Parents: 4th-Grade Girl To Become Boy

METHUEN, Mass. -- A fourth-grader who was attending a Massachusetts elementary school as a girl before February vacation has returned to school as a boy.


The parents of the 9-year-old child said the youngster was born with the body of a girl, but the brain of a boy.

They have asked that he be referred to and treated as a boy by teachers and other students, and school officials are accommodating the request. The parents have even changed the child's name.

The child's mother told The Eagle-Tribune that the family made the decision after consulting with medical professionals. She said the child is still biologically a girl.


http://www.wsbtv.com/family/4254137/detail.html

I'm willing to address this but only if you're serious.

edit: A separate thread would be ideal.

of the women's room for looking like a male and is afraid of using the men's room for fear of gang rape, let me just point out for the record that your comment makes me a little irritated.

(and yes, my transgendered butch partner was escorted out of the women's restroom by security at carnegie hall)

I have read in a long time.

I teach 4th graders. This is going to be tough to explain to the child's classmates.

And she (er he?) knows by now? I remember my cousin used to be the biggest tomboy but now she's married (to a guy) and all that. And I wonder what bathroom she'll use too. :shrug:

I was a major tomboy to the point people would sometimes mistake me for a boy. I only liked "boy" toys and played baseball, etc, and hated dolls and frilly things. I am hetero and on the feminine side now that I'm grown up. IMO, 9 years old is waaaay to young to make decisions like this.

Well, at least it isn't a boy who is returning to school as a girl. That would invite a lot more taunting.

And what do they mean, "the brain of a boy"? I'm leaving that one alone, it's too tempting to begin insulting the poor child ;)

he was around 4.

and the school are both acting in a supportive and reasonable way, as I read the (very short) article.

There was recently a case in Canada where a man who was raised as a girl by his fucked up parents killed himself.

There was a medical screw up, and at the advice of some quack "doctor" they decided to raise him as a girl and slice off the rest of his "equipment"

The parents should be sterilized for the good of humanity and any other kids they have should be taken too.

seem supportive and aren't going to go changing any body parts though are they? So I think this is a lil different.

It isn't different,
it is fucked up parents screwing with an already screwed up kid.

Supportive and Insane are not the same thing,

When I was 9, I wanted to get "Hotwheels" tattooed on my cheek.

This is not the case of a child who was TOLD she was a boy by the parents. The case you cite is something very different.

It's not unusual for transgendered individuals to start pushing at about this age to dress as the gender they feel they are.

If this child later decides to dress as a girl again there's no problem.

These parents are in a tough spot and they are being pretty courageous and supportive.

I sure wish I knew that, hey I feel like I am a girl, I want to use the girls locker room, don't mind the video equipment.

If this is real, it is a mental illness and should be treated accordingly.

?

...

Why prescribe anti psychotic meds for someone who's not psychotic?

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I have no problem with appropriate medications for appropriate treatment.

Gender dysphoria is not a psychosis.

If you want to talk mental illness and medication at least try to get it right.

not just violent behaviour

How odd that you think you are qualified to medically diagnose and treat someone you've never met, but a physician is not able to do the same for his or her actual patient.

You might look into some medication regarding delusions yourself.

And yes it can and does start that young.

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Even Moral support.

if a grown man or woman wants to play dress-up, sleep with other men or women or animals, I don't really care it has absolutely no impact on my life. Get married, buy a house, adopt kids, whatever. Their private lives impact me just as much as mine impacts them.

But this is a kid, the purpose of parents is to keep us from doing all the stupid things that seem like a good idea to a 9 yearold.

Would my parents have been great liberals if after two years of begging them to get me a hotwheels tattoo on my face they look me to a seedy tattoo parlor in long beach?

I am sure there is someone on this thread who would defend them if they had done that, but I don't think it would have been in my best interest to go out into the world with a big red hotwheels logo on my face.

condition on which you know nothing and passing judgement beyond what is reasonable. YOu yourself said you are a parent. Which one of your children would you care to see suffer?

Your remedy rather than to make the adjustment and allow the child to discover what is so would be to MEDICATE the child.

That's HARDLY a remedy.

These parents are not having their child undergo a sex change or anything even NEAR the permanence of a HOT WHEELS tatoo. They are allowing this child who insists she is a boy to be a boy.

Since you have ZERO clue about it, rather than fill this thread up with ridiculous comments, why not spend a bit of time reading up on the subject. A little education isn't near as frightening as it may seem.

they try to wait until the child enters puberty, then through counseling, dream interpretation, etc the psychologist finds out how the child's psyche is developing and treatment goes from where the child is and in what direction tendencies develop......unless, of course, there are already behavior issues which may endanger the child.

Educate yourself. Calling this rather common occurrence "mental illness" is as sick a comment as I can imagine. If you are unwilling to educate yourself, seek treatment.

It certainly is NOT pyschotic. Calling it pyschotic is extremely ignorant and judgemental.

( I don't have the numbers but suspect both are under 10%. You are right, though -- anyone who assumes that the less common gender identifications are attributable to psychosis is probably projecting.

So you are asserting that individuals who are transsexual are mentally ill?

he does not believe actual medical professional can.

so, I beg to differ with you.

I was a tomboy because boys got to do "funner" things, dress in jeans and spit. I rode horses in barrel racing and drove go-carts - so damn much more fun than braiding damn Barbie's hair.

Guess what? On the spectrum of heterosexual-bisexual-homosexual, which I believe we all dot from some point to another, I'm blatantly heterosexual. I think the male body is gorgeous - I love hairy hands and bushy eyebrows and the dip between the stomach and the groin. I think women are a dime-a-dozen and not so attractive. (yeah, I tend to like straight lines vs. curves). My point?

You're mistaken - the reason SOME changes occur at this age is that it's pre-pubescent, not transgendered (it could be that, but it's mostly just progesterone kicking in to nest for the estrogen).

I think the parents are nuts. They should withhold support until their child makes up his/her/it's own mind. For now, let the hormones get thrhough popping out the ears. Geez.

First off, no one ever said this child is or isn't homosexual.

Secondly, by the time parents or a physician are ready to support a cross gender route for a kid they're not simply tomboys - they have a well established sense of being the other gender and are likely alreay suffering over it.

This isn't an easy route for almost any parent to take, and the case has to be pretty fucking strong before they or a physician will proceed on it.

You keep saying the child had no say in it but you are extraordinarily likely to be wrong about that.

My guess is no.

At eight - and my son isn't that old yet - a child is still a child. Gender is still a whisper.

You keep thinking the child DOES have a say in it, and he/she may - but he/she may also be experiencing pre-pubesence with an over abundance of progesterone.

And, as much as you want to blather, a child at 8 IS a child, NOT an adult with some clear-thinking rationale - or at least some wisened rationale.

I have a 7 year old and 9 year old daughter.

They are well aware of gender. They are well aware of identity. And they make decisions, as do other children in their age range.

When you get your medical degree you can sput off about how physiciology and psychology work, but frankly the science says you're wrong, and I'm more inclined to go with evidence based science than a random poster.

A child is NOT an adult. But children are sometimes placed in a position that require mature decisions - for example, those regarding medical treatments like chemotheraphy. With supportive parents and appropriate professional assistance they can make decisions, even challenging ones.

I agree, children make decisions, but I doubt they make "sexual" decisions.

I don't agree with switching a child until the child is adult enough to make that decision. And, I'm sorry, 7, 8 or 9 isn't old enough.

And, I DEFINITELY don't agree with "professional help" in making gender assignments at that age. Bless their hearts, some little kids need psychiatric help at that age and younger, but it should be about mental health, not gender reassignment.

I love how free you are with deciding the merits of a case you know virtually nothing about, while the school, the physician and the parents are intimately familiar with the situation.

It's NOT A GENDER REASSIGNMENT, for christ's sake.

Fortunately not everyone thinks their 9 year olds are infants, and they can work with them to come to a course of action. God forbid your 9 year old had cancer and you had to work with him to think about his options.

And while you clearly haven't thought it through, this kid's mental health is very much at stake. But apparently you'd rather risk her committing suicide at 12 than wear pants and call herself James.

Like you just did.

SHE'S A CHILD.

I didn't say she was an infant.

Children have more reasoning capabilities than you do! They can reason that it's wrong to throw their world in flux and become a pariah for the sake of something their doctor said when they're going through hormonal changes. If I recall, the story said the doctor was the catalyst.

Now... I love how you are free with deciding a case you know nothing about, either. I just think we should let kids be kids. Nine is a kid - not an infant, but a kid.

I should think you should meet my 5-year-old who is already bound and determined to become an architect so he can design buildings that airplanes won't penetrate - who is half Arabic and all American - who's goodness is better than your judgment.

BTW, that girl... she can still wear pants. :eyes: You're right, her mental health is at stake. I subscribe to the belief that she was born female - let her get through fucking puberty first. The parents are already supportive, let them wait until the fucking hormones do their job, for Christ's sake! Nothing may change or something may - but it's just too young.

Okay - you didn't say infant. You said BABY. I was off by a few months.

"Children have more reasoning capabilities than you do! They can reason that it's wrong to throw their world in flux and become a pariah for the sake of something their doctor said when they're going through hormonal changes. If I recall, the story said the doctor was the catalyst."

They can reason that? But you said they can't make these decisions - they're babies. So maybe they're wrong about this.

And jesus, lady, do you think the doctor never heard of hormones?

WHY oh WHY do you ASSUME this was the doctor's idea? Did you not see the other post about how this child has identified as a boy since age 2? That this is not something that cropped up because of hormonal change?

I'm sorry you subscribe to the infantilization of children, but sometimes letting a kid be a kid means recognizing what they're dealing with AS they're dealing with it.

Any decent physician knows better than to diagnose someone they've never examined - too bad those without medical training don't know it as well.

Of course, I'm Southern (oh, yeah, blame me and whip me now), but in my colloquialism, "baby" means "young."

If the child was 14 or 15, I'd have a different feeling, believe me.

You're not "hearing" what I'm writing. It's the age, not the agenda.

You're not unusual in your desire to infantilize kids.

But the fact is even 9 year olds have serious issues to deal with. Some are diabetic. Some have leukemia. Some are racial minorities. Some are atheists in funamentalist schools. Some have parents divorcing. Some are pressured to say the pledge of allegience.

The fact is some kids have very real and very serious issues to deal with, and for SOME kids gender dysphoria is one of those issues. And in some exceptional cases - including this by the sound of it - it's not something to be ignored or denied.

to adulthood, either.

I'm divorced.

I'm a single mother.

I could loose my job Monday (and might because I stood up for myself today.)

I talked to my kid about this - tonight. We discussed our moving from Tennessee to a blue state where it's better for single Mommies, but, at times, worse for him (no Grandma, but daycare).

There's no infanitilizing my son. He spoke perfect English at 3.

I just know the difference between babies and kids and adults. My kid is a kid with all kinds of kid problems. But, he's still not an adult.

It's so absolutely nutty of you to think this was SPRUNG on her rather than part of a resolution of her own problems.

But given how free you are with dictating about people you don't know with conditions yyou don't know anything about, it probably makes sense.

You think it's OK for a bit of a nip to be "changed."

All I'm asking is that the nip grow into a bud and you're calling me all-but-evil for it!

Geez!

Talk about dictating!

They're not changing her. They're acjnowledging who she IS.

Again, this is a lifelong issue for this kid.

It's like you're saying "Don't teach the diabetic kid about insulin - let him be a child and not have to worry about that."

This IS the reality of this child's life. There's evidence based data on it. There's real life experience.

And then - sadly here on DU - there are some people just making shit up.

it's so much easier to fight with someone who is trying to defend trans people on an ethical basis rather than on a personal one. The poster can tell you that you are ethically wrong, but she can't tell someone who actually is a transpersons significant other that she is wrong.

of a diabetic kid they're wrong for teaching him how to use his insulin.

And most bizarre of all the kid in question is doing something so transitory and - if so desired - easily reversed.

Heck, my 7 year old decided she wanted to go by her middle name. She kept asking kids and teachers at school, and us at home of course, and sometimes she's called by her first name, sometimes her second. Sometimes both.

I still think you both are wrong... but I answered your hypothesis, further downthread.

No scared violet am I.

I'm not wrong, btw.

Oh - and... is being transgendered a "disease?" You just compared it to diabetes - something I wouldn't do.

Why not compare it to diabetes? It's a lifelong issue, it involves chronic care.

Nothing shameful about either.

I also compared it to being a racial minority, to having parents divorce, and other things as well.

The point, though it went clear over your head, is that this child is dealing with a real issue NOW. Not one that can be put on a back burner for 8 more years.

Do you realize there are kids who committ suicide rather than have to live a lie? Do you?

please read the article

do you think you're an expert on children because you have a child? your child is irrelevant in this discussion.

Dude, it's called "empathy." I know therefore I understand.

But the fact is you know nothing about the condition, nothing about the particular child.

Not that that has prevented you from sharing your "expertise".

I see you said you have children.
Is one of them gender dysphoric?

because I work with them and my partner is trans and has always been. You have no 'empathy'! That's hysterical. You're just blathering on about a subject you are completely ignorant about!

I just don't chose to share why I'm not.

You're more judgmental than I'll ever be. I just want the kid to be "OK" and, whether you like it or not, the fact remains that society isn't "OK" with this.

Let the kid be a kid a little while longer until her/his mind can capacitate the problems. And until his/her body finishes some sibilance of puberty.

You guys are living in a world where it's perfect and there is no discrimination - there is and I don't know which is worse, but I damn well know it's better to have your mind and whits about you to survive.

Good for your work. But... you guys... do you really live in a world where it's not going to be more detrimental? Seriously.

I don't know. I think the outside hate is more detrimental than the inside loathing.

Your ignorance of the issue is well established. I don't care if you know a trans adult or two. It has nothing to do with dealing with kids.

You keep saying "let the kid be a kid a little longer" as if you can delay the issue. But she's been dealing with it since age 2.

You keep saying it's hormonal but you keep ignoring the fact that it's abut IDENTITY not SEX.

This girl lives in the real world, but you don't if you think she's just a sweet girl with a novel idea in her head. This is her issue and has been for her whole life - you're arguing for her parents to be remiss in dealing with it.

I think she's a young female without the benefit of pubescent horomones.

Look, not only should she wait for youth's sake, she should wait for her body's sake.

If it doesn't change - and it probably won't - please just let her wait.

You care so much? Be there for her when she's bawling because she has no friends, OK?

It's not just her body, it's society, too.

Oh, Dear Lord, won't you guys let up off me so you'll understand. It's not just HER - it's HER whole life and the rest of society. I DON'T want her dying - that's why I want her to wait... I think her parents are good to be supportive - I just think it's too young. Why don't they just let her go to school in jeans - why change her name and such - ease her, themselves and everyone else into it?

Too bad you can't understand the difference.

You say "Be there for her when she's bawling because she has no friends, OK?"

What on EARTH makes you think she has friends NOW?

She is already a transgender kid.

You say "It's not just her body, it's society, too."

No honey - it's not even her body - it's her name and her clothes. Her body will do exactly as it will.

You say "I DON'T want her dying - that's why I want her to wait..." But you don't get that the WAIT part is exactly what leads to a lot of suicides. You don't know or you don't care. Which is it?

but, I hope you guys know that hormones play a VERY important role in conception, pregnancy, birth and growth.

I'm surprised you're arguing about that.

That doesn't even make any sense.

Don't you understand that people like you who call transboys "sweet girls" and trannygirls "nice boys" drive these children to madness?

I'm queer. I live in a world where 50% of the people despise me. I live in the same world you do. But, so what? I like me.

Do you really think for one moment that the outside hate stops because someone stays in the closet? All you wind up with is self-hatred in a society that despises you. Let this little person be himself. There is nothing permanent being done. There is plenty of room for him to become whoever he wants.... even if he wants to be feminine at 13. Life is a spectrum of choices.

Silence does indeed equal death. It cannot protect us.

The fact that you say that I'm 'more judgemental than you'll ever be' is ridiculous. I'm just stating a fact-- that you don't have the proper information to be making judgements on trans kids and their families. Your kids aren't trans. And (unless you are trans and living a closeted life of self-hatred) you aren't trans either.

I don't have an opinion on your family and what you should do with your children. And I believe that you should let tg kids and their families figure out what's best for them.

I promise you that the inside loathing is worse than the outside hate. And by the way, the self-loathing interferes with that "better to have your mind and whits about you to survive" thing you were mentioning.

But there are children who are.

And the funny thing is you claim you're an expert on your child. But you're unwilling to respect the notion that maybe this girl's parents are experts on her, and the physician may have some expertise as well.

("let's get her through puberty first")

Not everything about gender is sexual though, it's about identity. Not just genitals or sex.

Seriously - I think she just doesn't get it.

If I had had someone who would have been willing to actually work with me at the age of 11 when things really began to NOT make sense to me any more, I would never had tried to commit suicide and I would be a lot better off today. I still haven't found a psychiatrist to talk to who is knowledgable about transgender/transsexual issues. The ignorance on the topic is so widespread, it appalls me. If only people could try to understand. I'd give anything, and I mean anything, to be able to go back to my early teen years or even earlier and live my life as a male instead of being trapped in a female body for 34 years. My entire life would be different. A million times better, I think. And it's something a person cannot explain to someone who hasn't felt it.

As an adult, you are making this a sexual issue. It's hardly that for the child. It's an identity issue.

ROFL!!! Kids have gender roles and expectations put on them from the moment someone yells "It's a __________!"

Wow. Gender still a whisper, that's crazy.

Really, there aren't assigned responsibilities for genders. I had to wash dishes AND change the oil on the Maverick. Big deal.

Dunno - maybe some parts of the South are more liberal than you think.

Great straw man there. We do all kinds of different things, too, but if you actually think gender is just a whisper at the age of nine, I've got a great bridge to sell you.

Gender statements, whether you like it or not, whether you consciously notice them or not, are given to kids CONSTANTLY. Every single day.

The very fact that you even CLASSIFY responsibilities by saying "hey I had to do this AND this" shows that you still think of them in a gender-defined way, which blows away your assertion that gender is but a whisper to these kids. It isn't.

A 9 year old child has no clue what they want.

These parents should be sent to counseling. They are nuts.

When the child matures and goes through puberty, and still feels transgendered, by all means support him/her. But to give in to the WHIM of a 9 year old is totally irresponsible. In my opinion they are shirking their duties as parents.

Those of you who think this is normal behavior are delusional.
This is not normal behavior.

BTW, don't give me the "medical professionals agreed" argument.
I guarantee you I can find some medical professional to agree with just about anything.
A medical degree does not equal infallible.

every transgendered person on the planet would agree with the decision of these parents.

And actually transgendered people do often identify as MtF or FtM before puberty.

And you are ignorant on this issue. It has nothing to do with what doctors say and everything to do with what transpeople say about themselves.

And this child is only asking to dress in boys clothes and be called by a boys name.

And maybe you should just read the story and think before you post because those of us in the trans and gay communities are getting a little sick and tired of all the ignorant, unthinking, mindless reactions on this thread.

If you want to have an opinion on transgendered kids, get to know one before you spout off at the mouth.

If you want to have an opinion on transgendered kids, get to know one before you spout off at the mouth

Last time I looked, you are not a part of my family or my social circle. You know nothing about me or my situation, so keep your attacks to yourself.

I do have a family member who is MtF and I do have some experience in this arena.

Whether they had these gender issues before puberty or not is not relevant.
It is the job of parents to protect their child, these parents are not doing that. The smart thing to do would be to get this child to counseling immediately. That way she can actually find her true identity. But to just ask school officials to go along with this, is wrong. It is going to lead to ridicule from the other students, if not outright violence against this girl.


And this child is only asking to dress in boys clothes and be called by a boys name

Not at 9 years old.

Sorry, that's my take on it. I'm entitled to my opinion just like you are.

Sorry. I didn't realize that your MtF relative gives you the right to jump to conclusions about how other people should live their lives by reading a 5 paragraph news report.

Considering that I'm partnered with an FtM and I've never in my life met an FtM who didn't want to be taken seriously as soon as he came out, at whatever age... I think you have ZERO right to an opinion when it comes to how someone else should raise their child.

And sorry, but these parents and their child ARE in therapy and they should be because there are people in the world who think that it's BAD to have a 9 year old biological female wear boys clothes and have a boys name.

An MTF family member... please! You obviously no nothing about trans issues. Are some of your best friends black too?

I almost lost my nephew/now niece, due to medical complications with the surgery.

I think you have ZERO right to an opinion when it comes to how someone else should raise their child.

Whether you like it or not, I have a right to any opinion on any subject, as do you and everyone else.

Are some of your best friends black too?

Are you trying to be funny?
What's your point with this racist question?

Unfortunatly this thread started with the abreviated AP version of the story. The local paper has far more to say about this Eagle Tribune

The diagnosis was made npot by the parents but by medical experts.


And this may be the best time to start dealing with issues. Before the secondary sex characteristics make a true change virtually impossible.

You know zero about this kid.

Your opinion means zilch. But you are indeed entitled to it, wrong as it may be.

If this kid is ALREADY suffering, if she is already a well established gender dysphoric, this mayy be the BEST way to handle it.

I never wanted people to refer to me as a boy. In fact I would have gotten angry about it.

You're confusing two different issues. Gender identity is different than sexuality.

but I think that many trannyboys pass as tomboys to keep the love of their family and friends.

Is there any "slicing" and forced gender reassignment even implied in this article? You are ranting about what seems to be the opposite situation from what is described here.

when he grew up but his parents didn't buy him a saddle and change his name to "Flicka" either. The dressing in boy's cloths isn't a big thing but the name change could be something that effects the child on an emotional level. If her name was "Alice" and they changed it to "bob", that might be traumatic later if this is just a reaction to hormones. If they changed her name to Tony or Terry, then it is a matter of changing a "y" to an "i". Let the child get to 13 or so before changing her life very much.

You must think parents and physicians carelessly go around reassigning gender, because hey it's so easy on everyone.

You might, for just a minute, consider that by the time a family reaches THIS point there is a serious and established case, one that on the balance may cause more harm to NOT pursue.

Jesus H Christ, people are fucking ignorant or science.

and emotional issues and I wasn't trying to make light of this child's case. I know that in the majority of cases the parents and doctor have put many pains-taking hours of thought and soul searching into a decision like this. No one knows the facts of this case or how the symptoms manifest themselves with this child. I am just saying that through ongoing therapy and working with the child as she/he grows and matures, they will work together for the child's future happiness.

I did indeed go to school with that boy and he had a very hard time about it. He confessed this in class when the teacher asked everybody to say what they would like to be when they grew up. His parents had to take him out of school because of the abuse. He had started talking about wishing he were dead. No trivia in his case!

a botched circumcision?

That's always a risk with infant circumcision.

The parents were told they'd be best off going ahead with gender reassignment surgery and raising their son as a girl.

It was the beginning of a life of hurt. He always felt wrong, felt he was a boy, and of course was pressured to be as feminine as possible.

Worse still, he was a case study and the quack who guided the whole thing published about what a great success it was!

As a teen, I think, he found out the truth and became "himself" again. Needless to say, even that was very tragic.

Sad story.

earlier this year, called "Identity". I kept thinking of that sad story while reading this thread & the tragedy of that show was the child trying to cope with living up to something he was not. Now I'm wondering if the entire message zipped right over some viewer's heads, just like the confusion shown by a few poster's here.

boy was raised as a girl since doctors had mangled his penis so bad it had to be revised. That is not the same thing. In THAT instance, the medical profession advised the parents and the parents followed. The doctor who had recommended this treatment plan had followed the kids and has since been entirely discredited.

In fact, throughout this thread you are actually saying that the kind of pain that led that male to kill himself should be imposed on this young female i.e. that she should be forced to be something she's not.

school for letting the parents make the decisions for their child. Schools have been so "opinionated" lately. I am not sure how the other parents might feel about their children having to make an adjustment along with this child. Odd case.

To move the child to a new peer group would add more change and would probably be harmful at such a time. But it may be difficult for some of the children who might already know this child to shift over to the new identity. Edited to add..as a result of the influences in their own lives.

I have attended some groups where people assume new identities and have slipped on occasion with the name the person used when i met them. Fortunately the people are wonderful and responded without any mention of it.

Interesting.

The school should be reporting child abuse,

If a grown man or woman decides that they want to pretend to be the opposite sex, to whatever end that is their business.

This girl could be scared for life by this,

medical professional. They're not making the child do anything she doesn't want to do.

And for the most part it's just clothes.

Maybe it's a phase, maybe not. But they're not doing anything immutable.

a "medical professional" damn near left me permanetly mute, doctors fuck up, and when it comes to psychology the bullshit quotient is very high.

It is child abuse, this "boy" is going to be terrorized for the rest of his schooling, people might notice something is wrong when they see a guy with tits, and it isn't like the high school set is the most egalitarian and tollerent group of people.

Setting a child up to be terrorized is child abuse.

Don't you think a gender dysphoric child forced to pretend he or she is something else isn't going to feel tortured?

I'm sorry you had a bad experience but it does not proceed from your experience that every one involving a professional is bad. To the contrary, most are beneficial.

you grant this bullshit legitmacy because a "medical professional" has signed off on it.

"medical professionals" are not flawless, and I am sure for everyone that signs off on this crap, you could find two more who would get out a straight jacket.

Besides - who has better data on it, scientists who study it or some high-strung message board poster?

That's tiny. That's a baby.

Let the child grow up first - then, if the hormones are abated and the process has changed and the child is still a boy in a girl's body, let her change. I have two friends who are male-to-female trans-gendered (friends before that. Didn't know it was in the works until the announcement, so you're correct that it has nothing to do with which sex they preferred - the difference is they are adults.)

It's not fair to do this to a child. It really isn't.

You might baby your child, but you're in serious denial about the capacity of children, with support, to make decisions.

This girl isn't having surgery or taking hormones - she's wearing CLOTHES. It's not irreversible.

it IS irreversible.

You don't remember the cruelty of children.

Man - for someone who is so smart, you piss me off with your lack of memory. Kids are cruel.

I don't baby my child, btw. I just don't treat him like he's an adult, either. He's 5 going on 6, not 5 going on 21.

9 year olds are babies, kids are cruel. Man, you are gripped with fear.

Yes kids can be cruel - and if you don't think there aren't ALREADY issues here you're not thinking very hard.

So the family is dealing with it.

Wearing clothes and using a name are easily reversible.

Having a child so miserable she's at risk for suicide is less reversible. And that is precisely the sort of risk we're looking at here.

You ought to educate yourself on a topic before you pontificate.

What do you know about GLBT kids? Apparently NOT A THING. My partner smoothed his hair back into a ponytail everyday because she wanted to pretend his hair was short. When s/he was five s/he told the barber "my mommy said please cut my hair very short". At thirteen, he went into farming so he could wear boys/men's clothes.

Do you really think this child is trans because it's easy? Or this is a lightly made decision? WTF do you care about the decisions of other families? Do you think this is the only trans child in this country?

Until you live in our community and talk to our people about what it was like for them as children, you really ought to just mind your own business.

Be happy that this child has loving parents that accept him for who he is, whoever he is.

Every kid on the planet is accutely aware of gender identity - in some ways it's a bigger factor for them than it is for adults. Or they're less skilled at masking its relevance.

No?

Then mind your own damn business.

I have a child. Children should be children - and I think at 8 or 9, they don't know - they have a clue, but they don't "know" - and, if they do, it's because we, as adults, have exposed them to it. PERIOD.

We place too much emphasis on stupid shit - like girls should wash dishes and boys should mow yards. That doesn't happen in MY household. We share responsibilities.

Why don't YOU back off and let the kid be a kid. Please. That's all I'm asking.

Since your entire presence on this thread has been commenting on a family you know nothing about, regarding a mental health issue you know nothing about.

Every kid on earth is aware of gender identity. It's not about sex, it's about identity.

This kid IS being a kid. She's a kid with a problem. Same as a kid whose parents are having an ugly divorce, or a kid with leukemia, or a kid with diabetes.

Your desire to keep them infants doesn't mean they don't have to deal with the reality of their lives.

You are ignorant on the issues of the needs of transgender children and your opinion is absolutely and thoroughly and utterly meaningless. And I'm just letting you know that.

When you spend time with trans children or trans grown ups, then I will give you the time of day. Until then, you are just some heterosexual know-it-all sticking your nose into other people's lives.

I don't care what you think about GLBT children because you don't know any or have experience with any.

So this is an invitation for your know-it-all self to pick up any number of books on transpeople at Barnes and Nobles. Until then... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

It's strangely amusing to me to find myself in the position of transgender defender here.

I have some issues of my own with transgender status. Not issues that would ever lead to any discrimination, but more... abstract ones.

But after seeing some of the bizarre know-nothings posting here, I just can't help but question some of MY own past negativity.

no seriously, TG stuff is hard to understand. Largely because our sexual understanding of science is so screwed up. People actually had a much better grasp on this stuff 1000 years ago. And Native Americans have always had a much much better grasp.

And my issues aren't real stumbling blocks.

I've known a few very charming TG people -- some I truly didn't even know WERE TG.

I have some issues about identity and what can be known and what can't - again, abstract stuff.

But thanks for the offer.

raises all sorts of issues of essentialism, etc. Even my partner has issues with it sometimes.

should the parents comply with this wish?

So there's no need to predict. Double mastectomies and testosterone are medical issues. This is not a medical issue, it's an issue of how a child chooses to dress and identify.

Next time a 9 year old is facing diabetes, or parents divorcing, or Leukemia and has to make hard choices remember that: "if the child asks for a double mastectomy at the onset of puberty should the parents comply with this wish?"

That is all these parents are doing. I looked for another story with more info, and there was one with slightly more info stating that as early as 2 this child identified as a boy. She apparently REPEATEDLY told her parents she was a boy. They have dealt with this for 6 years.

IF your child were in pain, be it physical or mental anguish for 6 LONG years, would you not seek to do everything you could to relieve that pain?

She's insisted she was a boy since about age 2. Any dispute causes her real grief.

I don't know if she'll be transgendered or not - but it sure seems a real possibility.

Thankfully for her, if she is transgendered it's much easier as a biological female.

until about 12. The point is, it's never easy to be forced to be something you are not. Imagine a world where people's happiness came BEFORE what they SHOULD do to make total strangers happy.

I'm pretty impressed by the school district's response to this. Thank goodness this poor child was resides in Massachusetts and not Alabama...they'd be laying hands on her and waiting for her to projectile vomit pea soup.

Girls have a far greater range of socially acceptable clothes to wear. Even if they don't opt to refer to themselves as male, they can at least go for the look without TOO much teasing.

I have a physician friend with a number of transgender patients who says her female to male patients tend to fare better and tend to care a great deal less about gender reassignment surgery.

Most transmen I know what top surgery like they want air (unless their breasts are so small it's irrelevant). It's a HUGE issue for them. Bottom surgery is generally a non-issue w/ most of my friends. You spend 100K to have a non-working penis and a whole lot of surgery.

Most boys I know are far more GENDER-centric than phallocentric. My partner included. He wants top surgery and some hormones because she just wants to be treated like one of the guys. He doesn't want to be feminized. It has nothing to do with having a penis. It has to do with just being recognized as a guy. We have straight friends and my best friend (a bio guy) treats my partner (a tg butch) like one of the guys... punches him on the arm, fixes cars with him, plays practical jokes, that's all that matters to him is that he's treated according to his gender biological sex-be-damned.

I think it's interesting. Biological males are SO phallocentric that they think being a guy is all about having a penis. But if you hang around transmen and butch lesbians, it really gives you a deeper understanding of the value and scope of masculine people.

The following is in general not to you specifically. Sorry i got a rambling. :eyes:

A boy that until now has had a girl's name. It is not as if there will be a change in personality here, just a name change. I would bet not much will really change. The interests, preferences, clothes, toys will have already been preferred by him. And seeing as he has parents that care so much for him i am sure if he asked for a car for Christmas they did not buy him a Barbie. Let him be WHO HE IS. If this began at 2 it is most likely not an identity crisis.

It is sad that there has to be such inflexible definition of boy/girl. Everyone is so UNIQUE.

People seem to have a delusion that this is some shirley temple like princess that some evil doctor wants to turn into a boy.

Kids always know the odd one out and I'm sure she's no exception.

perceives himself to be. In this case, the parents are respecting that identification rather than demanding it be changed or that the child somehow continue taking on an identity the child rejects.

The parents can't do anything about societally imposed gender identification, so they do what they can.

I'm with you on the sadness part. But hey..it was all DEFINED before even we were born.

I'm going to bed. Thanks for the interaction.

I hope i did not come off that way. I agree bed for me as well. Night.

Your posts in this thread were completely appropriate..sorry for any mixup.

LOL, you must not know any strong-minded children.

From what I can tell, this isn't being DONE to her. She is strongly requesting this.

And she's nine. Hardly a baby. :eyes: My daughter is in the fourth grade and she's no baby.

:eyes: for your being judgemental, too.

And, you are.

Can you not see that they aren't DOING this to the child?

Believe me, I've read every post of yours on this thread and you really don't get it. It's NOT a sexual issue, it's an identity issue.

Have you ever seen the movie "Boys Don't Cry?" I highly recommend it. Hearbreaking stuff about a woman who was transgendered and when she tried to live as a man, society came down HARD on her. Very hard. And I'm making an understatement. It's based on a true story.

Can you not see that making her (the student in question, not the movie) go to school as a "boy" is hurting her until she's old enough to make that decision for herself? My son would have cake every night for dinner if he was left up to his own decision. He's a smart boy, but he's still learning reason and capability and forethought. He's capable and will be a fine architect someday - but he's still a boy, given to boyish things, and should be.

GRRRRR.... You're missing the POINT.

Why do you think that I think it's sexual (when I put in in quotations the only time I used it), but the rest of the time I've presented it as the natural hormonal activity that takes place the majority of your lives. Why don't you guys get the science in this? Seriously. Why don't you? It's more about letting the girl grow up and mature for her future change than ... you guys don't get it. I'm being beat upon because I think she should just be a kid - keep her girl name, wear jeans and become her own person as she matures and is capable of handling what she will face. Apparently, you guys live in la-la-land where people just accept it.

Look - I don't care if she wants to do it once she'd older. She is a kid and kids are smart and kids are great, but kids are kids. Period. What you people aren't understanding is that kids ARE NOT adults.

I am not the one not getting it here. NO one said kids are adults. We do, however, credit a nine year old with having more of her own mind than you do.

You are CLEARLY missing the point when you say they are "making" her go to school as a boy!!!!!

They aren't MAKING her do anything, this is at HER request and I'm sure she didn't just request it YESTERDAY.

This is SO not comparable to your son wanting to eat cake every night.

If the child feels as strongly about it as this child obviously does, and all it involves is she wears "boy clothes" (which really aren't that horribly different from a lot of girl clothes nowdays) and be called by a boy name (remember, no official name change done), then WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?

Seriously I think there's something more behind your objection to this that you aren't saying.

So let's say after a few months of this, she decides she doesn't feel like a boy after all (which I doubt will happen, but let's just say). So what's the horrible thing that will happen?

She goes back to dressing like a girl (again, not that huge of a difference nowdays), she goes back to using her girl name, end of story.

If she decides she likes to act as a boy and be treated as a boy, then what's the big deal in that case? It continues next school year and next and next. Sure she'll have to deal with some PREJUDICE(!!!!) and some kids and THEIR PARENTS who totally don't understand (!!!!) and jump to all kinds of weird assumptions (!!!) and who think her parents are just so horrible for DOING this to her (WTF?), but just the fact that she got so much support will make a BIG difference later on.

My question to myself is why am I even wasting time talking to you. Yes, the movie about Teena Brandon was dramatized. Part of the reason why she can't tell you about what it was like to be her is because she's dead.

I think you should stop telling the GLBT people on this board who are trying to educate you that we live in la-la land. We live in the real world and we fight the real world everyday.

You know what. Some kids ARE smarter than adults. I have definitely met children who have a way better grasp on this than you do.

Just in case you don't know everything yet. Maybe in your infinite wisdom you'll seek out other people's experience for a change, but I doubt it.

Read Sexing the Body by Ann Fausto Sterling
Read Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg
Read Spirit and the Flesh (book about native american TRANSGENDERED people)
Read African Homosexualities
Read Transgender Warriors

They - in conjunction with a physician - are supporting HER desire.

When will YOU understand that kids are sometimes in situations that call for mature decision making no matter how much you think they're not ready?

What's youy alternative for the kid: Lie aboout who you are, evenn if it leaves you wanting to kill yourself, and do it for another 10 years?

with comments like that when you know full well there are no surgical or hormonal procedures involved? Forcing children into an identity that is not natural for them where they will feel isolated from their peers is child abuse. Too many transgender-identified children have killed themselves to consider what you are proposing to be a viable solution. Don't you wonder why they killed themselves? Because they were forced into an identity that was not natural for them.

I've read your posts on this thread, and I must say that it's unbelievable to me that you have gotten away with such comments as this "if a grown man or woman wants to play dress-up, sleep with other men or women or animals"... Is your name Santorum?

be harmful as well. It is a sticky situation but i think in this case the parents are TRYING to look out for her best interests.

I DO NOT THINK to throw an abuse charge into this would be anything but brutal to this poor kid. She is not an infant. she obviously has feelings to back this. To have her parents investigated would potentially cause the child to feel there is something WRONG with the feelings she has. She is in a situation where people are loving her UNCONDITIONALLY. Many kids should be SO LUCKY.

obviously this is coming from the GIRL, not from her parents, not from the school, not from a doctor.

They aren't letting her have surgery, they aren't doing an official name change.

It's an identity thing to her. So the parents and school treat her as a boy (which really isn't such a big deal at this age, anyway), call her by a boy's name, what's the big deal?

She'll either realize she really does want to continue this way or she'll realize she doesn't.

The question is one of harm and I strongly disagree that she is harming herself with this.

most transmen don't have bottom surgery and 9 year old girls don't really have secondary sex characteristics.

It's not like they are letting her do something irreversible.

This age marks the turning point of sexual differentiation.

When I was a kid I had a sort of step cousin named Carla who was a real tomboy. She was considered a bit of a harmless eccentric. Then one day its revealed she'd been spending time in another neighborhood at the boy's club as Carl. Unfortunately the incident made the local news.

She was about 10 or 11 by then but she'd been trying to live as a boy for a few years by then.

how many of you have young children....would one of you explain to me what i should tell my child who goes to this school?

And I'd say to them "Stephanie feels more like a boy than a girl. She'd rather be called Stephen. Be polite, and have fun."

in the boys bathroom and change my name to steve and bill you will...rush off to target buy them blue clothes and call the school to let them know that bill and steve will be at school on monday?

of course something that depends on the situation there.

I've heard of a school with a similar dilema that simply provided access to the non-gender specific teacher's bathroom for the student.

It really depends on the school and its facilities, as is the case for many kids with special issues.

why should someone who perceives to be of a certain gender be forced to use a segregated washroom?

After-all, according to you their perception is completely valid.

conduct themselves in a way that is safe for them and respects the privacy of other children as well.

Or do you think asking a kid in a wheelchair to use the handicapped access is discriminatory as well?

the novelty of it. It is adults that complicate these things for children. Children are incredible. We could all learn a few things from them.

What a point!

I will always, always, always come down on the side of the kid. I may get fired on Monday because I'm tired of getting picked on a work. If that happens, I will move, because I think God intended me to move - but I looked at my son, who feels like me - wants to move and can't, doesn't want to and does...

And he gave me $2 out of his wallet - half his money - and said, "Mom, I saved this for you in case you lose your job."

Kids are beautiful and wonderful and shouldn't be anything but kids.

>>>but I looked at my son, who feels like me - wants to move and can't, doesn't want to and does...<<<

What an observation. Sometimes it is so hard to see another when we are scared or stressed. He is lucky to have you. And you obviously know how lucky you are. :D

I hope things turn out well for your family.

to see the "nice" in this thread.

Thank you. I teared up hearing you did. I'm scared off my gourd, but I'm tired of being shat upon at work. My home is nice, but my dignity is better.

Thank you.

And just for the record, I am female and have always been female and felt female, but I tried to pee standing up as a child and was very angry that I couldn't. So that's not just something someone who is possibly transgendered would do.

You don't just "run right out." You TALK to the child about it, you ask them questions, maybe take them to a counselor if you see a need. Let THEM think about it.

:eyes:

On a basic level of course. So I would tell my kids the truth and that this is not common, but that does not mean there is anything "wrong" with this child.

many adults. Kids are masters at going with the flow. I have 3 daughters. 6, 7 and 12. They know men who are sometimes women. Does not phase them. They are better at shifting gears than i am.

I wanted to add, if the kids sense a parents anxiety over this though it may confuse and frustrate their natural ability to accept.

has not changed on the inside....who he really is, just what he now wears and what he wants to be called. The things your child may have liked about this child are still there. We have many cases of people redefining themselves and people can call themselves any name they choose. Tell your child to try not to treat this child any differently than he did before.

and if she went to school with a girl who decided she wanted to be treated as a boy and called by a boy's name I'd say "Well, your friend feels like a boy. She wants to be a boy. Maybe she was supposed to be born a boy, but something happened before she was born, we don't know. But if she wants to be a boy, I say respect her wishes and treat her as a boy and call her by her new name."

AND I would encourge my daughter to talk with me about it, we could explore the issue a lot more. She could ask me any questions she has, etc.

But my daughter wouldn't be all that confused, as we once watched a show on TLC (I think, or maybe Discovery?) on transgendered people AND there was an Oprah show once about kids who feel like they are the opposite gender. We talked a lot after watching those, too.

I'd take the simple, honest approach.

my kids were small.

They did ask about homosexuality at a young age. We discussed it openly and evenhandedly. My daughters were nine and my son was seven when they asked.

My oldest says she did not know she was gay until she was in her teens. She was merely curious about the subject when she was younger. But I think she may have been exploring her feelings even then.

I would have told my kids much the same thing you would tell your daughter. But I would also assure them that being transgendered is rare, and they probably were not transgendered themselves. My kids had a tendency to worry about everything. I would have encouraged questions, too.

My kids heard about homosexuality from television, and from things they read. They had questions. There is so little public discussion of transgendered issues that people have a poor understanding of them. Some of the ignorance on this thread is shocking. The fact that it is willful ignorance is even more shocking.

PFLAG has some good information on transgendered people. Please inform yourself before condemning this family for their actions.

at this age. I have three daughters and they change what they like to eat, wear and play with near daily. My oldest is nearing 13 now. As a younger child she resented "girl" labels. At 7 she would say, "I am not a girl, i am a person!" As puberty neared she became a different child. Now she is old enough to understand she can be feminine AND strong. She realizes that her feminine identity does not have to be the identity her female friends have assumed. These things have ALWAYS been taught but she had to find her own way.


I realize this case is more extreme than this and i support that her parents know what is BETTER FOR HER than i do.


I just hope that this child does not go through a continuing process that could possibly lead her to regret this decision. Or worse that if she does she will not feel trapped by this decision if life leads her into a differant place as she ages.

I wish her the best, wherever her life takes her.

because they are actually supporting the child. Most transgendered youth have no support and are often looked down upon by both the straight and even more shameful the gay community.

I'm afraid most people only get their opinion of the transgendered by watching the Jerry Springer show. The people on there have nothing to do with the real life transgendered.

This comment it not in response to your post. It makes me sad to see how some people think biology is black and white and it just isn't so. Throw the parents in jail for supporting their child? How about the gay youth? Throw their parents in jail too? Their is a big difference between a being a tomboy and someone with gender dysphoria.

It is a serious question of just how far to go with a child. I bet my female to male S.O. wishes he had the support this child is having at that age. At 21, he is just starting therapy and hopefully testosterone treatments.

Personal note: My Mom constantly has problems referring to my b/f as male, it really does bother him but he doesn't say anything to her about it because he understands.

i think it is great that the kid gets to do what it wants

i find it odd that the rest of the school and the effect of the one special child somehow needs to be, well, discussed, who cares do whatever you like, live and let live, why even bring it up

oh sorry, i love to argue both sides of an issue,

If little Jennifer starts asking to be calling James and so on, it's a bad set up for teasing and confusion and misbehavior.

Better to be up front about it and explain that this is how things are, and everyone is expected to behave.

There will certainly still be some difficulty, but better to establish the guidelines up front than leave the kid on her own.

It makes me deeply sad that people often cannot see the beauty of "individuality". I agree that this child is very fortunate to have such loving parents.

On the personal note. I have a short circuit somewhere. lol. If someone is introduced to me as Jonathan, and they prefer to be called John, I slip and call them Jonathan for the next 5 years. :dunce: I have no idea why this is.

Poor little kid... "it" doesn't get to make "it's" own decision.

WHY do parents FUCK UP THEIR CHILDREN?

I have NO PROBLEM with homosexuals, transgenders, etc, but this is a little kid, not an adult who can make a conscious decision - his/her/it's parents are making it for him/her/it. He/she barely knows gender, much less sex.

Dear Lord. When is too much, too much?

She's a KID! A BABY! A CHILD! Guide her, protect her and let her be the sex she was born. If it isn't right, then, hell... let her deal with it later when she's old enough to make that determination for herself. Medical professional, my ass! EIGHT? EIGHT YEARS OLD?

Sorry, I'm outraged and blathering. *harrrummmph*

And if you think 9 year olds don't know gender you don't know kids.

She's not getting hormone treatment or surgery. She's wearing clothes and using a different pronoun. Nothing irreversible.

Outraged panic will likely do the kid more harm than just relaxing and seeing where she goes with it.

There are times when this website just scares me, it is people like this who have made liberal a four letter word.

If a freeper read some of the stuff people posted here, I wouldn't blame them for saying liberals are insane.

If a freeper read some of the stuff here it would go right over their head! Things are not always black and white, nor are they always crystal-clear. Personally, my mental health would never be accurately understood by a freeper anyway, so I fail to see why it is an issue if they think I'm 'insane.'

illness and psychology, as freely admitted in his posts, so his strange infatuation with it can be understood.

I said i had issues with a "medical professional" who fucked up badly trying to apply his pet theory to everyone who walked through the door.

It was a physical deformation in the through, not mental illness.

For someone who suffered from someone "trying to apply his pet theory to everyone who walked through the door" you're strangely willing to do the same thing to others.

Should you let a 9 yearold live out a delusional fantasy?

No!

That's one of the likely outcomes of forcing a gender dysphoric child to deny who he or she feels they are.

Of course you're not concerned with torture - you're already advocating drugging them for a condition they don't even have, rather than let a girl wear pants.

Do you have a degree in Psychology? Somehow I doubt it since it seems you have some disdain for that profession. However, many a person can tell you at that age they were aware of who and what they are...I knew I was gay. So, it is possible that this child knows she got the wrong "goodies." No one is advocating gender reassignment; however, I don't see it as wrong to let the child express how she feels. Who is it hurting?

You need a reality check. You might start here: http://www.gender.org.uk/about/ although I doubt you will.

For goodness sakes, she's going to wear "boy clothes" - as if that's so unusual - and use a more traditionally masculine name.

What's not to panic over?

huh? It's neither a delusion nor a fantasy.

You need to read up on gender identity a bit. It is a separate thing from sexuality.

this age. I did, you did (I guess), and this child has. Your assertion that this child "doesn't get to make "it's" own decision" is simply unsupported by the few known facts presented in this article or anything known by science about gender ID formation. Indeed, to the extent that the parents and medical professionals agreed, the kid's own sense of self is certainly the main factor in their support of this course of action.

Frankly, the responses you and the other poster have border on hysteria. If the child truly IDENTIFIES as a male, then let the child BE himself. If it's all for naught, then the parents can switch schools or take a variety of actions that do not involve forcing their child to be something he is not.

Perhaps, you should watch the Brandon Teena story to see the real tragedy of forcing this issue into hiding.

As far as the other school kids, if they are exposed to this at an early age and learn to respect the space and wishes of another, all the better they will be.

As a gay woman who KNEW I was gay when I was 6, there's a hell of a lot to be said for not going through life running a dog and pony show for the sake of your parents and your school and being able to be WHO YOU ARE.

how any of us GLBT people have survived as long as we have. I mean, this is a *progressive* site with progressive parents. It's no wonder the GLBT youth suicide rate is so high.

The dog and pony show is a great way to put it. What horrible self-hatred and insanity it breeds. With parents like this it sounds like this little person will emerge strong no matter who he becomes. Good for them.

I don't, but the parents of this child certainly do. My hat is off to them for this. As I said, I googled the story and found one extra paragraph wherein the mother was quoted as saying there were earlier signs at 2, but that consistently the child had told them that she was a boy. If this is their resolve after 6 years, then good. I say letting the child express himself is FAR less invasive than the insensitive suggestion made above that they MEDICATE the child.

I've had parents frantically ask me HOW to explain "GAYNESS!!!" to their kids, because it's "ALL OVER TV!!!"

:eyes:

Sigh. So I tell them that when my daughter was five she asked me what "gay" meant (she had heard it at school) and I said "Most men fall in love with women and most women fall in love with men, but some men fall in love with men and some women fall in love with women. Those people are called gay or the big word for it is homosexual."

She thought about it, said "ok" and off she went.

We've had several discussion since then (she's 10) and she's fairly well-versed on the differences in human sexuality, including transgendered individuals. I'm glad of that.

I have a cousin who tried to kill herself at 16 in the 70s. She was lesbian. Tried it three times, her parents were frantic wanting to know what was wrong. When she finally told them (from a hospital bed) they practically fainted with relief. Oh that's ALL??? they said. It was a relief to her, too. She had no idea they'd be so supportive. Her mother cried tears of joy (that that's "all" it was). She's now in her 40s, very happy, and has been with her partner for 10 years. I'm so glad she survived. She's one of my funniest, warmest cousins. She gave me a sip of champagne when I was 15! ;-)

Seriously. Some of the people on DU's parenting skills terrify me. I mean, if any of these people who shield their children's ears from GLBT issues turn out to be gay or trans... what a tragedy.

It really freaks me out. Thank you, thank you! If any of your children or grandchildren are GLBT they'll have a chance, ya know? My parents were always incredibly supportive and life was still tough. My parents always told me that it was okay if I turned out gay and I still stayed in the closet for fear of the other kids (this was in the early 80s).

Parents like you save the lives of people like me.

When my daughter was eight, I was driving along and she said "Momma, I've been thinking about it, and just so you know, I'm pretty sure I like boys."

I said, "ok."

She said "I just wanted you to know."

I said ok again.

It was funny. She has a friend at school, Patrick, and she was telling me about something funny he did or said and she said real offhand "he's gay." I asked her how she knew that and she said "Well, he doesn't like girls. I mean he DOES, he likes us a lot, but we're his friends. He just doesn't like girls like THAT."

I asked her how she knew this and she laughed and said "He TOLD me, Momma!" Apparently it's no big deal and I'm glad. The other kids love him, treat him fantastically.

I love it! I have hope for the younger generation!

Oh and I taught eighth grade until just recently and it wasn't a thang to be gay. I had an openly gay student who was tres popular with all the kids.

What area did you teach in? That really makes my night. I get so worried about GLBT kids because I remember how devasting it was. My partner is only 25 and it was even devastating for him (he's TG).

That is really good news. Most of the kids I know still seem to have it rough, but many of them are TG, which is still largely undiscussed.

girlfriends.

It's most funny in the context of knowing her - when she dies they'll inscribe "I want both" on her tombstone. Given the choice of any two flavors of ice cream she'll want both. The choice between swimming and going to a movie, she'll say BOTH.

So not surprisingly, she thinks there's appeal to boys AND girls.

are going to be understanding why this little girl now is a boy?

I hope to GOD your child isn't transgendered. I really do.

THEY AREN'T DOING ANYTHING TO THIS CHILD!!

But then you'll never believe that because you seem to believe an eight or nine year old can't possibly have a mind of their own.

:eyes:

and I give kudos to these parents and especially this school for handling this so well.

The greatest challenge, of course, would be concern for the child finding his or her place in the world and not facing cruelty or insensitvity. But with more positive cases like this that fear may be assuaged for those who may face it.

then this is great. Better, probably, than gender reassignment at a later age, as the child will be able to grow up and come of age with a social gender identity that matches their innate neurological sense of masculinity. Personally, I don't see a problem (except perhaps from other children, who can be exceptionally cruel, vicious little fucks...these people might have to move if the kid's not going to get killed at school).

Children are cruel enough without making this poor child have to deal day in and day out with the teasing and bullying that will surely happen.

The least they could have done is to move to a new district where no one would "remember" that he was a "she" before vacation..

Before anyone "jumps" me, I am NOT being flip about this..

Our oldest's birth defect was such that when he was a newborn, doctors actually tried to convince us to "turn him into a girl", because the "surgery would be easier"..:grr:..

Thank goodness we were smart enough to tell them no.. He is now 31, happily married to a wonderful girl, and even though he had many surgeries and they did not all "work out" as well as we had hoped, he would have never forgiven us if we had made such a traumatic decision "for" him.

No big deal.

if she is a transgendered kid. The hormones haven't even hit yet.

We identify as a gender long before we become sexually mature.

They are two different issues.

Actually, it is pleasing to see that so many here actually do get it.

I have always found it interesting though how some progressives can compartmentalize their liberalism into certain zones, like politics . . . and totally sign on to conservative thinking in other areas of their lives. It makes me realize that some people just don't pay much attention to what they believe in. Or, more accurately, that people generally believe what feels good and only use their brains to justify it.

Among other things liberalism means applying the minimum of force to other people's minds - personally and in society as a whole. It applies as much to black kid who wants to grow up to be a doctor as to a 9 yo white bio-female who believes in his mind that he is a boy.

They both face a mean and angry society that wants to keep both in their place - and many who will use whatever force they can to do so.

People, even children, have the right to do as they please about these things. One of the first things a TG child realizes in life at around two years old is that people treat them and relate to them as the opposite gender from what they believe they are. Kids can work this out themselves as they grow - with support from their familes and teachers and protection from bigots.

Our sense of gender is central to our whole life experience. All further learning is done within the context of one's gender.

Forcing a gender identity on someone is the worst form of cruelty possible - at any age.

It's always nice to hear an intelligent, sane voice. Every now and then my voice can hit an intelligent pitch, but it is rarely sane. These folks send me howling to the madhouse with all the anti-trans comments. All I can think about is my poor transgendered sweetheart and all the crap he takes.

"Ma Vie en Rose" - available at any good video store or from Netflix.

It's a very well done French movie (wouldn't ya know it?) with English subtitles.

I'd recommend it for anyone who really wants to understand more about what being a TG child is like.

trans people have such a rich and varied cross-cultural history it just sickens me to see these poor kids so screwed over by willfully ignorant adults who would deny them the right to wear the clothes they want to wear.

Well, I guess these transkids should suffer in silence 'for the sake of the children'. Oh wait, they are the children.

Thanks

When I was a little girl, I didn't really like being a girl. I didn't really want to be a boy either. I thought that differentiating people on the basis of their gender was stupid. I didn't identify at all on the first day of preschool (entered mid year) and the boys yelled "Girls have cooties". The girls yelled "Boys have cooties." I wanted to do what I wanted regardless of what society told me I should do in respect to my gender.
When I went through puberty, with my female hormones and female body, I becmae a woman. I am probably less feminine mentally than the average woman but now I identify as a woman, am married, and want to be a mother.
Although many children are already oriented strongly to gender as children, they are not too much different hormonally until they go through puberty. In mammals, these hormones are the main basis of sex specific behavior.
What do I know though? If I said that a female child wanting to be a boy was wrong, that would be like being a bisexual and saying that homosexuality is a choice.

That's gonna be weird and really hard on the child--the other kids know this child has the body of a girl, and you know how vicious kids are.

In another school the child (do you say she or he when someone's gender dysphoric? I'm thinking he because the brain is leading the body at this point) could be referred to and treated as a boy without much uncalled-for harassment. In this school he will go through all sorts of hell.

They're going to know she's biologically a girl trying to pass as a boy.

And all things considered, she's probably been doing that to some degree already, and at least may have grown up with the kids at the same school (so they may already be her friends). Kids at a new school would have no real reason to be kind or understanding.

Interesting how once "hot" posts can sink.

than the parents, child, and medical professionals in this case; why don't you read the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force's report on the issue.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/transeq.pdf

Sorry to interrupt the shock and horror and mouth-covering gasps of all the folks offended to learn that *yes virgina, there are trans kids before hormones kick in.*

Please note, that this child has been identifying as male since TWO YEARS OF AGE and he is now NINE.