2nd Amendment.

Just heard a caller say to Lynn Samuels (Sirius Left 143)that he had his AK-47 to protect against Government Tyranny.

Can you see a situation in the modern day US where people are rebeling with arms against the US gov't?

At what point would the US gov't become tyrannical? How would you know?

Do you think that the corporate media culture would tell you?

Is the insurgency in Iraq proof that an armed citizenry ensures a government whose power to run roughshod over the public is limited?

I think the 2nd Amendment is a fraud and provides a false sense of freedom.

from an overbearing government - whether it is a far left or far right government.

How do you figure the "insurgency" in Iraq is proof of anything?

Yesterday the Iraqi people were demonstrating AGAINST those Iraqi's/foreigners attacking them and destroying their infrastructure.

Are the US military "foreigners" in your book or just Arabs in general?

I'm sure many innocent Iraqis are tired of the violence from all sides. Especially the 14 years of bombing from the US.

1) Yes, I can see a situation...but I cant think of anything that isn't rather fantastical in the 10-15 years.

2) It already is. Because I have two eyes, two ears, and a brain

3) Not in so many words

4) Yup

5)I think you're wrong. I think its a vital tool for a free people as a last resort. Arms plus the will to fight oppression means that no state of brutal authoritarianism can take root.

your response to #5 as related to the insurgency in Iraq....

The insurgents "see" the US occupation of Iraq as illegitimate (whether you agree with them or not).

Does/will their resistance prevent the US from implementing the type of gov't they want to impose on Iraq?

If their resistance succeeds, then an argument could be made that an armed citizenry does prevent gov't action (i.e. new gov't, tyrannical gov't etc., etc.)

If it does not succeed then the notion that an armed citizenry prevents "gov't abuse" (whatever form that may take) is false.

Foreign powers sending massive military on a mission of conquest (US/Iraq) vs a homegrown uprising against an illegitimate government that isn't backed by some far away superpower (some sort of 2nd American civil war).

it is still an insurgency in Iraq rising up against a perceived illegitimate gov't.

My questions still stand.

and it depends on the level of wide based popular support the rebel faction has.

If indigenous powers/militias see a benefit to working with the new American backed government then they'll do the work of cleaning out the insurgency without too much overt assistance from the Americans, and be able to do it quickly and easily.

If there is a unified specific anti-American movement that is nationwide, we'll never "win".

The "..in a well regulated militia" part. Of course it would require that all the Rambo wannabees would have to find other means of extending their peni.

as it was in the 1780's.

"to govern or direct according to rule"

vs

"adjusted for accurate and proper functioning"

Here's the US Court of Appeals 5th Circuit decision (2001) that defines the terms of the Second Amendment. You should learn what "well regulated," "militia," and "keep and bear arms" mean.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9910331cr0


--IMM

Why does almost every discussion about firearms desolve into comments about a man's penis size?

They have a small standing army, but national defense is largely handled by their militia system. Communities over there have citizen militias where folks go through mandatory training. Members of the militia have their weapons in their homes. All assault rifles are registered and kept by law under lock and key, and the ammunition for the rifles is also registered and is also kept under lock and key, and all are regularly inspected to ensure proper care. In an emergency such as a natural disaster or threat of war, the militias are activated.

It's not a perfect system. I am conflicted over compulsory military training that they have for males, but the fact that they don't blow each other away like we do is intriguing, and I would say it provides better insurance against government tyranny than the model currently employed by the US.

As opposed the Prussian style militia (reservist/national guard) system we wound up with. The Civil war and imperialistic aims in the late 1800's made sure of that.

The Prussian style was much more effective for wars of conquest. The Swiss model is only useful for wars of defense.

Its a myth that ammunition is registered in Switzerland. The government distributes each individual with 24 rounds in a sealed package for emergency use. Ammunition bought at gun stores is "registered" in so far that the sale is recorded, and to whom...but no such regulation governs the sale of ammunition at firing ranges in Switzerland (3,000 of them) and the bulk of Swiss ammunition sales is through those unregulated channels.

Handguns are sold via permit, but the permit is "shall issue"...you get it if you ask for it if your not otherwise prohibited.

And of course, practically every male over the age of 18 has one of these in his house:

They might have been able to stop Fidel and Che from MURDERING them wholesale for daring to stand up to them.

How dare you post an icon of such a murderous thug in a forum devoted to those who cherish liberty?

If we ever have to fight a revolution, it would be hunting rifles versus 50-caliber machine guns, SUVs against Abrams tanks and private aircraft against F-16s - not to mention armor-piercing "hunting" bullets versus nuclear weapons. Should it ever come time that Americans really do have to take up arms against their government to ensure their freedoms -- well, they would have already lost.

We have seen a group of people go from flintlocks, punjee sticks, and scavenging weapons from their dead opponents to kicking America's ass out of Vietnam. We are currently watching a group of "insurgents" go from a disorganized mob to an organized militia, and they too are going to kick America out of Iraq.

Just because there is a disparity in weapons doesn't mean that the government would win in a show down. It is amazing what a group of people, who know the countryside, and are comitted, can do.

The Romans were defeated by the huns and we were driven out of the jungles of Vietnam by the Viet Cong.

Of course, we're talking about Republicans here - not pussies like the huns or the Viet Cong.

And pretty much useless against the most powerful military in the world.

Now, all you 2nd Amendment advocates make an argument that the insurgency in Iraq is being successful to make your point.

who fell to a rag-tag bunch of rebels under the proper circumstances.

And who's to say that if it ever came to the Abyss of civil war or armed insurrection that every single Federalized soldier would automatically side with the government?

That limitation all rests on the determination of the people.

http://www.nfb.ca/thetake/articles/macleans.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When an unsuspecting, comfortable population is confronted with the collapse of their lives, surprising strengths will arise, & self-defense is one of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.onf.ca/thetake/flash/viewPress.php?id=73

November 12, 2004
The Calgary Herald

Lewis Finds Hope Amid Ruin
The Take not a typical documentary By Nick Lewis

~snips~

"It really is David bringing down Goliath."

"Where Roger and Me ended in a feeling of futility of the individual against big business, the workers of The Take have inspired a movement in Argentina. Two hundred other factories around Argentina followed the self-governing movement of Forja San Martin. They arm themselves with slingshots to push back any police sieges, and have managed to secure legislation from the government to legalize these cooperatives. All the co-operatives sport the same slogan, “Occupy, Resist, Produce.”

The Take
http://www.nfb.ca/thetake/


Edited to add more pertinent links.