

Then goes on to stress the Illegal and criminal component.

the united states becomes the job market for everyone?

why not deal with the pressing issues of poverty and depseration south of the border to eliminate the need for people to leave their families for months, if not years on end to feed them working shitty jobs for low pay?

But I hope you do realize that US foreign policy is partly responsible of the poverty and desperation south of the border.

I also hope you do realize that the US provides less financial help to combat poverty than almost all industrialized nations.

I also hope you do realize that most Mexicans descend from people that were in this part of the earth long before the US ever existed.

I also hope you do realize that illegal immigrants are not responsible for overpopulation and that they're a too small percentage of the population to have a big impact on it.

And finally I hope you realize that some people try to rationalize their xenophobia by attributing very complex problems to a given group of people which is actually not responsible at all if you look at the facts.

as of this morning, I believe that anyone should have access to everything in the US, at any time, for whatever reason. Yahtzee!

And finally I hope you realize that some people try to rationalize their xenophobia by attributing very complex problems to a given group of people which is actually not responsible at all if you look at the facts.

I also now believe that there is no linkage between mass immigration and the lowering of wages. never has been. ask the Irish, and before them the Italians. Never happened.

I also don't believe that there is a linkage between 'undocumented' workers and the crisis in urban health care. Certainly the fact that 1 in 12 patients seen at DC emergency rooms is believed to be an undocumented visitor without access to better health care, tying up the system. nope.

I also don't believe that many undocumented workers are forced to take low paying dangerous jobs because that's all that is avaliable to them. nope. not believing that.

I love how everyone tosses around the 'xenophobia' tag, as if it's not obvious that it is a veiled code for 'rascist' You are the one arguing to keep a system that is as demeaning as possible. You are the one arguing to keep a system that forces people into low-paying, dead end jobs and decreases wages for everone. You are the one arguing that those nations 'south of the border' are not capable of being anything but body-fodder for the US economy.

I am the one arguing for an end to the current system that allows employers to constantly import new 'undocumented' workers to replace the previous ones whenever they start to complain that their jobs are unsafe or too low paying.

but I'm the 'xenophobe' because I think that, like every other nation on the planet, the US should have reasonable immigration standards to avoid the rush to the bottom immigration. Even with the best labour standards, greater than anything we have in place now, and a higher minimum wage, you plan will guarantee a rush to the bottom. Why pay someone more than minimum wage for any job when someone else will take it? that's what you get from overwhelming the labour force. enjoy.

as for your 'they were here first' strawman, yes, on the continent, but not very far north of the Rio Grande, all those of mexican descent north of the Rio Grande were granted US citizenship as the states joined the union. <or soon afterwards> They wouldn't be immigrants, would they?

"I believe that anyone should have access to everything in the US, at any time, for whatever reason. "

Never did I argue for anything like that.

"I also now believe that there is no linkage between mass immigration and the lowering of wages. never has been. ask the Irish, and before them the Italians. Never happened. "

I never said there's no such linkage. Indeed, there is. But the blame is on the corporations that hire them and the government that instead of fighting poverty, encourages it.

"I also don't believe that there is a linkage between 'undocumented' workers and the crisis in urban health care. Certainly the fact that 1 in 12 patients seen at DC emergency rooms is believed to be an undocumented visitor without access to better health care, tying up the system. nope. "

Here you start to stretch the facts. You say that "1 in 12" are "believed" to be illegal immigrants (and only in DC). From your own words, it's clear that illegal immigrants are not a big part in the urban healthcare crisis. What about fighting HMOs instead of illegal immigrants? What about having universal health care that would prevent people from going to emergency rooms as a last resort (which ends up costing more than the preventive health care would have cost). No, the blame is on the illegal immigrants... I should've known better!

"I also don't believe that many undocumented workers are forced to take low paying dangerous jobs because that's all that is avaliable to them. nope. not believing that."

Huh? Now you pose as defending the illegal immigrants from dangerous jobs? "Hey Carlos, look, I will make you a favor of deporting you to a very uncertain situation back in Mexico because I know you didn't have a choice of taking this job. Also, you can get to decide whether to take your American child with you. She can either stay here without her dad, or she can go to Mexico with you and most likely grow uneducated and in poverty. But we treat everyone humanely and are making you a favor"


And I didn't say you specifically were a xenophobe because I don't know enough about you to reach a conclusion either way. However, you and many others at DU display this very typical trait of closeted xenophobia which is blaming a minority group of very complex problems which usually have multiple sources of responsibility - and in the end most of the responsibility lies with the powerful, not with the victims.

But, it could very well be that you're not a xenophobe at all and simply have your facts wrong, or it could even be that I have the facts wrong. So I didn't say that you specifically were a xenophobe, just as I didn't say many other things that you say I did :shrug:

south of the border are GOOD FOR UNITED STATES BUSINESS INTERESTS.

so is the looming "specter" of (gasp!) illegal immigration.

are the victims of long-standing u.s. policy.

They are the victims of their OWN corrupt government in cahoots with our corrupt corporate government.

They need to stand up to the corruption in their own country... as we should hold our government responsible. That's a win-win senario. How does running away from their corrupt country to our corrupt country make them any less victims?

is what it is all about.

i don't know about you, but if i had mouths to feed and the only employment in my town was the local maquiladora that pays 1.50/hour doing piece work for american conglomerates, you can bet i would illegally cross a border to make a better life for my family.

What happened to the great trade deals that was supposed to lift the living standards throughout this whole wonderful world?

multinational conglomerates

Who the hell first granted corporations personhood anyway?

I used to live in FL. :)

i've made border crossings into canada and mexico.

both countries really didn't do much as far as immigration control (actually when i crossed into windsor, ontario, the canandian officer told me to "bring a birth certificate next time" and allowed me entry into canada with only a valid DL - same with mexico).

the only time i ever had a problem was crossing into the US from mexico. i was detained for 2 hours while they ran checks on me and i am a native born u.s. citizen.

anyway, canada rocks. can you guys come invade us or something?

bad for the racism it inspired. :cry:

That has nothing to do with the fact that our country has an interest in enforcing the border laws.

The fact that they are illegal makes them easily exploitable by fat cats who work them in inhuman conditions for only $2 per hour.

Illegal aliens should be treated humanely, but they should be deported. Arguing for open borders is not a progressive, and certainly not a populist position, IMO.

I tend to favor more populist positions, but DU definitely skews somewhat "ivory tower".

I just look at it in terms of what is best for working people. If the borders were enforced, illegals here less than 5 years deported and the rest given amnesty, growers would be forced to pay more competitive wages to their workers. I'm always in favor of wage pressure at the bottom. It's the same reason why I think Min. wage should be raised to about $7/hr, then pegged to inflation - but not the CPI, an inflation index that actually relates to things working people actually buy.

I have nothing against illegals or any other immigrants. My wife is an immigrant. She went through the whole damn green card fees ($1000!) and process - not enforcing the law is unfair to people like her.

So, why not go after the "fatcats" rather than the poor? Or, are "populists" against the poor?

Which means:

1. Controlling the border.

2. Tax PENALTIES for overseas outsourcing, rather than tax BREAKS.

With a dwindling supply of Mexican slaves, they would be forced to pay better wages (including to the Mexicans who are already here, who have amnesty). The increased wages the farmworkers get would help the surrounding communities, etc.


Illegal immigrants DO allow fatcats to pay lower wages. Those who say that Mexico has some claim to California, etc. are also full of it, since Mexico stole its land from the Indians just as the US did. Neither country has a TRULY legit claim to the land.



A better question is, how do open borders help working people in the US, other than lowering wages and bringing in a new group of consumers to buy Pampers at the Wal-Mart? I just can't see any way in which it does.

such as operation Gatekeeper back in the 90's actually increased immigration substantially- and put many people's lives at risk.

How might you ask did clamping down on the border crossings increase immigration?

Well, it certainly wasn't the intended result. The way it happened was that a lot of undocumented workers used to stay in the US only seasonally or temporarily, while their families remained in Mexico or Central America. They would go home from time to time after earning enough money- and the fact is that many of them were happier being in their native countries. They just didn't want to starve.

Once the border crossings became much riskier, more expensive and more difficult- that put an end their ability to go home and come back. So they had to stay in the US permanently, lest they risk being cut off entirely from their only real source of income. Not only that, but they sent for their families, sometimes their extended families. I mean, wouldn't you?

This is all documented, by the way.

Over time, all those new immigrants became a burden on state services. Many were obviously poor- but the poor still need healthcare- and even the more sociopathic of Americans would be fools to withold it- as doing so affects all of our public health. Their kids need education and other services too- lest we breed a generation of complete illiterates and criminals.

So you see, the whole 'get tough on "illegal immigrants" language often leads to bad policy- in more ways than one. It's more than a moral and ethical thing. It's an economic and sociological one.

And it's very complicated. More so than most DU'rs care to imagine.

And most of the time we wouldn't care that much if they weren't "brown" people. I doubt we as a society would care so much if they were white and spoke some language other than Spanish.

But the problem starts with those who employ them. If companies and individuals faced real penalties for hiring them, the job market for illegal aliens would dry up. Companies hire them because they are willing to work very cheaply and usually don't object to the working conditions, however terrible, because they know they will be sent back.

Another part of the problem is the conditions in their home country. Many people cross the border to find work here because they conditions where they live are so terrible. So they pay lots of money to the coyotes to bring them over (sometimes in the back of a semi truck where they are likely to die from the heat).

The lack of compassion even on this board is astonishing sometimes. Illegal immigration is a problem; it is a drain on the system in many ways. But our goverment and corporations are complicit, as are every one of use who likes cheap fruit and vegetables. Most "Americans" will not work for the kind of crap wages big agribusiness offers. Not to mention being dusted with all kinds of toxic poisons in the field.

However, they are only half the problem. Their own corrupt government is as guilty as ours in this matter. That's right, it's their corrupt government and our own corrupt corporate/government that have made life hell on earth for citizens on both sides of the border.

Look at the uprising in Lebanon, and what the Lebanese are accomplishing for themselves in their attempt to overthrow a corrupt government... how can one not admire them? I point this out because IMO... the Lebanese have a fair shot at shaping the kind of government they want for themselves.

Venezuela is another good example of people shaping government to serve them and overcoming great obstacles (our government for one) to do so. I admire these people and have great regard for Chavez.

Now contrast that with citizens of Mexico who have a choice between fighting the great corruption by their government, at all costs; OR running north.

I support severe fines, and criminal charges against owners of corporations or businesses who abuse and exploit illegal immigrants. Then we should deport anyone who has entered this country illegally. We're a country of laws. IMO, laws that protect our borders from illegal entry must be enforced.

Citizens of Mexico should fight to achieve a government that serves them. It's no wonder their government encourages illegal entry into the US. They will continue their corruption with our government's help. And they encourage any Mexican citizen that doesn't like their lot in life to take the easy way north. How convenient for these criminals. What a brilliant way of avoiding an uprising.

I predict that illegal immigration will be a key issue in the 2006 election. It's the only issue that I can think of that transcends political affiliation and will hurt candidates that support open borders or amnesty.

I don't believe that these are jobs Americans will not perform. These sleazy corporations will have to pay American wages/benefits and that's how it should be. As far as toxins and poisons... no one should be subjected to those anyway whether you in this country legally or illegally. If these toxins are bad for the workers, they are bad for the consumers. Americans will pay more for higher quality non-toxic fruit and veges. Do you think Americans would choose toxic fruit for their kids because it's cheaper? These poisons are killing our environment, birds, wildlife and who knows what they do to us.

I really think if employers of illegals were jailed for a while, had all of their personal and business assets seized, their companies HEAVILY fined, this problem could be largely solved.

The comic book put out by Vincente Fox's government went way over the line. The fact that I didn't hear a peep out of Bush or Condi about it shows where they stand. Bush is busy grinding his heels into the necks of American workers while he caters to the ever greedy employers who fire American citizens and then pay illegals under the table.


I would love to see Democrats and Republicans work together on solving this issue. Bush is cutting down on border patrol funding and staffing when he should be increasing both. I think it is impeachable. It is outrageous.

The shrub is corporate owned. No question on whose side he's on and it's not the poor people of Mexico or American Citizens.

It serves U.S. corporate interests to exploit these people while lining fox's pocketbook.

What happened to trade agreements requiring developing countries to raise the standard of living for their people?

I agree with you Barb. It is outrageous. Outrageous that Americans ignore the root cause and won't vote every bastard in washington out of office. Outrageous that we still deal with an animal like fox.

are a total sick joke. IMHO, they should be rescinded. I have read in various places they are actually costing this country more (in unemployment, food kitchens, etc.) than they are benefitting the country. They seem to mainly benefit the business owners and it never fully filters down. Certain items can be purchased more cheaply by the average consumer, but at the cost of unemployment, bankruptcy, etc., of many American citizens.

We are all "illegal immigrants". Ask the Indians.

When thirty million people cross the borders of a country illegally, it's usually called an invasion. Members of the military and the accompanying carpetbaggers who've invaded Iraq and Afghanistan are human, too.

But they've broken the law. And undocumented workers continue to break the law, since they frequently have to adopt aliases based on entirely fraudulent documents, or assume somebody else's identity for employment purposes. It's not as though they have no choice; but confronted with the choices of or , they choice law-breaking.

Denying their status because they've decided to go with better lifestyle, and denying it to underzealous taxpayers or overzealous accountants (i.e., tax evaders and embezzlers) who decided to be less than law-abiding in order to improve their living conditions misses an important point of principle. We pour our hate out on the filthy capitalists ... but they are also people.

I feel really sorry for the kids who are stripped of a parent who immigrated illegally, and who is deported. Do most people feel as sorry for the kids of a parent who committed tax fraud or embezzled, and is sent to jail for a few years, as they do for the kids of illegal immigrants that are deported? In both cases the kids suffer because laws that the parent(s) knowingly broke are being enforced. I also feel sorry for kids brought here when they were 12 who have largely forgotten Spanish or Chinese and who are sent home, as well as for the white-bread nerdy accountant sent to a prison to serve time with murderers. Both are going to have a severe culture shock. But race and class enter into the picture, so instead of justice and speak clearly, we get ... pity? Double-standards? I believe in mercy, but only after having figured out what constitutes justice.

If someone wants to argue that breaking the law for financial reward at one income level is ok, but not at another income level, we can have that particular conversation. But we should be clear about what the discussion really is. It's not whether or not they're people, or whether or not they broke the law. It's about what the punishment should be, and whether we should have punishment on a sliding scale, dependent on ethnicity and income.

countries and apply LEGALLY to come to this country.

Employers of illegals should be fined bigtime and have their personal and business assets seized.

immigration before we fix the processes for illegal immigration.

Why, oh why, do hard-working people who immigrate to the U.S. legally have to endure years of processing by inept and underfunded agencies such as USCIS (f/k/a INS) while at the same time keep track with the increasing filing fees?

Case in point:
I came to the U.S. in 1987, on an E-1 visa, with my dad as the principal alien (i.e., the person who was to be employed in the U.S.). Soon afterwards, the company's attorneys began filing for the green card process which includes several steps, none more time-consuming than the Labor Certification step (which does not involve immigration, but the Dept. of Labor). At this step, the company has to show that it has been unable to find U.S. workers (or other people lawfully authorized to work in the U.S.) to fill the position, that my dad has the right education/experience and that the salary is comparable to average salaries in the area. This process was very long and arduous (it has changed very recently with PERM regulations).

Well, lo and behold, in part due to the attorney's basic knowledge of immigration laws, I turned 21 while the green card case for my family was processing. Now, in immigration law, when a child turns 21, that child cannot be considered part of the family anymore. That child has to fend for herself. Here I was, without any family in my home country, without ties there, having to face the prospect of having to return there and be separated from my parents and younger sister.

So, my status was changed into a student in F-1 status. Because I was a F-1 student, I had to pay out-of-state tuition at my public university, coupled with the higher fees that come with it. Once my parents acquired a green card, they filed an immigrant relative petition (I-130) on my behalf, which put me in a very low priority category. I remember checking my status with the Visa Bulletin and I calculated it would take 6-7 years before I'd get a green card. That meant having to be a student for 6-7 years...

After 5 years with a green card, my dad became a naturalized U.S. citizen so that I could be bumped up in categories (children of U.S. citizens above 21 are bumped up in priority), but it would still be 3-4 years of waits (which often go backwards).

Throughout this time, I did not do 1 illegal thing; I did not work illegally, I paid taxes when I had to, etc., I paid enormous fees for school, etc. It would have certainly been easier to "go underground" and live illegally, but I knew the repercussions that route would have on my future.

In 1998, I had come to the end of my perpetual studies and I was facing the prospect of having to go abroad and bite the bullet. Thankfully, I met my now-husband (a U.S. citizen) and I was able to obtain a green card through the marriage.

I vowed to dedicate myself to LEGAL immigration and it has been my job ever since.

Even people who come here legally want to make a better life for themselves and not all of them are highly educated or wealthy people, nor white europeans. There are legal immigrants who are from Latin American countries, China, Russia, Ethiopia (personal friends), etc.

The point is that coming to this country legally is much more difficult than coming illegally. People will always try to find an easy way in and there will always be people who take advantage of that (such as employers willingly employing illegal immigrants). But we need to first cater to the needs of those who do things according to the rules, who pay dearly (emotionally and financially) for the privilege and who prefer living with a clear conscience.

Do I believe there should be a system for keeping track of illegal immigrants to ensure their rights are preserved and/or upheld? Absolutely.

Do I believe we should just let everyone who wants to come in in? Absolutely not.

Do I believe that people who enter without a visa commit a crime? Absolutely. And these people, whatever their reasons for entering illegally, should be fully aware of the consequences for their actions, just like people who run red lights should know what could happen, just like people who slap people in the face and so on.

How many employers of undocumented workers have spent hard time in prison for their crimes?

Many DUers fail to understand the plight of these people that in many cases risk their lives in order to escape misery and give their families a halfway decent life.

I would expect progressives to see all the faces of a problem, and sympathize with the less favored of us, even when a corrupt and wrecked system forced them to break the law.

It's interesting how several people wrongly believe that I support open borders. That's because they see illegal immigration as a black/white, yes/no problem, instead of appreciating its overwhelming complexity.

I also continue to believe that some DUers have some kind of closeted xenophobia. I'm not saying that all who disagree with me on this point are xenophobes, because in many cases I can see their arguments even though I don't agree with them. But in other cases, especially when someone attributes half of the problems in the country to illegal immigration, I suspect that there's something else going on.

I may even agree with many of you on concrete policy since I do not support an open border policy (In fact I would support it in an ideal world but I don't think it's even remotely a practical possibility). But I'm still shocked at the lack of human empathy displayed by some people who call themselves progressives.

With rising unemployment, lack of health care, homeless people, bankruptcies and forclosures at a high, outsourcing, cuts to social services across the board while illegal immigrants come across open borders... do you not feel the pain of American workers and citizens? Without the necessary funding to care for American citizens... where do you come up with the money to take care of illegals?

At this rate, it won't be long before Americans start running for the southern border to give their families a halfway decent life. Think they'll be welcome with open arms?

What you fail to understand is that NO ONE forces another person to break the law. It's just convenient to run rather than commit oneself to force change in their own country. If Mexicans forced a change of their government (a la Chavez), I doubt this exploitation by American corporations in Mexico would continue. We have a situation, both in Mexico and the US, where neither government/corporation is held responsible for their criminal actions.

If there is a travesty in all this... it's that we are turning away Haitians who face an almost certain humanitarian crisis.

Quite a bit of it comes from the undocumented. Most educational, health & social services funding comes from State & Local taxes. Undocumented workers generally don't own property, but renters do pay property tax. What, the landlords don't just suck up any tax increases? No. And everybody pays sales tax (in states that have it).

Texas has no Income Tax. Hey, let's start one to pay for all that underfunded stuff! Since only legal residents would be taxed, the undocumented would truly be "lucky duckies." The Legislature is in session--surely one of the fine Conservatives will suggest this. (Ha!)

As far as correcting things in Mexico--have you ever read about the 1910 revolution? It turned into a bloody mess of a Civil War, with one party on top. Fox is the first President of another party elected since then; there are many years of abuse to correct. (By the way, a huge number of Mexicans fled North to escape the carnage; violent revolution in Mexico would not be good for the USA.)

How about throwing employers of the undocumented into prison for some hard time? How often does that occur?

The USA is not a gated community.

As for the USA not being a gated community. Every country has an obligation to secure it borders to protect it's sovereignty. Are you suggesting the USA is one big happy commune?

Everywhere. Even those "aliens" who do the work white Americans won't do, pay taxes, try to get a decent living in the country that exploits they're own, educate their kids, risk their lives, and are the "wretched of the earth" as Franz Fanon described them.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The poor need not apply.

legally.

Gosh, I wonder who gets on the quota.

gets on the quota

have been deliberately pushed down by means of massive illegal immigration? You know, people in jobs like construction and meatpacking that used to pay well but don't anymore since the bosses decided to break the unions and import cheap labor?

Should progressives support them?

And let them organize all the workers!

"Progressive" enough for you?

textile mills, factories of all kinds across the country, etc. American citizens have been losing jobs, going bankrupt... and the greedy employers hiring the illegals grow richer and richer.

Go after the bosses.

Why blame the victims?

But I wouldn't use the word "victim" for an illegal any more than I would use that word for a drunken driver. They know they are violating our immigration laws when they enter this country. They do it anyway.

And I wholeheartedly agree. As a young kid, I spent time on farms in the Central Valley of California (where my father was working on organizing laborers)
Not only are undocumented immigrants human beings, but they are much stronger human beings than the bigots that knock them and have a greater more keen sense of survival.

As one who has worked in laor, my entire professional life, and seen numerous migrant work related death cases, I wholeheartedly thank you for reminding others.

It's vomitous that this even need be stated on an allegedly progressive site.

while I agree it is less jarring than "illegal immigrants", it isn't often very accurate. I've come to know a lot of immigrants who did not go through INS. All of them have documents, but they are forged in Mexico & cost about $50-100 per paper. Many of these people are working for employers who are paying the prevailing wage (low restaurant wages, some factory wages)and while they may suspect they are hiring persons who are not legally allowed to work in the US, they don't care to, and may not have means to, find out if the paperwork is false.

Not all of the people I know came to "feed their families". For one young man I know, he was sent by his family to help pay for his sister's 16th birthday party, which cost several thousand dollars. Then he was to return. He isn't returning, as he now as a child here with a natural born citizen-- as someone pointed out earlier, a US family. Many of the others I know left their children behind and have been here for years, sometimes with new children here too. Children suffer on both sides of the border.

I think one of the saddest things is how these 'falsely documented' workers fear discovery and never report when they are the victims of crimes. I know of workplace attacks and harassment, robberies, beatings, and one man raped while being racially slurred, who never report these things. I live not far from where this man was raped & I understand his fear in filing the report (being discovered as well as humiliated)-- but it bothers me to know every day that there are a group of rapists who have found a way to lessen the likelihood of getting caught.

Ok, I rambled-- but, I think the problem is far too complex to be addressed by enforcement or lax behavior. The best idea I've heard so far is the international union.

peace

They pick the fruits that I eat in my morning cereal.

They take care of the children that need taking care of.

They work on the cars that people bring into the repair shops.

The least we can do is show them a MODICUM of respect.

We would be better off if we opened the borders and let more join us in this wonderful country.

Some of them have skills that employers here desperately need. So many Mexicans need jobs. Let's not deny them the opportunity. It would be so Republican to do that.