We could decimate the republicans with Social Security

We could hammer it, yell about it, blow it out and up until it pops - all the while expressing, and inflaming, the public's doubts and fears about what bush and the republicans want to do. We win this.

But its more than that - its about what Bush and the republicans think of the people - middle America - in all its segments. WE, acting as shocked defenders of the average American's interest, could really hammer home the message of who really has their best interest at heart.

This issue cuts across all boundaries. When you're talking about how and if you're going to be able to eat and maintain shelter and pay protection money to the drug companies, you're no longer white or black or Baptist or Catholic or straight or gay - you're an American watching his republican-controlled government try to break the only promise its ever kept.

This is a winning issue, and we should milk it for all its worth. I think its lethal to the other side. Its not called the third rail for nothing.

We are the people, and should be, loudly, them - not giving an inch, in fact, calling for increases in SS spending, putting a human face on it, and at every single opportunity, show that WE are the ones on their, the people's, side, painting bush and the repubs as villains who throw money around with the pentagon and big corporations, but expect "the people" to sacrifice the one guaranteed bit of security they've always counted on.

Its us against them, only this time, bush and the repubs are "them."

There's so much more we could do here than just win the argument. We could use SS to slay the repubs. We could turn their world upsidedown. And we should. This is the issue.


(edited for minor spelling and grammar errors)

We need to slam the shit out of them on this !

* supporter. But he mentioned 2 things before I cut him off. He doesn't agree w/the blivet on SS, nor does he agree about opening the borders. So I'm thinking we're not alone in thinking this admin is subtly trying to sabotage this country.

...and say: "OK fine. Have it your way. Don't complain if it blows up later on".

Then you've just planted a future time-bomb that could decimate democrat candidates that aren't even born yet.

we keep making them out to be the boogeymen.

its all about perception, and its sitting right in front of us like a big ol' stack of clay.

This hairy green monster isn't going away - the demographics are relentless.

When it does meltdown due to apparent neglect who do you think the public will blame? The people who "created it" or the ones who are at that point screaming "we tried to fix it 30 years ago"? At that point, the fine details of plans won't mean a thing to the lynch mobs.

If this really meant a damn thing to the public Kerry would be president right now. I don't see this as a "kill shot" issue.

America won't be America 30 years from now if we don't sieze our opportunities to save it, number one.

Number two, there is no crisis - thirty years from now is thirty years from now. We'll find a solution. Its American, not American't.

Number three, if we can go into deficits to lavish tax cuts on the pharm companies that are raping all of us, we can go into deficits to provide food, shelter, and medicine to the people.

As I said, we shoud move to increase SS.

I don't want any more changes to our institutions being made by that fucking moron bush and his gang of selfish pigs who have already trampled over much of what is good about this nation, and who seem bent to destroy the United States from within..

The "trust fund" doesn't have money in it - congress ALREADY spent and continues to spend that money. It has debt instruments - that would need to be cashed in to be worth anything more than toilet paper - but who cashes them in? US dude, its us. Where do we get that cash 30 years from now? Deficits, taxes, etc. You can't loan your left pants pocket $20 out of your right pocket, spend the $20, then expect it to be there tomorrow.

For better or worse, this IS what we allowed to happen.

I'm not sure this country can go on a big future debt binge to fund the boomers - the demographics don't look all that good 30 years out.

Is the admin's pvt account plan going to help? No.
Would it be "catastrophic" as some want to claim? No.

The obvious way out of this mess is to index the contribution rates and raise the high end limit. Lower the low end rate and raise the upper - today its a fixed rate.

This accomplishes two things - you can claim a "tax cut for the poor and lower middle class" (because the only thing they pay right now is FICA anyway), and claim you're making the rich pay their "fair share" - that kind of schtick always plays well with the masses. The rich won't be happy of course, but they won't have the votes or balls to complain too loudly either.

Make sure the business's share of the contribution increases stays static rate as it is now - put the increase/decrease and indexed stuff on the individual's contribution side --- this will keep business from objecting. If it doesn't impact them too badly, then they won't care much.

We need some creative answers here - the stock rhetoric is not going to work.

or did you just take it that way for some reason?

And, after reading your post, I want to make sure - you're telling me to cut out the "stock rhetoric," right?

:eyes:

I don't believe you realize in what a precarious situation this nation finds itself.

We can focus on what might be in 30 years, or we can face the immediate threats to our nation.

I say we do the latter, because, again, if we don't, there won't be an "America" as we know it in 30 years.

The compromise trail has been tried over an over again.

Its time to draw lines, and stand ground, and yes, even further, be relentelssly agressive.

And then there's that opportunity to win the trust of the people. That might be important.

But you're certainly entitled to fiddle while America is under attack.

Its a free country.

*cough*

for all the extra payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks since Reagan accepted the Greenspan Commission Report in the early 80s.

It amazes me that Reagan still has a reputation as a tax cutter. True, he cut the top marginal INCOME tax rate on the very rich from 70 percent to 28 percent. But that money was made up in large part by a 25 percent INCREASE in the FICA payroll tax rate. The Boomers have prepaid their retirement benefits in full.

You seem to be buying into Alan Greenspan's biggest scam of all.

titled "How Social Security Taxes Subsidize the Rich". BTW, Ch 7 shows that the US has essentially a 'flat tax' when the total tax burden (state and local, federal) are added up. Between 19% to 23% or thereabouts...

wouldn't that be throwing the monkey wrench in the wrong direction?


we don't give an inch

we don't have to wait 30 years for the 'what?plan' to
blow up in the GOP's face ... it already has ...

There isn't even real bill to examine so far is there?

If you jump the gun, then when that bill does appear, it will be tailored in such a way as to make democrats look like damn fools.

Do you really think there's only one player in this game and you can telegraph moves without corresponding adjustments from the other side?

This isn't a couple of 3 year olds playing checkers, this is a chess game ferchrisakes.

you know what its really about is popular perception, which, as the bush regime has clearly demonstrated, doen't require facts.

the repukes are sooooo vulnerable on this issue, bush has touched the third rail, and we can control the voltage.

let them present whatver bill they like - we'll deem it doa and call it an attack on seniors.

over and over again.

we might talk "compromise" when they say uncle.

on second thought, we ought to just leave them out to dry - wither on the vine, as it were.

Democrats and their allies should be launching a full-throated campaign against the Rs on this. We need to make attack ads, we need to circulate talking points among all prominent liberals, we need to get everyone out there talking on TV, radio, and in print media about how outrageous and out of touch the Rs are.

Is is just me, or are the Dems not fighting as hard as they should? They are letting a once-in-a-generation opportunity slip away.

Sorry, I just wanted to get everyone back on track with the most important issue in the history of humanity!

Anyone hear anything about Iraq lately?

I consider the seperation of powers, privacy rights and defense of the Constitution very important. You want another issue to appeal to Americans on? This is it. This is todays battle against the right-wing. We didn't pick it. Now let's bury them with it.

83% of the people are against government intervention in support of the "right to lifers".

Does it need to reach 99% before it becomes worthy of a Democratic response?

n/t

It took me 20 minutes to find a thread that WASN'T about that!

Iraq? What's that?

and way way way more money is involved. Please read "Medicare faces cost crisis-- Multitrillion-dollar deficits loom over federal programs", by SFChronicle's Tom Abate

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/07/BUG0V9N54U1.DTL

"""Medicare's financial difficulties come sooner -- and are much more severe -- than those confronting Social Security,'' the report said. So why does Social Security rather than Medicare top the president's agenda?

"Because Social Security is the easier of the two problems to solve,'' said Texas A&M economist Thomas Saving, who signed the report as a public member of the Social Security and Medicare Trust Fund, the board that oversees the financial health of the two programs. Saving said elected officials of both major parties have been unwilling to face the future costs of federal health care programs.

"I don't have to be as careful,'' said Saving, who outlined the Medicare problem in an analysis issued after the official report.
In his analysis, he writes, "Although policy-makers have focused on the long-run sustainability of Social Security, the financial problem in Medicare is five times as great.''

Looking more than 75 years into the future, Saving estimates that the nation faces a $62 trillion unfunded liability for Medicare -- versus a $12 trillion gap for Social Security.""

And according to Businessweek's article in July 2004 "The Benefits Trap" because of globalization, multinational corporations are dropping pension and healthcare benefits in order to 'compete' with their third-world 'affiliates'. This is really in order to increase the stock prices and pad CEO's pay packages, but the US consumer (read sucker) will pay dearly for this in the end !

The 'freemarket' idolators are fixing up to destroy this here US economy and they're doing a whiz-bang job of it.

Drug treatments represent about 60% of medical costs for the elderly. The costs prevent some from getting the treatment they need early which results in hospitalizations, which are extremely expensive. The costs of drugs, which are bought at retail rates, are a general push to all health care costs.

I say that the Federal government should have a single payer program for ALL pharmaceuticals. It should also assume catastrophic care for all Americans. The private sector and states could assume care coverage, which has remained fairly stable for some time while drugs soar through the roof with huge increases every year.

If the Feds did this, the cost of pharmaceuticals would drop by 60-70%, cutting costs. In addition, by assuming catastrophic coverage, the Federal government could MANDATE preventative care. Diabetes, for example, is hugely expensive. There are some preventative factors that can be required to reduce this rate and help those who struggle.

The looming catastrophe is actually an opportunity since it will force reform and allocation of resources on a rational basis.

the Swiftboat Veterans to sabotage this. This is what the Insurance and HMO industries did to Clinton's attempt at universal health care. They were so effective in destroying it that 70% approval for the plan dropped to I believe it was about 45% and they effectively shot it down with a bunch of propaganda and lies.

We must be prepared to counter them anyway we can.

if you get my drift !

...Where are our people?

But we like to "play nice". How dare you suggest such a thing, when "playing nice" or "playing chess" has been so successful? I think you're just one of those mean spirited libruls everyone's talking about!

its so mean!

:D

:thumbsup:

papers comment column about social security. I often get printed. But even that isn't enough. I have written to Bahy and Lugar, my senators, but only once.

Everyday we should write our papers, our congressman and talk to people about this. Bush doesn't even have a plan, he uses bogus estimates(fuzzy math,) wants to use a system that Britain began under Thatcher in the 80's and it was so bad that they are clamoring for and working to bring back a system similar to ours. Not only did the Brits use private accounts, they used cpi increases instead of wage increases to adjust benefits. Turns out, many who thought they would retire with $20M in yearly benefits, received $5m. I heard and read this on NPR and Krugman(NY Times) does a fantatic job on outing the lies of the dimwit Bush scam.

Social Security works, provides benefits for the disabled as well as the elderly and improves everyones lives. Without SS, many parents would end up living withtheir children who for the most part don't want the burden, fnaacially, emotionally and physically of caring for them, thus the expense would fall on them.Think how dramatically all those middle aged peoples lifestyles would change if they had to take care of mom and dad. Fewer vacations, cheaper cars, fewer nights at their favorite restaurants. SS allows people to live with a personal dignity that they would not otherwise be able to do and improves all of our lives.. It seems that anything that improves peoples lives so dramatically is always under the gun with the greedy repug fuckheads.

the Flea Markets, (very cheep to rent a kiosk), the parking lot of Walmart and (my idea) the baptist churches on Sunday. We have pamphlets made up and we are going to pass them out or put them on cars. I know we might get kicked out of parking lots and maybe JAILED for doing it at the churches but we are going to try. We are also still in the planning part so any ideas would be appreciated.

We had a mathematician come to our meeting and go over in fine detail how this program, even if a person makes 7% on their "private investments" will end up giving less money to a person when they retire. I can't possibly begin to explain it because I've forgotten all but the "less money" part.

...and issue a death knell with pro American worker rights (oppose FTAA) , strong border enforcement and immigration reform.