Do you believe in a spiritual dimension?

This isn't about organized religion, I just would like to see how many DUer's believe that the known physical universe is all there is-physical matter and a material world--or do you believe that there is a spiritual dimension?

:dem::kick:

A dimension is measurement direction: length, width, height and alternate names for the same. Under relativity, duration is also a dimension. Any additional dimensions would necessarily be physical, though presently undetected.

Any spirit realm either exists or it does not. If it does, it must be somewhere. That begs the question, where is it? I submit that it is nowhere or is so far removed from human observation that its existence is irrelevant.

My logic in choosing dimension goes to the heart of the belief that there are only 3 dimensions acknowledged to exist-yet we live in a time of paradigm shifts that support the argument that there is a spiritual dimension.

Then I wish we had better music as a soundtrack.

Cletus

the Age of Aquarius lasts for 2000 years, just as the Age of Picses lasted for 2000 years prior to the Age of Aquarius.

Question: Ever wonder why the symbol the early christians used was the fish?

Answer: the symbol of Picses is a fish

The explanation I heard was that some phrase about Jesus translated into Greek forms an acronym that spells the Greek word for fish. Now maybe that was concocted with the astrology reference in mind. Don't really know.

It was a pagan symbol (the "vesica piscis"), co-opted by Christians. The original symbol is rotated ninety degrees from the orientation used in Christian iconography, and it represents, supposedly, the sacred vagina of the Great Mother, from whence came all of creation.

telling his disciples "I will make you fishers of men" It's an evangelical symbol for spreading "his" word. To bad we scare away all the fundies we could ask one lol.

... it is hard to accept their reasons.

Actually, it does not surprise me that the fish thing has pagan roots. Much of Christianity does.

has some type of pathology then if they believe in a spiritual realm?
That is way too big a brush to wield imo.

... but not to his own facts. Reality is what it is, whatever it is, and exists independently of any person's beliefs. Being religious is not a pathology because billions of people are religious and functional. Nevertheless, believing does not make it so and believing in contradiction of established proof (in cases were there is proof)is nuerotic and disfunctional.

or the flooding in, in a physical flash, of love and joy?

They used to tell us how insignificant emotions are, that one was "weak" to even have them. Now we know that they are the basis of intellectual thought, and move us to action even when arguments cannot.

I know it is difficult to understand in our materialist culture. But with the new emphasis on "chi" from the Chinese, and therapies like Reiki, as well as the connection between mind and body ills or wellness, can't you just FEEL how much more there is to understand?

Today is the birthday of J.S. Bach, and what a lovely day it is, working with a constant stream of his music in my daily life. :-) No one can listen to the music of Bach and not believe in a spiritual realm. Oh, and all the wonderful phytochemicals in an orange or a mango.

There is more to this wondrous world, Horatio, than meets the eye. :-)

"Are you telling me you can't feel the crackle in the room of hate or fear or the flooding in, in a physical flash, of love and joy?"

Those things are felt through purely physiological means.

"They used to tell us how insignificant emotions are, that one was "weak" to even have them. Now we know that they are the basis of intellectual thought, and move us to action even when arguments cannot."

Usually wrong actions like persecution of others. Having emotions is a normal part of being human. They are not, however, the basis of intellectual thought.

"I know it is difficult to understand in our materialist culture. But with the new emphasis on "chi" from the Chinese, and therapies like Reiki, as well as the connection between mind and body ills or wellness, can't you just FEEL how much more there is to understand?"

No, and there is no real evidence that medieval hold-overs like Reiki have any theraputic benefit. I do not doubt that there is much that is unknown, but that does not mean those processes are anything but physical.

"No one can listen to the music of Bach and not believe in a spiritual realm."

He did the Brandenburg Concertos, did he not? I listen to them and to his organ works and to other Baroque composers like Vivaldi. While I find them emotionally gratifying, they do not prove anything except that people react to music. That is hardly surprising considering the role it played in our tribal past. I do not believe in a spiritual realm because there is no place for it to exist.

"There is more to this wondrous world, Horatio, than meets the eye."

No doubt, but our ignorance is not an excuse to fill in the blanks with purely imagined facts and proclaim them as reality.

You really should read more, Deep.

"(Emotions) are not, however, the basis of intellectual thought."

"There is no real evidence that medieval hold-overs like Reiki have any therapeutic benefit."

Bach is fun to listen to due to the "role it (music) played in our tribal past."


You really show the holes in your education, I am afraid.

BTW--my husband is a physicist and the one with the PhD in the Middle East, I am the political/social scientist with a music degree. And I play Bach.

:-)

Sorry to sound sharp, but you "atheists" really crack me up, you really think you are the "brilliant thinkers." Sigh. If you only knew.

It is false logic to attack the one making the argument as a substitute for attacking the argument. Apparently your education missed that.

I am not saying that I know for a fact that there is no spirit realm, only that the examples you casually referenced do not prove anything. Hell, I don't even know that the examples you cite even exist.

How is it that a political/social scientist has a music degree unless it is one of many degrees? Yeah, I remember you sociology majors at graduation. Y'all were the ones with yellow collars on half of your class while we in the history department had four students out of over 100 so attired. Anyway, so what if your husband is a physicist? Did you absorb that through osmosis?

I undestand the local New Age shop has a sale on pixie dust. Might want to check it out.
:eyes:

...he left to become a CLERGYMAN. Does THAT tell you something? (And his PhD is in ancient languages and history, Sumerians, Accadians et al.)

I responded to your statements, if you noticed, rather than ad hominem, by pointing out your own words as nonsense. I will have a book list for you later if you like.

The thing I said about you "atheists" in general is that you think yourself so brilliant, and the rest of us as inferior. The language you all use is really disrespectful, and betrays ignorance of certainly research and interest in the last 20 years. I cannot believe what you said about Reiki, for example. It is shocking to me that you think yourself an educated, liberal person and think there is nothing there. Also, read something on the history of science and you will understand more about the new understandings (Harvard, Stanford) about the connections between emotions and intellect. And there is a legion of books on Bach's music and the mathematical and scientific amazements within it. Hopefully the act of splitting one's brain into three or more parts to actually play his organ music will leave me little chance for "dementia" as the poster further down wrote.

As to the New Age movement--there are a lot of folks out there looking for Godot. S/He will find them however S/He can, pixie dust, incense, angels and all.

Just because someone is educated or even brilliant does not mean he is right about everything. That is called the fallacy of authority. Anyway, if you husband wants to be a preacher, I hope he is happy in it.

You can take athiests however you like, but in an intellectual discussion, the evidence cannot be blunted out of consideration for someones feelings. If it seems disrespectful, it is because I do not respect it and I will not lie about that. If you have a science background, then you know how a peer review is. Critical thinking is harsh, but it is the only thing that has ever worked in ascertaining objective fact. (I do not say it always or even often works, only that it is all that ever does.) If a person's theology is "real" to that person, good for him, but it cannot have any significance to anyone who does not share that view and it has no significance at all outside of human thought. Again, I fully admit that I cannot demonstrate that spiritual things do not exist, though I believe it on faith. All I am saying is that nothing you have cited proves anything. You can think I am derisive for failing to take you at your unproven word, but you seem arrogant to me for insisting that I do so.

I find it astounding that religious people can call athiests conceited. We alone seem to have courage to be able to look into the void and see it as it is: impersonal, callous and with a harsh truth that drove our forebearers insane. That truth is that we mean nothing in the scheme of things. We live for a short time on an insignificant speck of dust and die and that is all. That is the apple of Genesis, knowledge of mortality. Religion was invented to keep people sane in the face of this understanding. Yet athiests are perfectly willing to accept what billions cannot, that we are insignificant and that the only earth we will inherit is a six foot plot. That's okay, too, because we don't need to be important. I would rather know the horrible truth than to hear lies to spare my feelings. I used to be religious, but even then I was a skeptic. I walked away from the Episcopal Church despite its tolerance because I knew I was fooling myself.

As far as all your books go, what I really want is evidence, not someone else's second-hand opinions, however lofty the writer. Give me the proof and I will decide for myself. That is what democracy is all about, isn't it? Your assertion about a list of books reminds me of something Einstein said. He heard that the NAZIs had published a book called 100 Authors against Einstein. His response: If I were wrong, one would be enough.

I said nothing to disparage Bach, only that listening to his music does not prove the existance of a spirit world. Your willingness to read meaning into my writing where the language does not support it is evidence of intellectual lack of discipline, but no more than the rest of your argument.

My liberalism does not come from education or from playing badmitton with irrelevant arguments on unimportant topics. Frankly, it comes from suffering and the desire not to see others suffer. I suppose if I did not give a shit I would escape from Buddah's second truth and live like the Rs. The advancement of the human condition walks in lockstep with the destruction of faith. What is faith, after all, but a prison for the mind? I want people to be free from coercion, religious or otherwise and to have their basic needs met. I want to take care of this speck of dust, because it is all we have. I want to stop our insane foreign policy which has W.W.III written all over it. I want people to free their minds and stop punishing themselves for imagined sin.

PEOPLE KILL,...not "religion" which is merely a concept.

You really don't have to believe in anything to contribute to humanity.

However, you have no more right to impose your personal will (concerning personally spirituality) than anyone else.

Yes?

People have a right to their own beliefs. I don't agree with religion or spirituality, but I believe in a right to those things. Kind of like a lot of people's view on abortion.

Generally, I try not to push my views on others, but in this case it was a thread specifically inviting people to discuss the matter. It is easy to become defensive in a minority "religion" that is generally condemned by society. I am constantly subjected to messages to pray for this or to believe that. Under the circumstances, I think pushing back is reasonable especially when I am doing no more (actually a lot less) than active Christians do in promoting my "religion."

:shrug:

I can share my imaginations without expecting others to accept them,...let alone imposing my will upon others.

It's really not difficult to share ourselves, without expectations,...and to CO-EXIST,...without violence,...unless, personal power and control and violence is the objective.

the brain's chemistry changes depending on the mood of its host. Even if this is only a chemically induced expenditure of energy couldn't that mean that there is a dimension of thought or emotion or spirit? If energy can't be destroyed simply its form changed, then emotional and spiritual energy would have to go somewhere. Perhaps it simply flies off into space like radio waves and creates your own little pocket dimension tailored to your own personal beliefs.

I am sure like all other biochemical processes, emoting expends energy. Is imagination a pocket universe? I suppose so for that individual, but it has no independent existance beyond the confines of that individual's mind.

One runs into trouble trying to draw analogies from physics to explain cognative processes. Ultimately, biochemical energy including nueral energy is dissipated into the environment as heat. That is why it is not destroyed.

It's ridiculous to say, 'only people who believe in fairy tales or mysticism can enjoy Bach.' How presumptious and illogical.

Flaunting one's unrelated degree is "False authority" a fallacious argument.

--my husband is a physicist and the one with the PhD in the Middle East He has a PhD in the Middle East? :eyes:

,...that humanity has just scraped the surface of how existence and the universe is hugely greater than ourselves?

Are you belittling the fact that, even the most educated among us believe we are merely a part of a whole that touches us all?

I'm not sure where you're coming from,...but, your post does come off as,...demeaning an intelligent, thoughtful, hopeful & spiritual human being.

Why would you do that?

Where did I say that humans have full knowledge and understanding of all things including the origin of our planet and the universe? I said no such thing, but I don't credit mysticism for what we don't know.

Why are making illogical extrapolations?

I refuted the statement, that only those who believe in a supernatural realm can appreciate Bach. That is an absurd statement.

Your insults and "your post does come off as,...demeaning an intelligent, thoughtful, hopeful & non-spiritual human being.

Why would you do that?" :eyes:

Fabricating what someone wrote and launching an ad hominem attack says a lot about your post.

Please? :shrug:

Set aside the "ad hominem attack" thingy,...and read through this particular series.

The poster really only asserted the highly educated information AFTER being accused of "mysticism" and whatnot.

You don't HAVE to believe in ANYTHING and still be touched by certain moments in your life.

Interpretations of those incredible moments are mysteries in which we still actually have full freedom to embrace and explore and express.

If you feel compelled to diss on others' freedom to embrace and explore and express those experiences,...so be it. I just lodge my opposition to you so doing.

Just as I have lodged my opposition against power-mongering politicos dissing on the personal case of Shiavo.

Although the two are not precisely analogous,...the dissing on simple personal expressions which are genuine rather than IMPOSING is simply repugnant to me.

... and am not responsible for remarks of others.

The whole thread is a discussion on this issue. One cannot participate in such a discussion without examining the arguments on their strengths and weaknesses.

--IMM

,...greater, of more worth than me?

If so, PROVE IT!!! *LOL* :bounce:

That's the point. I can't necessarily point to any advantage OR disadvantage to thinking spirituality resides outside the person. I believe what I call spirituality in myself is emotions, which can be heightened by intellect. Some people believe there is a mysterious outside force responsible. I believe I can match their wonder and appreciation without posing any outside force.

I know people who believe in ghosts. And that means they are afraid when they don't have to be. It's also not advantageous in scientific investigation.

But what I detect here is people getting upset when others say there is no need to have this "other world" to be fulfilled as human beings. I get delighted with nature and art. Some think there is some magic to this. I don't need it. I don't assume that I'm better, and an arm wrestle would determine who is stronger. I don't see spiritual types as being weaker in general, since I think that capacity is natural among the ways to interpret experience. Proof is a word I generally use in math and publishing, not much use when it comes to beliefs.

Are there mysteries? Sure. There are some things we will never know. Unexplained means just that. My model of the universe does not require that there be anything supernatural. Everything is consistent with nature in my mind. Some people are upset that I could hold that POV. Try being an atheist with a thin skin. DUer Modem Butterfly issued a challenge some weeks ago to any theist who wanted to walk around with an "I am an Atheist" T-shirt. You could get killed doing that.

--IMM

I would be very interested in knowing what T-shirt you imagine me wearing. *LOL*

I try to withhold judgment, but I did allow myself some flippancy.

In the meantime, thousands of T-shirts flashed by my consciousness. All colors and shapes, designs and logos, wet and dry. Heh heh! Now you've made it a sex thing.

--IMM

:bounce:

Meanwhile,....you project sex *LOL*

:bounce:

Of course, I won't go into your obsessions (projecting a sex thingy I never suggested or provoked).

I actually thought that you MIGHT imagine me wearing a shirt that says "YOU CAN'T BE FREE UNTIL YOU KNOW YOUR OPPRESSORS" or "BEING FREE MEANS QUESTIONING YOUR ASSUMPTIONS" or,...something along those lines.

I'll try to keep the sex projector under control.

Kind of shows that imagination can take you anywhere, appropriate for the theme of this thread. But then, I have to keep up my responsibilities as a DOM. My projector had something in a circle, peace sign, zen symbol, something like that. I favor plain T-shirts myself, practical, with a pocket.

But I won't get offended if you don't conform to my imagination.

--IMM

...without respecting the person's beliefs. Hell, some of my friends are even Republicans.

The universe is obviously greater than ourselves and we are obviously part of it. The iron in your blood was made in the core of a red giant star that exploded countless ages ago.

I cannot say definitively that there is no spirit world. I only say no proof of it is known and that nothing in the universe requires a spiritual explanation. Further, it seems that spiritual explanations only exist because humans desire or need them psychologically. All that we know about the universe is known by observation and scientific processes. We do not always get the right answer, but it is the only way we ever do.

,...all of whom bring to bear a feeling of weightlessness escaping the bonds of a human-defined, material world.

A huge harvest moon, a bonfire with friends, a moment of full connection with any human being can fill a space of existence with an entirely different and more fulfilling definition of life,...if one chooses to allow such incredible sensations into their "box".

I don't "think" or "believe" that there are realms beyond our capacity to grasp,...I KNOW that there are spaces/dimensions/realities which are far, far greater than either our perception or ourselves.

... about terms. To be logically consistent, it is important to be clear and consistent in ones definitions. For example, a lot of the confusion over the theory of natural selection is caused by different people having different ideas of what constitutes a theory.

People hear about other dimensions that are predicted by string theory and suppose it adds credence to alternate realities, spirit realms and whatever. It does not. The word dimension means what it means and does not mean an alternate reality.

Please expound on paradigm shifts that support the existence of spirit "dimensions." Also, please state what you mean by "spirit."

just a semantic question. If you define "dimension" the way you do, which is a mathematical definition, then you are right. The same goes for the word "spiritual" of course - what does it mean? I'm not sure, so I belong in the "undecided" camp. But your assertion, that it has to be "somewhere", is false in my opinion. Whatever is meant by "spiritual", it surely is something else than material - thus it can't be anywhere, because it has to be material to be somewhere (occupy a part of the space-time continuum).

The question, as I see it, is really "what is consciousness". Consciousness is real, but it is not material. Yet, it is always (usually, at least)something that is conscious, such as the human body/brain (any other contenders? Animals? Great apes? Lizards?), something that is material and has the ability to not only respond to but experience its material surroundings, and to ponder questions such as these. This, the human consciousness, is nothing less than one of the great mysteries of science. And "spiritual" in rationalist philosophy (such as Decartes) means just that - the realm of the mind.

If a "spiritual realm" exists, then it is by definition (insofar as it is defined as not material) not accessible to human observation, that is observation of the physical world, unless it should in some way manifest itself in the physical world. It should, however, be accessible to the human experience. But I must admit I'm unsure as to what exactly people mean when they use that word.

"Whatever is meant by "spiritual", it surely is something else than material - thus it can't be anywhere, because it has to be material to be somewhere (occupy a part of the space-time continuum)."

If it is nowhere, then it cannot be real. Rather than being an additional dimension, you have described something with no dimensions.

"If a 'spiritual realm' exists, then it is by definition (insofar as it is defined as not material) not accessible to human observation, * * * * It should, however, be accessible to the human experience."

Observation and experience in this context mean the same thing.How can you experience something if not through observation? Even a subjective feeling must be observed or noticed for a person to experience it. That is what I mean about being clear on defintions. It may be semantic, but it is still important. Philosophy and science are made of words and it is necessary to be clear on their meanings.

that it is important to be clear on the meaning of words. So this is difficult to discuss, because "spiritual" is hard to define. And to discuss this in a meaningful way, it is also important to be clear on the meaning of other words that are central in the discussion - "real" and "exist". If only that is real which is material, and spiritual is defined as not material, then anything spiritual is not real as a matter of definition. I'm not so sure about that definition of reality - "that which is measurable". The conciousness of another human being is not measurable, it has no spatial extension, but it is real.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

--IMM

Additional dimensions might be hidden inside of the dimensions that we can see; (string theory says that this is exactly where they are, in fact) that doesn't make them irrelevant. In fact, it makes them very relevant, since they are a part of our world.

... there is nothing mystical about the additional dimensions proposed by string theory. If string theory or some variation of it turns out to be valid, the additional dimensions predicted are purely physical dimensions like length, width, height and duration.


As a side note, I think the string theory will eventually give way to the duct tape theory because of its universal application and durability. :7 :think: :eyes:

Gravity seemed mystical, I'm sure, at one time or another, until we figured out that it was a function of geometry--just as you say. Mankind has a tendency to turn that which he does not understand into some sort of religion. That doesn't mean that it isn't real, though. Take a magnet--if you could go back in time to the caveman era and use a magnet, you would seem to be a wizard, or a holy man, and magnets would be worshipped for their "strange" effects. We know why they work, though, and we don't build religions around them today. Same with electromagnetic energy. We really don't know a damned thing about it, but I suspect that it has something to do with ghosts that people are always seeing, precognition, and a number of other so-called "spiritual" phenomena. Simply because we understand them doesn't mean that they aren't there or that they don't have an effect on our reality.

Some days I don't.

One thing is for sure--I'll find out whether or not there's an afterlife when I die. Not before.

I'm completely turned off by the fundamentalist fruitcakes of all organized religions too.

All organized religions and secret societies make use of this powerful belief for their own agendas.

Pragmatists often make use of it as needed.

that the phone will ring. That a loved one is in trouble, and a connection to the people you love. It's pride, it's euphoria, it's sadness, it's the connection you have with really great sex.

It's why a crowd takes on a "mood". It's why civilizations can be so similar to another halfway around the world.

If everything was physical, you could not experience those things. Because in the physical, it's only there and not there, and nothing in between.

Feelings are spiritual, it nothing that you can "prove".

zalinda

I definitely believe in a spiritual realm.

Just because it has not been fully explained, doesn't mean we should automatically credit mysticism.

...of those passing.

And I am no medium.

But I can remember vividly the first time. It was hard to believe, so I didn't, fully. But looking back on it now, I can see that it was REAL.

Love does NOT DIE. I have lived 53 years, and a very full life, and know that to be true.

My own father passed over my head as I knelt and prayed in Illinois, even though he died with the rest of my family around him in Connecticut. I could tell you more events which would tingle your spine if you believed them, but not knowing me, your skepticism would intervene, I am afraid.

God is. God is everywhere. And happy are those of us who can feel His Love for the world.

"Yes, it's how you know that the phone will ring."

Huh? That used to happen to me in the past, but never in recent years and I think I know why. I was over a friend's house while in high school (1985ish) and he suddenly said "Answer the phone." I began to ring almost immediately. Everyone was astonished. He told me that just before the telephone rings, the clapper on the bell twitches and makes a barely audible noise. He hears it, but somehow no one else notices. Of course, increasingly telephones do not have bells, but make annoying electronic noises that offer no warning. I suppose some people have experiences the same thing but only noticed the sound on an subconscious level.

"That a loved one is in trouble, and a connection to the people you love."

I don't believe that actually happens. The bizzillions of times these things happen without our knowing go unnoticed while the few times coincidence connects concern with a real event become the exceptions that somehow prove the rule.

"It's pride, it's euphoria, it's sadness, it's the connection you have with really great sex."

Endorphines and emotions that are purely biological in origin.

"It's why a crowd takes on a "mood"."

No, that is caused by group dynamics, a measurable and purely biological social phenomenon. Besides, if a crowd all observes the same thing, is it any wonder that they have the same perceptions?

"It's why civilizations can be so similar to another halfway around the world."

We all evolved from the same monkeys, so it should be no surprise that we all have similar behaviors, social structures and norms. We all react to very similar environments, so it is not surprising that the reactions in terms of development are similar.

"Feelings are spiritual, it nothing that you can "prove"."

If it cannot be proven, I submit that it has no real effect on humans and, therefore, does not exist for any practical purpose. I do not know what you mean by 'spiritual' so I cannot comment on whether feelings are spiritual or not. If spiritual is a synonym for emotional or psychological, then feelings are spiritual.

"Endorphines and emotions that are purely biological in origin"

Yes - I agree. But you experience the effect of the endorphines, nonetheless. And therein lies the rub. I doubt that a robot, however sophisticated, experiences the electrical currents which flow through it. If we made a robot of comparable complexity to that of a human being? Who knows. And how would we know? You can't observe experience, after all, only stimuli and reactions. So it can't be proven in any conclusive way, even if we were to build such a robot, that there would be a difference.

for societal/group behavior and dynamics such as mob hysteria or group think. Unless of course it was someone with an undergrad degree from a "Christian" school.

those who are considered by the mainstream churches as heretics...it would explain your anger and all YOUR ad hominem remarks.

My undergrad was in applied music, I did poli sci in graduate school in order to change the world for the better, and to have a more "practical" degree. Joke on me. And golly, NO, I do NOT consider Bob Jones University an academic institution (I don't know if they are at all accredited, nor should they be.)

I only raised the credential business because you talk as if every Christian is from the red states, or from red thinking at least, and you cannot fathom that highly INTELLIGENT people, with real university degrees would 1) actually believe in God and 2) give up worldly goods do His work.

Have you never heard of scholars like C.S. Lewis, arguing at Cambridge in his day?

Look at people like King, Ghandhi, Mother Theresa. What gives people that kind of vision and strength? Look up the personal stories of Archbishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela. Who would not want some of the resilience and endurance they have had?

I blame the Bush Gang. They literally worship the Great Owl out in Bohemian Grove, and really are trying to DESTROY the Christian churches in America, because they know there are pots of resistence there.

I am distraught over the amounts of money these heretical groups have (and they ARE "heretical"--like the Mormons, they have little to do with traditional Christian creeds.) They play radio stations that spout hate and ignorance, only couched in "Christian" terms. People get confused. This is why the Pope is so worried about the movie especially of "The DaVinci Code." People make up their own religion in America, and imitating us, in the rest of the western world. It is a strength falling into weakness, being pushed by the same Secret Government, whatever you want to call it, that gave us Operation Paperclip and MK-ULTRA.

And good liberals are just not seeing the danger. Where do you think the word "liberal" came from in the first place? I know, you'll probably say Hobbes or Locke or some such. We are losing our scholars, and the masses are derisive anyway.

BTW--I cannot understand your first sentence. I certainly do NOT blame God for what the Bushies are doing!

Of course I've never heard of C.S. Lewis. :eyes:

Of course I'm surrounded by the "Christian" right. Exactly! My family members who are Episcopalians, all of whom are highly educated and intelligent (doctors, attorneys, PhD holders, MBA, etc), are typical fundies.

It seems that YOU cannot accept that many of us, who are "highly educated and intelligent people" do not believe in your "God."

My first statement was alluding to your remark that a mood coming over a crowd can be attributed to "God."

...please refer to post #8.

You are free to believe whatever you like. I have been reading DU since 2001, and am just tired of all the ignorant Christian bashing. I cannot understand, really it is hard, after the life I have led, intimate in so many people's lives, how one can think they know a lot, yet throw out the whole history of Christian experience and culture.

But it is happening everywhere, right in front of my eyes.

Sorry--gotta go to church. Holy week.

People here are not denying any historical facts. One can can hold historical knowledge of Christianity and the culture of such and still not believe a "Christian." I know Jews who know more about Christianity, than many so called "Christians."

Just because Christianity has existed for thousands of years, doesn't mean everything about it, including it's dogma, is truth. That is another fallacious argument. "It has been this way a long time, therefore it's right."

... surrounded by the so-called Christian right. Seems like they are taking over the country!

edited for poetic ambiguity & potent circuitousness

what other 'objet du belief' is more appropriately defined within the vaguest parameters of belief than the suggestion of spirituality- this unprovable thing that is empathically accepted by the otherwise logical mind. doesn't belief imply this? even for those who only believe in "what's real, right here in front of me." the 'reality' does not even require ontologial acknowledgement to exist, or does it?
i sense that- of the creature capable of intelligence and superstition- some believe and others 'know.' even if that which is 'known' is infinite or incalculable or merely symbolically perceived; to an unbeliever, it is not a matter for consideration. once, though, one gives up the egocentric sensation of personal pragmatism and acknowledges that inherent flaw of acceptance and admits to belief- well there's no going back from there and the object of belief cannot conjure any more validity than the act of belief.

I do believe that if there are eleven dimensions as the quantum physicists have theorized, one of them is possibly a spiritual one or actually a field of energy that is part of our world. We just don't perceive it because our senses only allows us to actually detect four dimensions, height, width, depth and time.

Most lower forms of life have no concept of time and although they live in time don't percieve it like we do. Therefore, I think that although we can perceive four dimensions and don't the other seven, it doesn't mean that we don't experience them as part of our existence. Our five senses can only measure four of the dimensions and we only "feel" that there might be more and quantum physics says their equations don't work unless eleven dimensions are figured in.

:shrug:

Your post brings up some really good points.

Since string theory suggests that the "extra" spatial dimensions are very small and curled up, I don't see how you can fit spirituality within that. I think the fact that you mix up dimension with "a field of energy" (two completely different concepts) is a pretty strong sign that you're on the wrong track. This is just semantic confusion. Bluntly, unless you understand the maths of Calabi-Yau spaces, I think you're clutching at straws.

in this physical world, and statistical modeling is ok by me-but this isn't about methodology nor modeling.

You are onto something about semantics though, which I addressed in an earlier post.

basis and I don't pretend to, but what I have read posits the fact that strings can escape into other universes or dimensions. Whose to say that those strings aren't what is called by religion souls? This is a big and fascinating universe. Do ameobas know we exist? I doubt it, but we know they exist because we were able to discover a microscopic world. Stayed tuned. The physicists might be able to discover by scientific method one of these days what we always suspected but couldn't prove.

Why not fairies, or invisible pink unicorns, or just fundamental particles? And since your body contains bazillions of strings (if string theory is correct), and so do this here pen, desk and chair, it seems a huge leap to associate them with souls. How many souls does a pen have? Mediaeval theologians argued about how many angels could dance upon the head of a pin: is America returning to those days?

So rather than deferring to the experts, they credit magic/mysticism/supernatural/religiuos beings. Just as humans of primitive cultures did.

"The Gods are angry and caused the earth to shake."
"The devil made him do it."
"He is evil an possesed by a demon."

:eyes:

:-). Many cultures have believed in spirits that look after things or embody the essence of something like a stream or tree. Whose to say that these aren't inhabitants of other dimensions as well as ours. I mean I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either. Just saying if I can't see it, hear it, feel it, smell it or taste it that it doesn't exist isn't really a very valid premise.

:dem::kick:

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http://www.farsight.org/

Fascinating if not definitely weird stuff.

by "companies" like SAIC. They are still doing "research" and looking for volunteers.
http://www.lfr.org/csl/index.shtml

who would unscientifically cast their minds across vast distances to spy on our enemies. Not that I hold much creedence in our Government's policies but it just goes to show that even in the sterile halls of US intelligence there is some weight given to new age thinking (read old world knowledge)

i cut a lot of this out if anyone is interested. i find not many on this board interested in this stuff. if you want the full let me know. there are different interpretations of 12 dimensions since we all uniquely walk life, but this is an example



First Dimension: Infinite Creation

The first dimension is as the last. It is first cause and original thought. Nothing exists before it or after it although all thought and all experience moves beyond it. The first dimension is the Will of the Creator and as a creator your will is your first cause and original thought. As pure spirit you aligned with first cause and experienced yourself as the all and as the freedom to experience all. Choice is born of freedom and so you were presented with many choices and eventually settled upon a path that has brought you to this moment and will continue to expand beyond it. As the All the first dimension is always expanding, it is infinite as is its ability to create. As an extension of infinite creation you also have infinite ability to create and to be creative. Of necessity, creativity includes the ability to destroy.

Second Dimension: Realm of Pure Consciousness

The second dimension is the beginning of separation and individualization; it is also the beginning of the return to oneness.

Third Dimension: Progressive Evolution

The third dimension is the direct experience of cause and effect as a result of free will and choice. All of the awareness gained by the individual in second dimensional experience serves as the foundation for the third dimension. If the second dimension is the blueprint, the third dimension is the architecture.

Fourth Dimension: Proving Ground

The fourth dimension is to the fifth dimension what the second dimension is to the third; it is that which makes it possible. It is the thought, blueprint and dimensional infrastructure of the creative mind that will assist in physicalizing the fifth dimension. The fourth dimension is perfected in the third, tempered so to speak. The fourth dimension is as a manual for the fifth dimension.

Fifth Dimension: Living in Circular Time

The fifth dimension is your near future. Instinctively, you are moving toward with it precision and grace even when it does not seem like it. The fifth dimension is not better than the third dimension, but it is clearer.

Sixth Dimension: A Cosmic Bridge

The sixth dimension is often bypassed in favor of others. It is less understood than dimensions that offer instant change, access to information or portals to expanded experience. The sixth dimension can be thought of as a country back road rather than a well-traveled highway. Its etheric terrain is different, rough and bumpy, energetically speaking. It is the dimension of the seeker. It welcomes those who are willing to see beyond the obvious.

Seventh Dimension: Good Fortune

Many beings find seventh dimensional experience very delightful. It is a creative dimension and somewhat magical at that. It is considered the dimension of good fortune because it is here that one truly learns the art of creative manifestation.

Eighth Dimension: The Universal Traveler

The eighth dimension is the dimension of the universal traveler. It is here that many choices, exchanges and decisions are made. For instance, if you perchance express an interest in withdrawing from your physical body, an eighth dimensional being would assist you with that decision. This being may show you possibilities that you may not have considered given the limited experience offered by the other dimensions. You may be shown the greater alignment understood by your soul elsewhere so that your physical undertaking will seem more purposeful.


Ninth Dimension: The Final Exam

This dimension invites completions, attainments and transformations of a permanent kind. It is the dimension of the final exam, but any perceived barriers or boundaries are only self-imposed. It is the dimension that invites checking and double-checking of all that one is or believes. It is the dimension of the Will.

Tenth Dimension: Beginnings, Paradoxes and Questions

Little will be said of this dimension and the next as well. The tenth dimension requires an understanding of the self as more than the self in order to be well understood.

Eleventh Dimension: Supporting Angelic Energies

The eleventh dimension is the access point or place of intercession invoked by those of angelic origin. It is the dimension where prayers are answers, or better put, it is the dimension that creates the spheres of divine energy that offer angelic guidance and support.


Twelfth Dimension: The Universal Mind

The twelfth dimension blends mind, consciousness and awareness with heart, soul and purpose. In the twelfth dimension the mind no longer exists as an individual aspect of self, but as an expanded awareness of united purpose. This is the dimension of the universal mind which exists beyond the linear past, present or future.

You've got such a mix of concepts there that using the single term "dimension" for them seems meaningless. You could substitute any abstract noun for "dimension" without any loss (or addition) of sense.

with numbers like these, it's obvious that we as a society won't be making any substantial advances anytime soon...surely not in our lifetimes.
people need to stop believing in fairie dust and magic moonbeams and get a better grip on the reality of our situation- we're on our own here on our planet, and it's up to us to make it work.

that have not been fully explored or explained. Einstein must be rolling over in his grave.

that so many people are magic-challenged.

:-(

to believe that the the earth and planets revolved around the sun instead of the sun and planets revolving around the earth.

Or how about when diseases where believed to be caused by demons? Well, they weren't wrong. It's just the word was wrong when science identified the demons as being bacteria and other microscopic and very real forms.

I try to have an open mind to all these ideas, even the ones that are far out because one never knows if it's the just word was wrong but the actuality very real.

challenged. that "magical" crowd is in the majority and they rule the country right now.

"magical" crowd you talk about that is ruling the country right now, is actually a minority, and would burn the rest of us at the stake if they could.

It is a long story, I'll try to make it short--we buried my father in Ohio, where my mother's family goes back to 1812. I had responsibilities which tied me to Chicago until I could grab my music, the pall, the cross, my clergyman husband and jump in the car to roll east on I-80.

The snow was horizontal in the midst of December 1996, with temperatures around 0. I asked my husband, the driver, to please pull into the first oasis after we made it into Indiana, because I wanted to stop at the bathroom, then SLEEP, as I had not slept in 2 1/2 days.

Well, he missed it, and did I squeal as it rolled past, the weather piling up more and more snow. I begged him to keep his eyes peeled for the next, so he did, and we pulled in, one of the few cars ANYWHERE.

We pulled into the parking space right by the front door of the oasis building. I looked up and saw, off the front left bumper, my one and only brother! and turned to my right, and saw with a shock, my sister-in-law sitting in the passenger seat of the car right next to us!

We all rushed through the snow inside, too shocked by this experience, and the events of the previous several days, to say much more than, okay, this is what will happen, and we'll take care of that, kind of talk. Then we went to our cars and took off again.

Now. My brother runs his own theatre in Milwaukee, and both of them are actors. My sister-in-law is always late for everything, my brother always in a hurry. They had no idea WHEN they would start for the funeral, which was not until the following day. There are THOUSANDS of cars on the Indiana turnpike on any given day, and though there were fewer cars due to the weather, WHAT IS THE CHANCE THAT IN THE TWO MINUTES WE SPENT THERE THAT OUR TWO CARS WOULD PULL IN NEXT TO EACH OTHER when they were coming from Milwaukee and we from Chicago's south side??!!

I have a graduate degree in regression analysis, which is why I believe the exit polls are definitive in our stolen elections, and have studied logic and statistics, and the chance of this "just happening," is INFINITESIMAL.

Soooooo...would you say that it was "magic?"

I don't like the idea of magic, either black or white, or in the sense of alchemy. Those speak to the desire of humans to exert power or control over others.

But I do believe in healing. I believe in love. I believe that when we die we are literally between heaven and earth, or even on the way to dying, as when one is in the hospital bed, and seems to see loved ones from the past. I believe our loved ones look over our shoulder, and love us from on high. And I believe that God made and sustains us all.

What happened to us, and there were a couple more "breakthrough" events, I believe was sent from a loving Father in answer to my prayer to help my brother to faith. He is a skeptic, like you.

What about the countless moments in your life when some amazing coincidence could happen... but didn't? That evens up the score, but, human nature being what it is, we never think "wow, nothing remarkable happened just now!"

coincidence that you would meet your brother on the expressway bound for the same destination- i wouldn't by any means consider it "magic" or the chances "infinitesimal"...
the arrogance comes in on your part- that you would think that a supreme being whom you believe to be responsible for all matter and life that exists in the universe, would take time out of his busy schedule, just to see to it that the two of you meet up along the way...

sheesh...:eyes:

discussions on DU?

Some of you sound so fundamentalistic, really, in the true meaning of the word.

There is no earthly way two people, involving three states, involving countless little details and moment changing decisions along the way, could "coincidentally" meet like that for the two minutes we were there. Like saying Oswald acted alone.

Amazing.

It is not arrogant, dear Lib. God's power and love are there for you, too. He loves ALL the ones He's made.

since there is only ONE major route from both Milwaukee and Chicago to the same destination, for the same event, i really am not at all astounded by the coincidence of two people meeting along the way.

it is clear that you don't understand logic, nor quite comprehend the actual size of the universe.

you religoids really amuse me sometimes :hi:

,...on everything.

Yup. Small minds operate in such a way that the mysteries which the WHOLE of humanity must still face,...is simply unacceptable 'cause it's too intimidating and there is no room whatsoever for imagination or hope or courage or dreams; well, except for Einstein (who stated that imagination is greater than knowledge), humanity who has floated on hope to survive and advance, the courage of all those who have taken a stand even when others tear them down, and Dr. King who had a dream.

the religoids believe they have the trademark patent & copyright on everything that their god supposedly bequethed to them...as well as all the answers in their handy-dandy little guidebook.

they "believe" in God. One anecdotal example has not convinced me. I'm not impressed.

How many times are you going to state what degree you have? Many of us have done grad work or have grad degrees. So what. Your degree is in no way related to this topic of whether or not a supernatural realm or mystic being called "God" exists. That is a fallacious argument, "false authority."

I believe our loved ones look over our shoulder, and love us from on high. And I believe that God made and sustains us all.

You are entitled to your "beliefs" but you have no right claiming to know or that you are an authority and state that those of us who don't "believe" are wrong.

It's glaringly obvious that someone lacks basic reasoning skills.

...as well as offered my husband's experience and training as a physicist, because you all were discussing string theory. I would have assumed that a history major also studied statistics and probability theory, but perhaps not at the undergrad level.

It is mathematically incalculable to predict our meeting in the snow in Indiana as likely. That is a scientific concept, you see.

It is like TruthIsAll's discussions on the Elections threads about the impossibility of the exit poll data coming out and squaring with the final polling numbers--there is NO WAY this was RANDOM. This in itself indicates FRAUD.

Nor was my running into my brother RANDOM, ie, "coincidental." This, to me, indicates God.

I did not mean to sound as if I thought myself "superior"--but I am very tired of folks disregarding things so obvious to some of us with your own "put down" airs (like the "fairy tale" remark below.) The majority of Christians in this country are NOT the Dominionists, the so-called "Christian" right. They are simply the ones with the megaphone, and the money.

the witches and shamans were the one to heal and create agriculture. It's all relative (sorry Albert)

but irrational belief in fairy tales doesn't fall under the category of "thinking".

LMAO! How ironic that the one who claims superiority in logic, is the one positing illogical arguments and exhibiting a lack of rational reasoning skills.

skeptic who decries "fairie dust and magic moonbeams" and the earnest acolyte who describes in great detail the various dimensions of the spiritual realm.

I think a long human history has shown us good evidence that there is an unseen world of which we are a part, but only dimly aware, and that we are certainly time- and space-bound while we live on this earth, and can agree only on what we can observe. A philosophy that allows both a spiritual and material existence seems to address the issue, and strikes a balance. Consider Aristotle's Golden Mean, the Buddha's Middle Way.

"I think a long human history has shown us good evidence that there is an unseen world of which we are a part, but only dimly aware...

there is no "evidence"- that's why it's called "faith"...that's what the churchoids and religoids always say.

I wonder what it would be like to live on a planet of rational, reasonable-minded beings..???

it seems we'll never know.

many spiritual traditions agree on certain broad points. Now you can call any religious person insane if you wish, and there's been plenty of religious insanity over the years. But the broad issues agreed upon point to a creative force, a higher mind, and existence beyond the constraints of time and space.

You imply that people who posit a spirit world are not rational or reasonable. Is this truly your position? Rather than seeing it as black or white, consider a continuum, with the religiously insane at one end and the rigid skeptic at the other. I think the truth lies in between, as it does in so many aspects of life.

and yes, i have serious doubts about the true sanity of those that refuse to think rationally, and instead let their own self-doubt force them to cling to a non-sensical belief in the non-existant.

a creative force, an energy beyond what can be apprehended by the five senses. This is not hard to notice, if you've read much religion and philosophy. To cling stubbornly to logic may not produce the greatest truth, if logic doesn't allow anything beyond corporeal proof. I mean, I claimed for years to be an atheist, and worshipped at the altar of Reason, and had the obvious support for such a position, because after all, if it can't be logically proven, it doesn't exist, right? But many years later, I can see a bigger picture and understand the "I see it when I believe it" position along with the "I believe it when I see it" one. And the key, I think, is being able to allow both ideas together. I don't refuse to think rationally, but I am learning some of the limits of rationality.

i went the other way- from someone who was raised in the christian faith, and swallowed it ALL- hook, line, and sinker-
to someone who has had that fog removed from my thinking, and realizes that we live in a REAL world that needs REAL answers, not wishful thinking and reliance on something that isn't even there.

raised in a very restrictive kind of faith, shook that off over time and became totally rational, and now am more spiritual, simply because I've found that my life works better this way. I suspect I'm quite a bit older than you, and perhaps there are more cycles left in each of us yet. I think the reason we're on this earth for so many years is that it takes a long time to figure these things out.

does not imply that you rely on it for your life.

The only rational position at this time is that nobody knows if there is a god or spiritual force.

To make a definitive declaration that something is non existant is irrational.

So is a difinitive declaration that something exists without proof.

I find my "beliefs" in flux all the time. I have chosen my beliefs for today. They change based on the information and experiences I have. We all do this. I think those that don't are the ones not thinking rationally.

That doesn't make one side of the argument less dogmatic than the other.

The athiest who flat out says there is no possibility of something that would ever be agreed to be proof of the spiritual is being as closed minded as someone who answers "God did it." to anything that could be better explained by science.

I think both the "forget the facts, The Bible says so!" religious,and the "I know everything! You believe in fairy tales!" atheists are both showing signs of arrogance.

I am not saying that I know better. I'm saying that I don't know.

Think about this:

People who discount people's beliefs in religion often criticize them for not applying the scientific method to the theories and ideas that are presented in their religious texts or traditions.

The scientific method works really well to help determine truth, so people use it to examine hypotheses and theories, and accept that it is the standard by which we will attempt to determine truth.

The problem is, what if there is a better method to determine truth?

How can you test the scientific method without using it?

What if it's flawed? How will we know if we use it to test thoeries, including the validity of the scientific method?

I don't know if there is a better way to determine truth, but to claim that The Scientific Method is inviolate, and not subject to review is as dogmatic as claims that the Bible has all the answers.

Such as yourself I suppose. People who are intolerant of, and belittle others. Doesn't sound much different than the world we are in.

if that is what you are talking about, no thanks!

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I also agree with the last statement - there is no way to analyze. But, like I said, I want to believe so I choose to believe.

:hi:

:eyes:

"Space, Time and Beyond" by Bob Toben and Fred Alan Wolf describes how consciousness may be the master field of the universe.

All I know is the more I learn, the less I know. Even have a link:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/krasnow/abstracts_frames/abs97/wolfbooks.html

aside-I believe that too!

And please do not answer with, "No much, you?"

some were material proof...but such a long sad story it's difficult to express or type out on this computer.
For all those out there...I have proof! I had been an Atheist before this experience and now I am a believer.

... and ultimately that is all that matters.

Someone asked me what I believe and I said that I did not believe. I either know or I do not know.

that I've had one personal experience that I would describe as in "intervention." By whom I cannot say...angelic, or a guide? I wouldn't be so arrogant to profess it to be God. I have had communications from those that are no longer here, but no, I don't hear voices. These communications were more than that. Two friends have seen spirits, and another has precognitive dreams.

Some day we will understand the unexplainable.

Not a matter of "belief"...a matter of knowing from a deep deep place...not doubts no hopes...a surety.

welcome to DU LeahD :hi:



BTW :hi:btd :hug:
DR

:hug:

And aren't we fortunate that we trust our own experiences, don't need confirmation from others?

Nice avatar too!

Every day I'm amazed that this mass of molecules, chemical compounds, flesh, blood, bone, and cartilege that's reading, thinking, and typing right now has a sense of self-awareness and of being something other than just a mass of molecules, chemical compounds, and flesh.

The invisible and nonexistent look much alike.
-- Delos B. McKown

but basically the argument that there are real things beyond the physical is one that cannot be subjected to any form of testing. It is simply a claim that things which we don't understand in physical terms are beyond of our ability to understand in physical terms. Ignorance of the physical nature of something does not remove it from the physical realm nor imply a non-physical nature, it only says "we don't know".

How do you distinguish between those things which you don't yet know from those which you cannot know?

Religion being used for killing. How more repugnant can we get?

And if I try I can touch that place, but it requires removing all manner of political and material clutter from the brain through self deprivation (fasting and meditating instead of reading, TV, radio, or music)and asking my Creator to show me his will.

Every time I do this -- which is rarely because I'm a creature of habit -- I gain a wisdom that no book, no preacher, no human can give, and it ALWAYS leads to a better love and appreciation of neighbor, even the most unlovable. IOW, when I deprive the ego (the "I") I see the bigger picture and it is always overflowing with hope and contentment. No fear of death or anxiety of daily needs.

It's a wonderful thing and I blame Bush for preventing me from making attempts to get there again. ;-)

meditating, quieting the mind and going within is not even close to having an outside "creator" show "his will".

There is so much beyond "religion" and man's limited vision of a human oriented "god" who must be obeyed.....

that's why I couldn't answer the poll question as phrased.

Bias of poll writer shows, perhaps it was a deliberate frame.

anything which is shy of a camera, a thermometer, an(electron)microscope, a(radio)telescope, etc. If it can't be seen, touched, probed,smelt, heard or deduced mathematically (in a logically consistent mathematical plenum)there is-- based on the available evidence--0 reason to believe it exists. Thats good enough for me.

speculating on what was once "undetectable", many new discoveries in science and technology support the possibility of a spiritual dimension imho.

How one could get by on such a limited perspective baffles me. BTW, I am a scientist, I just don't care for such hubris.

and I have no way of ever understanding it.

"The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. But how can you buy or sell the sky? The land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

"Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every meadow, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.

"We know the sap which courses through the trees as we know the blood that courses through our veins. We are a part of the earth and it is a part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters. The bear, the deer, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crest, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man, all belong to the same family.

"The shining waters that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water, but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell our land, you must remember that it is sacred. Each ghostly reflection in the clear waters of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

"The rivers are our brothers. They quinch our thirst. They carry our canoes and feed our children. So you must give to the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.

"If we sell our land, remember the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all life it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sight. The wind also gives our children the spirit of life. So if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow flowers.

"Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.

"This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

"One thing we know: our god is also your god. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap comtempt on its creator.

"Your destiny is a mystery to us. What will happen when the buffalo are all slaughtered? The wild horses tamed? What will happen when the secret corners of the forest are heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills is blotted by talking wires? Where will the thicket be? Gone! Where will the eagle be? Gone! And what is it to say goodbye to the swift pony and the hunt? The end of living and the beginning of survival.

"When the last Red Man has vanished with his wilderness and his memory is only a shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, will these shores and forests still be here? Will there be any of the spirit of my people left?

"We love this earth as a newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. So, if we sell you our land, love it as we have loved it. Care for it as we have cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land as it is when you received it. Preserve the land for all children and love it, as God loves us all.

"As we are a part of the land, you too are part of the land. This earth is precious to us. It is also precious to you. One thing we know: there is only one God. No man, be he Red Man or White Man, can be apart. We are brothers after all."

Chief Seattle

However, the "many worlds" concept of reality (space and time), "global conscienceness" and the "Omega" point seems plausable. But I doubt if the scientific method can be used to validate these concepts.

If we could manufacture singularities, it seems to me like we could validate the "many worlds" concept of reality though. Build a vehicle to travel to alternate world timelines. But that wouldn't do a single thing to show that a soul exists, the ghost in the machine.

Maybe if a machine could be made self-aware or not, then the idea of the ghost in a machine could be determined to be true or untrue.

I have been fortunate (or not depending o n your POV) enough to have had many experiences that to me defied coventional science. When something physical is affected by something "unseen" it tends to make belief in a very vibrant spiritual dimension easier.

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I've had some doozies believe me.

I personally think it's just a recognition that the natural world is beautiful, even when it's dangerous, that death is natural, and that we're all connected as a species and should help one another.

I don't believe in any alternate dimension where my "soul" will go to.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." ~ Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

I find discussions of this sort invariably saddening. Those who style themselves "rationalists", for whom all the experiences of life are reducible to chemical interactions, seem to generally regard others' departures from their materialist orthodoxy with scorn.

As dismayed as they seem to be by the fact that many of us perceive "realms"/"dimensions" beyond the mere physical, I am in turn just as dismayed at the narrowness of their own perceptions.

I have no interest in changing their minds -- let them be content with their view -- but it saddens me, because I feel very profoundly that the lack of the sense of the Sacred is one of the main precipitating factors in the awful injustices and imbalances of our world.

I do not "believe", I perceive, I experience -- and as LeahD and DR said upthread, I know. This knowing is gnosis; subjective inner-knowing, insight, direct experience.

As I perceive the world, there are natural laws which apply to all realms, seen and unseen. What is often called "magic" or "supernatural" are merely the workings of the natural laws of the unseen world.

I do not "believe" in "god". I experience Divinity as the whole of Beingness, not as a being. All is Sacred. The Universe is pure Consciousness of which all sentience is a part, just as a single drop of ocean water is no different than the ocean itself -- As Above, So Below. The Microcosm reflects the Macrocosm.

This is how I experience the world. The Nagual, Wakantanka, the Buddha field, Satcitananda... One opens the doors of perception and there it all is, as "real" as any materialist "reality".

Arguments cannot change perception...

sw

O8)

I'm glad you found it -- was kind of afraid it would be lost in the chatter, being late to the thread and all.

Thanks for opening up the question to begin with, it's a good poll.

Bless you,
sw

Philosophical naturalism is the basis of modern science, and in the absence of any other world view which has had the success that science has in explaining the workings of the universe, I will forgo "spiritual dimension" in favor of reality.

Care to expand on semantics a bit more, BuyingThyme?