School orders mom to spank son--or else

School orders mom to spank son--or else

6-year-old suspended after mother refuses to spank him for numerous disciplinary infractions; instead she yanks him from school

By Diane Rado
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 6, 2005


A 6-year-old boy who often talked too much in class was suspended from 1st grade at Schaumburg Christian School last week after his mother refused to spank him.

Chandler Scott Fallaw, a rambunctious boy, had been piling up disciplinary notes for talking, chewing gum, bringing toys to class and not finishing classwork, said his mother, Michelle Fallaw-Gabrielson. "By no means is my child perfect," she acknowledged.

But she never anticipated the ultimatum delivered at school Wednesday.

When she arrived to pick up Chandler, she said, assistant administrator Linda Moreau told her the school needed assurances that the boy would be disciplined. "She said, `Either he gets a spanking before he leaves today, or I'm suspending him,'" Fallaw-Gabrielson recalled.

She said she refused to spank her son and left with the assistant administrator calling after her: "You know he's suspended, and that's a very serious matter on his record."

Fallaw-Gabrielson withdrew Chandler from the school the next day.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0503060429mar06,1,4211570.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Amazingly Stupid school administrator. Can't a kid just be a kid? Do they expect the kids to just be ritalin-induced statues nodding and saying "Yes, Teacher..?" Talking, chewing gum, bringing toys to class? Capital offenses, all of them.

RL

:kick:

if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail! People that get outsmarted by thiers kids at 6 should tell you something. (you've seen them in the store.. yelling at thier kids bout why they are doing this to them.. like yelling at a screaming kid helps) Spanking has much less effect than positive encourgement, AND discipline of a non-violent nature. Otherwise, how do you teach your child that it is wrong to hit people? Kids learn from what you do, whether you want them to or not, they will emulate you, especially the younger 1's.

chewing gum? Bringing toys to class? How do these actions justify violent punishment?


"Amazingly Stupid school administrator. Can't a kid just be a kid?"

I completely agree. Well said.

Looks normal to me. Chewing gum? How about 'spit that out'
Brought toys? How about 'put those in your cubby until school's over'

That just does not work.

You must first devise a stupid and emotional argument which has absolutely no basis in fact. Then just tell em "you gotta accept this by faith alone" and they will pile on by the Ark-load.

Extra points are given if you work in a couple flags and a fishie decal.

... and I'm not for it either. That is a parental decision, not a school decision.

The mother did the right thing.

She, and presumably the child's father, were involved in enrolling the child in a school run by Bethel baptist Church.

Are you saying she should have known the school would want her to spank? I'm not sure I get your point????

Anyone foolish enough to be surprised by such a request from any private school displayed that foolishness when they failed to thoroughly educate themselves about the school, its policies, its administration, and its teachers.

There are wonderful private and public schools available. There are terrible public and private schools available. It's not that hard to do the necessary due dilligence to determine the quality of the school one is contemplating choosing for their kids.

My point is simply that, while I strogly disagree with the administrator, Mom and Dad should have done their homework before enrolling their child. This would likely have been avoided has they done so. We're talking about a single-family choice; not a national election.

... that makes it clear enough.

I'm not sure that even a small majority of parents think to ask such questions ahead of time, but you have a point that they probably should.

I'm not convinced the administration would tell her in advance: we sometimes suspend students for not being spanked.

This could easily be an administrator losing their grip rather than some sort of official school policy.

If you read the article, it states that the school puts out literature where it states that "parent-administered corporal punishment" is one of the deterrents used.

Not that I think that spanking is necessary or even the best method of punishment, but I don't see why its a news story that a school was following its own guidelines.

but yes, it's not up to the school how a parent chooses to discipline their child. That takes a lot of nerve. Good for the Mom. However, I'm surprised that it being a Christian school corporal punishment isn't de rigeur. I went to a Christian school back in the day (early seventies, kindergarten)and they spanked us with a ruler. Well, it's a different age, thank God.

I'm scared of the school system these days. Some schools are forcing children to take ritalin for being perfectly normal kids.

RL

*spanking* or detention. This teacher would paddle teenage girls.

Makes one wonder. ;)

I don't think he'd get away with it today?

In some places they don't even give the parent the option to opt thier child out of it or have a system for investigating and correcting abuses.

When I was Jr High (thirty-some yrs ago) they sometimes would give you a choice of a couple swats with a paddle or an hour detention after school. You could get your swats and be on your way, it was so much faster.

The tone of your post reveals that you didn't read the report very closely. The school being discussed is a private school. It's run by Bethel Baptist Church.

http://www.bethelministries.org/scs.html

Ain't Google grand?

Public schools priviate schools, they are all basically prisons for holding children all day. Granted their are a few exeptions.

Although we've lived in four states where our kids have attended 8 different schools (three elementary, two middle, two high schools, one state college). Amazingly, they were/are all great public schools.

don't you think many parents think of it more along the lines of free (if it's a public school) babysitters?

they don't give a damn what others have to deal with as a result of their lack of rearing, as long as THEY don't have to deal with it.

call them on it and all of a suddent they get real defensive about little betty's, or bobby's, "rights".

edit to add:

the principal did the right thing by suspending. but he should never have mentioned the spanking option.

but I think most parents consider schools to be places where their child is supposed to be getting a fucking education.

what i thought of it when i was there too.:shrug:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

of the educational system.

"their"

That can make them feel forced if they don't know they have alaternatives.

for not taking Ritalin. I've worked at three public schools in special ed.

No student can be expelled in a public school for not taking Ritalin.
Private schools may expel a student for misbehavior much more easily than a public school. Private schools also do not have to accept a student back into their school or any other private school for misbehavior. Public schools must provide alternatives by law.

As to the alternatives, Public schools must demonstrate that contingency management or other behavior modification plans have been tried prior to any expulsion. Private schools are not under such mandates.

how would she explain it to her 6 yr old son?

"sorry son but although you are not being naughty, this adminstrator, who you should respect, wants me to beat you."

in any other context the treatment would surely be thought of as abuse.

"You got in trouble in school?!?" And then BOOM.

bah hahahahahaha..........yes being naughty. tell the kid after talking in class chewing gun bringing toys not doing work, that he is not being naughty. hence obviously mom feels the same way, why the child never corrected self and school got to the point they did

that is both absurd and funny

that spanking was corporal punishment and we could not do it. Back when my son was in school we dared not spank our kids for fear of going to jail.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and that........is just bullshit

got arrested for tying naked teen-age girls to a ladder, and then beating them with a belt. He had somehow convinced their parents to bring their kids to him for disiplinary action.

I think that sick bastard was only charged with assult; instead of with a sex crime that he should have been.

I have never known a 6 year old who did not have trouble with those things. Good for his mother.

His first grade teacher and my wife and myself have had a running dialogue this semester about helping change his behavior and help him make better choices in class. We've tried several different techniques, including rewards, linked consequences, making him fill out a "How Was My Day" sheet everyday to bring home for us to sign, etc., and he has improved much over the past few months. He's gone from 4 or 5 days a week with discipline problems to once a week or every other week. It takes some hard work, and patience, and the effect are not always immediate.

The spanking route is just some twisted christian school administrator showing her laziness, lack of patience and lack of knowledge. I am not 100% anti-spanking, but in this case, the kids would NEVER link the punishment to the reason for the punishment. Instead it was all about her power trip.

I praise the mother for doing the right thing.

RL

edit: spelling

or the other stuff too. my oldest had the talking issue. was about third grade he started both maturing out of it and the teacher would have him write sentences. other punishments didnt bother him as much, and he did have more control. but this really helped him. i havent heard his fourth grade teacher even say it is an issue now

i have a friend with a son same issue, two years ahead. she told me a year ago, fourth they seem to gain control

just to share, to give you hope. lol lol. teachers and i did a lot of stuff to help edmund, that did help him

interrupting in class, not following rules.

We discovered his biggest complaint is that "school is boring." This is a first grader. So we asked the teacher to give him more work, and he seems much better now that he is more challenged.

RL

chewed gum in class and didnt finish his homework. neither of my 6 years olds did.

now my oldest has always gotten it for talking in class. 4th grade has more controll now. but every discipline even if i felt extreme, i supported the teacher. and we always communicated with one another and worked together on the issue. even came up with some reasonable, workable solutions to help child.

this is in a private funding school. we had conversation first day of enrolling boys, about spanking. i made it clear to the head dude, spank or not, no one touches my child but me.

and never was it suggested as punishment for either boy.
they had two parents that worked with both child and teacher/school for the best interest of child

Nobody touched my children but we always worked with and supported the teacher so we could work together. It works that way, very well. Mine turned out wonderfully I am proud to say.

My six year old daughter has no problem being attentive in class, nor do the majority of her classmates.

While I don't believe it is the schools place to order punishment (especially spanking), it is the parents responsibility to discipline the child in some meaningful way so that the child can learn that there are times and places for that kind of behavior and school is not the place.

Schools (good ones) are not prisons. If you feel that they are I am sorry you had such a bad experience. My kids love school. That is partly because they do attend a very good school and partly because my wife and I have instilled in them a love for learning.

The idea that it is either the schools fault or the parents fault alone that problems exist with education is the great fallacy here. There should always be some form of ongoing dialog or interaction with the school and the family. That people ARE using schools as day-care service and that the schools have acceded to this position is the real problem.

I'm a potential mother who has not ruled out the occassional spanking. I was spanked, as was my husband, when we were kids. I feel, though, that it has to be a punishment meted out with caution, care, and reasonableness. Never spank out of anger. It must be controlled, and a spanking should NOT be confused with hitting a child (slapping, punching, pushing, or anything else).

Having said that, I would freaking PUNCH the principal of any school if they gave me an ultimatum such as this. It's horrible! My children would not attend such a school.

your reaction to conflict. You seem to believe that violence is an appropriate means of problem solving.

While punching the priciple might make you feel good, it would also likely end you up in court on battery charges and might leave you open to a civil suit as well.

I'm a single dad of of three and I won't spank ever because I don't want to teach my kids that violence solves problems.

I have some pretty well behaved kids who are being constantly praised by teachers and friends parent's as being very nice, very well mannered, and very respectful of other people and themselves.

Since this can be accomplished without spanking, why spank?

Schaumburg Christian School is a private school. I've read a few comments that were made by posters who've obviously missed that point.

Here's the website: http://www.bethelministries.org/scs.html

My wife taught in public school until her retirement, so I've learned a few things over the years. One of the main things I learned is that public and private schools are entirely different animals. The gap has gotten wider in the last 20 years since it seems as though every yahoo with an ordination certificate want to have both a school and a church.

Mom enrolled her kid at the school. Either she agreed with their values and teaching methods at the time of enrollment or she was an idiot for failing to do the proper research. She also has the right to remove her kid from that school and place him in either another private school or dump him in the public system.

People put their kids in these schools because they see them as a better alternative to public schools. When they make that choice for their kids, they also accept the consequences of that choice for both the kids and themselves.

Tempest in a teapot. Mom, put the kid in a school with values that more closely match yours and let Schaumberg Christian School go about its silly business.

It's just a Moral Values thing...

Do you think when she enrolled her kid she was given a list of these so-called Christian values? Or maybe they could just pull any quote out of the bible, and call it a "value"

RL

This is a mess on a lot of different levels. The administrator has issues--no doubt about it. Under no circumstances should any administrator DEMAND a specific punishment for a kid--ever--that is meted out by parents.

The parents put the kid in that school and they were most likely told if the school used corporal punishment at that time. Given that the school admin demanded Mom spank the kid, I have to wonder if maybe they were unable to do it at the school by policy...

Something i was trying to figure out, however, is how is the kid getting the gum and the toys? My first grader was with us (or her after school caretaker) when she wasn't in a classroom or under the care of the school. If the kid was bringing candy to school I can see how the school got frustrated.

Similarly, I have to think the issue of toys at school is another one of those things that parents can just say "NO" to. (I have done that, btw, so don't think I'm talking out my ass here.) You can control what goes in your kids' backpack, and it goes with the turf--ya know?

I'm not criticizing the parents. per se, nor am I criticizing the school (except for the idjit Administrator trying to tell a parent HOW to punish their own kid.) I think there were issues here, but they sound more like common sense ones, nothing more.


Laura

We found out he was sneaking them anyhow. After we began checking his backpack and lunchbox, and talked about sneaking, he stopped.

RL

The schools could do everything 100% right (and we know they don't always) and it still would fall short if the parents don't reinforce it at home and in life.

Most parents would never dream of siting by while someone abused their kid. Many parents would be all over a school if they thought their kid was not learning anything. Not every parent follows up on lessons or even issues at school. I'm sure teachers get tired of sending notes home or calling to talk to a parent and getting blown off.

I'm not saying that is what happened here--I honestly don't know--but I can see how teachers and administrators could get to the breaking point in some cases. I'll grant you, THIS particular administrator went over the top, but I do see how it could happen.

As a parent, you knew it was an issue for your kid to have toys at school and you acted to correct it. It maybe didn't "work" on the first try--but you chose to confront it and support the school on the issue. I don't think anyone could ask for better parental involvement.

Cases like the one in this news story are so difficult to gage from the outside. That kid might be a real rotter. You never know--he (it was he--right?) might be the one kid that goes to school and is THE horrible disruptive kid in the class room.

He might also be a perfect kid who has a really shitty teacher with a habit of targeting ONE kid in the class. Shoot, this might be the ONE teacher who is just dedicated to making kids' lives a living hell--ya just don't know.

My kid HAD a teacher like that last year and I ended up sitting in the classroom "observing" for a couple of weeks before it finally sank in that I was serious about correcting the problem. Had I listened to that old hag my kid would have been on Ritalin along with half of her class. (Literally, this lady had suggested to at least six other parents of a class of 14 kids that their kids were either learning disabled or AD/HD.)

You can pay for tuition to a private school or go public--either way, your kid gets as good of an education as YOU--the parent--are able and willing to fight for.


Laura

"You can pay for tuition to a private school or go public--either way, your kid gets as good of an education as YOU--the parent--are able and willing to fight for."

:hi:

RL

I have problems with the administrator on more levels that you might imagine. His actions are indicative of more than simply being a discipline junkie.

I cannot speak to the "list" you mention. I can say with fair certainty that there is at least a brochure and probably other materials with the school mission statement, discipline policy, educational goals, etc. It is also made clear via the school website that the school is run/sponsored by one particular church.

The sponsorship/religious affiliation of the school alone should be enough to raise the antennae of any responsible parent.

You wouldn't find my children in such a place. Also, having had a fair amount of interaction with folks in Schaumburg and having done business there, I can assure you that it is not a poor or deprived suburb of Chicago. I believe, based upon comments made by residents of the area with whom I've had professional dealings, that the public school system there is well above average for Illinois.

He goes into how being a republican and abusing children go hand in hand, and it will all magically make sense to you in a really twisted way.

but he clearly states many times that everyone has both moral views in their mind. Some might apply the strict father model to their children (by spanking), but be nurturent parents to their co-workers (by being in a union).

clinging to my stereotyped view of republicans as people who beat the bible and their children at every given opportunity. :-)

There's no single document that lists out all the values and outcomes for every situation.

Anyone who has ever been part of a values group over any time will know that. There will ALWAYS be disputes about application, eve among those who profess to share the same values.

The outcome, however, is the same: If an acceptable compromise cannot be negotiated where there IS a difference, the parent must comply or remove the kid from the school, which is precisely what she did.

I don't see the error. We're talking about a Baptist sponsored and run school. Most Baptists I know - and I know quite a few with two Baptist ministers in my family, and, no, I'm not Baptist - take a fairly literal view of scripture.

If I could find my old Strong's Concordance I'd give you the chapter and verse about the parent who spares the rod hates his child. I think it's a euphemism for discipline in general, but my late grandfather, the minister, would tell you that it refers specifically to corporal punishment.

Yes, there will be differences on virtually every level, but one can reasonably assume that a Baptist run school would condone and promote corporal punishment both in and out of the classroom. If there are state laws prohibiting it in the classroom, most will certainly ask the parent to administer it at home for in class issues in order to "save that poor child from Hell."

Live with some hardcore baptists for a while and you'll see the truth of it.

one can reasonably assume that a Baptist run school would condone and promote corporal punishment both in and out of the classroom.

There is a difference between condoning or promoting and requiring. The mother thought the school would be a good place for her son, but dealt with changing reality as it was presented. I don't think that makes her an idiot.

sometimes is here. On SOOOO many threads multiple posters miss KEY points of the articles posted.

Sigh...

(hate to sound schoolmarm-ish, but it happens over and over and over again...)

Private/Public school does it really make a difference? if someone told me to spank my child or else my child would be suspended I would be raising hell. It is my choice on how I discipline my children not a private school, not a public school.

Sounds like you have a high opinion of your wife.......

to hit people? What are these little folks learning from a "spanking", anyway? It's OK to use physical force provided the "hitter" is bigger and has more authority than the "hittee"? What goes through the mind of a child when he's hit by a parent? "Ouch, that hurt...OK, it doesn't hurt anymore...does mommy still love me?...why did she do that?...guess it's OK to hit people because mommy hit me...when I see someone do something wrong, I'm gonna hit them just like mommy does..."
Sorry, my "moral values" say no in any circumstance, and I applaud the mother who stood up to the school administration. There are more effective ways to punish. Take the gameboy away. Turn off the TV. Make them apologize. Heck, teach them not to chew gum in school or else you will take the gameboy etc.
IMO, It is not OK to hit children or anyone else.

exceptable means of settling problems.

I have never spanked my kids and both are well behaved kids--10 and 13. Striking someone should only be done in defense. WHY people think it's ok for a big person to wail on a little person is beyond me. Using physical force against someone less your size, is cowardly.

I saw a woman recently in the mall who yelled out to her toddler, AS SHE HIT HIM on the leg, "don't hit." That kid was confused as hell.

It takes more patience and skill to teach children rather than hit them and instill a fear to obey authority, I suppose that's why some resort to hitting.

their child, it is sometimes necessary. "Take the gameboy away" or "turn off the TV" does not work on every child. i do spank my children when i deem it necessary. i then send them to their room and go somewhere quiet myself (the old "this hurts me more than it hurts you" is putting mildly when i have to spank). i've cried because i've had to spank. after a few minutes, i go back into the room and fully explain why this happened. i hold my child and tell them how much it breaks my heart to do that and please, for both of us, don't let it come to that again (they are also forwarned at least twice before this happens). i have two children 10 and 11 years old. the best behaved and loving children you could ever meet. i do believe not spanking can be worse than spanking.

You sound like you are taking the talking points from my old psychology professor, Dr. Mike Marshall's book, "Why Spanking Doesn't Work." That is to say, good points! If anyone here is interested, it is an excellent indictment of the rationale behind spanking. He also examines potential psychological harm cause by spanking, although I think he takes it a bit too far with his assertion that spanking can cause sexual fixation on the buttocks.

MojoXN

to modify a child's behavior needs to go back to those child psych classes he slept through and passed somebody else's term paper into and pay attention.

It's often easier for a stranger to modify a kid's behavior. They know how mom and dad are going to react and what they can get away with; strangers are an unknown quantity and the kids often err on the side of prudence.

I know. I worked retail. One "Stop doing that, this isn't yours" would send the most truculent brat sobbing into Mommy's skirts.

It would never have occurred to me to smack any of them, although I did have an active fantasy life from time to time. Cages always figured much more prominently than violence.

The mother should have done more research regarding this school before putting her kid there.

I don't agree with the school but imagine if the Bushistas have their way and all we have is private schools like this...?

I mostly see people saying the rules they have our stupid and the mother was right to reject them.

which is what is happening in this thread. The posters in this thread aren't calling for the school to be closed or the right to run the school as they see fit to be restricted.

They are simply agreeing with the mother's actions, arguing that it was a poor/stupid decision by the administrator, and pointing out more evidence of the harshness of such conservative christian dogma.

chewing gum, bringing toys to class and finishing scholwork is all the moms job, not the teacher, and if the mom allowed, says a whole hell of a lot about this situation

so as a teacher parent, my child did this, i would frisk him at the door make sure he doesnt have gum and toys and leave him after school to do the homework. another example of a teacher havng to do the moms job

and the assit principle, i say big thumbs up. and if i were the childs mom, and this assit principle said this to me, i would back the employee and either take the spanking, (no) or the suspension. and then the child would be living in hell that week. schoolwork up the ass. chores. and not a whole lot of fun. not to mention a letter of apology to the classroom and principle. further using the time to work on his handwriting skills

so if you think i would get riled about this as a parent, i would use it to the max for this 1st grader to understand, go to school there are rules, follow them and be respectful to teacher and do the damn work. nothing less acceptable

a failing district in CA. The things this kid is doing is age appropriate. They should be stopped, of course, but they aren't so completly out of the norm to warrent such drastic measures. This is what kids that age do. You deal with it in reasonable ways. Missed recesses where the child completes the homework. Toys taken and not returned until the end of the year. Chewing gum is a missed recess or missed fun class activity. Time outs, letters of apology, behavior records, this kind of thing, where the child learns responsibilty and can earn praise when they succeed in breaking the bad behaviors.

I've also taught in private Catholic schools. This same behavior happened, and you know what, I applied the same behavior modifications. A child that age usually wants to be sucessful. It takes patience, and with some kids, it could take longer than anticipated, but to go to such extremes over age-appropriate begaviors is quite worrisome indeed.

Horray for Mom. SHe ade the best choice in pulling him from such a power-hungry and stiffling environment.

Chattahochee Florida. I don't remember my 3rd grade teacher ever spanking the fews months I spent the 3rd grade there. In any event, I looked up the school "grade report" on that elementary school not long ago and it was still failing.

Do I think spanking in school worked for me? Not really, but my mother employed the slap on the wrists and I think that that conditioned me quite well.

a public school. If a school has the word Christian in it, then I'm not surprised.

A 6-year-old boy who often talked too much in class was suspended from 1st grade at Schaumburg Christian School last week after his mother refused to spank him.

Chandler Scott Fallaw, a rambunctious boy, had been piling up disciplinary notes for talking, chewing gum, bringing toys to class and not finishing classwork, said his mother, Michelle Fallaw-Gabrielson. "By no means is my child perfect," she acknowledged.
...
When she arrived to pick up Chandler, she said, assistant administrator Linda Moreau told her the school needed assurances that the boy would be disciplined. "She said, `Either he gets a spanking before he leaves today, or I'm suspending him,'" Fallaw-Gabrielson recalled.

She said she refused to spank her son and left with the assistant administrator calling after her: "You know he's suspended, and that's a very serious matter on his record."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0503060429mar06,1,4211570.story?coll=chi-news-hed

This policy is in the school's handbook, but one can imagine a parent *might* think they'd be able to avoid or negotiate around this sort of showdown.

Voucher programs were introduced recently, so the state would help pay (at the expense of schools that don't force parents to spank) to send kids in Chicago to schools with policies like this.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dsnews/161nd6.htm

we hear only from the angry parent and not from the school.

I am not condoning any school telling a parent to spank their child. I am just sick and tired of all these bad school/bad teacher stories. They really don't help improve schools, now do they? If you are really interested in that topic, check out the education forum on DU. There are some excellent articles there.

The dispute is on the method of discipline.

One of my mother's jr high students slipped a mickey into her coffee when her back was turned, but we wouldn't even have insisted that HE be hit.

This is about the method of discipline.

I have known of many teachers and administrators who have told parents their kid needs a spanking.

We are absolutely inundated with parents these days who are kids themselves. So the schools have had to become involved in parent education. I can't even count the number of times a parent has looked at me and said "What should I do about this?" or "I wish I knew how to make him mind." I always tell them that my mother in law used to say there is a reason God made mommies and daddies bigger than little girls and little boys. Then I encourage them to get counseling for themselves and their child.

One of my students last week attacked his mother who had come to school to pick him up after he was suspended (He said "don't fuck with me, bitch" to a teacher who was correcting him) His mom started to get after him and he started hitting and kicking her. He had to be restrained. He is 11 years old and it may be too late to teach him to respect his elders. But if he had learned that lesson at age 6, I doubt he would be cursing at teachers or attacking his mother.

Do we have to teach kids to respect adults by hitting them? NO. I only spanked mine when they were very little. By the time they were old enough to start school, they were long past spanking age. And neither one of them ever got suspended or even in very much trouble at school. So I know kids can be raised right and can be sent to school knowing how to behave. But these days, a lot of parents don't know that.

This is a very fundie xtian school...not a public school. This place has had a dubious reputation in the area for a long time and many of the "students" come from outside the immediate area.

Many of these kids, or their parents, get tired of the restrictive nature of this school and then bring them into the public schools where these kids have a difficult time adjusting. If they do graduate, many don't have the proper credits or classes to get into a major university...some end up at the local J.C. and drift off to lower-rung jobs. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Hopefully the Illinois DCFS is on this case as there's definite violations of state laws and this coven of future Falwells will be closed down.

I drive past the place...it started with a little storefront and now it looks like a Bingo parlor. You can almost smell the bad hair gunk as you pass by. What attracts people to these places is beyond me.

So are many others on the staff (I just browsed through the website).
All pastors are male - no surprise there, considering.

Looks like ULTRA-conservative. Is this reflective of Schaumberg overall? (All I know there is what I've seen on the interstate, plus the mall.) A conservative response to Willow Creek (as if that weren't conservative enough!)?

I got a kick out of this, though: "Pastor Josh Plonk, Children and Bus Pastor"

I didn't bother to check the website...driving past that bingo parlor (it once was a lovely public library) that is their coven is bad enough. Many of their members aren't from the local area, but from the more religious, CONservative lands of DuPage County (Henry Hyde & Dennis Hastert-land). The outrage and ridicule in this area already is coming out...it'll be fun to see how this plays over the week as the Chicago media is sure to have fun with this.

Our area is blue and turning bluer by the election. We just elected Melissa Bean to Congress...the first Democrat in this area in my memory (25 years) and we're benefiting from more and more city folks moving out here and bringing their Democratic voting records with them.

Willow Creek isn't as fundie as this Church. I know many "Sunday Xtians" who go there...and for the size and membership of the place, it pretty much keeps to itself.

Now WTF is a Children & Bus Pastor? Does he alternate?

re: Willow Creek. I visited there once (and promptly ended up in the hospital 2 days later - but that's another story). They are theologically conservative, but leaning more evangelical than fundamentalist. The place looked more like a mall than a church (complete with its own food court).

re: Church & Bus Pastor. First I ever heard of such a thing. Maybe he drives the bus to pick up the kids for Sunday School. Maybe he coordinates the scheduling. Maybe he lays hands on busses which have broken down on the roadside (kind of a "good samaritan ministry")?

Fundies use the term "pastor" loosely. Not everyone called pastor is ordained, or has theological training. I personally find that misleading.

Thanks for your posts...couple of thoughts:

I've lived in this area for 25 years and traveled in and around for 10 years before that. This place started as a little storefront for a "chapel" and a trailer for a school.

My wife reminds me about 10 years ago, the school was investigated and nearly closed down by the state for numerous health care violations (she worked at a child care facility nearby...heard the stories from the investigators themselves).

The word is some strings were pulled downstate in Springfield (the Repugnicans were in control then) and soon money flowed in for the church to buy the old Schaumburg library and turn it into a gawdy eyesore.

Overall this area is pretty sane...the fundies stay in their covens. Most of the other congregations in the area are moderate and more along the lines of the neighborhood church rather than a lifestyle.

Re: Willow Creek. That started in a storefront, too...the Willow Creek Theater (the church is now on Poplar Creek) and is almost like an amusement park now. They're in their own world, so they really don't bother the locals and I know several people who attend there since it's non-demoninational...Xtianity of convenience.

My daughter's high school graduation was held in there...in one of two massive auditoriums (they easily hold 3,000 people) with high tech video system and more speakers in the ceilings than the nearby IMAX. I strolled around, and yes, it is "fundamentalist" for the real devout, but I sensed that this was more a congregation driven by size and money than theology...kinda like Robert Schuller's operation.

Cheers from Chicago

My brother attends their "leadership conferences." Sigh. He's a repuke, living in PA. But he's adapted their stuff to be more mainstread Methodist. The seeker services really do appeal to a lot of people. His services are more contemporary than seeker-friendly.

Glad to hear Schaumberg is still blue. Keep up the good fight! :)

Being I'm not Christian, I can't relate to the message, but I've seen how the community and "glitz" can be very appealing. I've seen Schueler's act on TV (I'm surprised Willow Creek does no TV...not even local cable) and I don't find the man's messages offensive in the least...and no wonder so many Jews and others became members and supporters of his.

Overall, Willow Creek is a good neighbor and I've found Methodists and Lutherans to be the most open-minded of demoninations. The people I know who go there really don't talk about it...I guess many of us coming from Chicago, where each neighborhood had many groups mixing, we've learned to co-exist...thus the fundies have troubles making inroads.

Well, our hopes is to hold our gains and build. There's a lot of frustrated "purple" Repugnicans we were able to reach last year and I'm sure this is the case in many areas around the country that could have made a difference in the election...but that's another post for another day...LOL.

administrator? :spank:

In the 40 years my parents taught, and the many many years that I have taught, neither of us ever hit a child, nor ever suggested that a parent hit their child... gross! :puke:

Why should they tell her how to parent her child? Why should the school make her spank her little boy? There are other ways to parent kids I'm sure that are effective. That was not their place! I hope they sue that school or take some action! What a joke!

they can beat their children
__________and then they can beat their children

________________and then ..... oh well.....

:(

Sick ass @#!*.

As the second oldest of 16 children....I have to say that in my experience spanking is not neccessary. I was never beat...and I never beat my children. Offering choices to a child is very effective when done properly. All spanking does is continue the cycle of abuse.

My wife has taught pre-school and elementary school for over twenty years and NEVER has ever had the need to beat a child into submission. Those that using beatings to "teach" a child only are teaching them to beat their children.

I sometimes wonder how man has made it this far....jeeze.

:wow:

RL

he had one of his ears pierced. He was 7 and wanted to be like his cousin (who happens to be his hero) so my husband took him to have it done. the principle saw it and called us into his office for a lecture.

He told us that pierced ears was not an appropriate image that their fine upstanding christian school wanted to portray. I asked the principle if thought Jesus would turn his back on him if he ran into my son on the street and saw his pierced ear? He was flabberghasted.

it was in the school my boys went to. a christian school. there were many things i didnt agree with. if i wanted the academics, and yes, secure enviroment, then i had to accept these things. wasnt about the school changing for me. it was my choice putting these boys here. when it got to the point where i thought there was more damage than good i pulled kids out and put them in public

are we after the school because it is a christian school. because personally, i am seeing a mother that isnt taking responsibility for little billy and allowing him to become victim instead of owning his misbehavior. this has been surprising for me, reading this thread. personally i think little billy should have been disciplined if he was unwilling to follow rules and mom confronted if she wasnt willing to correct billy's misbehavior

being raised attending parochial schools all my life, I saw kids paddled - one for having a "Beatles" haircut which he was told to get cut and didn't. When your kids go to these schools, they know that spanking is a possibility and so does the parent.

But at 6 years old, there are other ways of getting their attention than spanking, such as him sitting all day in the principal's office doing his work, forced to be silent and alone. Missing a class outing, etc. In this case, if the mother had a problem with spanking, she should have sat down with the teachers/admin and come up with an alternative but instead, she's chosen the easy way out. This isn't doing her kid any favors.

they hired a new headmaster after my son began attending. I did not choose the school because it was a "christian" school. I chose the school because I liked the previous headmaster and his wife and because we live in an substandard public school district.

I don't think people need to spank to dicipline their children. I have never struck my child and he will be 12 soon. How would I be able to teach my children that hitting people is inappropriate behaviour if I were to use spanking/beating/slapping them as a form of dicipline?

with my superintendent. me interviewing him as much as the other way around. when paddling was brought up, i clearly told him no one touches my child but me. he understood and totally agreed, and respected my position

i sent my kids to this school, not because of religion, but the academics were the highest in town. and texas, where bush had already gotten his hands on public schools, i didnt want them in the mess.

my thought here though, just from what i read, i dont see the school being extreme, i see the parent being extreme in behavior. why would she not give this to child. they did not spank him, they gave an option. not everyone feels as you do about spanking. some kids prefer a spanking as punishment to get it done and over with. not getting into issue of spanking cause it wasnt done

i just do not see the school as the one unreasonable. i see the mom as the issue

further, if we want to talk about the bad in fundie school and bush and baptist agenda to have these schools sweep across the nation taking over public, i can go there. talk about how they are culting the kids, i understand, we participated for 6 years

i just dont stand on the side of the mother and against school on this one

if the woman agreed to the condition of coming to school and spanking her child when the the school personell couldn't handle the situation non-violently upon enrollment, She should have spanked him on the spot or taken her child out.

if i saw it was an issue with child. and that the school was trying to take care of disciplinary behavior, i would take the week, and work the kids tush of, in such love and grace. i am that good. i can do that. and that kid would have all make up work, and work to stay current. and while i was teaching that boy for that week, i would be encouraging and loving and demanding and rewarding and teaching. and i would have the boy write a letter of apology to the school and the class. using his writing skills as extra homework, for a week out of school

and i would turn a bad to a good. i would walk it in the higher. i see it an higher in all things..........for me, this is pretty simple

if i thought it was environment and this not the best place for my child. i would leave.

which i eventually did with boys schools

I guess the bible they use at that School eliminated Matthew 5:39/Luke 6:29 (it was actually in there twice)

because of their behavior. keep them out of restaurants. this is exactly an example of a parent not parenting and teaching their child to be respectful and follow rules.........and yawl all supporting the mother. wtf..............

you want an out of control child in the restaurant. it isnt going to be the child that is poor and abused and not educated (he has been beaten to submission, gonna use manners and keep mouth shut), it is going to be this little shit. and you all say, oh poor baby,.......f****** as you gasp at his behavior in the restaurant, throwing fits and bouncing nouncy balls.

if i parented like that a wow,..........on these 12, 9 and 7 year olds, i would have.
whats up here.

that is work that needs to be done at HOME. where the mama is. so i at least want to ask, we are in spring. how long this issue no homework. what are the grades. is he flunking. after all we are coming to end of school year. could there possibly be an issue in this womans home. i would hope, we would ask least ask our selves these question, in judgement.

if my first grader, i have one. is not doing his work. he gets in trouble. each and every time. thats it. no more. no ifs, ands, or buts....or butts

According to the article, she does discipline her child, but she does it through time outs, taking away toys, etc. She just doesn't spank. So by refusing to spank, she's "not parenting"?

but she also says kid not perfect. so toys were getting thru. (didnt with my boys). kid was getting gum. well i have control over gum in house. (my kid never had gum in class). missing homework. well, her job. whatever, it wasnt working huh

i am not making that up. unless, we are saying the school is lying and they are totally picking on this kid. now this i havent experienced with boys, but could be

just a story by a woman. that is all i hear. and not much. and a lot of what she says, is not what i would be doing wit kids. she has every right. hers to do. but i wont make her victim, tell i think she is. nor the kid

I just don't get where that assumption comes from. Nobody here is making her a victim, either, they are simply saying that she did the right thing by taking seriously her parental responsibility to determine the discipline for her own child, rather than succumb to the demands of authority that she discipline the child in a manner she doesn't believe in.

What of what she says would you not be doing with children? time out? removing privileges?

hooray. that is a good thing. they said spanking and done, or a week out. she was given the choice.

why did it get to this point. i havent had to make that choice with my kids. and they were in a fundamentalist school. how come.

i simply place these issues in parent lap
toys in school
gum in school
no homework

my view and experience is if this was hapening she wasnt doing her job. she made it harder for teacher to teach the boy because she didnt do her job. just not how i walk life. i like to help the teacher and encourage teacher to have a positive experience in teaching my children. i find that more productive and helpful for my child. my children wouldnt have toys, or gum, and they do there homeowrk

cant get more clear.

really, am i so off. cause seems simple to me

just as you chose to take your kids out of the school when you determined the environment was no longer conducive to their best intereste. I have no idea what the circumstances of that were, just as we have very little idea what all the details are here. But you've chosen to condemn the mother. I just don't get it.

My wife teaches elementary school. Some of her kids have had severe emotional problems. Some of her kids have had behavioral problems that were obviously the result of things going on (or not going on) at home. Of course, she has also had good kids who occasionally didn't complete an assignment or who had a hard time keeping their mouth shut. Those problems she deals with, and they are common, everyday problems that no teacher would ever expect to get through a year without confronting. Not every kid who ever chewed gum in school was a bad kid or had bad parents.

Good parenting isn't a function of whether your kid has gum at school, but rather a function of how you deal with a kid having gum at school. After all, there are all kinds of ways for a kid to get gum to school without a parent's knowledge, and all kids are going to misbehave in one way or another. These things happen, and then teachers and (good) parents deal with them. You've arbitrarily decided that (a) she didn't deal with them at all and (b) she's a bad mother for removing her child from the environment in order to stand by her principles, rather than discipline the child in a way she didn't believe in.

You seem to want to thnk the best of the parent and the student and the worst of the school! Sorry reading teh story just seems to me that if you place teh blame on both ends in kind the parent is teh most acountable for the child , that's that! this kid I'm sure did more that chit-chat and chew gum to get a full week supention! Wake up and smell the chalk !

which seems natural, since we don't really know what happened b/w mother and child in terms of alternate discipline methods. And I don't think the worst of the school, I just think it's reasonable for a parent who doesn't believe in spanking to remove her kid from a private school that threatened the kid with suspension if she didn't spank him. Am I wrong there?

Clearly her values were not as compatible with those of the school as she once believed them to be, so she is right to put him in a new situation. Now, maybe she has no control over her kid. Maybe she doesn't discipline him at all in any way, and only says that she does. Hell, maybe she actually instructs the kid to ignore the rules and buys him gum to take to the school and tells him to blow bubbles in the teacher's face. I don't know. That's why I never said she was a great mother, only that I don't think you can tell she is a bad mother.

But you're right, my wife is a great teacher :D;)

And welcome to DU! :hi:

Do you recommend it personally?

i dont do it. dont need it. see better ways to do the world

but this is one of those things, i trust in fellow man to do. and those that show they cant do they get in trouble. i do not have the same experience and thought in spanking like so many on here. i will support a parents right to spank. as i will a persons right to own a gun. i dont like those either. as i will a gays right to exist. as i do my right to smoke and keep children, or not fasten their seatbelt.

but this woman, (no one loses right with child body today) was given a choice. this is all. spank or take him away for a week. they were serious darn it. they want the kid to behave. if they are the monsters everyone has created them to be, they would have spanked before she got there. they had the legal right. (I believe?)

Which is to find a decent school. Most of the ministers for the parent church were educated at Bob Jones University.

Posters who know the area say that the public schools are pretty good. I believe this mother needs to KEEP her child out of the clutches of these fools.

that doesnt do homework, chews gum in class, brings toys to class, and talks thru out class.............in their class. and it will become this teachers job, to deal with it

you right. lots of choices out there. cool

i just dont talk about people this way
these fools
decent school.

i dont have the information on those allegation. i am only talking the event i read above. my experience in fundamentalists, i did not experience, your implications of school. there are certainly other areas i had issue with school. and that is the parents decision. also

And he'll be better off elsewhere.

This is THE tagline for the school in question:


'More than conquerors' ?

http://www.bethelministries.org/scs.html

And here is a spelling lesson (note the word being circled):

but I supose it may depend on the kid. Seems I had heard that spanking teaches kids to solve problems with violence. Do we want to turn this kid into another George Bush?

ya. bah hahahahahaha

According to a meta-analysis of numerous studies, spanking has a strong correlation with immediate compliance in behavior. On the other hand, it also has correlations with increased aggressive and anti-social behavior, growing up to abuse one's own children or spouse, and mental health problems. According to the APA, a lot of it does depend, not on the child, but on how it is administered.

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

not work. Their are some Fundamentalist Christian's like Dobson and Focus on the Family that say it works but their research is not research it's crap. Think about what the world "Discipline" means. It means "To Teach". If an Adult was doing something wrong would you use violence to "teach" them or would you use some other form of discipline that would help them understand their actions? Spanking is considered a cop out by most psychologists who have extensively researched it. The parent does not want to take the time to do what needs to be done to teach the kid what he needs to be taught about what he/she did. So instead they spank the kid for a quick fix to the problem which may work to some extent but not as good as many other forms of discipline and could lead to long term mental problems not to mention sends the kid the wrong message on how to deal with the world. Through physical violence instead of real meaningful discipline.

However, to dismiss spanking is also a tool of bad samples, rarely are proper follow ups done of the non-spanked for fair comparison.

http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=par_discipline_3questions.xml§ion=Parenting&subsection=Discipline

He says many parents disagree with him and he does give some pro's to spanking but does not recommend it. He says if you are going to spank it should be done with certain guidelines.

aggressive individuals tend to do aggressive things regardless of correction. As far as the "adult side effects" Look up the complete correlation of people who exhibit aggressive behavior. Many studies are at a loss to explain people who weren't spanked and abuse others and their kids. The spanking/ violence thing is one of those empty correlations. You might as well ban Ice Cream on the grounds that when ice cream sales go up so do the number of youth drownings! (think about it)

studies show it's not worth taking the risk. Spanking is simply laziness on the side of the parent. Their are many much better ways to discipline (teach) a child than with simple violence.

This is one of the things about the left that gets me at times, "the refusal to accept personal responsibility for actions taken". This kids behavior is obviously disturbing class and the learning environment of others. It's clear that simple demerits and notes home are not deterring unwanted behavior! In addition the kid was not doing his school work at what point do you start firmer correction? Is spanking needed I don't know?
What I do know is that my mama (A strong black woman, mother of three in south) did not PLAY! If a note came home I got punished if they kept coming home a spanking was on the way as she would often say "A hard head makes a soft behind". I respected and feared my mother's wrath but for it, I've never been to jail, never, never had a DUI, got my degree and never got anything less than a C. I have a younger sister graduating from MIT this spring and a little brother still in school doing well. I grew up where I went to funerals of friends who in many cases just needed people around them to set real limits and didn't learn respect for others or them selfs. I hate to say it but most of you a cheering a bad parent and scolding a honest School admin.

Not "regular" Fundamentalists--I live in Texas & don't find these people exotic. But most of the ministers at the parent church spent time at Bob Jones University. They're pretty extreme.

The mother needs to find a better school, with teachers & administrators who can work with her. He's a first grader!

My brother and I use to be proud of ourselves every time we got spanked and research has shown that it teaches kids to solve problems with violence. For kids who are easily disciplined spanking might work but for kids who are rebellious to begin with it probably makes the kid worse. Their are many different ways to discipline kids without using physical force. However, I agree with you that people need to take responsibility for their kids and discipline them. I think most people her agree with that. I don't know all the specifics to this but if the Mom never disciplined her child then she is probably more to blame than the school.

Clearly it was a choice, to suspension. You can have 1 or 2 she took 2. Nuff said about all that however, from what people are posting the fact that spanking was even given as an option seems to offend! This to me shows a lack of really understanding the culture of the school the parent choose to send the child to, and a lack of respect for there traditions. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" may not work for you but I know many people that live and die by it. Also, that research on spanking is a mixed bag and if you look at contradicting data (studies that show spanking successful) the results are really no real change case to case for good or bad on both sides.

on the side of spanking? I did a search on "Does spanking work" and 9 out of 10 of the articles said their were much better options for discipline than spanking. I don't doubt that it may work with some kids because anything will work with some kids but I think for the more rebellious kids who are stubborn it backfires. I have a nephew who is stubborn and my sister (a fundamentalist Christian who loves Dobson) use to spank him constantly and now he is a total mess not to mention very violent and aggressive.

I got spanked as a child rarely but I was the type of kid who didn't need much discipline. It wouldn't have mattered if I was yelled at or spanked I would have straightened up. Spanking was reserved for only the very worst things my brother and I did but my parents now say if they did it over again they would not have spanked at all. They believe using spanking is laziness on the side of the parent.

As I have stated spanking is not the only way however in some kids it works way better than others. I feel sorry for your sisters kid but his issues seem deeper than spanking. I'm at work and will email you the research on spanking or more importantly the failure of the research to follow up on the Non-spanked (look it up if you have time ). i am a parent an I do not spank, I have been firm with my kids since they were one or so and have never had any issues.

is about to cross the street into traffic or if the kid is about to do something that could lead to his/her physical harm. When a quick very powerful message needs to be sent to the child to really get the message home about what could happen to them. Say the kid is about to run into traffic then the parent grabs them gives them a quick swat and then explains in real detail why they got a swat and it's only because the child is loved and the parent does not want anything to ever happen to him/her. I think my Dad might be right on that one. That would be perhaps the only instance I would do it. If the child never got spanked and then got spanked ONLY for that they would get the point and get it good and know it was only for their own good.

she had a choice., the other was to take kid home, and correct the behavior. putting the ball of discipline in her court

this is the part i am in struggle with. painting school something they are not.

now fundie school there are all kinds of things going on. shoot, the whole religion, to do with where the nation is today. for me there is a whole real story here. but the specific post for me has nothing to do with fundies. has to do with why there are these out of control kids that dont have limits set. and i heard and saw the cheering for this woman. one poster said that the mom should tell the kid, you werent naughty,

that is when i said WHAT

he was too

she had a choice., the other was to take kid home, and correct the behavior. putting the ball of discipline in her court


For all we know, that is what she did. She took the child home and handled the discipline in the way she saw fit. Only you've condemned her for it and assumed, with no evidence (other than, apparently, the words of a poster on this thread), that she didn't bother to correct the behavior at all.

doesnt get any better than that. what more did she want.

the mother may have been the problem here but I don't know all the details on this and what the school administration was like.

to discipline herself she would have taken that week off and taught the child more. above i have n=been much more specific on that 9 day discipline of suspension. she did not chose that. she chose to leave the school. they said you discipline or we do. and she said no, i will go somewhere else

her right

did i ever say she was a bad parent. not like me. i generally dont talk in those words. i could say she is creating son as victim. i could have said she didnt take responsibility for childs misbehavior. i could have said she didnt own her part in making sure son got homework done and didnt have toys in back pack. but i dont think i have ever said she

is a

bad parent.

did i

just not like me. i dont think that way

while the kid was away from school. According to the article, she is home schooling the kid until they move to a new school district in a month. How do you know her plan wasn't to "have taken that week off and taught the child more." You don't. You've assumed. Based on what?

they said you discipline or we do. and she said no, i will go somewhere else

Where did she say no? Where did she say her child didn't need discipline or wasn't being naughty? Nowhere that I know of. You've decided it's the case, though, and will not be dissuaded. If you could only tell me how you reached the conclusion that she didn't discipline her kid at all, and decided to withdraw her son from the school so he wouldn't have to face any consequences, then I might agree with you. Until then, it's just drawing unfounded conclusions.

did i ever say she was a bad parent. not like me.

You're right, you didn't. I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth. I meant only to summarize.

with the school, with the teacher. maybe she had tried in the past. maybe the school is frustrated. maybe they are pissed at something that has nothing to do with this.

we could create a story that she said, time to leave school and i will teach about respect, like you say, yada yada...........those are all things i do not know

i only know, gum toys homework i have always been able to deal with kids. school isnt even a part. the only challenge i have had is talking in class.

that is all i know.

that is all the article said. that is all i am going on. those i point to mom. just do........

more facts i will change my story

on punishment.

WHen I was in 1st grade, my mother sent me to a private Christian school---not so much for the religious aspect (we're a pretty non-religious family), but because the public schools that I would have to go to were just horrendous (this was in South Carolina, btw, in the mid 80's).

When she was considering enrolling me, she got their rules and regulation booklet, and asked them SPECIFICALLY if they practiced corporal punishment--I was never spanked at home and she did not want me spanked at school. THey said "Oh no, we don't believe in spanking children"

Well...that was all a lie. I went to school one day (hot summertime in SC) wearing a sundress---I was PADDLED for that---since good christian girls don't show bare shoulders.

When my mother found out about it, she had a FIT and immmediately contacted the school. THey didn't consider "Paddling" to be the same as "spanking"---as they explained to her, SPANKING involves a hand hitting a child. Paddling, on the other hand, is an OBJECT hitting a child. One is verbotten, the other is okay.

Luckily, this was towards the end of the school year, and I was pulled out post haste and sent to public schools, where I fared fairly well (alot better than I would have if I stayed at the private school, I believe).

So for those who INSIST that the mother didn't do enough research--that's BUNK. These schools are FOR PROFIT. They are NOT going to do anything that may deter any "customers" from seeking their services.

How WOULD the mother have known that they had a pro-spaking (either at the hands of administrators or through insisting parents do it) unless they told her so? How was the mother supposed to know this? I'm sure that since the mother in this story is anti-spanking, she most likely did like my mother did--ASK IF THEY SPANK THEIR STUDENTS. If the administrators said NO (like they told my mother), then why should she doubt them?

I guess if the admin at this school said "No, we don't spank children" they'd technically be telling the truth, since it doesn't seem that THEY (meaning the school) spanks children---they just require that parents do it for them. Equally, in my case, they didn't believe in spanking---but they did believe in Paddling, and didn't see that as the same as spanking NOR did they view it as corporal punishment.

The school is out of line in this instance, and the mother did the right thing by NOT spanking her child AND removing her child from the school.

I just don't see how this mother is to blame for the primitive and absolutely OUT OF LINE behaviour of the school----I mean, spanking because he didn't do his homework, or because he chewed gum in school---PUHLEASE. He's a FIRST GRADER...not a fucking grad student. First graders generally exhibit certain behaviours---such as not doing homework and brining toys to class.

Jesus--if this mother is a bad parent because her kid pocketed toys and played with them in class, then 90% of all parents in this country are equally bad parents and should have their children taken away from them.

BTW---I graduated with honors and am attending nursing school and have a 3.7GPA in all classes, including pre-reqs. I NEVER did homework. EVER. Not in elementary, middle, or high-school. I told my mother I did, and I had good enough grades to get by w/o the homework. To suggest that 1) This child is an abnormality because of his behaviour or that 2) the mother is a bad parent, or lacking in parenting skills because of the way her child behaved is just ignorant. And any parent who thinks that THEIR child is a pure angel 100% of the time, that THEIR child NEVER does anything bad in school, that THEIR child never brings toys or candy or what-not to school (because they police them SO well) is delusional. Children are children and have known since the beginning of time how to 'get one over' on their parents and do things they're not supposed to do.

The mother is NOT at fault here. The child is NOT at fault here. The school was TOTALLY out of line and I Can't believe there are DEFENDERS OF THE SCHOOL on this board.

This is one big Milgram experiment.

It isn't really about the merits of corporal punishment, it's about chain of command. Mom did the right thing, not because corporal punishment is inherently bad (I have three sons and they each require a different style and intensity of discipline) but because no one should delegate matters of conscience to a third party.

The poster who observed that parents should be a little more discriminating when sending their kids to a school which reserves the right to dictate what discipline will be used by parents (shouldn't it be the other way 'round?) was right.

Off-topic: ADD is a very real affliction. It decreases the quality of life of those who suffer from it, and in fact, the drugs used to treat it (of which Ritalin is no longer common) are all stimulants. In my experience, it allowed my older kids to get through their 3rd and 4th grade years with some self-esteem and having learned what students need to know.

Before I had kids, I had the same dismissive stereotype of ADD, but it was not accurate.

The parent s was given a choice and picked supention. They don't deserve cheers or jeers for that. Why on the other hand are we not holding her acountable for her child's actions is beyond me.

We're not holiding her accountable for her first-grader acting like a fucking FIRST GRADER?

PS--here's a clue:

First graders aren't always perfect model citizens.

SOMETIMES they act up in class
SOMETIMES they do things they're not supposed to do.

This kid didn't bring a gun to school. He didn't rape a classmate. He didn't poision his teacher.

He brought candy/gum to class and didn't do his homework.

How, pray tell, is she supposed to be 'accountable' for that? Should we terminate her parental rights? Sterilize her so that she doesn't breed any more heathens?

When I was in 2nd grade, I brought candy to school and handed it out to all my friends. I got in trouble for that. I had to write 100 times "I will not bring candy to school". I wasn't threatened with being spanked. My mother wasn't hauled into Family Court.

Please tell me how this mother should be held 'accountable' for her child's actions, and aside from chopping the arms and legs off of her child, how she could have prevented her child from acting the way that 99% of children in his age group acts?

As hard as this is to believe children can have and be disciplined. This child's behavior is a reflection of the parents training and correction. Children are prone to act out however it is the parents job to ensure that the consequence of such behavior is met so that action of the same kind are not repeated. The parent is responsible for the repeated actions of a first grader. If this was some 15 or 16 year old i would say no but for a first grader, yeah all parent. When you were in second grade you did it once learned and nver did it again. this is repeated behavior.

How, HOW can one punish a child SO PRECISELY as to have the behaviour that is cause for punishment NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN?

You foolishly assume that because I did something wrong in 2nd grade, that I was punished in a manner to never break the rules again.

You're very wrong.

And not just in my case---I think that EVERY PERSON who was ever a child has broken rules not just once, but REPEATEDLY.

Kids are Kids.

I can tell by your posts that you really don't have a clear understanding of psychological or sociological development of children (that's okay--most people don't). However, I'll go ahead and enlighten you---from ages two til about 5 or 6, children are in a psycho-social stage where they test boundaries. THey're becoming more independent and testing boundaries with friends, parents, siblings, etc. They're gaining the skills needed to make independent decisions later in life.

A 2 year old who says "no" to everything isn't being defiant--they're behaving normally for a 2-year old. The 5 year old who starts 10 tasks and finishes none of them isn't being scatterbrained, they're behaving appropriately for their age.

Equally, a first grader (ages 7-8) who misbehaves in school, or at home, isn't being a rowdy 8 year old, he's behaving normally for his age range.

You speak of strong disipline and how the child's behaviour is a reflection of the parent's training---bullshit. A parent can only regulate SO MUCH regarding their child, and they're doing a grave disservice to not only their child, but society, if they try to regulate EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the child's behaviour----why aren't 6 month olds potty trained? Because they're not developed physically or mentally to handle such a task.

Why do 1st and 2nd graders act like little terrors? Because that's what their bodies and brains are programmed to do.

This child wasn't a terror. He wasn't abusing other students or harassing the teacher. He was doing what 7 and 8 year olds do---he saw rules that he didn't think made sense to him, and he broke them. Was it wrong of him to break the rules? ABSOLUTELY. That, however, isn't a reflection of the action or inaction on the part of the parents. Unless that mother had locked him in a basement, he would have exhibited the SAME behaviours in public school, or at home, or at a friends' house. He doesn't need to be suspended from school because of it. He doesn't need to be spanked because of it.

If his behaviour was THAT disruptive to class, then give him detention. Have him sit in the principal's office.

People in this thread seem to quickly forget that a 6 year old isn't a 20 year old, just as a 2 month old isn't an 8 year old. This child is still in the process of growth and development. He will make bad judgements. He will break rules. He will act out and do things that "good" children shouldn't do. That doesn't mean he's wrong, or bad, or ill-behaved. It doesn't mean the mother is a bad parent, doesnt' disipline well, or isn't doing the job she should be doing.

The punishment that was suggested FAR outweighed the 'crimes' this boy committed. To suggest that the child, and by default the parent as well, are lacking in disipline or behavioural skills is abhorrent.

Read up a bit on childhood social and psychological development. If you feel that what this child did was such a crime as to warrant a spanking OR suspension, then you're advocating that 99% of all children his age should be spanked or suspended on a DAILY BASIS. His behaviour was not so horrible to warrant such punishment, and only someone without a clear understanding of developmental stages would suggest such a thing.

You make a base claim that i don'tunderstand kids yet mine are quite diffrent. In my familly kids didn't do things over and over again. My little girl is a hand full but in public she understand how to follow ruels. Sorry we respected or parents and teachers and were tought to. Oh, well i guess i should hope that peoeple who do not /did not can show me the light :)

tell me, how many hours did it take you to beat obedience into your child to where she NEVER ever ever ever ever does anything you've told her not to do? How many hours is she locked away so that she'll never have the opportunity to do things that you've told her not to do.

As much of an angel you think your child is, I'm sure the reality is quite different.

here's a clue: chances are, you're not around her 24 hours a day. Chances are, she does things you've specifically told her not to do. Chances are, she's done things you've specifically told her not to do on SEVERAL occasions. THe only thing that is a deterrent is getting caught, and that only deters her from doing it the same way next time. The next time she does it, she'll do it in a different manner as to not to get caught.

You've never taken a class in child psychology, have you? God forbid you do---you'll be under the stark impression that 99% of people under age 18 are 'misfits' and you'll understand the fact that 99% of people who are alive (be they children or adults) do the same things over and over again, even when they're told that doing it is bad, or that by doing it they'll get in trouble.

Again, it's strange that you equate bringing candy & gum to school with the child being a 'misfit'.

:shrug:

Never EVER in Life EVER question my kids, EVER :mad: you don't know them they don't post here and as far DU should see them they are angels. They day you read an articles about my little boy or girl being kicked out of school then you can call my parenting into question, clear , good. Me and My wife never "beat" or kids, You teach respect to get respect. This kids constant disrespect of the rules speaks for itself. We just used reward and take away. We praise often and reward for behavior we like, and have never had to do more than "pop" a hand when my youngest thought it would be funny to stick keys in a power socket! The pop was more to stop him than harm him.
:pals:
Now on to your point...
This is a clear case on not getting all the facts, as a DUer you should know better. No school will risk losing a paying family over idle chit-chat or candy (wtf) so this student wasn't just doing a little misbehaving, if so I would agree with you. If we can't hold a child accountable for his or actions (and I don't think you really can) the parent must be held to the fire. As stated if this was a 15 year old I'd see fit to look deeper at the kid and environment however this is a 6 or 7 year old cutting a fool and school. The parent is given a choice and decides to deal with the kid at home. This is the option. 1 or 2. The parent was not SO outraged they pulled there kid out of school or took any action against the school rather knowing their kid took him at of class for a week to deal with him at home.

Spanking doesn't scare all kids , but for a few it's the grand daddy of all parental reaction and those who see that way it's a practical punishment. You may not like so don't do it. However knowing those that do as some how backward or cruel is just as wrong.

beat your kid, or else.

Neither classroom discipline, childhood development nor an appropriate model of citizenship is served by turning parents into servile belt-wielding minions of the school administration.

The 6 year old "child's actions" were chewing gum and taking toys to class. What level of accountability would you apply to that parent for those crimes?

BTW, you don't have kids, do you?

door number one or two, good sir you don't have to like it but it's a choice. Just like the choice of putting her child in that school! Now talking in class, chewing , gum, not doiny your school work hmmm all this to the point that you are faced with being removed from class for a week!!! C'mon MAN just be real, this isn't for being a gum chewer or a chatter box.

firstly you missed the two worst issues in behavior. not doing homework. how much has that effected his academics. is it consistantly not being done. is he behind.

talking in class. means not doing work there either and a disruption for other children getting their work done. is he behind. how are his grades

secondly....beat your kid, (ok, if you want) or else.............or else take him out for a week and convince him to behave your way

turning parents into servile belt-wielding minions of .. they were going to do it for her, so they werent turning her into this

but hey, otherwise you are right on.,

...until I saw that it was a "Christian" school.



I'm soooooo glad to have my kid in a left-leaning, secular PUBLIC school in fruity, nutty, SAN FRANCISCO, where sickos like that can't get their claws into my kid!


My kid's a chatterbox, too, and he has a bit of an attention span problem, but I agree that it's better not to medicate (or beat) kids unless it's absolutely necessary (not beat). I think learning to focus is an important skill that needs to be mastered without drugs. I have a hard time focusing, too. I grew up watching too much TV too, but I make the effort and try to get things done. I don't want an overpriced, side-effects laden pill to fix all my problems for me. And I want as little of my money as possible going to Big Pharma.

Starve'em!

Well, let's hope it's not a mark on his permanent record. You get a black mark on that baby, it never comes off!

So I wonder what the principal would think, because he was advocating breaking civil law, if the parents took him over thier knee and paddled him?

I was afraid, REALLY nervous, my son would be kicked out of pre-school because he was such a little chatterbox and VERY active, but the 1st week of pre-school the administrator told me he LOVED my son. "He is the sweetest little boy! I would take him home with me in a heartbeat!" LOL! Needless to say, I was so relieved that he saw THAT side of my baby. ;) They obviously kept him focused on fun things, occupied his time and he was just like all the other 3 year olds that were there.

Maybe the child is BORED? Maybe he needs to be challenged more? :shrug:

For this administrator to demand this mother spank her child is beyond belief. The mother did the right thing by taking him out of the school. These religious nutjobs need to be stopped in their tracks. :grr:

a fair number of fundie religious schools require parents to consent to the corporal punishment of the student by the teachers as a condition of admittance. At least this one didn't, and they didn't spank the student themselves, instead leaving it up to the parents.

That's the only reason they didn't spank him. Isn't corporal punishment against the law now? How can private schools spank children?

and schools can spank children acting in the parent's place. Private schools can spank children because parents must agree to it (generally in writing) before they can place their children in the school.

With the parent's consent, they most certainly can spank children, and it will withstand attempted litigation.

she says she was spanked as a kid and all it did was lead to her wanting to be spanked during sex as an adult. Maybe many of our fundamentalists like the same.
Maybe spanking should really be reserved for sexual activity.
I didn't find it a deterrant for me or for my children.
We spanked my son one time. He figured it was no big deal. He'd rather take physical punishment and go ahead with his devilment. Being grounded or having privileges taken away was much more of a deterrant. Plus, it just teaches a kid that being bigger and stronger and able to inflict pain is a way to solve a problem. Spanking is just giving up. You've only got pain left as a parenting skill.
My theory? The fundamentalists like spanking for the sexual element.
They seem obsessed. And it's really creepy with children involved.

for failing to instill any kind of discipline in the son...this obviously was no isolated incident of misbehavior, if the kid is just racking up teacher's notes

She needs to find a school that will work with her. According to posters from that area, the Public schools are not bad....

Hypocrites. They'd rather spank the cheek. What child would their jesus strike?

which makes me respect them that much more - they don't just blindly come down on the "left" of every issue.

And the kid was probably being a brat.

Though I must say, MAKING parents spank their children is just simply quaint... sounds like something the Mafia would do.

I have got no problem if a parent wants to whip their child, or their choice not to. I don't believe the school has any authority to tell you how to discipline their childeren.

The child is no longer attending that school.

an earlier thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1641180


Forced spanking or forced psychological testing & treatment.... let no child be left behind.

Sieg Heil!

:cry: