Schaivo needs nourishment like WE all do

There are no machines keeping her alive. I have read that she is not "brain dead".

She is severely disabled/handicapped... THAT to me blurs the lines of what is right and what isn't

As long as all she needs is food to survive/live, then I could see the parents point. Although I must admit from what I have heard, I wouldn't want to be alive in that same condition.

Being severely disabled doesn't mean that you should die. It should be and option though and since Schaivo doesn't have a "living will", it comes down to a "he said, she said" situation.

I really feel sorry for all parties involved, but I don't understand all of the media attention on this and what actually is keeping this story alive and on the news day in and day out. While tragic, I don't consider this daily headline news. Blast me if you will, but I believe that this is a common occurrence. I believe that the more attention we pay to it makes us directly responsible for keeping the story alive.

I have seen so many posts on the DU on Shaivo, why don't we just make a separate forum listing/group for this topic since it seems to spark so much attention.

This whole situation is being used as a political football by both sides and I am sick of it.

"I really feel sorry for all parties involved, but I don't understand all of the media attention on this and what actually is keeping this story alive and on the news day in and day out. ...

I have seen so many posts on the DU on Shaivo, why don't we just make a separate forum listing/group for this topic since it seems to spark so much attention...

This whole situation is being used as a political football by both sides and I am sick of it."


:freak:

forum?

My opinion, is my opinion and obviously not the majority's opinio and in the scheme of things, doesn't really matter. So, as long as it is so popular - why not?

the whole point of contention IS the definition of her condition.

the only people privy to that are her doctors, nurses, and now of course, the courts.

since it's protected info, I don't know why anyone would voice an opinion based on what they've read.

people who make statements like this have absolutely no idea how many thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people die like this in this country every year, by choice.

People sign living wills every day that specify they don't want artificial means of nutrition, because that quality of life for some is no life at all. I think Terri's parents are opposing this for religious reasons, because they think that is a form of suicide, and I think that fundies are against it for the same reason. I don't believe that, and I don't want wingnuts making this decision for me. (For them committing suicide means you burn in hell for eternity; I'm not worried about that, on the off chance they are right and the heaven/hell thing turns out to be the case, then I'd rather be in hell than spend eternity with those nutjobs).

on the USSC

it's really obvious at this point

w/o all of this coverage on this case can't it? Bush has done pretty well so far in the last 4 years, hasn't he?

need an MRI.

I think they want to pave the way to abortion. The groups that foot the bill for the Schindler's endless court costs are Right to Life groups.

publics attention from other news stories that would affect their lives more directly and cause further deterioration of Bush's lagging support.

Don't you think that it may be possible that this story is purposely being kept in the forefront so that Bushco can regroup and refine his plan of attack on SS and other things?

Bush popularity ratings were suffering because of SS, now people are mainly paying attention to this case.

I do not think that the Shivo case is used to divert attention away from issues that are troublesome to Bush. I don't think lack of public support on ANY issue troubles Bush. He pushes his agenda regardless of political cost to him, because he does not think he needs any. This is not a democracy anymore.

to divert the public's attention so that they can replot?

The plot as you call it, has been achieved - IMO. Fascism is most likely here, we just don't want to see it.

over it. So yes, they need to "plot" to get support and regain popularity. Besides if they fly beneath the radar, they can get some more of the plans implemented.

I still hold out hope for our country, although it grows dimmer as time goes on.

Bush made it known to Dems. that they would suffer the political consequences if they don't support at least some aspect of his SS "reform". As if he could meter out consequences - or can he? Political consequences should lay in the hands of the voters.

the GOP controls all the news stories - they control the media.

they are not doing this to divert from other news stories.

if they wanted to divert from other news stories, all they have to do is not mention them in the first place.

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a tonic for cynicism.

Thanks!

This case is all over the news and blogs so it only makes sense that it also is a dominating factor here. This too shall pass.

What is keeping Terri alive is her brain stem. Her cereberal cortex no longer exists. It has been fundamentally replaced with spinal fluid.

Something else that should be noted is when they talk about feeding tubes, they aren't talking about a friendly glucose drip. Terri would be unable take nutrition orally.

what does the cerebral cortex do? And is there a continual deterioration of the brain?

It is memory, thinking, consciousness, and personality. The lower brain is breathing and circulation.

She's not home.

--IMM

She has no awareness, no emotions, no personality, no judgment, no concsiousness. She cannot even FORM A THOUGHT in her head, much less speak it. She most likely cannot hear, or sense touch, or smell or taste. She also cannot move voluntarily (on her own).

Everything that made her "Terri" is GONE. Permanently. You don't re-grow your brain. She is in a VERY bad situation. And it will not get better. If they re-inserted the tube, she would lie in that hospital bed until death from pneumonia or some other infection.

And the feed tube IS life support.

You can find a summary herem but read teh ENTIRE report.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html

Then come back here and post.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

for future referral.

Now who gets the $5 ?

P.S. It constantly amazes me that when someone goes against the grain and honestly questions something on a forum that is known as "The big tent party", people go on the attack so quickly and cannot seem to just "discuss/explain" positions.

Sometimes people just want things explained. I honestly had not paid a whole lot of attention to this case, I saw things on it here and there, but lately that is all that is on the news shows. So I figured it must be time to ask questions and get enlightened.

So don't blame me for your shortcomings in communication.

actual "classification" of her condition. Since someone "nicely" explained that feeding tubes are considered life support and that chemicals are being pumped into her, I now understand that part of it.

So, some people GOT my post and others like you didn't.

I still stick to my opinion that this story is simply a diversion from other things going on in this country.

for discussion.

those were the openings, besides most of the point of the post was the attention that the story seems to be getting. Not the ethical issue. I didn't say that I thought it was wrong for feeding tubes to be taken away. I didn't understand that the feeding tubes were technically thought of as "life support" and I didn't know the the feeding tubes had chemicals being pumped into her.

Some of the responses recognized my ignorance and educated me, they saw the uncertainty and responded appropriately.

By the way, I think that she be allowed to die.

I just want clarity on the terminology as far as ...disabled/vegtable/coma...

She is not in a coma. All higher order thinking occurs in the cerebral cortex. Her cerebral cortex has disintegrated and the empty cavity is filled with spinal fluid. This means the only remaining functions of her brain are autonomic: reflexes, control of vitals (heart, lungs). Her capacities are similiar to a lower life form, a fish for instance. This is why she has a vacant look and is not responsive in any way. (ie Her eyes blink out of reflex).

Legally, she is disabled, profoundly disabled. But, this is not a disability rights issue in the way the fundies are twisting it to be. It's an end of life decision. Regardless, approx 70% of the disability activists community supports assisted suicide. Their stand is that NO ONE, including those with disabilities, should be denied their right to end medical treatment.

This thing has all the earmarks of a feeding frency for the Right. They have stopped thinking (even more than ususal) and are just riding this, not seeing that it is leading them over a cliff.

I really hope Jeb is stupid enough to kidnap Mrs. Schiavo. The backlash will be felt all the way to Dick Cheney's secret location.

Please let me know what you think after your read the report. Privately if you prefer.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

or anyone else besides Terri Schaivo. The "he said/she said" is a they (2 others besides MS) said it is her wish. This is what her parents don't care about...HER wishes. Even if she had a written document, signed and legal, they would still be taking the same path.

Shivo's parents claim that her faith as a Catholic would not have allowed her to make such a wish.

They don't need proof. They need doubt, and they got that.

The law works in favor of those who make law. The newest example was the bankrupcy bill passed just a few weeks ago. I do not believe we are a Nation of Laws any longer. I really hope I'm wrong about everything.

19 times.

Shivo's parents use the lack of a signed living will by Terry to create doubt on the courts decision.

The parents 'doubted' the disagreement was heard in the court(s). Please show where there was 'doubt on the courts decision.'

The Right to Life groups that support the parents and the Media that feeds on this privat tragedy have created enough doubt that Congress stepped in. Court decisions they don't like are not respected. I'm not saying they have legal merits, I'm saying they want what they want and they want it now. And they have enough cloud/pull to make it so.

Now you're saying the RTL groups.

I'm not disagreeing that RTL have manipulated this tragic personal family situation. They have created a powderkeg that I fear is ready to blow and Terri Schiavo's passing just may be the match that sparks it.

I also agree with you that they (the Schindlers but even moreso the religious extremist minority) don't respect court decisions that don't a) conform to their beliefs and b) force society to conform to their beliefs. They have created a Constitutional crisis and conflated every imagineable wedge issue into this. The heightened emotion is purposeful and calculated.

We seem to mostly agree on the Terri Schiavo situation. You've moved your original argument though from her parents claim it would be her wish. They would have to prove it.

I do not believe that the Schindlers have ulterior motives, they just grabbed on to the RTL groups (which I think have ulterior motives) because it lets them express a virtue central to THEIR lives, like defiance in the face of inevitable death.
I think at this point the parents would claim anything to be Terry's wish that is their wish. They almost treat Terry like their property.

The court found "clear and convincing" evidence that Mrs. Schiavo would not want to exist in her current state.

This has been adjudicated over two dozen times now by about 16 diffrent judges.

Read the court transcripts or at least read the GAL's report, or at least a summary:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

It's pretty obvious which side is riding this.

Besides having no brain, her wishes were "clearly and convincingly" determined by the court.

The right wingers are riding this for right to life, judicial selection, and make democrats look like murderers, purposes.

--IMM

I couldn't believe it. Right in the middle of her cortex there's an enormous cavity filled with fluid. Her brain looks like a doughnut.

Here are facts. Not opinions, but indisputable facts:

1) The vast majority of medical institutions define the feeding tube as life support equipment.

2) By most accounts, Terri Schiavo is in a Persistent Vegitative State. There are no documented cases of recovery from this particular affliction, which is not the same as other coma conditions.

3) The issue at hand is not a he-said, she-said any longer. Perhaps the media portrays it as such, but it is not. The heart of the issue is "Did Terri Schiavo receive due process under law?" The answer is yes, as has been affirmed by nearly every court.

4) As far as "he said, she said" is concerned, the courts are the one and only arbitrator in cases where no living will is present. In this case, the courts served as a fact finding committee, and found that Terri Schiavo did in fact not want to be kept on life support. Whether or not you, or anyone else agrees, is irrelevant, because the courts are the final word on the issue.

5) Because of #4, it is no longer in Michael Schiavo's hands, and the court has ordered that it is the will of Terri Schiavo, and not Michael Schiavo or the Schindler's, to have Terri removed from the feeding tube.

6) Democrats are not politicizing the issue. They have stayed far, far away on this one. It is the Republicans and Evangelists that have gone off the deep end.

It does not take much for Evangelicals to go off the deep end. They are going to take us all down with em. The very fact that it has gone so far already should be alarming to anybody who cares about the sep. of Church and State.

I think it's fad that is soon to see its end. Everyone was shaken up by 9/11, and when people are scared, they're driven towards religion. I think people are starting to see the problems and are getting sick of the religion overkill shoved down their throats. If there's one good thing to be said about American culture, it's that it is sometimes very convenient that we have such short attention spans for these sort of phenomenon.

In my humble opinion this religious phenomenon got created by Civil Rights, and the poeple who don't like them. They've been at it for a long time and they have been able to gather support from unsuspecting Christians.

It'll never completely go away, however, I do think it will subside with some time.

I don't want it to go away, I want it to stay in it's place - churches and homes, not Congress and Courts. I don't see anything wrong with religion as long as it does not dictate the course this country is taking.

that she isn't in a persistive vegetative state. If you have evidence, provide a link (that isn't political in nature). If she is in a vegetative state, only brain impulses from the brain stem are in working order which means only her organs can function. This in practical purposes means that her brain condition is fatal without artificially inserting a tube to provide nutrients. It also means there is no discomfort or stress due to dehydration if the tube is removed. It also means there is no functioning or cognitively functioning person there, only organs that can function. If my information is incorrect, let me know.

You've sucked a lot of kool-aid there about this story...not one based in the reality many, like myself, had had to face in similar situations.

Let's get this distortion cleared up. She's not suffering, can't eat, can't drink, can't chew, can't swallow...wouldn't know if she was being fed or not. Reattaching the tube just prolongs the suffering of all involved here and the end result will be the same...eventually she will die.

She's not severly disabled, like a handicapped person...she's a human pod with just a fraction of a brain that controls her breathing and vital signs...there's nothing else there, nothing that will be...she's braindead...her upper brain where the grey matter used to be is now just fluid. If you saw this poor shell of a person, you'd see a surreal image of "life".

If anything Democrats have stood by and said nothing while this farce rolls on. Few really got up in the House in that sham session and spoke loudly about how this issue is being used for partisan, divisive reasons...the epitome of cynicsm.

Now you should feel sorry for Terri...wish her 15 year limbo ends.

Get educated about having no cerebrum.

Hey, if you support keeping a brainless body alive by pumping food-products into her body and transporting poop away from it, I guess you live in a vastly different world than mine.

all those judges, just blow all that judiciary action off, huh?

You know better, I suppose?

She has VERY LITTLE OF HER BRAIN LEFT. She CANNOT FEEL ANYTHING.

She WILL NEVER RECOVER.

Even YOU said you wouldn't want to be kept this way. My GOD, have a bit of compassion, a bit of mercy, we wouldn't put a feeding tube in a DOG that had very little of its brain left, that would be considered cruel.

and in the news way too much, diverting our attention from some things that are pulling Bush's popularity down.

I feel sorry for the whole family and I said that I wouldn't want to be alive in her state means that I think she should be allowed to die! I don't agree with her HAVING to be kept alive to appease the parents and the rightwing crazies.

I just didn't know if feeding her through a tube was considered "life support", I have had that since cleared up. And I did think that she was "disabled" because she doesn't have a terminal disease. Maybe the vocabulary is wrong. I am just trying to get the real information and different points of views from here instead of listening to endless talking heads and spin masters.

They've been doing it since Jeb first stuck his nose in it a few years back, at the insistence of crazy groups like Randall Terry's Operation Rescue group, who also have no problem killing doctors.

Dems never DID poke their noses in this. Democrats believe this is a personal, private matter between families and doctors, and I agree.

And guess what? So does up to 70% of the public of ALL political affiliations.

If you are sick of the politicizing of it, start writing emails to Hannity, Scarborough, Limpballs, and all the elected repukes who have made a freaking CIRCUS of this woman.

is WHO DECIDES??? THAT is the BIG PICTURE. Do Americans have a right to privacy, free of inappropriate government intrusion? It's also about an INDEPENDENT judiciary. Terri's fate has been litigated to the point of absurdity. When does a judge's ruling stand? How about 19?

WHO is footing the bill for the Schindler's made-for-TV circus and WHY? What is THEIR AGENDA??? As you answer those questions for yourself you'll realize the underlying issues in this case do warrant serious attention.

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

I think the ultimate goal is a Christian theocracy for all those RTL groups, but I do not believe that their goal is shared by the global corporate elites. Corps want their own oligarchy, not Fundy land.

do. Let's just hook everyone up, that way no one ever has to really and truly die. I'm sorry but I disagree, and always will.

People who are saying it's different have yet to logically explain how medically administering one is ok, but medically administering the other is not.

People need oxygen just as much as they need h20/nutrients.

That is the entire point. The court has found, after hearing all the evidence, that she wouldn't want to be alive in her condition.

The issue is not what her parents want or what her husband wants or what Tom Delay, Congress, Pres Bush, Gov Bush, the Christian right or anyone else wants. The only issue is what Terri Schiavo wants.

There is no requirement under Fla law that there be a living will and their law provides that if there is none that a court should determine the person's intent after hearing all the evidence. That is what has in fact happened. It has been appealed, appealed, appealed and appealed again and every time the appellate courts have said the trial court made the right decision.

.

I suggest you stop arguing against it.

They say she is in a persistive vegetative state. No hope for recovery. Her brain is mostly fluid now, and the parts of her brain that are responsible for thought and feeling do not exist anymore.

As well, her husband, who she actually knew personally before she chose him as her life partner, disagrees with you.

This is a personal family matter. What we "think" doesn't matter. Her doctors, her husband and ultimately the courts are all that matters. And the courts have repeatedly sided with Mr. Schiavo and her physicians over the past 7 yrs. This has been litigated to death.

The circus surrounding this is tragic and we should never be privy to the personal private issues this family is dealing with, yet we are. But the reason why this IS significant is because Congress passed an unconstitutional bill because the Republicans decided that they didn't like the rulings that the judges have given. THAT is a big problem and it becomes our problem.

The laws are being virtally ignored by the rightwing crazies.

What else is new? Pathetic isn't it? I am sad to say but if someone tells me that they are Republican, I just want to choke them.
I am becoming so angry about what they are doing that I cannot excuse ANY Republican for staying with that party anymore.

She IS being kept alive by a machine. A feeding machine. She also had invasive surgery to have the tube inserted.

There is no difference between using technology to medically administer oxygen and using technology to medically administer H20/nutrients.

Those fundie nuts are now comparing her to an African American being denied to eat lunch at a counter due to his color. What a fucking SHAM! She is NOT being discriminated against.

So for, those freaks have tried to cry: feminism (she is an abused woman), disability rights, and now they are crying discrimination/segregation.

For fucks sake, now the fundie nuts are comparing her to Jesus who was ordered to death. FREAKS!

I'm glad they are getting so much coverage. It's giving people a chance to see how whacked out they are.

What worthless shit stains these assfucks are. Meanwhile millions of children go hungry and starve to death eventually every god damn mother fucking day.

it atrophied and was replaced by spinal fluid. There is no terri anymore, just a shell.

of many myths being proferred by the Right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3341688

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org