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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:35 PM
Original message
Schiavo's attorney blasting Repubs & Dems
Live Press Conference right now.

He basted Delay & Co. saying they have no right to intervene in this case. Asking everyone to call & write your Congressperson & Senator to protest was Congress is doing.

He also blasted Dems in the Senate. He asked where was Kerry, Hillary Clinton when the Senate passed their bill? He said Ron Wyden was the only Dem to try & stop the Senate bill.

He said when does the minority stand up & speak, & try to stop this? He said they deserve to be the minority people. He is really angry!!!

He said the Dems cut a deal in the cloakroom to go along with the Repubs. He just again called out Kerry, Clinton, Pat Leahy, etc.

He said what the Dems did was worse that the other side, because they failed to stand up!!!!
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skylarmae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want to know what deal he is talking about that was made in the
cloak room by the Dems.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. The Republicans in the Senate passed a bill last nite
& Ron Wyden was the only Dem to try & stop it.

Said the others remained silent, because a deal had been struck.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I want to know too. Wyden deserves big credit for standing
alone last night...I agree with that attorney - where the hell are the Dems on this? And what shady deal are they working?
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. I don't know about the bill
except I heard the House & Senate BOTH passed bills last night to intervene in this case.

Frist & Delay worked together.

Only thing is they were a little different, so the bill has to be reconciled.

Delay is talking about calling Congress back into session.
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't have a TV, but if he is saying what you say he is saying,
then he is right. I am still waiting for the reps of my party to stand up.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. he's completely right. He's totally brave. I wish him only victory
and peace.

Bite the fucking dems who want to cut deals on this. When are we going to stand up for principle because its the right thing to do? Damn.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because our 'leaders' are scared to do the right thing!
More of that nuance and jui-jitsu and deep thinking - all leading to chickenshit asswipe toadyism.

Fight Back Against the Forces of Darkness.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Democrats stand for nothing.
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skylarmae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:56 PM
Original message
I am a democrat and I stand for plenty, thank you Progressive 1
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. He said to create an avalanche of calls and email to

Congress.

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. What did they fail to stand up to?
All I see is a laywer trying to legalize a guy killing his invalid wife by starvation.
It is barbaric.
Florida gave better treatment to Ted Bundy, and he raped and slaughtered women.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. No, it's an issue about what rights does the Congress have?
The attorney said they could do this to any citizen, IOW, interfere with your privacy & medical care.

The courts had already ruled.

He said this is all about political gains for the Repubs.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Also, she has no brain cortex left.
If they remove the feeding tube, she will be completely unaware.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Other experts disagree
I have seen MDs on the news saying she would most definetly suffer
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. RW mouthpieces paid to say that. The brainscans show there is
nothing there.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
65. So every doctor who disagrees with you is a paid whore?
And every one who does agree with you has absolutely no conflict of interest?
Sorry, doesn't wash. I refuse to believe that every doctor that has been interviewed about this case who has some hope for Terri is a paid agent of the Republican Party and the fundies.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. SHE HAS NO BRAIN!!!!
She's dead, Jim. The religiously insane and radical clerics are using this case to further a political agenda and you fell for the BS propaganda.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. She has something going on
People here try to say she is brain dead, but obviously she has more going on, because I have seen it in the videos they keep showing.

I am sick of all these people who want to kill this poor woman saying she is brain dead just because they hate the pro-lifers.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. THE VIDEOS ARE HEAVILY EDITED
You've fallen for the propaganda. She has only ever demonstrated autonomic responses for the past fifteen years. The parents used hours upon hours of video footage heavily edited to make it APPEAR she was responding to outside stimuli. This has been gone over time and again in court after court.

SHE HAS NO BRAIN!!! Here are pictures:

Scan of a normal human brain:



Terri Schiavo's brain (dark blue is cranio/spinal fluid; light blue is remnants of brain tissue):

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Heavy editing cannot make a woman communicate
Listen, she is not brain dead as far as I am concerned. i think you have fallen for the other sides propaganda. If she was brain dead she couldn't laugh, which she did nor could she follow objects with her eyes.
A number of people, including her family believe that there is much more going on than the other side says.

I, for once, believe the fundies. You cannot make a brain dead woman have any response at all.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. You are simply wrong.
Those who are brain dead occasionally send out the synapses required for this type of activity in the same way that occasionally you have muscle spasms.

Do some more reading on this one.

Additionally the videos you have seen are very heavily edited. This woman is already, for all intents and purposes dead.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Those are not muscle spasms
You, sir, are the one who is wrong. There is some sort of brain activity. I don't care what some 'experts' say, others disagree.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. SHE HAS NO BRAIN
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:27 PM by Walt Starr
Ignore the factual evidence all you want, she has not spoken a word in fifteen years, nor has there been any thought whatsoever in her skull for fifteen years.

I gave you incontrovertable evidence as to her state. She has no brain. There is no mind. All that is there is autonomic responses.

You have succumbed to the mindless numbery and emotional prevarication projected by the religiously insane.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Obviously, there is something
Your evidence does not explain the degree of awareness she shows, even if for but a small part of the full tape.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. SHE HAS NO AWARENESS
IT was a staged event. It took hours upon hours to get those few moments of coincidental autonomic responses which appeared to be to external stimuli.

Her awareness was gone fifteen years ago when her brain left.

Without a brain, there can be no awareness. You are your brain!
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Obviously we disagree
I believe that she has some sort of awareness. I find it impossible to believe she has no brain activity--call me stupid, whatever, but I can't believe she is completely brain dead and many doctors would agree. Many MDs on the news have said the same thing, while others have agreed with you. I choose to err on the side of Terri's parents.

We just have to agree to disagree. Neither of us will budge
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. What are your medical qualifications and when did you examine Ms. Shiavo
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:38 PM by Walt Starr
to come up with your diagnosis?

I thought so.

apparently you refuse to look at the brain scan pictures, too. If you had you would clearly see, the woman has no brain.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. I have no medical qualifications
My college degree is in history.

I have seen a number of doctors on the news and on various programs have different opinions about Terri's condition.
If I am wrong, I choose to be wrong on the side that gives Terri a chance.
You very well might be right, but other experts, including ones who have seen Terri, disagree with you.

If I am wrong, so be it. But I am not doing it to flame you, or to support some pro-life republican agenda. I am doing it because I believe it is right.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. The ONLY doctors who have disagreed
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:44 PM by Walt Starr
were either hired by the Schindlers or are shills for the religiously insane and radical clerics.

She has no brain. I proved that with the pictures. She has a skull filled with spinal fluid, ergo, she cannot have awaremness, feelings, thoughts, etc.

She's dead, Jim.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Do you really believe every expert who disagrees with you
is paid by some special interest?

Perhaps there are actual disagreements out there?

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. In this case, yes!
Absolutely. Those who ahave actually looked at the picture I posted ALL AGREE, she has no brain and is dead for all intents and purposes.

Reacting emotionally to this is fthe realm of the religiously insane.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. The people who want to treat her
are 17 quacks who have never even seen her. Most of their info is based on those freaky videotapes and stuff posted on the Schindler family's website :eyes:
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. The couple of seconds of supposed responses
were edited out of a total of 4 hours of video tape. They have shown the entire tape in court.

Also, her husband said that she told him that she would never want to be kept alive like that.

And just for the record, neither would I.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. Try another language....
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. No, I speak English very well, thank you
I think she shows too much response to be considered completely brain dead, no matter how many CAT scans you post.

I find it easier to believe Terri's parents, and I simply do not believe Michael Schiavo was ever looking out for Terri's best interest.

I do not even understand why he is still considered her husband---he lives with another woman, has 2 kids with her and has been trying to get Terri killed since he won the malpractice settlement with the promise to take care of her for years to come.
Even before 1997 (when he won money for her care), he refused to let doctors treat Terri for infections, he stopped allowing them to clean her teeth etc.

I do not trust him and do not understand why they let him make the decisions for her.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. Well, here's one falsehood
has been trying to get Terri killed since he won the malpractice settlement


It was 5 years, 4 months after the settlement before he petitioned the court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. actually, it started before that
When Terri was suffering infections, he tried to keep doctors from treating her before 1997
He has blocked most efforts since 1992 or 1993 to treat her for anything.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. Actually it was not him who made this decision, but a court...
Unless you have read the trial transcripts, you cannot make a judgement on the validity of the decision.


Yet in the Schiavo case, rather than deciding himself that her life should be terminated, her husband went to the court and asked them to review what evidence existed - such as her comments to friends and such - as to whether or not she would want to continue living. He put this decision entirely in the court's hands. Both sides were given the chance to present whatever evidence they had to sway the court in their direction, and after holding an actual trial on the matter, and reviewing all evidence made available to it by both sides, the court determined that she would not want to be kept alive. That's a much higher standard of objectivity than cases where a spouse or other next-of-kin simply makes the decision on their loved one's behalf.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #76
94. Come on
The Schindlers have been trying for years to have him removed as her guardian on bogus abuse/neglect grounds. You think if he had he wouldn't have been removed by now? Everything that has or hasn't been done to Terri Schiavo had been under the supervision of a medical staff. Your argument that he's been trying to kill her through neglect or whatever just doesn't hold any water.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. I saw michael Schiavo on an old Larry King
He said the tapes are edited.

There is one small clip from hours & hours of tape.

The facial expressions are totally involuntary.

She's been this way for how long? 12 years? not sure, but HER doctors are the ones who know this woman.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. She has had no brain in her skull for 15 years now
She has no thoughts, no emotions, no senses. She cannot see as it requires one have a brain to see.

What gets me is people succumb to an emotional response to an edited tape rather than incontrovertable evidence that she has no brain in her skull!
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
48. Where were the pro-lifers for this baby?
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:10 PM by BrklynLiberal
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3087387



Baby dies after hospital removes breathing tube

Case is the first in which a judge allowed a hospital to discontinue care
By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, nearly 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open, his mother said, and smacked his lips.

Then at 2 p.m. Tuesday, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his birth Sept. 25. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

"I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months. ... They made a terrible mistake."

Sun's death marks the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.


more
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I do not know
I am not one of them, but I find it unbelievable that they let that child die.

I heard nothing about that case until today.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
77. What she has going on
are some primitive brain stem activities. That accounts for the moaning, grimaces, crying. That's it.
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Terre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. If you've the time
you might want to read the diary and passionate posts over at dKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/18/135811/024#166

This one I felt was particularly enlightening:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/3/18/135811/024/151#151
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Thanks for the links
I saved the thread to read later :)
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Thank you for the links
I just have trouble with the government starving a woman to death based on hearsay evidence, against the wishes of her family.

It is a charade that Michael is still called her husband, because he is living with another woman and has 2 kids with her.
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Terre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. If there was not the technology
to keep her body alive, she would have been "gone" long ago.

It's my feeling she moved on 15 years ago.

And you're welcome for the links. I hope you'll take the time to reads all the posts.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. This case just doesn't add up to me
something is not right here. I am not a fundie, i am normally VERY skeptical of the Falwells and their ilk, and of any thing the Republicans back. It is a cold day in hell when I side with the pukes on anything.
But i can't help but side with terri's parents. I feel they are the ones telling the truth here and something about Michael Schiavo doesn't seem right. I don't believe him, his story is suspect and i do not believe that Terri's brain damage can be explained by bulimia. It just doesn't add up.

I am sorry, but I am with Terri's parents on this one.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
89. you are irrational
You need to go find out what a cerebral cortex is. Then you need to understand that Terri has no cerbral cortex, none at all. There is no 'Terri' there. You have been lied to and you have been misled and you have allowed your emotions to override your rational thought processes.

The devil is wearing a sweater Zuni, as you are aligining yourself with the fundie agenda here.
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GodHelpUsAll2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
90. SO..........
Let me get this straight, If I decide I do not belive YOUR spouce then I should petition the courts and all of congress to make sure that my personal "opinion" is listened to. Because after all, I just don't think the motives of your spouce or family for that matter are sincere. And hey, I can make decisions about YOUR life much better than a spouce or anyone else for that matter because I saw pictured of you on Fox News.

Get real.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
79. Terri's own family
told him to get on with his life. It's a shame that they're trying to use it against him later. And so many people are falling for it.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
67. great links..Thanks. Lots of very interesting new information on this
Almost the whole story here..Timeline, History, Q&A,

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda

here are a couple of excerpts

Terri Schiavo Information Page

The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive.




Why did Terri’s husband get to make the decision about whether she should live or die?

Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri.

As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her.

Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.

The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures.


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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. They Failed to Protect States Rights.
So you believe that the government should be able to tell the governed what they can and can't do based mainly on the religious beliefs of one group.


I know that you're going to attack me, and I don't really give a flying f***. Unless you know exactly what has happened for the last 11 years, your opinion is about as worthwhile as mine is.

They failed to resist the federal governments' involvement in a States Rights issue, that's what they failed to do.

Personally I think it's more barbaric for her parents to let their "beloved" daughter be used by fundies for their own agenda, but that's just my opinion.

By the way, where were you when Texas pulled the plug on a little boy by the name of Sun Hudson?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I never heard of the case
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 04:57 PM by Zuni
I just think that is unbelievable that the court can order a woman starved to death on hearsay evidence

And the fact that Michael is called her husband even though he lives with another woman and has 2 kids with her is even more galling
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. have you heard of cruzan v. director?
Remarkably similar facts: persistent vegatative state due to a 1983 car accident, kept alive for years by feeding tube. Big difference: it was her parents arguing that she would not want to be kept "alive" by such means and the state opposing. The Supreme Court ruled that the state could demand clear and convincing evidence before allowing the tube to be pulled. While there was no documentary evidence of her wishes, the court eventually did find that the parents had proved their case (just as the court in Florida has concluded that Michael Schiavo proved his case) and the tube was removed. Nancy slowly and peacefully died 12 days later. The only thing disturbing that happened during that time was that 20 maniacs tried to storm the hospital to "save" Nancy. What Nancy's parents put on her gravestone tells you everything:

``Born: July 10, 1957; Departed: January 11, 1983; At Peace: December 26, 1990.''

onenote
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. I am still not comfortable with this case
It just doesn't add up to me. I do not feel Michael Schiavo is being totally forthright, especially since he didn't mention Terri wanted to die until 7 years after the accident, when they won the malpractice settlement.

I also find it hard to believe that bulimia caused this degree of brain damage.
Her brother said on the news a few days ago that there was evidence of real physical abuse, and I believe it is more likely that she suffered from suffocation or strangulation to cause this brain damage.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. you can believe in the tooth fairy for all I care
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:36 PM by onenote
The Florida courts have reviewed this case time and again...do you think ever judge/justice that's had an opportunity to consider this case is corrupt, blind, stupid, evil? Or is it just possible, that the evidence doesn't support the lies being spouted by Terri's family.

onenote
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. I do not know what to believe about Florida
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 05:38 PM by Zuni
But I do not believe her family is lying. I think they are saying what they really believe. Call me crazy, but they seem honest to me.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. well, then, let's get rid of the judicial system
and install you as the arbiter of truth....

onenote
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. Now you are getting personal
I never even hinted at that, but you have to resort to cheap shots.

I happen to believe one side in a story. In your zealotry to oppose anything the fundie right does, you have determined a woman should be starved to death to spite them.
I would rather beat them politically, and get them out of congress.

Better yet, why don't you decide who lives and dies.

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. my zealotry
has nothing to do with the fundie right. It has to do with the fact that in our system of government, we, the people, have chosen to make judges, not individuals, the arbiters of legal issues and the court, having spoken and having been reviewed countless times, has determined that Terri Schiavo's wish was not to be kept alive by extraordinary means.

I have no desire to choose who lives or dies. If the court had decided the other way, I would be defending that position.

You are the one deciding that your personal judgment should trump the informed decision of those that society has charged with a fairly awesome responsibility.

onenote
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
73. Do you have any idea how bad bulimia can be? It can KILL !
Do you know what killed Karen Carpenter?

The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Here is as good an objective summary of the case as I have found

You're left with a woman who suffered a heart attack 15 years ago, who essentially died but was resuscitated, though not entirely. Her brain had suffered enormous damage from the heart attack. As time passed, her brain further deteriorated -- to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. Doctors hired by Terri's husband say the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have. An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions. Doctors hired by Terri's parents did not dispute the physical damage done to Terri, but they claim there are new therapies that could improve her condition. In two separate trials, the trial court found such claims of potential improvement to be without merit. Terri's body continues to function without her cerebral cortex. She is sustained by a feeding tube surgically inserted into her stomach. She cannot eat through her mouth without a strong likelihood of choking to death.

You're left with a husband who lived with his in-laws following Terri's heart attack, who apparently provided care and therapy for years but who later came to believe Terri would never recover. He believes she would not have wanted to be kept alive in this brain-degenerated condition by a surgically implanted tube. He is apparently willing to continue his fight to achieve what he believes Terri would want despite ridicule, hatred, expense, and threats.

You're left with parents who were once allied with Terri's husband in an effort to care for Terri and restore her but, unlike Terri's husband, they never lost hope. They believe Terri reacts to them and has conscious thoughts. They believe Terri would not want, and does not want, her feeding tube removed, and that some cognitive function could be restored through new therapies. Terri's parents are willing to continue their fight to achieve what they believe Terri would want despite ridicule, hatred, expense, and threats.

You're left with judges who have been placed in the utterly thankless position of applying Florida law to this impassioned situation. Florida law calls for the trial court to determine what Terri would chose to do in this situation, and after a trial hard fought by Terri's husband and her family, where each side was given the opportunity to present its best case about what Terri would do, the court determined the evidence was clear and convincing that Terri would chose not to continue living by the affirmative intervention of modern medicine -- that she would chose to have her feeding tube disconnected. In a second trial, brought about by Terri's family's claims new therapies could restore her and that the existence of such a therapy would make her "change her mind," the trial court again heard evidence from all sides and determined that no new therapy presented any reasonable chance of restoring Terri's brain function. The propriety of these decisions -- from the sufficiency of the evidence to the appropriateness of the procedures used -- has been unanimously upheld on appeal each time.

You're left with a public that is much confused. Some see video clips of Terri moving, appearing to make eye contact, and making sounds, and they assume such are the product of conscious thought -- that Terri's "in there." Some believe Terri's husband has been motivated by money. Some believe that no heart attack occurred -- instead, Terri's husband beat her nearly to death and has been trying to end her life ever since. Some believe he is a bad person because he has taken up with another woman and has children with her. Some believe Florida's judiciary is corrupt or inept, to the point where death threats have been made against the trial judge. Some are sad that families would fight like this. Some believe that removing Terri's feeding tube would cause her pain and is inhumane (I'm no doctor, but the medical information I've seen on this subject uniformly says the opposite.) Some are disappointed that the law does not allow someone in Terri's condition to be kept alive perpetually if a family member is willing to care for him or her. Some believe no life should be permitted to reach an unnecessary end unless irrefutable proof, or at least written proof, shows the person wanted things that way.

All of these positions are understandable in some sense, though if you've read my posts over the years you know I am particularly sensitive to the judiciary's position of following the law correctly and yet being so horrifically misunderstood by many.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
84. Have you read the court transcripts?
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Ronnie Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
92. Hearsay?
Do you even know what that means?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. Before it got political....................

Way back in 2000, before Schiavo became the rallying call for people who have nothing better to do, here is how the St. Petersburg Times described Schiavo's end: "If is removed, Mrs. Schiavo would die painlessly in a week or two. She does not feel hunger or thirst, and she would just drift away, doctors say." That fact, that Schiavo will not actually experience anything differently, is now left out of most media stories on her. The distorted face of Terry Schiavo is now merely a canvas upon which ideology has been writ large, where the notion of "life" has been perverted to mean "a heartbeat," and where the cruel vicissitudes of politics now rear their ugly, hydra-heads.
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Bariztr Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
95. Failure of comprehension
The failure here is one of comprehension and it would be solely yours.
There have been a multitude of threads and links that outline her current condition, the years of treatment and the complete lack of hope of recovery.

You engage in scurrilous attack comparing her husband to an unrepentant murderer without one shred of evidence that can lead anyone to such an outrageous conclusion.

Your the barbarian.
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Terre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Incredible!!
What a fervent speech and a lambasting of Congress! My jaw was dropping the whole time.

Wish we had more Senators with as much spirit.

WATCH MSNBC - they'll show it over and over again, I'm sure.

God, I love Wyden!!
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. I couldn't find the Senate vote this morning to determine who to
blast. Anybody else successful?
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Idioteque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. it was a voice vote...fucking cowards!! n/t
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. This was all I could find. No listing of the voice vote.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 04:57 PM by BrklynLiberal
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:S.539:

S.539
Title: A bill to amend title 28, United States Code, to provide the protections of habeas corpus for certain incapacitated individuals whose life is in jeopardy, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Sen Martinez, Mel (introduced 3/7/2005) Cosponsors (14)
Related Bills: H.R.1151, H.R.1332, S.653
Latest Major Action: 3/8/2005 Read the second time. Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 34.



S.653
Title: A bill for the relief of the family of Theresa Marie Schiavo.
Sponsor: Sen Martinez, Mel (introduced 3/17/2005) Cosponsors (18)
Related Bills: H.R.1151, H.R.1332, S.539
Latest Major Action: 3/17/2005 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Introduced in the Senate, read twice, considered, read the third time, and passed without amendment by Voice Vote.ALL ACTIONS: (color indicates Senate actions)

3/17/2005:
Introduced in the Senate, read twice, considered, read the third time, and passed without amendment by Voice Vote.
COSPONSORS(18), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)


Sen Alexander, Lamar - 3/17/2005
Sen Brownback, Sam - 3/17/2005
Sen Bunning, Jim - 3/17/2005
Sen Coburn, Tom - 3/17/2005
Sen Coleman, Norm - 3/17/2005
Sen Conrad, Kent - 3/17/2005
Sen Cornyn, John - 3/17/2005
Sen DeMint, Jim - 3/17/2005
Sen DeWine, Mike - 3/17/2005
Sen Ensign, John - 3/17/2005
Sen Frist, William H. - 3/17/2005
Sen Hagel, Chuck - 3/17/2005
Sen Inhofe, James M. - 3/17/2005
Sen Isakson, Johnny - 3/17/2005
Sen Santorum, Rick - 3/17/2005
Sen Sessions, Jeff - 3/17/2005
Sen Stevens, Ted - 3/17/2005
Sen Vitter, David - 3/17/2005
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. I loved it
He called out the big names, too, just as he should have. He even mentioned Boxer later on. He's right: if they can't stand for individual liberties, we will forever be the minority party and we will deserve it.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. He was GREAT! I wish I had taped it!
:toast:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wow! Good for him!!!
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Perhaps the Democrats didn't agree with what his client is doing
:shrug:
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Perhaps Dems & Repugs alike
should understand that it is a state issue. It has absolutely nothing to do with the federal government.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. But how does that give them a right to pass a LAW to interefere?
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Someone has got to say these kinds of things!!
Many of us have been saying this about the Dems for a long, long time.

Maybe this is what it takes.

When "average Americans" have their lives directly affected by Republicans AND by the do-nothing, go-along, dead-in-the-water inaction by the Dems--maybe this country will wake the heck up.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of fighting this fight online and in protests. I'm sick of the "activist end" of the Democratic party being outraged and doing all of the heavy lifting; while everyone else ignores the crisis.

I'm sorry that the Republicans have politicized Terri Schiavo.

However, I am encouraged that others are learning just how destructive, power-obsessed, reckless, abusive, arrogant and moronic the Republicans are.

Someone has GOT to do something. 15 percent of the Democratic party can't do it all!
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Frist can become Terri's doctor and DeLay can foot the bill all
by themselves. I would find it very difficult to remove her feeding tube, but it is not my choice nor is it Congress' choice.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. You're so right!
If one Dems steps up for anything, we celebrate ourselves silly!

The grassroots can do just so much....the elected reps need to stand up & make a case FOR something!
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. He called the Dems odious!
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. can't say he's wrong about that . . . odious is a good word to apply . . .
to BushCo enablers who pretend to be the opposition party, but don't oppose anything no matter how . . . well . . . odious . . . sure sounds like the Dems to me . . .
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. I wish one Dems would come out on fire like this guy.
He's terrific!
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. I don't think "Dems failed to stand up" is correct
Most Democrats do not want to play God on this one. If I were a Dem Senator or Rep, I would have a mixed feeling on this one because it's not like turning off life support machine, but to STARVE a human being to death. I don't do that to my beloved pets. Also even if Terri is in vegetative state physicially, how do we know her mind/conciousness state? It may function separately and independently of the Brain. What about her awarness? I think that most Dems are right to stay out of it (did they?)
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. I think the right thing to do is vote against Republican legislation
It's a state issue, not federal. They should vote against any legislation giving the federal government the right to interfere.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. That would be the right thing to do
...to vote against fed government the right to interfere. I really think that the fact about Terri's husband's another woman/two kids by him is what made this case very complicated and also there are several factors..like she's not on life support machine. Very hard to really know what is the right thing to do, what's the best for Terri..for me to decide, anyway.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
91. That's part of what people don't understand
By Florida law, feeding tubes and ventilators are seen exactly the same in terms of extraordinary measures/artificial life support. It doesn't matter whether Michael Schiavo is part of the case or married to Terri now. The courts have determined that it was not her wish to be kept alive artificially.

And as for his having a girlfriend and children, the Schindler family specifically told him to get on with his life, only to turn around and use it against him later. He's been demonized by this family when he's really done nothing wrong. Terri Schiavo's care has been wonderful. She's never even had a bed sore. They try to say Michael Schiavo only wants her money. Terri's portion of the malpractice settlement has been in a trust fund administered by a third party and a judge determines each expenditure. Imagine the care of a PVS patient...there's just nothing left after 15 years. I feel terrible for this man. He didn't deserve all this.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. The mind/consciousness state does not function separately...
& independently of the Brain.

No brain, no mind.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. In the case of your beloved pet, you are given the humane option to
euthanize them. No such humane option is legally available.

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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
55. Anyone with a TV
The lawyer is on Wolf Blitzer right now!!!
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. So well this country going to hell, the Federal Government will
now take over the medical case management of 350 million Americans?

Nice to know that our legislators, who can't legislate, now feel compelled to become bioethicists. Somehow I doubt they'll do a very good job at this.

Time to start building warehouses to take care of the lifeless. While people who are really alive, can't get basic healthcare.

What a screwed up country this is.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
66.  because they failed to stand up
yup. Rat worms...
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
86. If what he says is true, he's right that what the Dems did was worse.
And I am not suprised. The Dem leaders....what leaders?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
88. I have to say this
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 06:27 PM by Malva Zebrina
there is a time when death occurs. Death is inevitable to all of us. That this woman is by all intents and purposes, actually dead, having nothing left in her brain to simulate a living human being, cognisant and aware, is dead, is so difficult for some to believe.

We die. To those who cannot accept that, but think that a body without a brain , except for it's most primitive responses, I can only say that you are actually in fear of your own death.

People die. This woman has died. there is no hope for her to ever be a living, cognisant human being again, no matter how long her body is kept alive by this feeding tube.

Death is the end of life for all of us. There is no miracle to be found here in this case. This is not another Christain urban legend where a little boy picks up a dead bird, holds it in his tiny little hand, and suddenly the bird becomes alive and flies away.

Death is inevitable. This woman died fifteen years ago, but those who cannot accept that, insist upon clinging to the notion that we do not die and that tubes that feed the dead body formula, can stave off the inevitable death which in this case has been determined by the lack of a major part of the brain.

Why cannot people accept that this woman is dead? I submit it is because they cannot accept their own death as an inevitable consequence of life, and I submit it is because they resist becoming a nothing and that is totally unacceptable to their ego.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
93. The problem is that what happened yesterday in the Senate
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 07:19 PM by Mass
is not clear.

They came back after discussion, announced they had a compromise bill that Levin helped to write.

Levin said though he helped make sure the bill was better, he still opposed it. Wyden said so too, because it was infringing with Oregon euthanasia law, though he stated that he was opposing euthanasia. Nobody else opposed.

Then the vote was put to voice vote. A few NO were heard, but nobody knows who said NO, and basically nobody opposed the voice vote.

I guess everybody is to blame here, and frankly Levin is the only one to state a principled opposition (this was not what Wyden was stating).

BTW, the vote was yesterday in the middle of the budget vote, not surprisingly.
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