Anyone else losing last vestige of religion

due to the Shiavo circus? I was raised as a Catholic. I left the Church years ago for many reasons , including their treatment of my dying father, in whom , unlike Terri, they had zero interest.
I continued to celebrate Easter however, as a tribute to my late mother. I prepared a traditional meal and had food baskets blessed. I will not be doing that this year.I am cutting the final ties. This might not seem like much to others, but it is a large sacrifice for me. But I believe my mother would approve. I cannot associate myself with the vileness surrounding these Right to Lifers hypocrisy even in a minimum manner. They are preaching insurrection against the judiciary, all in the name of a woman who cannot speak for herself.
I am so sorry for Terri, but they have already allowed the damage to take place. I am sure that this shy and somewhat insecure girl who never have wanted to be remembered this way. The pictures of her are awful. Some might not think so, but she would . The girl was a bulimic in search of beauty. The fact that they endlessly loop these awful pictures is the final insult.They have robbed her of her dignity and it can't be returned.
I disapprove of funeral viewing but would never enforce my feelings on another. I buried my parents in accordance with their wishes, though they were not my own. I was forced to view my mother and help with her makeup, though I had stated I didn't want to remember her that way. I also had to approve my Dad, as there was no one else to do it.

Terri Shiavo has had the most extended wake in history and the most viewed, in not the best of circumstances. The religious fanatics have totally usurped he free will.They have forever sullied her memory and altered the impression of the memory they she would have like to have left. Her parents are monsters.

I am making sure that only I control my final disposition.I will have no service and be cremated. The memories I leave will be unpolluted by the manipulation of others. Terri has had that right, whether one agrees with her or not, taken away from her.

If they are really Catholics, They understand the concept of "free will" and they have intercepted Terri's, and intervened in her relationship with God. They have usurped the rights of God as well as that of the state and the individual.As a Jesuit priest said yesterday, in reaction to the Vatican and the fanatics,
this is just bizarre".

I choose to believe God is watching and he will make the final decision.

I will go to church this sunday just like normal. I don't intend to let these zealots determine my relationship to God.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

Sounds like you maintained most (if not all) of your spiritual beliefs.


Do public practice and support of a given organization counts as "religion"? Becoming less enthusiastic about that could count as losing it.




I take the introverts' view. It's what's inside that counts.

I lost mine a long time ago.

I so agree with you that the religious insane are keeping Mrs. Schiavo from resting in God's embrace, and it makes me ill.

The only thing that gives me hope is that I think He may be testing us, and I believe He wants their hypocrisy to be exhibited.

Maybe it's all a test. A test for what we as a nation can stand and religion. If you let these people take away something that is personal to you then that's your failure to the test. I've had my own personal test's and each time I know that these people are fake and I'm real. They may think they're doing the right thing but looking in they aren't.
Don't let them take away your faith if it's what you truly believe. I won't let them.

outward trappings!

I've stated that before here, and I truly believe it. You don't need religion to worship your God.

and, I beleive, utterly true.

Thanks.:headbang:

I have a strong reason to believe which sustains it.

I will humbly share my very own first major crisis of faith in the Catholic religion........I was maybe 11, and one day the priest came in to our class to discuss religious subjects. Now, he came in looking like "Death Warmed Over"...bloodshot eyes, reeking of cigarette smoke and booze,, it was pretty obvious that "da good Faddah" had tied one on pretty good the night before, and would probably have rather been anywhere else in the world right then except in front of a bunch of kids talking about God. Well, being the good Catholic children that we were, all in the class sat quietly and politely listened to whatever he was talking about, when, all of a sudden, the Defender of the Faith broke wind in a most abominable and disgusting manner to the horror of the teacher and the shock of the class!!! With a force that would have scattered all of the demons in Hell, the ghastly (and gassy) result of the cleric's intestinal polka sent the class into a state of mass confusion and chaos! Obviously this humble servant of God not only preached "Fire and Brimstone" but would give you a first hand demonstration of it as well! (Get thee behind me, Satan! Oh, Geez! No, thanks, I'd rather not!!) Now being that this was the mid 1960's, (not that far removed from the era of "Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy)when most children that age had been through years of what-to-do-in-case-of-nuclear-attack drills, and from the looks of some of the kids faces, one could see that the initial conditioned response was to get under the desk, but, they weren't quite sure if this qualified, and, some looked to the teacher for guidance, only to be met with a very annoyed scowl. Meanwhile, the Flatulent Franciscan continuedon with his religious babbling as if nothing had happened, but, after a few minutes, perhaps to make sure that we had been paying attention, he let rip another one, which, though lacking the intensity and volume of its predecssor, was nevertheless, every bit as lethal. Of course, being a pre-adolescent boy, when that kind of thing is the funniest thing imaginable, it took a Herculean effort on my part and a very sore lip from being bitten so intensely, to maintain some sort of self control. Ah, but the torment I put myself through over the issue...."is it a sin to laugh when a priest poots?" plagued me to no end that night!!!! Was I to spend eternity toting a pitchfork with horns and a tail??? or would the Lord be merciful on my worthless, sinful soul and parole me to a few hundred years in Purgatory? And how does one admit such a heinous crime in Confession??? Were there enough Hail Mary's in the entire universe to expunge one of that behaviour???? The horror..........the horror
Well, needless to say, lightning did not strike me,, and, there were many more crises of faith to follow

And the "egg blessing " I viewed as a sentimental gesture for my Mom. I should add that both my parents were attorneys with great respect for the law, and would have been horrified at what is happening today!

I hope you use your literary talent to amuse and inform outside of DU!

Thanks for sharing.


Fortunately I was spared a Catholic education as a kid, but my husband went to a Catholic school with a military flavor back in the 50's, and he remembers saluting the nuns and being told that in the event of an attack by the Russians on his hometown, Burbank, CA, he and his classmates would be the first line of defense. He spent nights worrying about how he was going to fight off well-armed godless Communist Russians in order to keep Burbank safe.

Think of the money that's been spent on therapy as a result of this kind of "religious" education.

a good and thoughtful post. I love your final sentence: "I choose to believe God is watching and he will make the final decision."

No, I'm not losing my religion, but I will admit that my faith in humanity is pretty much at an all-time low.

Please do not let the actions of a minority convince you that this is what all religious people want. It couldn't be further from the truth.

I posted something similar, but from a different perspective. I'd appreciate your feedback.
link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=291&topic_id=830&mesg_id=830

I am only referring to my last ties with the Catholic Church. I have lost my"religion" in that sense years ago. I found your piece beautiful and full of hope while expressing a bit of disappointment that youth have not been availed the wisdom of the aged.

I can only pray, if that is the word, that you are somewhat right in your conclusions. While I can only speak from the viewpoint of a former Catholic, I am aware that many Catholics are not as portrayed by the media , or indeed as by the Vatican. Father Greeley and the Jesuit interviewed yesterday as well as Georgetown University , (of whom all my family are alumni! ) are proof of that. But I fear that the vocal minority of fan antic is increasing and certainly being given credence by the media. Randall Terry has gone from being villianised for promoting the murder of doctors who perform abortions to a hero who represents Terry.

The laws regarding self determination, from a women's right to choose to the right to choice in one's final days , are under attack from these people. They want our decisions regulated by a government and a religion as opposed to the individual guided by his relationship with God. They impose their individual moral compass on the world. We live in dangerous times.

In my own opinion, this circus has no impact on my religious philosophy because the circus has nothing to do with religion. In worsening levels over the last few years, the right-wing Christian fanatics have moved further and further away from Christianity to their own brand of something else. It does, however, make me even more fearful of the influence of that fanaticism on our elected officials.

In my world, God will sort this all out and take care of the people involved in the most appropriate way.

Of course that is because I have a now 15 month old son and have discovered the UU church and believe that denying my son the option of discovering a semi spiritual or philosophical side to life would not be raising him to his full potential.

this characteristic is innate in humans, otherwise religion wouldn't have developed in the first place.

what religion did was make it exclusive, ritualistic, and separatist.

which is desecration in my opinion. I think it's very healthy to practice rituals of sacredness with a group. But don't underestimate your son's innate intelligence by assuming church will make him more intelligent and philosophical, when we are surrounded by evidence every day that the exact reverse is true with most people.

>>But don't underestimate your son's innate intelligence by assuming church will make him more intelligent and philosophical>>

I am not assuming that church will make him more intelligent and philosophical. The motto of the UU church is "Deeds are more important than creeds." I don't believe in the Bible or one religion or whatever but I think to have no knowledge of where people are coming from (Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans etc) is leaving a big hole out of history, and understanding of people and events that have taken place. Also I think refusing to see where people are coming from leads to miscommunication.

What I like about Unitarian Universalism is that it recognizes and celebrates all rituals and sacredness.

Both my husband and I were raised Catholic; but left the church a long time ago. We began attending UU services for the very same reason you give. We wanted her to be exposed to our spiritual values.

Thus said Clarence Darrow.

No Mother Goose?

:o

than I believe there exists a liberal in Texas. I pity you, it is hard enough being a liberal in the Northeast. Do you fear for your life? Do you try and fit in to protect your family?

no religion to lose my friends...life is much easier when you don't have to impress someone all the time

Stuff like this is not making me want to return any time soon.

I am trying desperately to remain a spiritual person, but in the face of the total rejection of reality by most Christians that I know, I am about to give up. Here is where it really began to snowball for me.

I think I am losing my religion

Hardly!

"...that I know." It seems like everywhere I turn there is a damn fundie saying something to me. The last one was at work who objected to the 4th grade science book's way of teaching fossils. It angered her that it made it sound like dinosaurs and people never lived together and that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Her point was that it was teaching wrong info since the world was created by God some 6,000 to 8,000 years ago.

but I believe religion is a mental illness - a mass delusion

sometimes it get seriously dangerous. Now is one of those times.

In a historical context, the cyclical waves of fundamentalism are inevitable and always spell bad news for our civilization and for anyone who values reason over superstition.

Problem is now, all the out-of-control "sons of Abraham" are going psycho at once, at a time when out-of-control capitalists are killing the planet. Bad convergence.

I think people made up religion in their heads to make themselves feel like they have a purpose in this world...I on the other hand KNOW i have a purpose in this world and that is to make the best of MY life...I am a healthcare worker/researcher and I do it not to make a god happy, but rather to make use of the time I have here. The question most people ask me when they find out I am an athiest is if I don't believe in God, why do I help people? And I just reply that i do it for the other people...not myself or anything else.

If you look at the history of humans, there was always a type of "religion". Not to mention there is a great diversity among them. Christians believe that everyone else is WRONG. Basically, if you don't believe in God or Jesus, you are going to hell. And that is wrong. (Let me state that i believe in NOTHING...no heaven, no hell, no god...). I am so sick of religious zealouts and fundamentalists...

,...I needed to find my relationship to a Higher Power and to explore and grow my own spirituality.

I am better able to accept and tolerate others' religious beliefs or atheism; yet, have also drawn some limits on behavior derived from any religion.

I suppose I'm a deist.

Guess I don't have the courage of my non convictions.


http://www.kliljedahl.net

Catholic school and went into the world. I had become an ex-Catholic long before then, but paid it lip service to get through school without too much ado. The Church didn't mind taking my parent's money either. It's not that I don't seek spirituality privately, but I don't think any one man or woman has the answers. It seems to me that the answers lies in your mind and heart. What is best for you and your world at large.

I see nothing wrong with celebrating the secular aspects of holidays, like Christmas trees and Easter baskets, which are all rooted in paganism anyway. Even the name Easter is for Estra, or Oestra, a Germanic fertility goddess of spring.

Our community does an Easter celebration in the park, for kids mostly. Maybe you should start seeking our these types of celebrations. As usual of course the churches interject themselves in these festivals, but you can ignore them.

To me religion is something personal. It helps you cope with the afterlife and have a peace of mind about it while you are here. That's what I think. Right now in our country being one of these Christians is the thing to do. Just like being a neocon who claims to be republican. If you are in the minority in anything you're seen as the town shame.
Each person has their own idea of spirituality and each person has a different walk of life from the other. It's up to you to decide to have spirituality or not and what works for you.

If my religion was about holiday meals and candy baskets I would give it up too.

I, too, feel badly for Terri. Her last wishes are finally being carried out, but a bunch of religious freaks are trying to keep her from that final release. Quite frankly, they're scaring the living crap out of me.

Next month I must have major surgery. I'm so freaked out by this whole fiasco that I've decided to specify that my family has no power to make medical decisions for me. Can you imagine being under the control of one of these lunatics? Unfortunately, I can. I was under their control for most of my life.

Watching all this going on is really scary. Imagine being from a foreign country and seeing all this going on. At my church a family friend has a niece here for a few months from Switzerland. Sometimes I wonder what she thinks of everything going on. :shrug:

My fundy mother called my counselor behind my back a couple of years ago to tell him I was demon-possessed. :eyes: When he told me, I laughed hysterically for ten minutes straight. At least, it seemed like ten minutes. It was either laugh or cry at that point.

Would you want a mother like this in charge of your medical care?

as a group and who don't engage in the hypocrisy surrounding this bogus "culture of life." They're genereally not Catholic, but even the Catholics have a few liberal churches they haven't been able to kill off. If you are a believer, you will find one eventually.

Good luck.

Sometimes because of these people I too feel like that. But then again I won't let these people take away something that is personal and private to me (my beliefs). They are false and don't know it. The Bible teaches about false prophets but the thing is they think we are them. *Sigh* The thing I've noticed is before it became known that Terri was a Catholic nobody really cared like this. Then out of nowhere all these "nurses" and "doctors" and "Christian groups" started coming out more making all these false accusations against Schavio. Interesting huh?

think that the invasion of Terri Schiavo's privacy and the total disregard for her dignity is the biggest sin being committed here.
I have not seen any representative from her Church stepping forward to defend her dignity and privacy. Her parents, and those who profess to be there to defend her "right to live", seem to have no interest whatsoever in her true peace and "salvation".
I also disagree with funeral viewing, and have opted for cremation for myself. I would wish for my loved ones' last memory of me to be one of me alive and vibrant, not as an over made-up mannequin in a coffin. Based on what we know of Terri Schiavo's feelings about herself, she would not want the world to be seeing her like this.
What her parents and the "right-to-lifers" are doing is more sacrilege than anything her husband is asking to be done.

really read , what I said. I was merely dropping the last vestiges of outward trappings of ORGANIZED RELIGION, due to the Church's lack of respect for the individual. Anyway. Thanks!(BTW, my mother was from Brooklyn! maybe that is why you are so smart! )

That's my new favorite phrase. Religion is a way of understanding God, but it really has been so corrupted by the loud right wing nuts that it has a bad name. You can worship God (any God you choose) without religion.

A clock is an arbitrary attempt to label time. But it is not time.

You got it.

(eom)

I'm just curious.

It was mentioned up-thread and I think that's what I am ... but since I walked away from the Catholic Church, I haven't thought of myself as anything but spiritual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

It's basically an overview. You can google it and find several websites about Deism that are more detailed.

In my words, Deism is the belief in God through reason and spirituality. The laws that govern how our universe acts are laws God set down in the beginning billions of years ago. The exact nature of God, his will, cannot be known for the simple fact that we know comparatively little about the universe. Of the things we do know through science, we can tell that if there is a God, He is too complex for us to claim to know what He wants. If you want to know the artist, study his work (the universe).

This is why Deism rejects the authority of the church or any individual who claims to speak for God. To be skeptical and to ask questions and challenge old thinking is not a sin or an evil or the devil whispering in your ear. Rather, it is something you already had all along: God's gift of thought and reason. God did not give you this gift so that you can throw it away on some guy or group who claims to know the will of God.

As a single man, I cannot judge the lifestyle another person chooses. I cannot tell him what is path should be towards God, what his beliefs should be. I don't have that right, and I don't have that authority. God gave you the gift of free will in addition to thought and reason, and I cannot take that away by making the choice for you as if I'm the pope or the priest who knows the answer. You must come to your own decisions using the gifts given to you.

This is why I favor treating homosexuals and other minorities with the same respect and dignity afforded everyone else, and this is why I am against the death penalty. Did God give me the right to determine who gets life or who gets death? I don't believe he did. Only God is qualified to judge.

I don't believe God has a gender. Other than that, you've pretty much described where my thinking is on the issue today. I guess I'm a Deist.

Thank you for taking the time to explain :)

I didn't feel like typing out "the Creator" or just typing "It" everytime.

because I call my god "Higher Power", and in close circles, I'm understood when I say "HP". But HP means something else to most everyone else, so I default to using the term "God" then.

Thanks again.

Religious fanatics killed God ages ago.

Religion is for suckers and sheep. There's no invisible man in the sky who's watching you and loves you, but will throw you into a lake of fire for an eternity of torment if you don't worship him.

We don't yet know why we exist and how we got here. Reading the Bible, Torah, Bahagavad-gita, etc won't help explain it.

I don't practice primitive superstitions based on control of the masses through the fear of death....or any other superstitions.

You can lead a full, productive, contributing-to-the-welfare-of-society life without ever wasting minute one in a church. You don't need a bible to tell you killing, stealing, and lying is wrong.

Organized religion is a scam.

All we need to do is listen to that voice inside. Religions teach us the opposite. In my opinion, that internal voice reflecting my human nature is the closest thing to "God" we can experience. Religion is the antithesis of that.

that any repect I've had for it is about gone. I'm starting to view it all as ignorance and backwardness with a heavy dose of hypocrisy thrown in.

influence your belief if you *truly* still do believe. They're not Christians, they're just playing them on TV. So far, I haven't come upon anything that would sway my belief in my God. But obviously, the way they're acting, their God isn't the one I believe in.

On the other hand, if you look at all the crap that's happening in this world, and consider it, you may actually be to the point that there is no belief left. I *CAN* see that happening to lots of people as we go thru this mess. I'm trying not to let it happen to me and not be sucked up into the dark side of religion.

Even at that, all we can do is remember that he never promised us a good or easy time of it.

During times like this I remember the Israliets and all the hard time they had with the wandering in the desert waiting for this holy land and all that. It's written that some people did want to give up but Moses had the greatest faith. I'm reminded of that with these times.

but it does make me ever more aware of the empty-shell consumerism that some folks are willingly substituting for faith. I'm on vacation & avoiding the news-frenzy...which meant I watched Montel today (first time in about five years) and a woman was on who was dying of a virus in her heart, a complication of lupus. People in her church were praying for her & she survived the heart virus, which surprised the doctors and is no longer showing signs of lupus. I believe such things happen-- but, this woman wasn't dragging a plastic Jesus on a trailer hitch, she just went on with her life trying to do good with a grateful heart. I want the real stuff, let the shell-people miss out.

when my mother-in-law told me I had "lied to God" when I chose not to have my kids baptized as infants. My mother is a liberal Catholic with a "take the best and leave the rest" attitude, and never allows her religion to overshadow her intellect. My mother in-law is a medieval-type Catholic who seeks out those with Stigmata and/or a direct line to Jesus. She doesn't read the bible, but rather all the Catholic tracts and newspapers, to gain her religious knowledge. Mass every day, rosary without respite, that sort of thing. I'd been wavering in my faith for some time, but she pretty much ended it for me. Her God was so narrow! I continue to believe in God, but He is my own God, the one I have always known and loved outside of human dogma. Yes this whole Schiavo fiasco has been difficult but only because it has highlighted the way I am taking my own, sometimes lonely, path.

I'm not a believer. But this isn't any reason to give up on religion. That would be like giving up on ice cream because the discount chain store brand tastes like crap. This isn't religion. It's a perversion of religion.

Like you, I had to make the tough decisions regarding my parents death and funeral. I abided by their wishes despite many conflicts I had with Judiasm.

I consider myself Culturally Jewish...celebrating the rich culture, struggles and heritage that I picked up from my grandmother...identifying with the people, not the theology.

Until someone can show me an affadvit or some other definitive proof, I don't believe there is some big brother invisible cloud being who sit inside each of our heads, reading our thoughts and dictating how our lives are to be lived...or that he put it in a book and this is an unquestioned "rule of life".

There's too much about human nature that defies the concept of religion. Freewill is the best example of this conflict. Also that a true "god" would never condoned the sytemic extermination of millions (Jews, Kampucheans, Rwandans, Iraqis and more) so blindly without intervening. Being tested? Sorry, I don't see "god" as a college professor.

My opinion has long been that "god" and religion answer questions that couldn't be answered...giving certainty to the everchanging world we live in. It gives comfort to those who need it and as long as it serves as something that generates inner peace (something my mother found in her Judiasm), I respect that and believe religion can be a positive influence. It's when people allow it to not only dictate their lives over rational, common thought and then attempt to imply their god and views of that god on my life, then we have serious troubles.

I too had made the assumption that all that waited for me in a church was the right wing Christian fundamentalist. For years I let those bad experiences keep me from God. I let them keep me from the fellowship with others.
One day I decided to look around for a church. I found a church where the pastor is as concerned about the current politics as I (yes, there are Christian liberals-I think Jesus was the first one). They are true practicing Christians (what you do to the least, you do to me). We have even had conversations about the duty of Christians to engage in civil disobedience when needed. A large number of the congregation are on the same page (we a a few that disagree but that's ok).
I strongly recommend seeking out a congregation that feels right for you. A fellowship with other Christians does much to deepen your faith and help you on your path. May sure your wishes are known via a living will.

religion. I will not seek out any congrgation. I don't need one. Religious belief to me, needs to be private.

Your traditions sound personnel and deeply spiritual, grounded in your experiences with faith (i.e. as a tribute to your mother who may have provided many of those experiences).

A persons relationship to God exists between that person and God. No one can mess that up no matter how hypocritical they or those who try to influence them are being.

You have the ability to foster that relationship whether you are part of a church or not part of a church.

If your traditions are important to you, I hope you keep them because they help to foster that relationship.

To me, this is why things like prayer are important. Not because of any expectation that prayer will bring me anything concrete in the end. Rather, the act of prayer is the fulfillment of my commitment to trust that God is there and hears me. The act of praying is what fulfills me.

By your act you honor God, your mother and your personal faith, not the words of people who know nothing about you. To me that seems like a huge sacrifice, and, forgive me for saying so, but a needless one.

At any rate, I will offer you (and all) this thought and prayer:

Peace be with you always.

Religion was personal. The outward trappings were social. I have never paid tribute to God with my traditions. I was paying tribute to my mother and a "family" tradition. I don't think God needs Easter eggs!

but I'm not sure I understand what your saying in your post. That really doesn't matter.

But just for clarity, I wasn't implying that your traditions were meant to pay tribute to God. Rather, I was saying that if your traditions are important to you and meaningful to you, for whatever reason, as long as it is one that fosters love, as I would surmize yours does, that it in some way brings you, personally, closer to God. To me that is something that is not worth giving up because of the morons who are in the news right now.

God doesn't need Easter eggs, but metaphorically, I'm sure he enjoys getting them.

traditions to bring me closer to "God", but they do remind me of my mother. In stead of the usual, I sent someone with an anti Bush Pro Choice Easter food basket( decorated with buttons supporting choice,and denigrating Bush, and had it blessed! Giggle. Now that was really paying tribute to my mother, who would have gotten a laugh out of it!

I see your breaking of a tradition as a big step. I agree with your views on this debacle and religion. I've made the same journey, it can be very arduous. Have faith in yourself and your ability to reason things out and listen to your heart and you will come out in the place that is right for you.

Good luck on your journey, may you know peace in your conclusions.

Julie

Then I got pissed off at the rapture repukes for pushing me away from my own spiritual beliefs, which harm no one.

So now, having found the UU church (http://www.uua.org) which is creedless and welcomes ALL people and encourages you to search your own conscience and come to your OWN decisions, I am back, but in a different way and happier than ever.

I am spiritual, not religious. I still am Christian, but I follow Jesus' teachings of peace and fighting poverty and looking out for the least among us.

I also study Buddhism, another belief system of peace.

I love to learn about different religions (I am attending my first Passover Seder on April 23) and my child is learning, too.

Instead of pushing me away, they have caused me to broaden my horizons further.

I refuse to let them push me away from spirituality. THEY are the ones who are wrong, they are the false ones.

There are millions of Christians in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia. Only a small margin of them are wingnut fake Christian Taliban shitbirds.

We outnumber 'em. They've taken a lot from us, but the day I let them take my religion is the day you wind me in my shroud.

Seriously. The only kind I've ever really known are the fundy kind and that's here in California. The fundies permeate much of the South and MidWest. I guess there's no way to take a census.

"Excuse me, but are you a fundamentalist Christian whackjob?"

Most people are going to sound "sane" when they first tell you they are religious. Finding out the nutjob part usually takes a bit of time and conversation.

Going to Easter Mass this weekend...If we start praying for the 'culture of life', I am walking out.

spiritually connected. I still call myself a Catholic despite the fact the last time I was in a Catholic church it was for a funeral several years ago. My entire family has really stopped attending church. It's really a matter IMO of feeling as if religion has turned sinister but still having faith that God didn't suddenly up and disappear, his followers suddenly decided they BECAME God!

BTW, God is watching and I think he is VERY angry that when he called Terri home 15 years ago she was kept from him for less than honest reasons.

I have sympathy for Terri's parents UP TO A POINT, but they made a VERY selfish decision MANY years ago that has only served to make them into a tool for the devil via our politicians!

That sums up my journey.

America where that choice will not be honored.

I admire the care with which you wrote your post. The pain of your sacrifice is familiar to those of us who were brought up with religion (Baptist) but are now faithless. I abandoned faith in college with the help of a few good liberal professors and a sincere appreciation of the Socratic method. I had been doubting God's existence ever since I learned about the Santa Clause ruse. My first betrayal of trust lingered. What else were these grown-ups lying about? By the time I enrolled in college, I was really only looking for someone in authority to tell me it's okay to let go of faith.

There's something to be said about taking a step back from personal beliefs, finding some fundamental truths to cling to via scientific method -- physics, geology, archaeology, sociology, psychology, etc -- and finding that global, bird's eye view of humankind that so eludes the hardline religious right. Pretty soon, class warfare becomes all-too-obvious. Propaganda becomes easier to see. Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore start to look more and more like Paul Revere.


Your plight is something we progressives need to quantize, synthesize and distribute to the general populace. Whether one loses faith or not is irrelevant in the long run. It's the struggle to pull yourself out of a cleverly woven web of deceit that's most important. There are those claiming to speak for your God who are not honest, not open, and definitely not humble before Him.

The faithful MUST become better skeptics and not be afraid to question authority down here in the Garden. And quick. The rest of us are running out of time.

This is a serious offer. If anyone finds themself losing their faith and needs to talk about it there are people of widely varying beliefs here at DU. If you approach them and explain your situation I am sure we can offer you insite into different positions and beliefs.

One of the problems with losing faith is that along with it goes the meanings and views that you have come to rely on. This can cause some to decend into a nihilistic funk. This need not be. Many can offer you new perspectives in the absense of your previous beliefs.

Talk to us. We are all born blind and screaming into this world and it is only by striving together that we make any progress.

And the Pressler/Harris years of Disneyland and the eradication of nearly ALL of Epcot Center and when fat obese yellow bear w/ HUNNEY obseesion ran over Mr. J. Thaddeus TOAD at the Magic Kingdom. The latter story even made the CNN ticker.

i am having crisis of religion, not of faith, my relationship with jesus and god is excellent, but certainly a crisis in religion. i cannot stand to hear people pray any longer, or talk about god or or or

i use to look at a church and feel good, i dont anymore

my throat.
I notice news anchors getting more brazen with it, and I am offended.
I consider my connection with a higher power to be a very personal thing. If you believe in God, or a higher power, he/she would know by your deeds and what is in your heart how spiritual you are.

Take people like Jimmy Carter, as an example. He does not wear his religion on his sleeve or tell people how Godly he is. His deeds and love for all humankind speak louder than words.

Compare this with *, 'nuff said.

I too had to made that decision almost 3 years ago and regret that I was blinded so long by so called Christianity.

many European countries have had periods of anti-clericalism because the hierarchy got too uppity and grasping.

I am sick and tired of seeing the jerks in the church getting publicity:

I dont blame you about not contributing... I have stopped lately myself. I noticed in my church the basket was pretty empty especially on Ash Wednesday... not even the buck in the basket.

So here's a list of people repudiated by the conservative Catholics:
The good guys are still here.

Also, Catholic Worker as well.

http://www.missionsun.net/diss.htm

start reading these folks and take heart...

Many of them are to the left...

Take a look at Sr. Joan Chistler's columns:
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/fwis/archives.h ...

DATE Vol. No. Title
March 17, 2005 2 42 In case you think it's over
March 10, 2005 2 41 The price of our security can't be our integrity
March 3, 2005 2 40 Beware animosity masking as truth
February 24, 2005 2 39 Making morality just another name for villainy
February 17, 2005 2 38 Is this kind of Christianity Christian?
February 10, 2005 2 37 Keeping the eucharistic community eucharistic
February 3, 2005 2 36 The question looks theological but it may be a dodge
January 27, 2005 2 35 What the rest of the world watched on Inauguration Day
January 20, 2005 2 34 Questions for an inauguration
January 6, 2005 2 33 Coming to the revolution a little late but still on time
December 10, 2004 2 32 Doubt: the new substitute for proof?
December 6, 2004 2 31 Say that again - only this time in Latin
November 26, 2004 2 30 I give up: Who stole the rest of the commandments?
November 18, 2004 2 29 The reports of feminism's death have been greatly exaggerated
November 5, 2004 2 28 Yes, but what about the rest of us?
October 28, 2004 2 27 This election won't be over when it's over
October 21, 2004 2 26 When do third parties come to the party?
October 14, 2004 2 25 We're being gaslighted; Where's Joseph Cotton when we need him?
September 30, 2004 2 24 An appeal for America to be American
September 24, 2004 2 23 The sacredness of the singular
September 16, 2004 2 22 Have you heard this one?
September 9, 2004 2 21 Don't be fooled: It's simpler than they tell us
September 2, 2004 2 20 An election guide for honest-to-God serious voters
August 26, 2004 2 19 Beware what you're not aware of, it measures your humanity
August 19, 2004 2 18 I know we won, but what did we lose by winning?
August 5, 2004 2 17 And now in this corner, wearing Republican trunks ...
July 29, 2004 2 16 The fine art of rewriting history at election time: He did what?!
July 22, 2004 2 15 We are a 'Cabaret' nation, old chum
July 15, 2004 2 14 You will read this only here (unfortunately)
July 8, 2004 2 13 Insurgency and the Fourth of July
July 1, 2004 2 12 Dike-savers, film-makers and librarians
June 24, 2004 2 11 Thinking can be a very dangerous thing these days
June 15, 2004 2 10 So what are we doing about it?
June 8, 2004 2 9 The picture is an illusion
June 2, 2004 2 8 We have something to be ashamed of: but what is it?
May 25, 2004 2 7 The situation did not start in Abu Ghraib
May 18, 2004 2 6 The evil of naming people evil
May 12, 2004 2 5 Is John Kerry a good Catholic?
April 28, 2004 2 4 Yes, but are the claims packable?
April 20, 2004 2 3 Church, conscience, constitution and common sense
April 13, 2004 2 2 Monarchies, PQ's and Condoleezza Rice
April 6, 2004 2 1 This time the joke may be on us
March 30, 2004 1 50 Hope is dancing when you can't hear the music
March 23, 2004 1 49 Have these people got an idea for you!
March 17, 2004 1 48 Is feminism a mob or a movement?
March 11, 2004 1 47 Religions have some repenting to do
March 3, 2004 1 46 When beauty and ugliness come face to face
February 24, 2004 1 45 When the truth becomes a lie
February 17, 2004 1 44 To succeed or to fail and how to tell one from the other
February 10, 2004 1 43 Meritocracy: The argument without a definition
February 3, 2004 1 42 Common criterion: A problem Jesus would understand
January 27, 2004 1 41 A just image or just an image?
January 20, 2004 1 40 Playground politics
January 13, 2004 1 39 Treaties don't do it; Homes do
January 6, 2004 1 38 Problem: When is smuggling not smuggling?
December 18, 2003 1 37 When stepping backward becomes a step forward
December 2, 2003 1 36 The real mark of greatness is in question
November 25, 2003 1 35 The rise of the other religious voice in the public arena
November 18, 2003 1 34 What we do not grieve we cannot reclaim
November 11, 2003 1 33 Before we export it, let's get it back ourselves
November 4, 2003 1 32 Who's being sacrificed for what -- and why?
October 28, 2003 1 31 Here's a new litany for you
October 21, 2003 1 30 Why go to church if you don't do what the pope says?
October 14, 2003 1 29 Coming soon: 'an effective and intelligent campaign'
October 7, 2003 1 28 Let's hear it for the irrational for a change
September 30, 2003 1 27 Don't forget that it's your wall, too
September 23, 2003 1 26 With Isaac and Ishmael in mind
September 16, 2003 1 25 Questioning what news is and why
September 9, 2003 1 24 You want who to do what? Well, par-don me!
September 2, 2003 1 23 Moses, we have a question
August 26, 2003 1 22 It's time to listen to your mother: Watch your language
August 19, 2003 1 21 Here's the question: Who's the real enemy?
August 12, 2003 1 20 It's time to vote in pursuit of our own best interests
August 5, 2003 1 19 Vision: The fine art of seeing the unseen (The IHM story -- Part III)
July 29, 2003 1 18 Justice and power are not synonyms (The IHM story -- Part II)
July 22, 2003 1 17 Setting the record straight (The IHM story -- Part I)
July 15, 2003 1 16 I give up: What is Americanism?
July 8, 2003 1 15 Proceeding in the ways of peace means meeting those we fear
July 1, 2003 1 14 The common cry: Let my people go
June 24, 2003 1 13 Unleashing a power such as the world has never seen
June 17, 2003 1 12 Pogo may have been right
June 10, 2003 1 11 Tipping: the difference between gratitude and expectation
June 3, 2003 1 10 Unless I ask you to write, please don't
May 27, 2003 1 9 Is there anything left that matters?
May 20, 2003 1 8 Reading peace in the signs of the times
May 13, 2003 1 7 Religion: One part solution, one part problem
May 6, 2003 1 6 Truth Stumbles in the Public Square
April 29, 2003 1 5 The Liberation of the Spirit
April 22, 2003 1 4 A Call To Preemptive Patriotism
April 15, 2003 1 3 What Are We Losing by Winning?
April 8, 2003 1 2 A New Moment in Time
April 4, 2003 1 1 A New Low In Congressional Leadership

Still not going to church.
Still not being an annoying jerk telling everyone about how they should live.
Still Christian, and nothing a bunch of false Christians do will change that.

and what I believe is these "rapture rightists" aren't real Christians.

I also believe that God is watching and a lot of these "so-called Christians" may be in for a big surprise when their time comes.

Real Christians love their neighbors whether they are right next door or on the other side of the world. They also feed the hungry, clothe the needy and tend to the sick without questioning what religion they are.

And I would be going to shul tomorrow except that the one good pair of pants I have with me at college are in the wash because I got some coffee on them. Whoops... forgot about that.

There's always next week.

As Gandhi said so well, "I wanted to be a Christian, until I saw them in action."

I had a similar feeling, that troubled me.

But I think I figured it out.

I am a Catholic. With Free Will. Who thinks. On the other hand, the wackos acting out about Terri Schiavo are primarily authoritarian and perhaps fundamentalists, secondarily Christians or Catholics, or even Constitutionally-governed Americans.

Just as the wacko politicians who have hijacked the government are not Republicans or Conservatives, but extremist authoritarian wackos.

but for as wacky as some of the pro-life advocates are, they are not the worst of the lot in this situation: what is worst of all are the politicians and supposed medical professionals who are weighing in in a very unscientific manner to support what is essentially a religious position. If someone is pro-life, I dig it; when someone uses bad science to support the position, I reject it utterly. We are free to choose to believe what we will -- but we are not free to choose to believe and call it science. Frist, Cheshire, the lawyers, Delay -- these are the real monsters in this case....And let's not forget the idiotic media -- who fear to report the facts about Iraq, for fears it will inflame the insurgency, but have made this tragic story their sole focus in the last week in order to keep the hornets' nest of militant fundamentalism in an hysterical frenzy. The Schiavo case may well be the Waco of the current day, and inspire an act of vengence like OK City. I predict it....

I feel for your situation with your parents. I was more fortunate. My Catholic mother requested Hospice, disconnection of nutrition, and cremation. My dear SaraCat -- she died a beautiful death.

There was no funeral. A month after her death, we had an informal family gathering, and then six months on, we attended an ecumenical service arranged by the Hospice. It was great. All along we her survivors have been saying -- heck, all of this was the smartest thing we ever did.

With the high profile of the Schiavo case, I took the liberty to ask my Dad and my sister if they ever had ANY second thoughts about how we conducted matters, and they both agreed with me -- HELL NO!

What we have all found disturbing about the tragic Schiavo case is imagining that ANYONE would have had the power to interfere with the choice my mother had made (NOT Catholic dogma!) and disturb the beautiful peace of her death.

We went through my mother's death, and the years that have followed, with clear conscience, and profound peace. No unnecessary pain, no doubt. Just peace....

I know I am extremely fortunate, and I am grateful. I know people who lost their moms under awful circumstances, and who endured funerals, etc -- and I think how blessed I was that we as a family agreed on the course we chose. It would be my prayer that others would experience death in the manner my mother embraced hers.

when John Lennon's song "Imagine" came out I was in high school, my father was a minister and the church was a big part of my life. I liked the song, but I didn't really get it, other than learning how the church in history had been involved in various forms of greed and oppression.

I'm still involved in my church, but I totally get the song now. I get it at the this-is-happening-right-now gut level. It makes me both sad and angry, because none of these theocrats represent what Jesus was about.

I was raised Lutheran and graduated from Lutheran schools. Over the years I'd distanced myself from the church and gradually allowed myself the luxury of critical thought. My lack of religion was always my own private secret though and I was very respectful towards other peoples beliefs. Recently I've become much MUCH more outspoken about religion because I've come to understand that we have to draw lines. Far to many people accept that anything wrapped in religion is beyond reproach. We can't let that stand. Most people I know have been subjected to my 'religion versus spirituality' rant at least once, and this week they've REALLY been subjected to some anti-religious rants.

I think we have an obligation to speak out, because if people only hear one viewpoint, that viewpoint will become what the culture accepts.

It made my day.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/edito...

It's the most rational thing I read on the Schiavo "case" hands down, and it's by Fr. Charles E. Bouchard, a Catholic Dominican friar, is president and associate professor of moral theology at Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis.