Was bush's war initiated with a sucker punch?

According to Merriam Webster...

Sucker punch: to punch (a person) suddenly without warning and often without apparent provocation

Would you call Sept. 11th the sucker punch and Bush's War his drive to reshape the mideast? In that case, yes. Would you call the Iraq War his war and call that a sucker punch? Certainly not. We've been signaling that this was going to happen for a decade.

Do I really need to say that had nothing to do with invading Iraq?

Don't look too deep into my post. It was a thought that came to me and I just "put it out there".

We wouldn't have had Afghanistan if not for 9/11, and if Iraq had gone better, we would have gotten Syria or Iran out of it too.

The War on Terra or Iraq War. I believe Yes to the former, No to the latter.

NEWSFLASH:IRAQ had nutt'n to do with it.


http://images.globalfreepress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

But you'd have to be brain-dead to deny that 9/11 allowed Bush to concentrate on his foreign agenda without domestic resistance.

MIHOP!!!!!!!

IHOP! Waffle House!

When you get a shred of proof beyond hearsay, conjecture, and innuendo, then maybe I'll consider listening to you.

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The one pushed by busholini inc.

Prove THAT one.

The "without apparent provocation" part fits though.

... is something they other guy doesn't see coming.

Saddam certainly knew what was coming.

Not that I am equating the 2, but 9/11, now that was a sucker punch.

Pearl Harbor is another example. A sucker punch is a sneak attack.

:hurts:

Heyo

But wasn't he kind of evasive in the final days as to exactly when he was going to start his war?

Anyway, just chalk this up to random thoughts colliding in that organ that resides in my cranium...I forget what it's called.

ON EDIT: Waitaminnit. Maybe a sucker punch to America, but we can't let Kindasleazy off the hook with that "Osama bin Laded Determined to Strike within US" memo she ignored.

A good example of catching someone off guard. Hell, Bush had half the military lined up for a month ready to go in. Don't you remember? The whole planet knew he was going to swing. Don't know where you are going with this.

Joe Average was caught off-guard, though.

Again, it was just a thought that occurred to me, right or wrong, no big deal, just see where things take you.

Maybe I've been living in BC to long? :shrug:

"Osama intent on flying planes into US skyscrappers" and after receiving said memo, the idiot Condi, has the nerve to say "Who could have thought such a thing could happen?" to which, the obvious answer is, "Anybody who could read could have thought, 'Doctor' Condi!"

we likely had a hand in them.

now it certainly was a SUCKER 'punch' for the folk hooked on M$MW propaganda, that's fer SURE.

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

We didn't.

It was incompetence, not malice.

There's no more story there.

Just wondering why you seem so certain.

Just the same way I'm certain that DU is not actually created by Republicans trying to keep us stuck in an insane echo chamber instead of actually doing something.

Can you disprove that?

Now, all the PNAC guys are in power and we are at war... forever.

Look. Which is a simpler explanation: the CIA and FBI simply didn't understand that this 'threat' was more important and immediate than the hundreds of other 'threats' they had--

Or that there's a massive underground conspiracy that has absolutely no hard evidence other than ramblings and guesswork from anonymous internet conspiracy theorists and that thousands upon thousands across the US government, CIA, FBI, NSA, DoD, Senate, House, Governors, several mayors, and media in not only the United States but in all other nations as well, as well as the massive, chaotic networks of tribal allies and rebel leaders under our emply are all complacent and silent without a single leak.

False dichotomy AND a strawman in one post.

Let me go look at what you constructed in your other post.

one is also able to differentiate one's opinion from the 'strawman.'

Unless you can tell me how any workable 9/11 domestic conspiracy theory does not involve the points I've listed, I'll assume you simply have nothing to fall back on but throwing logic 101 terms at me and hoping I'll give up.

:)

With a trillion dollars worth of spy technologies like Echelon, I do not believe it was purely incompetence. Plus, incompetence and malice are not mutually exclusive.

The NeoCons WANTED it to happen in order to implement their plan. That cannot be refuted.

Its long-term intent was to gain the upper hand in information warfare--such as the type in which we would undoubtedly engage in event of war with China.

And I would WANT Bush to drop dead tomorrow. But if he does, that doesn't mean I did it. Saddam WANTED WMD. That doesn't mean he had a thing.

Do you work for the DoD? Did you work for Poindexter and DARPA?

Do you think the Pentagon uses their electronic toys to listen ONLY to the Chinese or Russians? I don't. I think they use it to snoop on all the OPEC nations and surrounding territories 24/7, and have been doing it since the Bushes married the Bin Ladens, and perhaps before.

Did you read the PNAC master plan. I did, a dozen times as well as the Patriot Act.

I am not convinced by your arguments in this thread.

I have researched quite a bit, and have read neoconservative writings extensively--perhaps more than you. Right now I'm still but a student (U Chicago, birthplace of the modern neoconservative movement and the self-sustained nuclear reaction) double-majoring in International Relations and East Asian Studies - Chinese Concentration, but I have seriously studied American political theory for quite some time now.

Echelon was concieved as the backbone of NSA's China strategy. It certainly has found much use against the mideast--indeed, under Clinton, all intelligence agencies began looking at the Mideast with renewed vigor. However, it certainly wasn't created with some neocon conspiracy in mind. It was designed to provide the framework with which an information total war may be fought--scientia est potentia, indeed.

One does not have to be a member of DARPA to have the slightest idea as to what DARPA has actually done.

... "perhaps more than you." - Perhaps not. ;)

"Right now I'm still but a student..." - We all are, even those of us with multiple grad degrees in disparate fields. That is why I enjoy educating myself here at DU... such smart folks here! :D

Strauss and his U of C clones are not a secret to the informed. Some of us even know them personally, went to grad school with them, debated and dissembled their haughty manifestos.

Lone Pawn, you are an interesting fellow. :)

Wan an zai jian! :hi:

In my mind, it is the naive person who cannot ( or will not) put the pieces together.

They are right in front of our eyes.

This level of havoc and destruction raining down on our world and our nation - as a result of the neo-conservative agenda - was not produced by stupid, short-sighted individuals.

It was planned down to the letter, and anyone going against the plans has been eliminated or marginalized by the press.

In my opinion, only a very small child would be unable to see this.

They ignored the warnings because they wanted it to happen. Any other interpretation assumes that this cabal, these Straussian Cons, were simply hapless morons. They are not that stupid. They follow the teachings of their guru and they have no morality.

They are evil. They are victimizers. They are not innocents as you suggest. Be an apologist for them if you wish, but I will not excuse them for their complicity in 9/11, Look at the facts. They did not have to set up robot planes or any of that shit, but they had plenty of info to know what was coming and they chose to let it happen. Align yourself with them, if you choose. I hold them as accountable as their Saudi partners.

For God's sake, the neoconservatives are not gods. They're just another group of intellectuals. They are neither angel nor demon. They are not the magical guardians of the realm, equipped with omniscience and omnipotence. They're just another group of thinkers who've been incorporated into the Republican political machine. Did Wolfowitz have any info as to what was coming? Of course not. He's just as dependent on the information he recieves as MacNamara was during Vietnam. If Wolfowitz was as aware as you seem to believe he was, I'm not certain why he was so dead wrong about the Iraqi reconstruction.

With all the documented failures of the FBI in the past few decades, with all the embarassing failures of the CIA during the Cold War, with all the backfires, blunders, and mistakes we've made...what makes this one so special? There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that this administration had any part in these attacks save that it would be politically convenient for them. Of course, if they're that ballsy, tell me why we haven't "found" WMD in Iraq or "found" OBL.

Anyway, my 'interpretation' is that the neoconservatives are a group of highly intelligent, highly principled, yet deeply misguided men. Note that neoconservatives are not war profiteers are not religious right are not oilmen. Note also that I did not say that I believe they ought be in power. Noting those, they are dependent on their information framework, which can be in places amazingly fine-tuned, but can be in places messy and chaotic. Terrorist cells fight information agencies guerilla-warfare style--they flood with false threats, fake information, false leads, gibberish, and code. They plan and 'prepare to execute' plans that do not exist. There is a sea of information for our intelligence agencies to wade through--it ain't just three memos, a signed document, and a PDB. I'd think it's not so ridiculous to say that intelligence failed. It sure as hell failed in Iraq--the reconstruction, not the WMD case. I'd say it failed on 9/11.

Speaking of which, who do you believe the neoconservative guru is? Bill Kristol? He's not that impressive.

PNAC sucks, Wolfowitz knew and sucks. Kristol sucks, BFEE really sucks, 9/11 sucked (mihop or lihop), dubby's war sucks.
Glad I could help. :evilgrin:

I see your comments below go into much more detail. We still see Sibel Edmunds trying to get her intelligence stories out. How could dubby send cheney to cia to get the stovepiped intelligence, yet ignore his simple PDB? Dub is not going after bin ladin for a reason. They are business partners. It would be interesting to see the 28 missing pages about the Saudis.

Iraq who has suffered the most had basically nothing to do with 9/11.
The oil seekers and weapons builders are in charge of the regimes agenda. Warmonger chickenhawks. :nuke:

that the world is only 6,000 years old? And was created in 6 days? Despite voluminous scientific astronomical evidence to the contrary. LOL, intellectuals who think a guy with a grey beard is sitting in the clouds whispering in Shrub's pointed ears? Intellectuals who believe in rapture? Intellectuals who toss aside evolution for creationism? I guess those would be the same intellectuals who can't do enough math to tell the difference between the $300 billion dollar surplus we had when Shrub stole the election in 2000 and the trillion dollar deficit he gave us. Those would be the same intellectuals who can't get it straight that Iraq didn't attack us? Are those the same intellectuals who won't let us heal ourselves with stem cells unless we are wealthy enough to travel abroad and do it in foreign lands? The same intellectuals who think we should make it illegal for seniors to buy American made drugs cheaper from Canada and Mexico? They won't be able to afford drugs anyway, after we are through raping their social insecurity benefits! Are they the same intellectuals who believe "there is no global warming" even though the glaciers have completely melted away from the Peruvian Alps and the Himalayas? You must mean those intellectuals don't care about lead and mercury in the water because they only drink beer anyway. Those ones who didn't want to send Junior to college, anyway. They are saving him for a good war somewhere, instead, anyway. Junior can kick ass! And he thinks it's fun! Oh, come now, please, there is no such thing as a fundie intellectual.