My issues with the Pope, and Today's Catholic Church

First let me clarify that I was raised in the Catholic Church of the 1970s and 1980s in Massachusetts. It was the time of liberation theology, and the nuns and priests that taught me were inspirational. We learned about the social responsibility inherent in Jesus' teachings-namely, showing compassion, accepting differences, and taking care of those less fortunate. Many of the nuns and priests I grew up with went to places like Africa and Latin America to help the poor, and literally tried to live by Jesus' word.

Why has the Church so profoundly deviated from these values? The answer lies in corruption in the Church's hierarchy, and the less-than-stellar leadership exhibited by the Pope.

For a man who lived through the Nazi occupation of Poland, it amazes me that he continues to condone hatred toward gays. He know full well what this can lead to, since he witnessed it first-hand. He calls gay marriage an ideology of evil. I would like to ask gay Catholics how they can continue to have faith in this man, who is supposedly infallible?

The Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century. Is this the same man who lived in occupied Poland, where nearly the entire Jewish population was wiped out?

In the Boston Archdiocese, Cardinal Law knowingly aided and abetted pedophiles for decades. What does the Holy Father do? He rewards Cardinal Law with a plum Vatican post, and thereby shelters him from further civil suits. He deprived Boston Catholics of closure, and betrayed their trust in the Church. It is under HIS LEADERSHIP that the Catholic church made children of its educational institutions sex slaves.

So now gay bashers, pedophiles, and anti-choice activists who murder abortion clinic doctors can sleep peacefully, knowing that the Pope is on their side in the Fight Against Evil.

I just have to wonder at WHAT point will liberal Catholics say enough is enough and walk away? If you go to church, if you put money in the plate, you ARE endorsing this. Would you belong to a country club or other organization that endorsed these kind of values?

I will go to Mass on Easter, but there is NO WAY I am giving the Church any more money. The Church needs to be held accountable for its sins, just like the sinner.

and i obviousLy agree.

i don't understand how ANYONE he's caLLed eviL can stiLL support him or the church.

What does your parish priest think about your points? If he's a problem--all parishes are not alike.

You can sit & seethe & let the collection plate pass in silence or you can speak out. There are Catholics working to reform the Church. And some of the clergy emphasize the social justice aspects & mention that capital punishment & unnecessary war are not "Pro Life."

At what point will liberal Catholics speak up? Nobody's been burned at the stake in quite a while.

you have to understand the scope of the anger here. This was the diocese with the largest number of pedophilia cases. One priest against a church hierarchy does no good. It's like one secretary trying to fight General Motors.

My mother and aunt (both in their seventies) are fairly fed up with many Church positions. On the other hand, they identify with the Church. Their solution is to pick and choose what they'll support. They are fairly critical of the Pope and REALLY dislike priests who tell them whom they should vote for. Neither one thinks confession is important, and both have a clear distinction in their mind between the teachings of Jesus and the rules of the Church.

I, as a nonbeliever, ask myself how they can reconcile selective endorsement of the Church's positions with their identification as Catholics, but I also figure it's their decision.

be a believer to understand. And as a gay person,if I were a believer, I could never belong to a church who puts so much weight into such an authoritarian figure like the pope and his condemnation of gays. but that's just me and not my business what others do I suppose. I can't help but wonder WTF though. :shrug:

My high school experience was rather strange because we had some of the more liberal nuns and then we had the old school nuns. Unfortunately, the latter mostly taught religion and we were submitted to day after day of pictures of aborted fetuses and anti-choice tirades.

I finally walked out in the early 80's when a man sitting in the foyer of my parish church demanded that my husband and I sign a petition saying abortion was murder and we opposed it under all circumstances or some such nonsense. We refused stating we were pro-choice and he started a scene. It wasn't so much the scene he made, it was the realization my liberal values were stronger than my faith in and allegiance to, a patriarchal, hierarchical, misogynist organization.

I had high hopes for this pope at first but his stances on abortion, AIDS, birth control, gay marriage and his stunning defense of pedophile priests have alienated me past the point of no return.

A Catholic priest visited my mother's house just before the 2004 election and told her she was required as a practicing Catholic to vote for Bush. She brought up her opposition to the war and he said that was not to be considered when she voted, only Bush's anti-choice stance, which made him the only acceptable candidate as far as the Church was concerned. She voted for Kerry but still continues to go to Church with her money-stuffed envelopes faithfully each Sunday.

more articulate way than I could have. Thank you.

I can no longer support a church that I view, with increasing clarity, as homphobic and misogynistic. I can't abide their stance on woman as priests, their refusal to appropriately deal with pedophile priests, their continued insistance on no realistic birth control, their politicization of abortion, their demonization of gays, enforced celibacy of the clergy, and the list goes on.

It is a shame that they cling more desperately to archaic ideas, while the church falls down around them. They got the last of my money several years ago - they'll get no more unless and until they change.

I hear ya. I can't be a cafeteria Catholic, accepting some of the teachings and rejecting others while giving them money to promote the issues I find most egregious an antithetical to Jesus' teaching. Jesus was a liberal and he would probably be considered just as dangerous an element by today's Church as he was by TPTB 2000 years ago. I'd love to hear what he'd say about the priceless art works hanging in the Vatican while kids go hungry all over the world.

I have fond memories of enjoying all the pomp and circumstance when I was a kid. It all seems so pointless now in face of the challenges of raising a family in today's society.

once Pope John Paul II came into the picture, that stopped.

Wouldn't they lose tax exception by promoting a candidate?

Oh wait, they're Christian.

on top of a ski mountain at 7AM on Easter Sunday.

I am looking forward to it.

And I am a Catholic.

I no longer attend mass and will not until the Vatican addresses the horror it, through it's cover up and protection of the criminals, perpetrated on innocent children through abuse and molestation.

The Vatican, imo, needs to divest itself of it's riches and compensate those who suffered from it's actions. Until it does so, dictates from the Vatican carry no credibility only re-enforces the double standard of 'do as I say not as I do'.

we've had tons of Church closings in Massachusetts-which has the largest percentage of Catholics of any state-because of the $$ siphoned to fight legal cases. Yet the Vatican sits on its riches. The Vatican is a corporation.

from the perspective of this non-Catholic. Is that an illusion or oversimplification? The most radical right-wingers like Randall Terry, Santorum, Mel Gibson etc., seem locked in the era of the Latin Mass and Papal autocracy.

Robert Novak, Jeb Bush, Laura Ingraham. They are all nuts and as a Catholic, I've always wondered who would switch to Catholicism other than to marry?

:crazy:

was molested by John Geoghan.

My husband and I figure we've saved quite a bit of $ not going to Mass every week;but we try to live the values that you write about because we learned them also

As soon as my father would permit me, I stopped attending the churches that were built with stained glass windows, marble and gold. I wondered why we were constantly asked to be more generous when I sat in a church that was adorned with gold chalices, marble statues.... I wondered why the church spent money on those things when they "needed" more money from us. I also wondered why they published a booklet showing how much each family donated to the church.

I also wondered why my priest, after not seeing me for a few months, stated that I had "grown up so much and my breasts were developed". I also wondered why this same priest (after I had run away from home and returned a week late) ask me first and foremost if I had been raped?

I wondered why my parents couldn't marry in a Catholic Church because my mother had been married before and had her husband cheat on her and divorce her. The same priest that denied my parents ran away with a perish oner and got married.

I watched my girlfriend's sister have a longstanding affair with a priest and was invited over to the parents home for dinner on the holidays (they were strong catholics).

I wondered what religious significance there was to not eating meat on Fridays.

I felt bad for the women that were kicked out of the church because they were using Birth Control.

I got angry when after getting pregnant for the 3rd time (after sinfully being on the pill), I went to a Catholic Hospital and wasn't able to pay the bill in full, instead we made small monthly payments and missed a few. The collection called us and wanted more money, I told them that we could afford it and they said that I should have thought about that when I had another kid. To which I replied that being a Catholic Hospital, I would think that you above anybody else would UNDERSTAND!

On and on and on I could go, where I would stop nobody knows....I have very little faith in any ORGANIZED Religion.

and I agree with you. Just like the Bush administration, they preach the 'sanctity of life' only when it's convenient for them.

Do you think the Pope is really in charge?

Obviously he's not well, and (perhaps less obviously) he's being positioned (propped up?) in support of doctrines you wouldn't think he'd really favor, like the continued demonization of gays.

And there's the rumors that "they" have already chosen the next recipient of the fisherman's ring, and he's a slimy, dogmatic, Opus Dei type.

Conversely, what do you think of Bishop O'Malley? Sincere servant of the faith, or malleable tool, or accomplished powermonger?

tough to gouge - i'm pissed we didn't have a chance to string up Law before he was ushered out.

o'maLLey started off good (great, even) but it's same oL, same oL.

"ordered" and preached hatred from the pulpit. When the Church financed the passing of Prop 2, the gay marriage ammendment, I had had enough. I, and several others including my son's 62 year old kindergarten teacher, got up and walked out. I won't be there at Easter, but I will celebrate on my own. :hi:

It's funny-after I posted this thread, I got an email from my cousin that the Jesuit priest who married her left the priesthood. He'd had it with the hierarchy.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

Peace.

... why not just drop a note in the collection plate that reads something like:

"Because I find the Church's stand on gay issues (or reproductive choice or whatever issue) to be at a variance to what I believe Christ taught, I am withholding my usual donation and giving it to (fill in the blank with your favorite gay, pro-choice, etc., charity)"

If enough church-goers in any denomination started doing that, it would quickly get the attention of church authorities.

I was raised in a conservative (rich) suburb, and our priest (and several of the nuns who taught CCD) connected with the beatitudes more than the old testament.

He used to hold midnight mass/peace vigils against the Vietnam War (which my conservative mother attended only b/c my brother had a very low draft number). The older men in the parish complained, and the priest was transferred to a Spanish-speaking parish in the city, probably in the hope that he wouldn't do any more damage.

I respect the Church's pro-life stance - but had to leave when they began preaching against abortion to the absolute exclusion of the death penalty, war, nuculear profliferation, social justice, and other issues. I'm pro-choice, but could have lived with a consistently pro-life stand, since I believe strongly in those other pro-life issues. Plus there were other things I had issues with, such as the role of women in the Church.

My mother once said "you can't pick and choose and call yourself a Catholic", and that's when I realized that I didn't belong in the Church - I really couldn't call myself a Catholic any longer.

So off I went to the Society of Friends, where I found 2 other refugees from our parish from the time of the Peace Vigils.

It's a shame that the Church is getting further and further away from the social-justice Catholocism I grew up with.

that social-justice Catholicism made me who I am today. Thank you for relating your story.

Back then there was much more attention paid to poverty issues. While I believe the church has a right to its tachings, I find that their message is increasingly repressive and that people who don't speak out are endorsing repression.

I think you have done other DU'ers who share your experience a great service by articulating your issues so well.

Vatican newspaper? I always hear what the Pope says, but I haven't understood anything coming from his lips in a decade.

I'm not walking away from the Church because I believe that I'm Catholic for life. I've drastically reduced my contributions and convinced my parents to do the same.

any organized religion. My former church, the Southern Baptist Convention, was never quite as liberal as the Catholic, but it used to be far more tolerant than it is today. We were once taught that Jesus was all about love, honor, and compassion, but now all they preach is hate. I understand why you, as a (former?) Catholic, would direct your anger at your own church, but they're all equally as bad.

But then I'm also one who argues they should all be investigated/prosecuted under RICO, so I'm probably not a very good judge. :shrug:

I am sick and tired of seeing the jerks in the church getting publicity:

I dont blame you about not contributing... I have stopped lately myself. I noticed in my church the basket was pretty empty especially on Ash Wednesday... not even the buck in the basket.

So here's a list of people repudiated by the conservative Catholics:
The good guys are still here.

Also, Catholic Worker as well.

http://www.missionsun.net/diss.htm

start reading these folks and take heart...

Many of them are to the left...

Take a look at Sr. Joan Chistler's columns:
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/fwis/archives.h...

DATE Vol. No. Title
March 17, 2005 2 42 In case you think it's over
March 10, 2005 2 41 The price of our security can't be our integrity
March 3, 2005 2 40 Beware animosity masking as truth
February 24, 2005 2 39 Making morality just another name for villainy
February 17, 2005 2 38 Is this kind of Christianity Christian?
February 10, 2005 2 37 Keeping the eucharistic community eucharistic
February 3, 2005 2 36 The question looks theological but it may be a dodge
January 27, 2005 2 35 What the rest of the world watched on Inauguration Day
January 20, 2005 2 34 Questions for an inauguration
January 6, 2005 2 33 Coming to the revolution a little late but still on time
December 10, 2004 2 32 Doubt: the new substitute for proof?
December 6, 2004 2 31 Say that again - only this time in Latin
November 26, 2004 2 30 I give up: Who stole the rest of the commandments?
November 18, 2004 2 29 The reports of feminism's death have been greatly exaggerated
November 5, 2004 2 28 Yes, but what about the rest of us?
October 28, 2004 2 27 This election won't be over when it's over
October 21, 2004 2 26 When do third parties come to the party?
October 14, 2004 2 25 We're being gaslighted; Where's Joseph Cotton when we need him?
September 30, 2004 2 24 An appeal for America to be American
September 24, 2004 2 23 The sacredness of the singular
September 16, 2004 2 22 Have you heard this one?
September 9, 2004 2 21 Don't be fooled: It's simpler than they tell us
September 2, 2004 2 20 An election guide for honest-to-God serious voters
August 26, 2004 2 19 Beware what you're not aware of, it measures your humanity
August 19, 2004 2 18 I know we won, but what did we lose by winning?
August 5, 2004 2 17 And now in this corner, wearing Republican trunks ...
July 29, 2004 2 16 The fine art of rewriting history at election time: He did what?!
July 22, 2004 2 15 We are a 'Cabaret' nation, old chum
July 15, 2004 2 14 You will read this only here (unfortunately)
July 8, 2004 2 13 Insurgency and the Fourth of July
July 1, 2004 2 12 Dike-savers, film-makers and librarians
June 24, 2004 2 11 Thinking can be a very dangerous thing these days
June 15, 2004 2 10 So what are we doing about it?
June 8, 2004 2 9 The picture is an illusion
June 2, 2004 2 8 We have something to be ashamed of: but what is it?
May 25, 2004 2 7 The situation did not start in Abu Ghraib
May 18, 2004 2 6 The evil of naming people evil
May 12, 2004 2 5 Is John Kerry a good Catholic?
April 28, 2004 2 4 Yes, but are the claims packable?
April 20, 2004 2 3 Church, conscience, constitution and common sense
April 13, 2004 2 2 Monarchies, PQ's and Condoleezza Rice
April 6, 2004 2 1 This time the joke may be on us
March 30, 2004 1 50 Hope is dancing when you can't hear the music
March 23, 2004 1 49 Have these people got an idea for you!
March 17, 2004 1 48 Is feminism a mob or a movement?
March 11, 2004 1 47 Religions have some repenting to do
March 3, 2004 1 46 When beauty and ugliness come face to face
February 24, 2004 1 45 When the truth becomes a lie
February 17, 2004 1 44 To succeed or to fail and how to tell one from the other
February 10, 2004 1 43 Meritocracy: The argument without a definition
February 3, 2004 1 42 Common criterion: A problem Jesus would understand
January 27, 2004 1 41 A just image or just an image?
January 20, 2004 1 40 Playground politics
January 13, 2004 1 39 Treaties don't do it; Homes do
January 6, 2004 1 38 Problem: When is smuggling not smuggling?
December 18, 2003 1 37 When stepping backward becomes a step forward
December 2, 2003 1 36 The real mark of greatness is in question
November 25, 2003 1 35 The rise of the other religious voice in the public arena
November 18, 2003 1 34 What we do not grieve we cannot reclaim
November 11, 2003 1 33 Before we export it, let's get it back ourselves
November 4, 2003 1 32 Who's being sacrificed for what -- and why?
October 28, 2003 1 31 Here's a new litany for you
October 21, 2003 1 30 Why go to church if you don't do what the pope says?
October 14, 2003 1 29 Coming soon: 'an effective and intelligent campaign'
October 7, 2003 1 28 Let's hear it for the irrational for a change
September 30, 2003 1 27 Don't forget that it's your wall, too
September 23, 2003 1 26 With Isaac and Ishmael in mind
September 16, 2003 1 25 Questioning what news is and why
September 9, 2003 1 24 You want who to do what? Well, par-don me!
September 2, 2003 1 23 Moses, we have a question
August 26, 2003 1 22 It's time to listen to your mother: Watch your language
August 19, 2003 1 21 Here's the question: Who's the real enemy?
August 12, 2003 1 20 It's time to vote in pursuit of our own best interests
August 5, 2003 1 19 Vision: The fine art of seeing the unseen (The IHM story -- Part III)
July 29, 2003 1 18 Justice and power are not synonyms (The IHM story -- Part II)
July 22, 2003 1 17 Setting the record straight (The IHM story -- Part I)
July 15, 2003 1 16 I give up: What is Americanism?
July 8, 2003 1 15 Proceeding in the ways of peace means meeting those we fear
July 1, 2003 1 14 The common cry: Let my people go
June 24, 2003 1 13 Unleashing a power such as the world has never seen
June 17, 2003 1 12 Pogo may have been right
June 10, 2003 1 11 Tipping: the difference between gratitude and expectation
June 3, 2003 1 10 Unless I ask you to write, please don't
May 27, 2003 1 9 Is there anything left that matters?
May 20, 2003 1 8 Reading peace in the signs of the times
May 13, 2003 1 7 Religion: One part solution, one part problem
May 6, 2003 1 6 Truth Stumbles in the Public Square
April 29, 2003 1 5 The Liberation of the Spirit
April 22, 2003 1 4 A Call To Preemptive Patriotism
April 15, 2003 1 3 What Are We Losing by Winning?
April 8, 2003 1 2 A New Moment in Time
April 4, 2003 1 1 A New Low In Congressional Leadership

It's the leadership that's screwed up, not the core teachings of the church. The definition of church is community. The church belongs to the faithful, not the corrupt leaders. If I leave the church, I loose. Besides some of us need to stick around to present an opposing voice of reason.

That's what I tell myself every time I struggle with choosing to just walk away.

I battle with these feelings everyday. Then I go to church at the end of the week and usually (but not always) feel better for having made the effort. I stopped giving them my money a long time ago. If more of us kept going to church without donating our hard earned cash maybe collectively we could have a voice that would be heard.

I went to 8 years of Catholic School, and I'm wondering where to go now. I think the straw for me came when my parish priest defended himself for discussing politics from the pulpit. I don't remember the exact words, but the message was that if he didn't tell us right from wrong, then how would we know. Both my kids looked at me with panicked faces. I know they were afraid I would either speak up or walk out. I did neither, but after mass, I calmly explained the the priest SHOULD have advised his parishioners that they needed to educate themselves on the issues before deciding who to vote for, and that "thou shalt not kill" applies equally to pro-choice as well as pro death penalty. Not to mention illegal wars.

I've also told my children that there is a difference between faith and religion, and that faith is important, religion is merely a way to express faith.

As I've asked my ultra-catholic mother, "You don't actually believe that God is Catholic, Do you?".

I remember the priests in my parish preaching about taking care of the poor, and even talking about the Red Sox. :D But politics was verboten.

What town did you grow up in?

Woburn is where I grew up, and we live in Billerica now.
My husband is a Medford italian, so he's convinced he's already got a spot in heaven.

I stopped listening to anything he had to say a long time ago...

I grew up Catholic in Connecticut in the 70s and 80s. I always found solace in the ceremony and symbolism ... there really can be a mystery to to that adds to the spirtuality, at least I always found it that way. But as I got older I found that two things were happening (or had happened, and I was finally old enough to realize it). The Church was simplifying the litergy to the lowest common denominator in order to attract more people. At the same time, the anti abortion/anti euthanasia clique came to dominate the social circles and the heirarchy of the Church. I know there are lots of liberal Catholics concerned with the death penalty, social justice, etc, but some how, their voices were silenced. I had always been a pick and choose Catholic, but was never really comfortable about it... the Church is not a democracy, they believe what they believe, and frankly, it ought to be that way, at least IMHO.

On day in the early 1990s, I was living in NYC and went to mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral, where the sermon was all about how I was going to hell because I wasnt' chaining myself to the gates of Planned Parenthood--failure to actively support the anti-choice forces was a sin of omission. I never went back to Church in NYC. Shortly thereafter, I went to church at the parish I grew up in when at home for Easter. I am not kidding here--we held hands, and sang Kumbaya to a mom dad and two kids wielding an acoustic guitar. I walked out of church, depressed, without any sense of joy (hard for Easter)--the litergy was gone and the social conservatives told me I was not wanted. So I left, and have only been back for funerals and weddings.

My husband and I found a wonderful Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian church in NYC, and since 1993 have been active members. I was married there, both my husband and I have been confirmed there, my daughter was baptized there. All the ceremony; none of the guilt!

I have spent the last 30 years as a "recovering Catholic".

But I do celebrate Easter -- both this one and the Orthodox on May 1 -- will family and pigging out on leg of lamb cooked Greek style. Yum.