What if Terri Schiavo was "Terri Shabbaz"?

Would this whole situation being playing differently?

Say that many of the facts of the matter are the same, except that the Schindler/Schiavos are black muslims rather than white christians.

1) Terri has her misfortune 15 years ago and is in her present state.

2) The family (or husband) has recieved some malpracrice judgements.

3) The husband has gone to court to have Terri's artificial means to life ended.

4) The husband has found another woman and has fathered some children while still technically married to Terri.

5) The parents make the challenge they're currently making, etc.

Does this play out the same way? Does Jeb Bush propose "Terri's law" in ther first place? Does the US Congress and president intervene? Does the fundie freakshow take place at the hospice (where there are OTHER sick people and their families trying to visit and comfort)?

I think not. Any other opinions?

because Islamic doctrine opposes the removal of the feeding tube in this situation...


I read this in yesterday's Orlando Sentinel in a discussion of how different religions treat this issue...

:eyes: Why is it that we repeatedly lose sight of the rights of the individual and the due process for determining their intent?

because if she and her husband were practicing Muslims we can logically assume that they accept the tenets of their faith which includes opposing the removal of the feeding tube in this situation .... In other words the chances of either one expressing such sentiments are small....



What part of that don't you understand..

...to most religions.

that somebody professing a religious belief subscribes to a single, monolithic interpretation of that faith, which is clearly not the case.

I've known moslems who eat pork. I've known moslems who wear gold. I've known moslems who do a lot of things that aren't traditionally "moslem".

Your point is no more true than saying becuase the Schiavo's are Catholic, they would never consider removing a feeding tube.

but it is reasonable to assume that a member of a particular faith trys to be loyal to the tenets of that faith...


Is it not?


Ow why would they be a member of that faith in the first place?

how many US Catholics use birth control? How many engage in sex outside of marriage? How many christians get divorced? How many christians work on Sundays?

I miss your point...


Most members of a religion try to be faithful to the tenets of their religion... Some wander...Some take a cafeteria approach;embracing the tenets they like, ignoring or rejecting the tenets they don't but if there was no desire to be faifthful to a religion a rational person would reject it and find another or elect to have no religion at all...

if so many catholics and other christians in the US violate basic tenets of their religion, your assertion that because the hypothetical woman in this case was moslem, there wouldn't be a question about her life-support wishes, was simply wrong.

Saying that "she's moslem, therefore would not want the tube removed" is equivalent to saying "Oh, she's christian - she can't get a divorce."

I am stating that a practing Muslim would be more likely to show fidelity to the tenets of the Islamic faith than a Hindu, Jew, Christian, or non-believer....


Or I should have said...

It is the will of Mohammed as revealed by Islamic scholars and physicians that the removal of the feeding tube in this situation is prohibited...

I also question the assertion embodied in your statement that most Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, etcetera don't try to be faithful to the tenets of their faith...

but I think you'll find that very very few practicing people of ANY religion, at least here in the US, remain faithful to the tenets of their faith.

The divorce rate alone shoots down your argument. As does this:

http://www.uscatholic.org/soundboard/1998/jun/bc2.html

which states:

"A 1992 Gallup poll showed that 80 percent of U.S. Catholics disagreed with the statement "Using artificial means of birth control is wrong." And a 1996 study conducted by Father Thomas Sweetser for the Parish Evaluation Project found only 9 percent of Catholics who consider birth control to be wrong."

I have a colleague here at UC Boulder who considers herself a practicing Muslim. However, she does not wear a veil or chador, she does not take Fridays off (because that would inconvenience far more of her students than a few) and instead worships on either Saturday or Sunday; she has been known to indulge in alcohol, though not pork since she's a vegetarian; and she is very heavily pro-choice and pro-women's rights. She is here because she can practice as she feels Allah would have wanted her to practice, rather than in her home country in India.

Please don't make generalizations that a practicing Muslim is more faithful than a practicing <insert religion here>. It's just not true. Religious people come in many different flavors, and each person makes her own peace with her faith and the level of observance she is comfortable with.

You say there are more Catholic using birth control than you can count.

You then go on to say "if there was no desire to be faifthful to a religion a rational person would reject it and find another or elect to have no religion at all".

For clarification: Are you saying Catholics who use birth control, thus being unfaithful to Catholic doctrine, are not rational?

If you are, that's quite a statement.

If not, the Muslim Shabazz family could opt to discontinue life support with no more conflict with their doctrine or irrationality than the countless birth control using catholics.

Where religious affiliation is voluntary folks will choose a religion whose tenets they embrace....


And if one of the tenets of Islam is that hydration and nutrition can not be withheld from a patient in a persistent vegetative state then I would assume a Muslim is more likely to be faithful to that tenet than a non-Muslim...


If I wanted to eat ham, drink Johnny Walker Red, and have uncircumcised sons I would not become a Muslim where religious affiliation is voluntary...

empirically, your belief does not play out.

If so, christians would have a lower divorce rate than non-christians, and catholics would have a lower use rate of birth control than non-catholics.

Your beliefs notwithstanding, it simply isn't true.

You seem to be saying that since Catholics violate the tenets of their faith many Muslims do also...

Would you agree that your argument would be more impressive if you could provide us with such numbers...

I have already demolished your argument. I don't think anything further is necessary.

You are the judge of the power of your own arguments...

When you went to school did you grade your own essays....


You could have been an Olympic gymnast and after you performed you could have run to the judging table and held up a ten...

You implied that since Catholics violate their faith Moslems do too...


Prove it.....

don't have to. You made some assertions that were easily disproven.

But if it helps... I've known moslems who eat pork. There, proven that not all moslems subscribe to one universal, monolithic set of beliefs and actions.

conversation about Catholicism when my example was a Muslim...

And it's a non sequitar to infer that because most Catholics violate the tenets of their faith most Moslems do to...

And your little anecdote about a pork eating Muslim is not instructive...


We are not discussing wheteher apostate Muslims exist but whether enough apostate Muslims exist to make a meaningful correlation between Muslim tenets and Muslim actions...


You offered the proposition that since most Catholics violate their church's teachings on sexuality that most Muslims violate the tenets of their religion too...

I am waiting to see evidence that supports that proposition...

"Where religious affiliation is voluntary folks will choose a religion whose tenets they embrace...."'

And is the middle east not torn in part by conflicting ideas of what Islamic tenets are?

that they are inherently more religious than Catholics?

isn't that a little goofy?

"We are not discussing wheteher apostate Muslims exist but whether enough apostate Muslims exist to make a meaningful correlation between Muslim tenets and Muslim actions..."

you're imagining a monolithic "Muslim" group where none exists. like Christianity, its hundreds of splintered pieces in all flavors, full of fakes, frauds, phonies, authentic seekers, good people, bad people, etc. Just like Catholics. Just like Protestants. Just like... humans.

They're all pretty similar, they just have cosmetic details scrambled. Sure, to a believer this is rank heresy and deviltalk - but from where I'm standing, there's precious little difference between the lot of you.

I'm always suspicious of attempts to divide the Muslim world and the
"west" - as if we didn't have the same sickeningly familiar human traits underneath cultural trappings.

I just question the assertion that because most Catholics are apostates we can infer that most Muslims are too....

You seem to be implying that I am maligning Muslims by saying they are true to their faith or at least most of them... I would think they would applaud that observation...


The poster was quick to cite a link that Catholics in great numbers deviate from the tenets of their faith and rested his assertion that most Muslims deviate from the tenets of their faith on that factual foundation...


I challenged that assertion... Still do... And requested documentation...


Now there's two people looking for it....

if your knowledge of Islam consists of "well, there's uh - Shi'a and Sunni..." - then you're going to need to learn a lot more than an internet thread is going to tell you.

"You seem to be implying that I am maligning Muslims by saying they are true to their faith or at least most of them... I would think they would applaud that observation..."

why? it seems slightly racist to me, actually. that somehow these darker skinned people are inherently truer to their professed faith than lighter skinned folks. why? what on earth leads you to that conclusion?

Have you ever walked around one of those fabled "Arab streets?" There's a lot more than praying towards Mecca going on.

how would you begin to know what "most" Muslims think? you're requesting documentation from other people, yet are willing to make sweeping pronouncements with absolutely nothing to go on?

"if your knowledge of Islam consists of "well, there's uh - Shi'a and Sunni..." - then you're going to need to learn a lot more than an internet thread is going to tell you."

How many sects of Islam are there and what percentage of them are other than Sunnni ans Shia?

"You seem to be implying that I am maligning Muslims by saying they are true to their faith or at least most of them... I would think they would applaud that observation...why? it seems slightly racist to me, actually. that somehow these darker skinned people are inherently truer to their professed faith than lighter skinned folks. why? what on earth leads you to that conclusion?"

I thought Muslims come in all colors... When Malcom X visited Mecca one of the first things he observed was that the pilgrims came in all colors... I wish I had the quote from his autobiography... It was beautiful...

And I take umbrage at the fact you are accusing me of being slighlty racist... I would take more umbrage if I took the charge seriously..

"Have you ever walked around one of those fabled "Arab streets?" There's a lot more than praying towards Mecca going on"

Got me there... No... I have never been to Spain either...


"how would you begin to know what "most" Muslims think? you're requesting documentation from other people, yet are willing to make sweeping pronouncements with absolutely nothing to go on?"

I just presume a Muslim is one who observes the tenets of the Muslim faith...

"I just presume a Muslim is one who observes the tenets of the Muslim faith..."

Since Muslims are not monolithic when it comes to what the tenets ARE much less following them, which do you presume they will follow?

Would Mrs. Shabazz wear a Chadoor? Would she drive?

Cant't Drive...

As for the chador a Muslim woman would be more likely to wear on than a Catholic...

would follow?

If you say she would follow Muslim tenets I need to know which.

And what do you make of all the Muslims not following those tenets -- are they sufficient for you to appreciate that Muslims don't necessarily follow tenets of Islam?

"And what do you make of all the Muslims not following those tenets -- are they sufficient for you to appreciate that Muslims don't necessarily follow tenets of Islam?"


I stand by the simple proposition that a Muslim is more likely to follow the tenets of the Muslim faith...


I never disallowed for apostates or how these tenets are interpeted...


Here's some questions for you?


Tomorrow's Easter... How many people in Saudi Arabia will be sitting down to a nice ham dinner...


For that matter how many Hindus will be having a Big Mac today?

Those questions might seem inane but it illustrates that there is certain shared values among religious cohorts..

And please provide evidence to support your claim.

They Didn't Require Verification...


I'll leave it to others to estimate how many people in Saudi Arabia will be sitting down to a traditional Easter ham dinner tomorrow.*


*Besides the nearly six million guest workers many of whom aren't Muslim...

every tenet does require verification?

I'm sorry, but the goalpost on this has moved so much no one knows where it is anymore.

of Islam?

I'd think even without documentaton you would see that some Muslims say the tenets include suicide bombings, some don't, some believe women need to be covered head to toe, others don't.

Surely someone is not following the tenets.

I don't give a flying f*ck whether the patient uses Islam, Catholicism, Chinese Fortune Cookies, or the Magic Eight Ball to guide their choice regarding such artificial life support measures. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference - and we don't have to "assume" a f*cking thing! What part of that don't you understand??

He specifically chose a name that most folks would consider that of a Moslem...

That was my point....


You can say fuck ... I'm a big boy.....

Love,

Brian

knew of modern technology all those many years ago

"Under such conditions, however, the basic human rights of hydration, nutrition, nursing and pain relief cannot be withheld. These may be carried out at home or in an institution as the case warrants. Palliative care units or institutions would answer such need, but we are not certain whether this justifies the branching off of a full-blown medical specialty for palliative care



http://islam-usa.com/e2.html

That's why there are no Catholics who use birth control.

But I think we can safely assume most Muslims have some degree of fidelity to their faith....

how much fidelity?

no, it isn't safe to assume such things when you're talking about millions upon millions of people.

and I think Islam is broken into two sects :Shia and Sunni...

I don't think there is a difference when it comes to this issue...

wanted life support removed that they would find a way to do it and reconcile it with their faith?

If I'm wrong about you having said that, I sincerely apologize.

What I might have said is that the Schindler's in their desperation would have used any rationalization to keep their daughter alive....

It's all too easy to confuse who said what on DU. Thanks.

divorce or have abortions or practice homosexuality have "some degree of fidelity to their faith" despite their violation of church doctrine?

maintain Islamic law to "some degree of fidelity to their faith", why is it beyond your ken to say what Catholics would do?

we'd probably hear 50% less about her as well....

Just like Lacey Peterson. The Media didn't pay attention to her because there was a crime. How many women were murdered in the last 3 years that we never heard about? No clue...but I sure have seen those shots of poor poor poor *attractive* Lacy.

And we've got the convenient addition of this being in Florida...wonder if there would have been a peep if this had been in Oregon or Vermont...probably not because the political mileage would have been nil.

I'll readily admit there is confusion and tragedy aplenty in both of these cases...but guess what...THEY ARE NOT UNIQUE excepting that they are possibly a bit more photogenic.

We don't have news. We don't really have politics any more either. We have Distraction and Entertainment.

500 channels of 24/7 E! exclusives.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

This wouldn't even been an issue since the doctors wouldn't have gone to any extra measures to save her.

I worked in an emergency room for a while, and I was amazed at the racial bias of the doctors. Even the black and Indian doctors just didn't care for poor or black patients as well as they should. I was convinced race played the biggest issue, but several coworkers thought the ability to pay had more to do with it.

This wouldn't even been an issue since the doctors wouldn't have gone to any extra measures to save her.

I worked in an emergency room for a while, and I was amazed at the racial bias of the doctors. Even the black and Indian doctors just didn't care for poor or black patients as well as they should. I was convinced race played the biggest issue, but several coworkers thought the ability to pay had more to do with it.

Her husband couldn't hold down a job, and she worked as a clerk in an insurance company.

we wouldn't be having this discussion.

the way shootings and rapes are treated in white versus black neighborhoods. White areas tend to make the papers and black areas don't