Food for Thought- The South

This republican rule is comprised of the South. Most of the leaders are Southern.

If you follow the history of this country and think of the contributions of the south to our overall progress as a technological power, it fails miserably. The first wave that helped us was the industrial revolution. All during the industrial revolution the south was an agrarian society that used slavery and tenant farming as a means to be competitive. Finally the south started to get industry in the sixties. How did they do it, by promising a workforce of non-union employees(cheap labor). The second wave was the information age. This was located primarily in the west(Silicon Valley) and the east( IBM- NY) and Boston. The south had very little contribution to the second wave. Because they lack the culture that truly respects academic achievement they contributed very little to the overall gains we have enjoyed as a country. Their only contribution has been a "we can do it cheaper mentality"(look at Wal-Mart). I do think the south are good business people(very shrewd) but it has always lacked the foresight to look long term. (By the way, I live in Atlanta and know southern business people very well )

With this in mind, I can't think of any group of people more ill equipped to deal with the complexity of the next hundred years

It's been soooo long since we've had a good South-bashing thread - thank you!!!

Although, in your list of erroneous claims, you forgot to add that we fuck our siblings. Not too late to edit.

thank you!

As for the OP -


Why, whatever are Southerners for but to be ridiculed by superior Yankees!

The rest of the world will thank you for it as this continent descends into civil strife and warfare.

If we are going to lecture China over its anti-secession law (as we are doing today), the U.S. government must practice what it preaches and let self-determination be practiced at home as well.

And why do you hang out with the idiots?

Maybe you should move beyond your Republican pals....

We can win back the South - they are already starting to see the light to some extent. I don't think another civil war is the answer.

Just waking up and being hit by Bush's policies. Some people though will always vote republican though but maybe enough people will be hit b by 2006/2008 to let us take over the House and make things better.

when ppl who obviously have no understading of Southern history pretend that they "understand us". My family is from Atlanta and the surrounding area going back a couple hundred years. My great grandfathers worked in industry before the Depression started. In Atlanta. My grandfather organized three major Teamsters unions in Tn and SC. We have always been Democrats and union members, and I am sick and damned tired of ppl trying to paint all Southerners with same, broad, ill-informed brush. It's completely unproductive. Take that crap somewhere else.

a generalization. I have lived here 30 years. Can you name the great industries started in the south such as the car industry or the electronics industry. The south was an agrarian society for most of the history of this country. For you to dispute this is ridiculous. Furthermore, provide me with a list of the great software innovators that was started in the south.

Besides, everybody has to eat. Food grows on farms.

So, you are saying that the corporate culture, developed by the North, is a good thing? Because, logically, that is what can be inferred from your post.

Guess where all the new auto plants are being built today? Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. are being built in Alabama, Tennessee and other Southern states. Manufacturing is on the upswing in these areas and people are moving in droves from the North to the South for these jobs.

And how's that Silicone Valley lifestyle doing these days?

What exactly is your point?

one again cheap labor.

the best jobs ever in Alabama. 25-30$/hour with excellent health care and benefits and they're driving an M-Class Mercedes around those dusty red roads.

I'm not defending "right to work" policies, but I know people are smart enough to take the damn job and lift themselves out of poverty instead of standing firm on principle by continuing to haul manufactured homes around the state for $8.00/hr.

And once again. Do you think only the South has anti-Union policies?

http://www.uaw.org/about/where/region8.html

I live in Atlanta too - i'm currently reading "what's the matter iwth kansas" by Thomas Frank - i suggest it to you too, because i see a lot of parallels with what Frank has to say about kansas.

n/t

and it's just so much more fun to bash the South than try to understand it, right? But why the hell not? First of all, agrarian society is industry. I dare you come down here and tell any of the farmers I know that they are not involved with industry or innovation. (I would watch how you define their politics too, because my county's committee chair happens to be a farmer.) Agrarian does not equal bad and there have been quite a few innovations in agriculture that have enabled us all to eat and our population to continue to grow. Agrarian society is essential. Would you like us to be dependent on food from some other country? Oh wait, I don't think there is another country or region in the world that can feed us. You might want to rethink that line of thought. You might also want to look up Eli Whitney, George Washington Carver, and Crawford Long. Or for a little more recent innovation you could check out Oak Ridge, the space industry, or Emory. I have several cousins who have worked in research over the years at Oak Ridge, a friend who is literally a rocket scientist in Huntsville, and if wasn't for those redneck, non-innovative doctors at Emory in the 1970's my brother would never have walked. I have another cousin researching (medical) in Gainesville, Fl and my mother fights for the little guy everyday at her firm in Gainesville, Ga. And don't forget our writers, who are cultural icons, I might add--Faulkner, Williams, Lee etc. And politics--Huey Long is a good place to start. There is more to life and innovation than software and electronics and the auto industry, and a successful well adjusted culture would recognize that. But you have already decided that the South is not worth fighting for, right? I can't imagine why I wasting my time typing this.

the south is generally a great place. florida is booming. all the secession BS nonsense has to go. people need to stop painting over the south with a KKK rebel flag brush.

Nice divisive post. Is that your agenda? Mine is to win Congress and the White House. We obviously differ on that.

Plus, your historical analysis is quite lacking.

but I couldn't disagree with you more.

I will give you that the South stubbornly remained an agrarian society when the North was industrializing in the 1800s. But today, especially Atlanta, the South is leading the way along with Silicon Valley in technology.

With that out of the way, yes the Republicans have taken hold of the South. Why? Because they've been quietly laying their foundation while the Southern Democrats grew lazy and complacent. Now we find ourselves in the same situation the Republicans were in for so long here.

The South was the birthplace of the Civil Rights Movement - because it had to be. Things were grievously unjust here and had to change. And like then, things must change now.

My main thought when I read your post was that you're just another whiny, Monday morning arm-chair quarterback who thinks they have all the answers. Well, of course, hindsight is 20/20.

And if you don't think there are people with the complexity to take back the South from the Republicans and usher in a progressive era, then I just don't think you've been looking in the right places.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I just completely disagree with your assessment.

in high tech as a software salesperson. We are not leading in software development in this country. If you look at my original statement I said that the south has lacked the ingenuity for the future. Think of innovation. We may have some good developers down here but this is an idea that was started somewhere else. We are only contributiong as an sfterthought. Innovation is not me too or we can do it cheaper. My argument that the south has never been at the forefront of innovation. When you think of innovation you think of ideas that have not surfaced. Think of the concept of the transistor or the concept of the computer. IBM and HP develop a new patent about every day. Were those companies started in the south?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

So the big inventions came out of the most populated areas that have the largest Universities and Technical schools.

Again, what is your point? So Atlanta didn't invent software. Who gives a fuck? Move to California then. Oh, that's right, you'd have to sell your 3000 sq ft home in Gwinnett County and move into a shitty apartment with bars on the windows in LA.

As would other, non-tech innovators like Mary Kay Ash, Sam Walton and the founders of other big-box stores like Lowes & Home Depot, or (as an amusing diversion) the guys who invented Coke & Pepsi.

While you said that the democrats were lazy I ccntend the single greatest issue why the south has gone republican is the civil rights bill. As LBJ said when he signed the civil rights bill we have lost the south. I beleive the south is lost. We need to focus on the west- specifixally, CO, NM and Nevada.

and I for one say good riddance. And if it's the West you feel that Democrats must concentrate on, then by all means "go west young man."

This mentality is what lost us the 2004 presidential race - concentrate resources in areas you think you can win and ignore entire regions of the country because you can't relate or don't think you can win.

You can't win an election if you don't reach out to the voters and you don't reach out to voters by ignoring them.

But I'll be sure to mention your thoughts to my fellow state committee members next Tuesday when we meet to pull this party out of it's stupor and get it back on track. I got sick of watching the Republicans define me, so I got off my butt and tried to make a difference instead of just complaining about it. Anyone can do that.

You wanna change this state? Then I'll see you at the next Democratic Party meetup. I'd honestly be happy to continue this discussion at one.

The dixiecrat was the number that takes it over the edge to republican. That and the suburban vote that has come down from the north. Go to Dalton and see how many you can convert. I spoke to a plumber from Lawrenceville on vacation in NC. We were very civil. That is the southerner you have lost and your not converting him back They look at the liberal as a wimp. Macho has always been a very big component of the southern male. Think of Nascar and Nashville music. They all wear cowboy hats. None of them are cowboys. Cowboys are from Wyoming and Texas.

As I said before, the Democratic Party of Georgia grew lazy. It took people for granted. I took things for granted too. I never had to get out and work for our cause before. But it got so bad that in 2003, that's just what I did. I worked a presidential campaign, a US Senate campaign and several local races (and had good success with them).

I can't change what goes on on the national level (yet), but I can damn sure form the debate on what goes on on a local level. That's why I ran for and won a seat representing my county on the state committee this past year.

I agree that this state has a serious framing crisis. It's forgotten how to get through to the people who should be voting Democrat. That's why I am involved. Yes, I am a Progressive, but first and foremost, I am a Liberal. I'm proud of that and I want others to be too.

Posts like your original one do not help the conversation. How on earth are we going to convince people who too easily believe what the Republicans are telling them to vote in their own best interest to support us (and help themselves in the process) if we can't put on a united front?

Please understand me when I tell you that I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, if you can't be part of the solution, please try hard not to be part of the problem. Stop badmouthing those of us trying to fix the problem. Thank you.

We have lost the South for a generation, which was true. Assuming that your inclusion of his comment implied a racial component in Southern politics, I'm curious about your explanation for the fact that most, if not all, Southern states have elected African Americans to important political offices since then, while still trending R at the top of the tickets.

You can win on the local level. That is not a statewide vote.

State of Georgia African-American elected officials:
Attorney General Thurbert Baker
Labor Commissioner Michael Thurmond
Public Service Commissioner David Burgess

http://www.georgiaparty.com/officials/state_elected.asp

On edit: I forgot Chief Justice Leah Sears. She survived a nasty campaign against her to win re-election this past year and now she was just named the Chief Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court.

Statewide = Doug Wilder, Ralph Campbell, Henry Frye off the top of my head. Tons of judges, including State Supremes, etc.

...Republican today, and would have made the switch about the same time that his good friend, former Gov. Connally did.

LBJ signed the Civil Rights bill into law purely because of politics. It's extremely doubtful that anyone else alive back then knew more about politics. He knew that he had to have the Black vote in 1968, especially since a disproportionate number of Blacks were being killed and wounded in Vietnam. Additionally, the bulk of the Civil Rights package had been driven by the Kennedy brothers, not LBJ. As it turned out, he chose not to run in 1968 because of the growing opposition to the war.

If anyone continues to believe that LBJ was a good person, perhaps it might help them to know that he considered J. Edgar Hoover to be a good friend. They were known to swap information on various individuals whenever they got together for a drink.

I do agree with you.

"We need to focus on the west- specifixally, CO, NM and Nevada."...

what a defeatest attitude.

What is the purpose of this thread?:shrug:

want to win the House again you can't ignore one area. That doesn't get you anywhere. Look at this last election. Enough said. If Kerry and company didn't ignore the south and just made a few apperances here and there then he could've had more votes that could've won for sure and the outcome could've come out wider then what it did. Even with just one state's electoral college votes.

to deal with the complexity of the next hundred years."

Think a little harder. This is just another racist, bigoted, anti-South rant.

Here's a contribution for you: chew on it awhile. The last three Democratic Presidents have all been from the South. Texas, Georgia, Arkansas. What has the North, East, or West contributed, electorally??

When Democrats stop despising the South, sneering at them, and condescending to them, maybe, just maybe, they can win back some of the votes that used to be solidly Democratic.

$1.75 from the airport to Buckhead.

A comparable ride in Philadelphia would cost $7, and I'd have to change trains.

Wow! Clean, affordable public transport!!! That alone tells me these here Southerners have to have something going for them!

...folks consider Missouri to also be in the South, so I guess Truman could also be from the South, too. The only president I dislike out of that group is LBJ.

What does that say about Democrats...especially those that live in the South?

Here's some food for thought for you...deep-six your divisive crap about the South and move on to more constructive posting.

has ruled the presidency for the last 100 years. They will for the foreseeable future unless we try to capture what I believe is our best strategy, which is the west. Look at the percentages that Bush got. They are overwhelming. In all honesty do you believe we will capture the rural southerner. I sold cash registers to the rural south for 6 years. I sold to places like Rome, Newnan, Villa Rica, Macon, Warner Robins and other rural cities in Ga. My registers are in the Dillard house, Western sizzlin, and other local restaurants. I rarely lost a deal. That being said let's be realistic. If you have traveled to Dalton there is no chance a NE liberal or a person from Ill. will ever get their vote. It is actually sad that southerners will not vote for northerners. If we want to win in '08 we better nominate Mark Warner. Hilary has no chance.

...but that's okay. It's clear that you're on a roll bashing the South and everything and person that lives there.

Have fun...I don't have any more time to waste responding to your crap.

Unless you campaign there and talk to people? Like Howard Dean said: show up and introduce yourself. Show people you really care about them and reach out and find out what policies are important to people. My mother is a republican who voted for John Kerry this time and I told her the rumors of Hillary running in 2008 and she said she'd vote for her.
If she did the same policies as her husband we might just get back on track. According to some republicans I talked to on another board they all voted for Bush because why? They liked him as a person and his religious "moral" values b.s. and he's "one of them." People didn't like John Kerry because he "was married to two rich wives" and all that when Bush himself is rich and born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never had to do a damn thing. Only thing they care about is a canidate they can have a beer with, against abortion and gay marriage and being able to have their guns and Bibles. Some people probably don't even know what Bush's policies are until it's too late. The democrats have to stop letting the republicans talk for them in southern states and come down here themselves.

The democrats have to stop letting the republicans talk for them in southern states and come down here themselves.

You are today's official winner in the Blame the Stupid White Southern People Bashfest.

(Taxes are the sole responsibility of the winner.)

Are you open and honest about your views on politics with your relatives? with your friends?

I was born and raised in Alabama. I had never been north of Atlanta or west of New Orleans until I was 26 years old. I left during the Civil Rights Movement. As far as I know, not one of my MANY relatives supported that movement. In fact, many of my relatives are still angry because I came out against segregation after the Selma march. A couple of years ago, my mother told my niece that the Selma march happened because a lot of black people caused a "fuss."

I have a friend here in California who is also from a large family in Alabama. All of his relatives in Alabama were for Bush in the last election. I am pretty sure the same is true for me. The reason I'm not sure is that I no longer talk politics with my Southern relatives. They have made it clear that I don't "fit in" with the Southern way of thinking.

That would really help turn things around. Then maybe all of those Midwestern state Liberals should evacuate too. Then all the Liberals could just live in California, NY and Vermont. It would be Grand!! We could build walls around those states to keep the rif-raff out. We'd be so happy in our little cocoon.

No one here is deluded into thinking they can change the Fundy-die-hard-racist-vote-R-or-not-vote-at-all crowd's minds. Those are not the people Kerry should have tried to talk to. It's the crowd Dean was CORRECTLY trying to talk to. Those who don't vote at all because they are poor and see no one, not one person in Washington doing anything for them and their plight as working class people. If only 10% of them had voted for Kerry, you would have seen at least two states swing blue.

But keep on blaming us if it makes you feel better.

I do live in Gwinnett county and I do have a 3000 sq. foot house. The northerners who have moved down are republcans. This only added to their now overwhelming numbers.
Southerners going to the republican party has been happening since the civil rights movement. You not changing the suburbs. Roswell has wanted to secede from Fulton county for 20 years. I Have spent a lot of time in Rural south and was very succesful in selling to them. You are just not going to convert them.

South Georgia has very large pockets of Democrats. The entire southwestern corner of the state is Democratic.

http://www.sos.state.ga.us/elections/election_results/default.htm

Just FYI........

the South is not made up of 100% Bush-loving Nazis? Sure, we can all find the deep red pockets of the South that probably won't change. But there are lots of purple counties in the South (wish I still had that groovy map that showed voting by county, not state) and more people in those areas need to be persuaded to VOTE. And to vote against the repukes who have caused the misery in their lives. If they were only approached instead of hated and assumed to be racist, assumed to be against Northerners. Antecdotes are fine. Broad brushes are called stereotypes and serve only one purpose..to further the Neocons agenda of dividing and conquering.

Found that cartogram...

for a long time they had Roy Barnes (a democrat) for a governor but in 2002 they "lost" to a republican guy with Diebold machines. Getting rid of the machines would be a huge plus to winning too. I betcha more republicans voted for Kerry but I remember watching Cliff Arnebeck on the Washington Journal (it's in the cspan.org video archives) and he was convienced the people who hacked Diebold computers switched republican votes for Kerry to Bush.

"But keep on blaming us if it makes you feel better."

I didn't blame you--I just asked an honest question.

I have lived in 3 states since I left Alabama (because my husband joined the Public Health Service). All 3 are blue states, but all 3 now have rotten Republican governors: Romney of Massachusetts, Ehrlich of Maryland, and Arnold of California. I certainly don't think I have escaped political "hell."

And I don't think I am "better" than any other Alabamian. In fact, I still think of myself as an Alabamian.

It's just that the vast majority of whites in Alabama are Bush supporters and I wanted to know how you talk to them about politics, especially if the people are your relatives and you love them.

I live in a very red part of Bama and almost every time I have a political conversation with a stranger I hear something along the lines "I don't like him, but I couldn't vote for Kerry". They didn't feel like they had an alternative. Here at least, mostly they are never going to feel like they have an alternative to Reps., but other less red areas can certainly be changed.

Statements like that remind me of something I heard (in Alabama) when Ike was running for President. "Right man. Wrong party."

I was young then & I don't know what the man meant by that. But I think it was because at that time the Republican party was identified with Lincoln and the freeing of the slaves. Our local paper, which was founded around the Civil War time, was called The Democrat. I am not sure, but I think the title symbolized the fact that the newspaper owner, not surprisingly, identified with the Alabamians who fought against the Republican president.

You may not remember it, but during his first presidential campaign, Ronald Reagan went to a place in Mississippi near where 3 young Civil Rights workers had been murdered in the 60s. Reagan's speech was sympathetic to the whites in that area. That speech helped move white Dems into the Republican column as did other Republican acts.

Now I think that many whites in the South feel that they are betraying their own color if they support a Dem. My closest Southern relatives are bright and well-educated. I think they identify with Republicans primarily because of social class. They thought that Clinton was beneath them socially. They think that Bush is more of their social class. I have other relatives less well educated and less well off who also identify with Republicans. They serve in the military and identify with the macho image that the Republicans project.

Every single person that I have talked to over, say the age of 68, is a Dem. And I think I met them all during 2004 lol. I think a lot of the problem is that ppl tend to associate the Dem party with excesses of the 60's and 70's. (Think sex and drugs.) And of course, then there is abortion, which is just about the single most divisive topic here.

My entire family is full of open-minded Democrats. I talk to any and everyone I can about politics (I know, it's not ladylike, but screw being ladylike...this is war!). How can you gently change someone's mind/help form a positive opinion if you don't talk to them honestly and openly about how you feel?

Most of my relatives were for the Civil Rights Movement but have gradually moved to being Republicans on what they perceive as being fiscal/tax issues (of course, they are wrong!).

I have no problem talking about politics in the South with family or strangers. Even in bars! Haven't been threatened with bodily harm yet!

I've seen my parents transform from Republican swing voters into primarily Democratic voters -- they voted for Gore and then Kerry. When I go have dinner with the family, we discuss all sorts of current issues. We might argue from time to time, but we usually learn something fom one another in the process.

My family knew this last time I was a John Kerry supporter. My uncle asked my dad if he was raising a democrat (half jokingly). My dad's sisters were so Bush supporters. My grandma asked my dad why I was a Kerry fan and his reply was "young people are always against the government." :eyes: I've tried aruging before about politics with family
but I get too emotional and off track. It's hard to be around them knowing they're "the enemy" so to speak. I've given up talking to them about politics and know the only way they'd wake up is if they do their own research like I did and find out the truth about people or they get hit personally or someone they trust does and it leads them to thinking about everything.

or is that just what the Busheviks need FOR us?

Just asking, not accusing anyone specifically.

But who does it benefit when we descend down the rabbit hole into bullshit like this?

He was Southern and a visionary.

is absolutely visionary. I used to wait on him when I was a waiter in Atl. He always had a blonde on his dates and was a good tipper. He is a rare breed.

Were these blondes a lot younger than him?

that Kerry won the South.

He also won the North and the Heartland and the West.

There are no standard Southerners or Northerners. Some people in the South can do Quantum physics; some in the North only know how to farm.

There are true progressives in my little TN community, and bigots from hell in the Upstate NY place where I was born and raised.

Actually, weren't the cotton gin and peanuts researched and developed in the South? How about Ted Turner's cable news station (that everyone said would flop)? More than a few agricultural studies originated and still originate here, as well as studies of animal husbandry and those things useful to folks besides programmers and other techies.

It's fun to lay the burden on someone else's shoulders, but it isn't the truth. We're each to blame - in our own way - for the mess we are in.

Ain't about my pistol
Ain't about my boots
Ain't about no northern drives
Ain't about my southern roots
Ain't about my guitars, ain't about my big old amps
"It ain't rained in weeks, but the weather sure feels damp"
Ain't about excuses or alibis
Ain't about no cotton fields or cotton picking lies
Ain't about the races, the crying shame
To the fucking rich man all poor people look the same

Ain't about no hatred better raise a glass
It's a little about some rebels but it ain't about the past
Ain't about no foolish pride, Ain't about no flag
Hate's the only thing that my truck would want to drag

You think I'm dumb, maybe not too bright
You wonder how I sleep at night
Proud of the glory, stare down the shame
Duality of the southern thing

My Great Great Granddad had a hole in his side
He used to tell the story to the family Christmas night
Got shot at Shiloh, thought he'd die alone
From a Yankee bullet, less than thirty miles from home
Ain't no plantations in my family tree
Did NOT believe in slavery, thought that all men should be free
"But, who are these soldiers marching through my land?"
His bride could hear the cannons and she worried about her man

I heard the story as it was passed down
About guts and glory and Rebel stands
Four generations, a whole lot has changed
Robert E. Lee
Martin Luther King
We've come a long way rising from the flame
Stay out of the way of the Southern thing

Just because a software salesman says so? What, specifically, do you sell?

Have you ever studied--oh, History?

I was a history minor and a political sci minor in college and a business major.

What about art? What about food? What about music? ... Do you like jazz, rock and roll, blues, country, Cajun music? Where do you think it was 'invented' and the industry born?

We certainly do NOT want people running this country who have a limited perspective on the human condition.

With the current job market, you may well be in a position that does not challenge you. Is a change possible?

Here in Houston, we've got vast areas of suburban wasteland & some pretty fine neighborhoods. The "pretty fine" places are not all that expensive, but often more diverse & liberal. Could you make a change there or are you locked in?

If you're really totally depressed--please check out moving to another region. We need people to help the South, not give up in a cloud of despair.

With the current job market, you may well be in a position that does not challenge you. Is a change possible?

Here in Houston, we've got vast areas of suburban wasteland & some pretty fine neighborhoods. The "pretty fine" places are not all that expensive, but often more diverse & liberal. Could you make a change there or are you locked in?

If you're really totally depressed--please check out moving to another region. We need people to help the South, not give up in a cloud of despair.

...of the Fortune 500 are headquartered in the South. I know that a number of these companies are not popular, but don't shoot the messenger:

<http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2004-03-22-fortune-500-list_x.htm>

Out of the top fifty corporations, fourteen are headquartered in the South:

1. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Bentonville, Ark., 1, $258.681
2. Exxon Mobil Corp., Irving, Texas, 3, $213.199
7. ConocoPhillips, Houston, 12, $99.468
13. The Home Depot Inc., Atlanta, 13, $64.816
20. Fannie Mae, Washington, D.C., 16, $53.767
24. Bank of America Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 23, $48.065
31. Dell Inc., Round Rock, Texas, 36, $41.444
33. SBC Communications Inc., San Antonio, 27, $40.843
34. Valero Energy Corp, San Antonio, 55, $37.969
35. Marathon Oil Corp., Houston, 52, $37.137
42. United Parcel Service Inc., Atlanta, 43, $33.485
43. J.C. Penney Co. Inc., Plano, Texas, 42, $32.923
48. Lockheed Martin Corp., Bethesda, Md., 56, $31.844
50. Lowe's Cos. Inc., Mooresville, N.C., 60, $31.263

a company in that group that made a technological breakthrough. I'm sure the oil companies found new and innovative ways to extract oil,that being said the rest are retailers. If you read my original thread I said that the southerner is a good business person. Maryland can draw it's talent from the NE. It is closer to DC and Penn. than it is to Georgia. Let's all be honest. Do you think the south has always respected education. Do they not look at the northern liberal as pointy headed. Stop being defensive and be realistic.

that can be attributed to people all over America. I come from a long line of Southerners, but was raised in Ohio. For every rural, uneducated, racist, anti-intellectual, Alabama hillbilly you can dredge up, I can find you one just like him in Marysville, Ohio.

is between the rural and the urban with the wild card being the suburbs. Most of the suburban families came from strong republican backgrounds and unless they get disgusted with the fundamentalists you will not convert them. Remember a major component of Republican philosophy is greed. Greed is overwhelming and very tough to combat.

is brillant. Highly innovative with complex math behind it. You can always pick out a few. This post was a generalization.

On THAT, we agree. Editing to add that the two I mentioned were just 2 from my area- there are many more.

So, as an Atlantan (???)what do you think about Mike Hoover and Actamed (now part of WebMD)? Lots of innovators down here, as well as our fair share of Nobel winners... and not just in Lit.

what I meant. Research triangle is extremely smart. The concept of computing is quite old. The south had little to do with the original concept. In later years they have contributed. But the real innovation was originally done by the IBM's and the HP's. Dell is just a manufacturer. Anyone who is honest with themselves would agree that the south has always shunned"booksmart" people. That is the culture. The have been 2 great movements in the U.S,. Industrial age and the information age. How much did the south really contribute?

You're right, the South has no respect for education. That's why such top universities as William and Mary, UNC Chapel Hill, Duke University, University of Virgina, Vanderbilt, Emory, Rice University and Agnes Scott are all located... oh wait....

Rice University!

Awesome school. My grandmother, her sister, two of my great great aunts, and my mother all went there. These are/were not a dumb group of ladies!

Arabs, Mexico ... why limit your offensiveness? Because the southerners tend to be Baptists, with a large percentage of whites? Because they lost the Civil War?

Rather than blame the "victim", why not just ask why the south fared so badly?

Slavery: why industrialize when you can breed 'm? Immeasurably hurt the south, and ultimately cost many, many lives.

Heat/humidity: When it's 95 degree and 90% humidity, just lifting the lemonade to your mouth increases sweat from a stream to a torrent.

Disease: Malaria used to be fairly widespread in the south.

The legacy of war and reconstruction. Baltimore used to be a solid part of the south (linguistically, culturally, in terms of trade); after the war, it threw in its lot with the north. Then again, it never went Confederate, and Sherman didn't burn down Fells Point. And dumb northerners always used to look down at the hicks in the south. That kept out capital.

Why's it catching up? Air conditioning, no more malaria, the civil war's far enough in the past that we're pretty much one country now, it's hard to keep blacks as defacto slaves so industrialization is preferred. And once the economy reaches a certain point, it becomes more self-sustaining; an agrarian, largely impoverished area can't sustain much business.

edited to correct scurrilous typos.

if we lost air conditioning the south would have a mass exodus. Do any of you think the southern republican leaders has the interest of the working class in the forefront of their mind.

It raises some of these same points from a historical perspective and talks about the Bush/Enron-style of business which is based on exploitation more than producing of useful products. I'm just a far North yankee, but aren't there differing styles of doing business and is it merely South-bashing to discuss it?

I know there are Northern companies, like Amway, that are similarly parasitic, so maybe discuss it in terms of producers vs. parasites, but still there are historical precedents that show that North and South did used to differ.

Oh flamebait, oh flamebait
Why did I click on you...
Oh flamebait, oh flamebait
You festering pile of poo...

C'mon, sing along!

The premise, predispositions and cultural insensitivity in the OP of this thread sucks so bad it bends light. I think our sun is collapsing.

I fear for progressiveness in the future as well. There are some good republicans but not with the neocons taking over and in power and all that so they, like us, have no voice in anything. They want us all back to the 18th century and to have superpower and control the world (they certainly are trying now). I had someone who was republican claim that the republican party was the party that got rid of slavery in the south and not the north.

There. That covers our last three elected Democratic Presidents.

Boy, they sure are all "ill equipped to deal with the complexity of the next hundred years", 'specially when compared to a jenius like Bush** (New Haven and Kennebunkport, not Crawford) </sarcasm>

They never contributed anything to modern society! :eyes:

:nuke:

Flamebait. Please no broad-brushing of people in regions.