my niece recovered from a prognosis of brain dead no hope

of recovery. She lost oxygen from being trapped in a faulty crib. The doctors said she would never know her parents, would never be able to feed herself, she would be in a veg. state for the rest of her life. She now walks, talks, feeds herself and knows who she and her friends and family are. She has difficulty seeing and her vocab. is limited. She is and always will be a special needs child. Her parents went all out at any cost to save her. They went to Canada for hyperberric sessions which showed new brain activity in the beginning but stopped after the third series of sessions.
She is a joy to know and to care for.
Could Terry have had any of these successes? Just because a doctor says something doesn't make it fact. We should all know that.

If not then your comparison is worthless.

I thought being a liberal meant having empathy for folks that were in distress and vulnerable....


The original poster spoke from his or her heart....

I did, however, think it had to do with supporting individual rights.

The original poster spoke from the heart... The responding poster summarily dismissed it....


I saw no mention of denial or extension of human righta in the seminal post...


Kisses

Brian

or scrutinized is the message I'm getting.

And with regard to individual rights, I'm addressing what being a LIBERAL means.

You've got one idea of what it means - I've got another.

Lots of well intentioned folks can be wrong , misguided, ill informed, et cetera I was only speaking to the poster's harsh, dismissal of the original poster....


It was an uplifting story regardless of it's relevance or lack of relevance to the Terri Schiavo situation...


It didn't deserve to be shit on....

Brian

the comparison was useless. And it was, on the grounds that it describes a completely different medical condition.

eom

But no one ever dismissed the poster's feelings about his or her neice or the experience of her recovery.

mondo joe (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-26-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #11

16. I never thought being a liberal meant having no critical capacity.


I did, however, think it had to do with supporting individual rights

I didn't even realize I had the power to do such a thing.

I politiley pointed out to another poster I questioned the tone of his post and you launched into a discussion about individual rights and critical capacity.....

I was just exercising my right to free speech...


I know this is the internet and all but I am sure in your life folks have come up to and said "you know mondo joe you were right but you could have said things a little differently" or perhaps in real life you are the epitome of sensitivity or you are in a heartless environment where folks feelings don't matter...

responded yes you do.

Did I fail to answer your question?

With regard to individual rights, I was addressing your comment about what it means to be a liberal. Please look back and you can see that easily enough.

You have an opinion about what being a liberal means. I have a different opinion, which is that it is about respecting individual rights.

In non-internet life I am somewhat aloof and tend to the rational. But I would not likely be described as heartless, though I have very little patience or sympathy for failures in logic or poor boundaries.

"You have an opinion about what being a liberal means. I have a different opinion, which is that it is about respecting individual rights"


You are assuming that I favor limitations on individual rights....

That may or may not be correct but there wasn't enough information about what being a liberal means to me for you to conclude I favor limitations on individual rights...

Thank you.

Happy Easter

Brian

I guess there has been too many people who don't understand what was unique to this case over other tragedies that I just get a little cranky seeing them trying to draw comparisons. If I offended the original poster...I am sorry. I did not mean to. I stick by my post's meaning though.

This has been going on for almost 15 years, and she's been through treatments and diagnosis, etc. My hunch is that if there were any hope for recovery, it would have been evident by now.

Therapy and oxygen help hugely. The media don't tell the details about what has already been tried to help her. It might end the ruckus and ratings if all of the facts were presented. If all has been tried and failed then of course she should pass in peace, not in this farce.

to try and rehabilitate her in the first three years or so. Someone posted a summary of the GAL report here a couple of days ago, I will try to find it. It is worth a read.

designed to trigger brain activity, with no reaction.

Schiavo has no cerebral cortex. That is a very large difference from how you describe your niece.

terri had other medical problems that a baby would not have.

this is Terri's brain in 2000.

I missed that thread.

except for the right-wing nut Nobel Prize Nominated "doctor" who claimed he could rehabilitate her and "Doctor" Bill Frist who diagnoses patients via 5-year old video, this woman's cortex had liquified. X-rays and MRIs confirmed the diagnosis.

You Niece may be a real-life miracle, Schiavo is a real-life tragedy being used for political gain.

And it's all based on fact. And case histories.

More than 100 doctors have examined Terri Schiavo. So it is not just a single doctor who "says something". Are you willing to say that "just because 100+ doctors say something doesn't make it a fact?" That starts to sound like reaching to me.

Some things work and I thought she might have been denied some of these therapies. But, I see, that much has been done for her and failed.

...'cause, frankly, I see a myriad of complexities here. And I'm delighted for your niece and her family.

I think a lot of the outrage from the left is related to the RW's exploitation of the issue... which is BLATANTLY political.

Also, please note: It wasn't just one Doctor that passed judgment on Terri's condition and potential; it seems to have been about 50.

Yes, theoretically, they could all be wrong. But not bloody likely, I don't think.

1. infant brains are different than adult brains. It is well documented that in the relatively undifferentiated brain, health tissue can assume the responsibilities of a damaged area. For example, if the speech center is destroyed by illness or trauma, the child may still be able to learn to speak using another part of the brain. This ability is much diminished in the differentiated ("hard-wired") adult brain.

2. Mrs Shaivo received whatever treatment she received at the time of her heart failure and in the months immediately following (I'm sure the catalog is documented here on DU, somewhere). It was probably very extensive and reasonably high quality care. Her brain was just too far gone. IIRC she was clinical dead for 10 minutes, not just briefly oxygen deprived.

3. Mrs Shaivo's condition is described as PVS and has not improved in many years, reducing the probability of her "snapping out of it."

4. The CT scan of Mrs Shaivo's brain shows that the area responsible for all higher function has been replaced by fluid. You can't think with what is not there.

Infant brains are still developing. Children's brains aren't totally developed until around the age of 3, so there's a lot of healing that can happen.

And #4 pretty much sums up why all this talk means nothing in this case.

Yes or no, please.

with terminal cancer, and she's been healthy now for 10 years. You're right, sometimes doctors misjudge.
However...
My niece and yours (how long in PVS?) did not recover after 15 years in a hospital bed. Neither did either one (I'm guessing) express wishes to die rather than remain in a vegetative state.
I think it's wonderful that your neice recovered. I have a cousin with Down syndrome who is a joy to the family, so it's not about the disability.
It's about the wishes of the afflicted.

medical findings are a tool the individual can use in making their own determination.

Yes, GV. Your post gets to the crux of the issue. While I can understand that someone seeing an apparent miracle in a child would wish to extend that possibility to this case, it misses both the expressed wishes of the afflicted, the duration of existence under circumstances that most would consider very poor quality of life, and the very real differences between both adults and young children's brains and capacity for recovery.

To the original poster, I too am very pleased at what has happened for your very beloved niece--and can certainly understand the desire that a miracle could exist for people like Schiavo. After 15 years, countless tests, very consistent physician diagnoses and prognoses, experimental treatments, and innumerable prayers, the aging process alone has done its damage. My wish for someone like Schiavo is to have a very caring, thoughtful process take place in terms of any decisions--which has clearly occurred-- and for her to now be at peace.

that all had been done to help Terry. I needed to know that to come to my own opinion of this matter. It appears her wishes of not being kept alive this way should be granted.
Thanks for your input.

disinformation has been spread, so a lot of people aren't sure of what has or hasn't happened.

This whole discussion could have ended and the family could have made the hard decision without involving the whole world. But, alas, ratings would not have been so great and oh well. Thanks to you all. Lots of love to my DUers.

"facts" about Terri's condition.

I think giving all the crackpots an open mike to make factually erroneous statements without ever being called to task on them is no different than giving the same to holocaust deniers.

in this world like you. Maybe we wouldn't have so many wars and hate fests. We need People who can objectively look at the facts and come to an intelligent conclusion. Be big enough to admit they changed their minds through better knowledge/research on the subject.
Here's to you! :toast:

I would say yes, she absolutely would have a chance of recovery. Most major neurological recovery is made in the first few months after an injury, and slows down after that. Her chances would not have been as good as those of your niece because adult brains are not as adaptable as those of children. However, for someone like Terry, there was plenty of reason to hope in the first 6 months to a year after her injury that she would recover consciousness, though it would have been likely that some permanent disability would remain. This is why the aggressive treatment and rehabilitation attempts provided to Terry in the first few years after her injury were 100% appropriate. However, over time Terry's condition has worsened rather than improved. While her spinal reflexes are intact and she does have sleep-wake cycles, she has never shown any signs of actual awareness of her environment. I think cases in which brain stem function is intact are often particularly difficult for family members to deal with, because they will often laugh or cry, fooling family members into believing that their loved one is in some sense aware. However, these facial expressions are the result of the random activation of reflex arcs in the spinal cord, not emotional reactions that would require input from intact higher cortical centers. According to the doctor who examined her on the Florida court's behalf, her EEG is "flat". This means the patterns of rhythmical electrical activity that would expect to see in a waking, or even a sleeping cortex were simply not there.

My heart goes out to her family members on both sides of this tragedy, as it is not uncommon at all for families to be torn apart in situations like these as those left behind struggle with their own grief and with what the wishes of her loved ones might have been. However, let us be clear that this is NOT a case of a disabled woman being thrown away due to her disability. This is a woman who has remained unconscious for 15 years and indicated to some of her loved ones that she would not want to be kept in such a state indefinitely.

the longer one is in a pvs...the more the possibility for recovery decreases exponentially. If there were documented recovery and if it were her wishes to linger indefinitely waiting for it, I wouldn't give up hope.

If it were my family member, I'd go by what they expressed their wishes to be. If they made no such expression, I'd do everything in my power to save them until there was no hope.

they don't get sued if things turn out worse than they promissed.

Also, it's hard to diagnose cognitive function in a baby since they can't talk even if they're 100% ok.

Doctors don't necessarily give worst-case scenarios to avoid a lawsuit, because some patients and/or their families will sue no matter what; I would venture to say that doctors give worst-case scenarios to avoid giving patients and their families false hope.

False hope is cruel.

Remeber the Hairy Hand case from the Paper Chase?

And it is possible that she was originally misdiagnosed.
When you have 1 or 2 docs taking care of your niece, that is very different than the number that have examined and diagnosed Terri.
I do believe in medical miracles, and it certainly sounds as if your niece may have been one of those cases.
I would personally NEVER advocate the same treatment for a child that is advocated for an adult...growth and development are always a new chance for the body to heal itself. When the growing and developing stops, then your chances certainly seem to be fewer.
That being said--very happy for your niece and your family.

I don't think it was a hit/run post.

First you post you don't buy it, now this. What don't you buy and why the accusations?

I'm not buying it.

do you have a # that you look for before you make your claim?
And, you didn't answer the question, what don't you buy? Are you calling me a liar? I am leaving the house now to run errands. You may send me a message if you like.
Gee what's up with you?

Be back in 3 hours. Thought I might have to let Star know so he wont be mean or anything.

why would you be surprised at this reaction.

Wouldn't you expect this, comparing the brain state of a baby with that of a PVS patient that has been this way for 15 years?

15 years.

Get that?

It has been way too long for this woman. Understand, 15 years ago technology was not as advanced as it is today! There may have been some hope right after her heart attack and collapse, but the only "hope" I could imagine now would be some sort of stem cell brain transplant and to my knowledge THAT technology has been stifled by this administration. It may still be being researched, but no insurance company is going to approve it for Schiavo!

Death is a normal and natural part of life. Have faith that Terri has been called to God's side. If you don't have faith, just try to understand the reality of Terri's situation. Her parents are, rightfully, not willing to let her go, but the reality is Terri's soul is trapped in a useless body and she is unable to to do anything about it!

I'm glad your niece made it out of her mess and I agree whole heartedly with you. It is a wonderful thing she is walking, talking, and playing, regardless of the fact she has disabilities. She is in a much better place than Terri will ever be!

Please stop posting other success stories. Unfortunately they all happened in less than ten years. As you know, Terri is a 15 year girl, and this is Logans Run. Time to kill her off.

Doesnt matter that babies who have be described as having no cerebreal cortex were later found to have it crushed by spinal fluid. Girl is no longer human. Let's Starve!

FYI, when the brain has been replaced by fluid, the brain does not "grow back." only reptiles, starfish, and a few other animals are capable of regeneration.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:spank:

unwilling to see the truth. Sad, very sad!

There is a certain point of no return period! No one deprived Terri of available treatments.

BTW, I have been through this scenario with a loved one! Her outcome was death and we did not put her through the torture of tube feeding her and keeping her trapped in a body she had no control over or with a mind that did not function.

I am really and truly appalled by statements like this and it is RIDICULOUS for people to make them! Also a bit delusional IMO!

Even in limited damage there is a low chance of the brain overcoming the injury. The brain can sometimes manage to reconnect to critical portions of itself. But this is difficult.

But no matter the difficulty it requires brain to reconnect to. If the damage is too severe and too large then there simply is no way for it to reconnect to.

This is exactly the situation in Terri's case. Her damage has been so damaged that even if a miraculous amount of growth occurred in her brain there is nothing for it to reconnect to. 90% of her cerebral cortex has rotted away. It has been replaced by spinal fluid. There is nothing of the person left. There is no where near enough brain left to create a mind.

People keep trying to compare the external symptoms of this case to other cases with similar external symptoms. It does not bear comparison. The actuallity of the matter is drastically different in most cases. Various different forms of damage can lead to very similar external symptoms. The symptoms alone are insufficient to diagnose the situation. Particularly for ametuer armchair doctors.

It sounds like the niece referred to in the OP's story was very young, an infant or toddler. It has been documented that brain damage in very young humans does not always spell disaster.

The very young brain has not finished growing and developing, and it can recover and/or compensate for a lot of things. It has healing abilities that the adult brain no longer has.

Love to you, your niece and her parents.

I was hoping to get this cleared up in my mind. I hadn't read anything about the procedures Terri had been through and the media sure was not willing to inform us. So, I just didn't know. Now I am relieved to know the facts and agree that she should go peacefully surrounded by family and friends.

My niece was a baby, 3 months old. She had excellent doctors who said she would never recover, etc, all that I said in my earlier post. I see that this case doe not apply here and relieved that all was done for Terry.

for your niece.
I'm sure the family has some tough days but they have their daughter.

However, I feel it's time to let Terri go. That's just how I feel.