Iraqi rebels/insurgents is a complex issue, not a black-white bush-think.

Some people seem to believe all the Iraqi rebels are "evil-doers" and/or "terrorists".

Iraqis attacking our troops are not "terrorists", they are legally entitled under the GCs and the rules of war to attack uniformed invaders & occupiers.

Iraqi civilians seen as "collaborators" are also being targetted in Iraq. This is not legal, but it is something that happens in every war since time began; Americans killed Americans collaborating with the British, and Americans and French killed French who collaborated with the Germans.

MOST of the "insurgents" in Iraq are Iraqis, NOT "foreign terrorists".

And what would you NOT do to defend your country if it was invaded & occupied, if the invaders killed or wounded 100,000s of your country's citizens, busted into your home, terrorized your children, dragged away your husband/brother(s)/dad/son(s)?

A few articles for thought;

More Iraqi civilians killed by US forces than by insurgents, data shows

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9753303.htm

US Faces Complex Insurgency in Iraq

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/world/9833731.htm

Insurgents Are Mostly Iraqis, US Military Says

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0928-21.htm

Iraq insurgency larger than thought

American military officials told The Associated Press the guerrillas can call on loyalists to boost their forces to as high as 20,000 and have enough popular support among nationalist Iraqis angered by the presence of U.S. troops that they cannot be militarily defeated.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-07-08-insurgency-count_x.htm

Insurgents in Iraq show signs of acting as a network

Like other experts, Mr. Pollack stresses the existence of a popular base of support that is sustaining Iraqi insurgents.

Far from limited to a small group of "dead-enders" and Saddam "thugs" as Pentagon officials claim, the armed opposition to the US occupation in Iraq has reached the point where some experts say it threatens to become a full-fledged nationalist insurgency.

Perhaps most important, insurgents are now motivated primarily by nationalism and Islam, rather than by loyalty to Saddam Hussein...

http://csmonitor.com/2004/0428/p03s01-usmi.html

Ominous sign of the insurgency’s increasing efficacy

http://defense.iwpnewsstand.com/

Direct link;
http://www.d-n-i.net/grossman/countering_the_insurgency.htm

The insurgency in Iraq continues to baffle the US military and intelligence communities

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0217terror-split17.html

Iraq insurgency has grown "in size and complexity over the past year" and is now mounting an average of 60 attacks per day, up from 25 last year.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0217terror-split17.html

"In the U.S. command, there is increasing skepticism that the insurgency can be defeated through military might alone."

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2005/02/

Revenge killings of members of Saddam's former regime rise

Shiite Muslim assassins are killing former members of Saddam Hussein's mostly Sunni Muslim regime with impunity in a wave of violence that, combined with the ongoing Sunni insurgency, threatens to escalate into civil war.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/10994419.htm

The Eroding US Position on Iraq

http://www.csis.org/features/iraq_fallujah.pdf

And when foreign invaders & occupiers invade YOUR country and do this;

US Military Admits It Hit Wrong Target; Iraqis Die In Errant Bombing By US

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59325-2005Jan8.html

General who led US Marines in Iraq says “It’s fun to shoot some people”

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/02/04/marine_general_says_its_fun_to_shoot_some_in_combat/

Wedding party massacre

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html

US bulldozes Iraqi farmers crops

http://tribalmessenger.org/headlines/10-12-03-US-soldiers-bulldoze-Iraq-farms.htm

And there's Abu Ghraib...aside from the torture and abuse and murder, MOST (70%-90%)prisoners were innocent of any wrong-doing & had been "arrested by mistake".

Red Cross Says Most Iraqi Prisoners Innocent

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/003886.php

Civilian death toll in Iraq exceeds 100,000

Most killed by US & "coalition" forces

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596

Then there's the US slaughtering both past and on-going in Fallujah, Ramadi, Mosul, Baghdad, Basra.

What would you do if this was done to YOUR country?

Poll: Only 2% of Iraqis View the US as Liberators, 97% as Occupiers

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=7752&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

As one American so aptly put it;

The American Revolution was won by a bunch of rebels. These rebels were out-gunned. But they won. They fought the greatest power in the world. But they won. They were willing to die for their country. So they won. Their fight slowly drained the British Treasure. So they won. English sons died. And the American Insurgency won. It is our history.

All needless senseless deaths are tragic; ours and theirs. And to be avoided whenever possible, which is why war SHOULD be a LAST RESORT, contrary to bush's belief in wars of choice.

But to think we're "The Good Guys" and they are "The Bad Guys" is indulging in the mindless fantasy of a child, not the reasoned thinking of adults.

but you know what they say about repetition :cry:

peace

There are always bad people; the US military itself has rapists and murderers and wife-beaters and thieves and terrorists, and always has. I've been unfortunate enough to meet up with several in the thief and wife-beater and murderer catagories, and rape has for years been a big problem in the forces. People are people.

But the majority of Iraq's insurgents -and even the US Military admits this- are just very pissed off NATIONALISTS who want US troops the hell out of their country, and/or Iraqis who have lost their loved ones and simply hate us all for what we've done. For these 2 categories of insurgents, I don't blame them at all; how could I? I'd be the same way if it happened to me, my loved ones, and my country.

Americans don't seem to understand or realize this, but the vast majority of Iraqis DID NOT WANT the US to invade them; the majority of Iraqis want the US to leave, even if that meant a civil war.

Maybe America needs to be invaded & occupied by a foreign military.

Maybe a million dead Americans (per capita equivalent to the number of Iraqis we've killed) will wake the rest up. Maybe foreign troops that don't speak English busting down their front doors and dragging away all the males in the family after scaring the crap out of everyone, stealing all their valuables, trashing their homes, leaving women and kids with no food, no money, and too frightened to go out of their house; maybe being "arrested by mistake" and raped with broomsticks and/or by foreign troops, "water-boarded", told your family will be raped and/or murdered, and themselves abused & tortured and even murdered; maybe their wives or sisters or daughters being kidnapped by the foreign troops; maybe being treated like dirt and humiliated and their farms and homes and cities bombed and bulldozed to the ground...maybe being treated EXACTLY as Iraqis have been and are being treated by us would make Americans realize just why they and the world hate what we've done & are doing.

And if more Americans knew a damned thing about their own history, they'd not be so quick to label people fighting a nationalist insurgency against foreign occupiers as "terrorists".

Maybe.

thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNETs :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

invented the "internetS". :D

i stand corrected :hi:

peace

Accuracy, ya know. :D

LOL!

American exceptionalism seems to preclude the ability to learn from the experience of others. :cry: Raining death and destruction down on the heads of innocent people is an horrific offence against humanity. There is hell to pay...

It REALLY needs to come to an abrupt halt. FULL STOP. That would work for us both, eh Lynn? :loveya:

the first state to pass a resolution opposing the invasion. They didn't want other people to experience what they had, and at our own hands.

God Bless New Yorkers.

:loveya:

That's an impressive collection of links. The thing is, that while I am absolutely devastated by the number of wounded and killed US soldiers in Iraq, I don't know why people in this country can't see that we would react the same way if we were ever occupied. I was watching some dude on TV say that the main problem sociopaths have is that they lack empathy for others. I think a lot of people who are not sociopaths lack empathy, too, maybe to a lesser degree. It simply baffles me.

BTW, you do great work here, Lynn. I don't know where to post the love, but your posts are always so informative and thoughtful. :yourock:

My husband is a US army officer and back from Iraq a few months ago (he DESPISES bush, by the way) and my hubby's nephew is currently Iraqmired.

I would kill to protect my husband from anyone who tried to hurt or kill him. He's a damned fine person and I love him to bits.

But I also realize that we INVADED a nation that hadn't been doing a damned thing to anyone. My God I still get shocked whenever I type or say that; America INVADED. We don't DO that! HITLER did that! But we did that.

And if I were an Iraqi, I'd fight the invaders. If my country were invaded & occupied by a foreign military, I would fight them with whatever I could; sticks of dynomite, RPGs, IEDs...lobbing rocks, if that's all I could get hold of. Biting their shins, if I couldn't get any rocks. *snap* :D

And if my family were killed or maimed or wrongfully jailed & tortured and raped???!! WATCH OUT. Just the thought of that ever happening to mine, and my blood boils. I'd not only go after every occupier I could find, I'd go after every American who even THOUGHT about collaborating with the bastards!

Wouldn't any patriotic American?

So for many military families, we're in total despair over this situation, because we can see and understand both sides; both have good people and both have bad people...but America is in the wrong here in the first place, not Iraq.

Very complex situation with very complex emotions.

:(

has never attacked the U.S.....Saddam may have wanted to...but didn't. The point is that if Bush talks like they are to blame for 9/11 or anything else against us, after a while it becomes true in people's minds.

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Amerikan like things simple. Good guys. Bad guys. Sports is where it's at. Winners and losers. Cheer for the home team. Maybe this is why so many Amerikans are rooting for the Bush Junta team?

And just how much we've lost and will lose, we don't have a final reckoning of yet.

That is a brilliant pic of Hitler the playing the "good Christian"

bush does. At least Hitler attended church services to make his "I'm a good christian" bullshit more plausable than bush's.