"Preaching the word of Jesus and the gospel of prosperity."

I just heard this on a commercial for Joyce Meyer. WTF is wrong with these people, don't they know Jesus was anti-materialistic? Another thread on here tonight had a quote like that from some fundie "I see nothing wrong with luxury cars or spreading the gospel".

???

Jesus would have told them not to gather material items but seek release from suffering by removing attachments.

PM me for Gmail invites.

"but seek release from sufferig by removing attachments."

It sounds very close to Buddhism, too.

From the Book of Matthew, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:

19
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
through nor steal:
21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal

Sounds like he was teaching impermanence and breaking attachments to material items. Mmmmmm interesting.....

that one twit whose name slips me now who had the 700 Club and thinks he's god's gift to politicians ...oh wait, I mean Pat fecking Robertson.

....on your definition of "prosperity".

I know my Jesus.

Do you know what she's referring to when she speaks of "the gospel of prosperity"?

I sat with rapt attention as she "Played the crowd". Then I went to her website (found some negative data on her out there too). I saw her Estate with 4-5 homes on it. Tons of autos. Kids live near her. It was revolting watching her prance around her stage looking like the CEO of some fortune 500 Co.

I guess I get what her gospel of prosperity means; she puts it right out there in your face.

I can't believe ANYONE would be gullible enough to buy her claptrap. :crazy:

Unbelievable!

I didn't know that.

:eyes:

that enrages me how these freaking swine take money from old people. I think there should be an age cut off.

How does this woman "rob the poor"? Are people threatened in some way if they don't attend her seminars or buy her books? If you have some information that this is taking place, I'd love to see a link.

Look, that whole scene isn't my cup of tea, either. But the people who attend those kinds of events or buy books by people like Joyce Meyer do so of their own free will and they get exactly what they pay for. They're not being ripped off any more than are those who buy CDs from artists whose material I consider to be junk. Hurling accusations like that are pretty lame, under the circumstances.

Oh, and I'd also be interested in knowing what information you have to the effect that Mrs. Meyes' fans are "poor" folks. Again, just a knee jerk characterization with, I suspect, no documentation to back it up.

I said it is a sin to rip off the poor, or in this case the naive/vulnerable, in order to line one's own pocket...ESPECIALLY using GOD as your gimmick.

We are talking about, I thought, "RELIGIOUS" themed events here. One does NOT have to be a rocket scientist to SEE what these types of hucksters do "In the name of God". "Just name it and claim it" like God is one big Magic Lamp of prosperity if you apply the "right formula". How old are you?

I'm not talking about a person gaining wealth by the work of their own hands in the public sector; I'm talking about HUCKSTERS who prey on others using a gimmick.....like on late night tv "Buy homes for no money down" "Buy my video and pills and lose all your weight in one month" blah blah blah....to rake in the dough. In terms of faith, this practice is unethical. Wealth is NOT the message of Christ. Being rich in SPIRIT is.

Guess who is living in the comfort zones when their followers aren't?
*Pat Robertson
*Billy Graham
*James Dobson
*J. Meyers
*Jimmy Swaggart
*James D. Kennedy
*Paul and Jan Crouch
*Benny Hinn

Need I go on? Geeez

Do you know how to become a millionaire? All you need to do is get 25 cents from 4 million people.
I certainly do not have the evidence that those donating to Billy or Joyce are poor, nor have I listened to the message to know whether it has some positive inspirational value. Does it give people hope? Does it make them kinder and more generous?
It is hard for me to see that coming from an "acres of diamonds" sermon, and I do not feel that it is correct to use wealth for luxurious living. But that does not imply that the people are being fleeced and more than people who pay $200 to see Bruce Springsteen in concert are being fleeced. It is their idea of a few hours of entertainment.

It's been a long time since I did a "refresher" course in Bible study..
and those passages are magnificent.

That said, I don't now understand your reply?????

There are many fine ministers who give people hope and that is good but,

AGAIN I'm not talking about good ministers, I'm talking about TV evangelist HUCKSTERS.........what's not to understand in what I said????????

Giving money to Pat Robertson (Iran Contra) or some other huckster who will give you a hanky annointed with oil if you give them a "LOVE OFFERING" for x amount of dollars..WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE POOR LISTENERS is UNETHICAL and NOT biblical at all.

Spending money on Springsteen or Vegas or Disney or a new Car is a private matter having nothing to do with your SPRITUAL HEALTH AND WELL BEING, as the religious Hucksters want you to believe if you give THEM your springsteen dollars. Jeepers! :crazy:

1 Timothy 6:5-10

....the obvious examples.

King David, Solomon?
Or William Jennings Bryan and Superstar Billy Graham?
I am not really impressed with any of them.
Is that an answer to Luke 12:15 or Luke 16: 19-31?
They might find themselves hearing Ezekiel 34:3-4

....any number of exceptionally wealthy Liberals and Democrats who are regularly lionized on these boards.

The fact is that wealth is not the measure of the good or the bad of a human being. The fact that a person is wealthy is not illustrative of what kind of person he or she is at all and it's a shallow way to measure people. It does not automatically follow that because a Christian woman has a lot of money, she is necessarily a bad person who "robs the poor". Joyce Meyer could be a terrible person and guilty of all manner of misdeeds, but the fact that she sells a lot of books or has an expensive home isn't the way to tell about that.

I'm sure if you tried really hard, you could find bible references regarding judging others and the casting of first stones, too.

I look askance at their wealth. It was part of my primary opposition to people like Kerry and Hilary, and it is a flaw in the entire system that only rich and famous people can run and win.
In the 2nd place since we were discussing sin, we were, or should have been, talking about the opinion of Christians, not liberals or DUers, which is not to say that there is no over-lap in the three groups.
True, her luxurious living is perhaps not the ultimate sin, but I find it quite nauseating from one who claims to be preaching the gospel of Jesus. I think Jesus and the scriptures will back me up on that.
Finally, as far as casting stones and judging. In the first place, I was doing neither, merely passing on the judgements of Jesus, Paul, and James. In the 2nd place, the prohibition against judging does not seem to apply to prophets, and it is not really a prohibition as much as a warning, that I will be judged in the same way I judge. I am cool with that since I believe I judge with fairness and mercy.
And simply stating that something is "the fact" is not really a convincing argument, is it? Nor is the derogatory label shallow really proof of anything. If I am measuring in a shallow manner, my quotes show that I am in pretty good company.

wealth"? Where in the bible does it say "follow me and thou shalt have fame and power on earth"? In fact, the bible says something quite different. And if they're on tv, it is extremely likely that they aren't what they portray themselves to be.

I think you will find plenty of democrats and liberals in heaven. The majority of the republicans, usually lionized by the right and who currently call themselves christians are not likely to be there. It all comes down to what is in a person's heart.

And I agree that wealth doesn't necessarily make you a "bad person." It makes you a "sinner," in terms of the Jesus narrative, but back here in "cold, hard reality land," where Jesus really isn't to be found, you can be a decent person and have wealth.

That said, you cannot be a good Christian and have exorbitant wealth.

Very simple distinction.

Of course it's "sinful" to be wealthy. It's "sinful" to be attached to material goods. If people spent one minute thinking about the philosophical brilliance of the Jesus narrative, this would be a no-brainer.

The idea of this narrative is self-deference. Conservative Christians have somehow changed this message to mean "ostracize people socially with Leviticus, and give a bunch of lip service to God on the street corner," but they have no idea of the true narrative of humility, self-deference and submission that underlies this narrative -- it has been with us much longer than the birth of Christ, and shares commonalities with Eastern religions.

This "God loves the Rich" scheme is nothing but a construct, and has nothing to do with Christ. Of course being wealthy is a sin -- Jesus said NUMEROUS times in the Bible that the reward for being detatched to Earthly goods would be admittance to "heaven." A couple of pull quotes that contradict this OVERWHELMINGLY obvious message is nothing more than feel-good bullshit.

At the heart of all religions is deference, sacrifice and detatchment from the material. Unfortunately, people like the shyster preachers of new Dominionism, and their wealthy counterparts have created a religion of Mammon for the gullible, the sinners and the "damned" to feel good about themselves, while on Earth.

... the attitude seems to be that it is a moral failing to be poor, while wealth is the reward for the "deserving" . But this is not what Christ preached:

Matthew Chapter 6, verse 24:
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and
despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

She's ok as proseletizers go.

It's wonderful she is talking about her history of sexual abuse, as does Paula White whom I much prefer but whom I suspect is even more into the prosperity angle than Joyce.

I'm gathering she's talking about money, since that's what she's asking for on her tv specials, even if under the guise of selling something.

edit: one thing I have to add re: Sugarbleus, is, having grown up a fundie I never thought I would see the day when women like Meyers and White would lead worship services to the extent that they do. I long ago left the church, but if I re-work my paradigm a bit, I can remember how it used to be when I was growing up, and really rejoice at how far oppressed fundie women have come, even if they are light years behind mainstream society. Paula White is really moving to me, especially since she talks so openly about sexual abuse and her terrible childhood. If I reach way back, I can reconnect with the little girl inside me who back then so needed women religious leaders to stand up and speak the truth about these things,way back when when I was a fundie, there was nothing and no one but Anita Bryant, and Tammy Faye whom I now love for her lovingness toward gay people put who back then was quite an embarassment.

I'm a FORMER fundie crowding 60 years old. I've SEEN IT ALL.

BELIEVE me, it's all a scam to puff themselves up, set an agenda, AND take your money. I've been to countless "Tent Revivals" when TV wasn't a venue yet with my family as a child. Would have SWORN I saw with my own eyes...MIRACLES happen. I've seen and been "moved" by these hucksters.

There have been many women in the ministry; some good some not so swell. Please don't forget Katherine Kuhlman, Amy Semple McPherson etc etc..

The Baptists and Catholics don't like females in ministry, but CHARISMATICS don't mind at all. Many many female missionaries too.

These people will LIE to you about their experiences just to "move you". Please, please BE WARE.

Who was it that said: 'There's a sucker born every minute'

Christians don't NEED a pep rally by some overinflated huckster; they only need to go into the privacy of their own space and commune with Him one on one. ~Peace~

Yes, I guess women have an equal right now to use religion to rip people off.

But the truth is, it has an effect on the psyche's of young girls no matter how much the church fathers preach the doctrine of submission. I am glad it is happening for these women.


At least they have someone to look to, I didn't.

I'm no longer in that game, but I do appreciate your point about them lying about their experiences. I hadn't thought of that.

I've never been to a real tent revival. I loved reading in Dorothy Allison's books about the gospel singings they'd go to with the men passing around a flask back behind the stage.

I do miss the drug of religion. It's a real entity, that feeling, and it takes up space in the psyche. I've not found anything to fill it up yet, and I've looked.

jdj, I think I know what you feel about the "drug of religion". I miss many things, good things I felt and learned while following..

I was talking about this issue with a politically left group of believers the other day. I was talking about the corruption that has come into so many churches/doctrine. I felt like my faith had died a very sad death and my heart was feeling pretty empty. I went on to say that I still clung to the teachings of Christ and "hoped" that IF there is an afterlife, I'd be able to meet with HIM who loved me so and taught me so much.......

The reply was this:the Holy Spirit is still picketing in your heart and you can never
escape the God of heaven" What a shame that Christianity has been so
corrupted...

AND this:Faith was once defined as something you can't get rid of no matter how hard
we try... because he is a seed - God Himself planted in our human spirit.
He will never leave us or forsake us - no matter where we may be... so take
heart.

jdj, THAT cheered me up. Be well~~~~SB

The conservatives have a bad habit of using an equal sign where it does not belong.

In this case, it is Good Christian = Rich. This implies that everyone who is not rich is somehow morally defective. Gee whiz, that sounds like something a republi-crap would say. Santa Clause then beats the poor with the club of poverty and guilt each Christmas as they cannot afford to buy the presents we have come to believe are necessary to identify ourselves as good, moral, Americans. This is why the weasel wants to spread the gospel world wide. Christianity will translate into profits at Christmas time.

Other mis-uses of the equal sign are:
Democracy = capitalism
Support the troops = Agree with bushtapo policy
King George = good Christian man.

All focus on making your life better, ways you can get more money and more things, and how to help yourself.

Whatever happened to "be good to other people" and "help those in need"?

and found that it was a hard sell, especially to the "me" generation. Besides that, it turns out "those in need" are just lazy, fornicating, drug users. The only help they need is to turn to Jesus and they too will receive the blessings reserved for the faithful. So send your money to me, Al Franken, to keep this gospel message on the air. (note to youngsters and non SNL fans, this was a classic Franken bit on SNL during the "Franken" decade.)(note to all, this is what I figure they believe, not what I believe)

America is the chosen nation, the light of the world, the city on the hill. Our system of government enjoys lasting legitimacy since our Founding Fathers were inspired in a Biblical sense.

Capitalism is the chosen system of America since as Jerry Falwell says, "God is in favor of freedom, property ownership, competition, diligence, work, and acquisition. All this is taught in the Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments."

So with the end of the Cold War we have an America not only victorious and vindicated in an economic and political sense, but in a spiritual sense as well. That Americans are so successful and enjoy such luxury is based on this spiritual legitimacy we enjoy more than anything else.


So, how do we go against such a world-view? For to do so is to go against their god.

This is a religious war, fought with the imagery of religious iconography that is unassailable and impermeable to logic and reason. Folks on the Left best start understanding it a little better.

but, abundance is not quite the same as prosperity in any material sense. The abundance Jesus preached had nothing at all to with material goods and everything to do with doing good to your fellow humans and deepening your spirituality. In fact, the result could be material poverty and physical pain or death. The actual teachings of Jesus are not easy.

wadded balls of excrement.

Bill O'Reichly, Insannity, and Pigboy Pillpopper would excoriate that Limousine Liberal Jesus daily on their ReichsPrapaganda Shows.