Terri Schiavo's eyes and tongue are now bleeding,

Well, Terri Schiavo's eyes and tongue are now bleeding, and her
flesh is flaking off. Nine days without food or water will do that
to a person.


I must say, If I ever felt alienated from my own society, the
horrendous mishandling of this Schiavo case has made me even more
so.


Most people have some pretty strong opinions about this case. And
I'm sure that you all have seen it and heard of the arguments on
both sides. Here are my thoughts, which I give with a heavy heart.



I am not an extremist when it comes to the concept of the "Culture
of Life". But it is a concept that I believe strongly in. What do I
mean by "Culture of Life"? It's very simple:


"When there is reasonable doubt, or unanswered questions, we as a
society will choose to err on the side of Life."


That's it. It seems pretty simple.


Do I believe in Euthanasia? Sure. If a person in a condition near
death who has no hope of recovery desires death, and if that person
is of sound mind to make such a decision, they should be taken off
life support.

Even though it is illegal for our doctors to actually give drugs
that will end a person's life quick and painlessly, denying life
support and giving cautious "big doses" of drugs like Morphine (or
other drugs) can hasten the end.

My mother in law is a nurse, and she has seen elderly people die
after their doctors secretly gave doses of morphine that they knew
were a bit much, but they also knew of the wishes of the family and
the suffering person.



But this Shiavo situation defies most judgement. Let's look at a few
reasons why:



1. Terri is not in a coma; she is in a state that (up till now)
we've never had a legal battle over.

2. Terri is not on life support. She simply gets nutrition and
hydration from a tube- which is only a hair's difference from
severely mentally handicapped people that I myself have been
employed caring for- people with IQ's in the range of 30 and 40;
they spent their lives sitting still and staring, and had to be fed
and hydrated by nurses.


Terri rather seems to be in the same position as a severely mentally
handicapped person. There is no law allowing for the families of
severly mentally handicapped people to tell the staff at a care
center to stop feeding them or giving them water, "because they
wouldn't want to be this way."


But let's go a bit further. The Husband says she wouldn't have
wanted to live like this. If this is true, it's really a fucking
shame that Terri didn't leave a living will behind, no written
evidence, nothing. Do I trust the husband? Yes, to an extent. I
don't think he's in this for money. What he says Terri said may in
fact be true.


But the situation still isn't so simple.

1. They are starving and dehydrating a person to death. The same
system that will be "brave" enough to give her up to a slow death
won't be fucking brave enough to give her a shot that will kill her
painlessly and quickly.


2. This woman's eyes move; she has facial expressions, she makes
noise. They claim she laughs, and that she has cried on more than
one occassion.



So, some REALLY brilliant doctors assure us that she is
a "Vegetable"- she has no "Self awareness", no "consciousness".

My question: How in THE FUCK could they possibly know that? Did they
leave their bodies, enter hers, and experience life as Terri? There
isn't the first shred of evidence for their claim; they don't know;
they just think it. They may have some grounds to think it. There is
little to no activity in her Cerebral Cortex. Fine.

But the brain (like the body) is an amazing thing- when people get
brain damage, the damaged part's functions tend to be taken over by
another region. There is every bit of opportunity for Terri to have
another "Seat of awareness" in her damaged brain than just the one
that they claim is damaged beyond repair.


How many damn times do people come out of Comas and claim that they
were totally aware of what was happening around them? How many
others claim that they dreamed, and report other life experiences?



But let's go back to the Culture of Life.

It has been said, by both ancient and modern commentators, that a
society can be judged by how it treats its most helpless members.
When they say "Helpless", they mean both the handicapped, the ill,
and prisoners.

When another person's Fate is in our hands totally, how we treat
that is our test. It says something about who and what we are.


The Judges in this case don't have their daughters laid up with a
feeding tube. Is Terri self aware? To be honest with you, I don't
give a shit if she is or not. She's alive, and this means something
to me. It implies a responsibility on our part.


My critics say that there is a difference between "Life"
and "Living". They say that she may be Alive, but she is not Living.


I really hate this kind of talk; once again, how in the hell could
these people know? A person can live a life within themselves; I do
it all the damn time.

But who gets to decide what "living" means? Are you not "living"
until you can work, talk, pay taxes, or something like that? Do you
have to laugh on demand at clever jokes and watch TV? Do you have to
be able to feed yourself before you are "living"?


This entire case stinks of rotting feces. The Legal aspect of it
rots. This woman and her family were given appeals, and yet, her
tube was not re-inserted until all her appeals were up. What the
fuck do you call that? Miscarriage of justice.


I already hated the Bipartisan system that we have. Now I hate it
more. Why is Terri about to die? Because a judge who was appointed
by Clinton was given the power to decide whether or not she should
live or die.

Yes- this is a case of Republicans vs. Democrats. That's all. There
is no judge here willing to be FUCKING OPEN MINDED and really look
at both sides of this case. The parents were hoping their appeal
would go to a Republican, knowing that such a judge would say "put
the tube in". It went to a Democrat instead, who said "take it out".

And that's it. These judges are deciding on party lines, not based
on the REAL ISSUES at hand here. There is no one willing to really
look at this case outside of their bullshit party agenda. This is
why we NEED a third and fourth party- independants, progressives,
whatever, SOMEONE to break this deadly stalemate that chokes our
country.

All we have are the republicans (capitalist asshole warmongering
fundy christians) and the democrats (capitalist asshole utopian
sorta christians) and both parties are in the pockets of the same
big, evil corporations. No decision is made in our country that
doesn't go back to some corporates getting rich. Not one. The good
of people is secondary. Our reprehensible prison systems, our lack
of funding for education, the environment, lack of funding for crime
fighting, all these things prove it: our priorities are far from the
good of common people.




1. There is no criteria for Terri's condition. A case like this is
unprecedented. There have been two others similar, but none that
have these exact conditions, these mitigating circumstances. Terri
is not in a coma; she is not technically on Life Support. She is a
profoundly mentally disabled woman that needs to be fed and
hydrated. That is it.

2. There are clear reasonable doubts in this case. Terri and her
Family are Catholic, a church that is against Euthanasia. We have no
proof that Terri would have wanted to be cut off from nutrition and
hydration. If she DID want to be, well, she may have just lucked up.
But if she didn't we are witnessing a crime of terrible proportions.



I have to side with life in cases of doubt. I think that any
reasonable or compassionate person should and would. People say she
has no life; that she is alive but not living. I say that I don't
care. I say that this sort of talk is the first step towards de-
humanizing people who can't speak and eat on their own, people who
are disabled and helpless, just so we can save some fucking money
and kill them.


I believe in giving the voiceless the benefit of the doubt. I also
don't think that you can ever go wrong siding with life.


Once, a very wise man from India (who called himself "Buddha") was
asked if a man who had murdered several other people should be put
to death. The men who asked Buddha this question wanted to trap him;
they knew if he said "yes" or "no" they could criticize him- if he
said "yes", they could claim that he didn't believe in non-violence
and compassion as he claimed he did; if he said "no", they could say
that he was against justice and a supporter of crime.


Do you know what this great man's answer was?


"Yes, if this man did as you say, I agree that he deserves to die.
But this is not to say that he should be killed- in life, many
situations will arise that are difficult, and we will not always
know what is Wise- but we always know what is Compassionate. And
ultimately, a person cannot go wrong siding on the side of
compassion."


That same sage later had to face a dangerous man that had killed a
thousand people, and who seemed as though he was going to kill
Buddha, as well. Buddha told him that he didn't mind dying,
especially if the man could use his dead body (which the man
intended to; this killer collected the fingers of his victims and
wore them on a long rosary) but Buddha asked him to grant him a
final request- he asked the killer to hack a branch off of a nearby
tree. The killer did, and then Buddha asked him to re-attach it.

When the man laughed and told him that he could cut but not re-
attach branches, Buddha said "if people can destroy but not create,
then they should not destroy. For a child can hack a branch off, and
be quite destructive; this takes no bravery. But only a master can
re-attach it."

The killer realized the error of his ways at this point. He ceased
cutting people's heads and fingers off.



I think that these stories echoe long down to us today. Do we know
what is Wise in this situation? It is hard to know. Do we know what
is compassionate? Sure. To at least not harm this woman is
compassionate. Are we the masters that authored her life, and can we
give it back to her? No, we are not, and no, we cannot. Should it be
taken? It seems not. At any rate, this is our test. I fear that we
are failing.



I hope that the Gods grant Terri an easy passage and that her
unknowable destiny beyond this life remains a peaceful one, for all
time. I regret having to be a mute, helpless person watching another
person die for political reasons, prejudices, and the idiot
blindness of a society that has lost touch with the roots of life. I
believe in the eventual triumph of life despite all this.

michael schiavo and his attorney contend she looks the most at peace they've ever seen her.

i tend to believe micheal schiavo in this case

Excuse me, but I watched my brother die and none of these thing happened to him.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I believe him before I believe a crackpot sign. The fundies argued prior to this that this is natural death and it is wrong to ease a person's passing.

...I have heard from several people who have just seen her who say that is indeed NOT the case. That her lips are not chapped or bleeding, and that she is resting comfortably.

The Schindlers are not to be trusted right now. (I do sympathize with them, but they will say just about anything right now)

Heyo

I agree with you. I wouldn't believe the Schindlers. They seem to be very very into keeping her a live at any costs hence no proof to back up their claims. If it was true about what they've been saying he would've been restricted from his rights to Mrs. Schavio and put in jail I'm sure.

and gain sympathy. It's totally understandable! They are unable to accept her death and grasp at anything. I am sure it must be extremely difficult. However at some point they need to move on and accept all the medical opinions that have been formed over the past 15 years. Everyone should read the following article to get a clearer understanding what has transpired over the years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7290818/

I am SO sick of this bullshit.

I can't believe it infesting DU.

brain stem. It's known that the eyes and ears take in information that is processed by the brain to let us know what we see and hear. Without a brain to process this information, the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear. A loud noise doesn't need processed, the brain stem would perceive it as a threat and the body would register a protective movement..the "startle" response.
I seriously doubt whether she's bleeding from anyplace. What would cause the skin to peel and the nose and mouth to bleed?

Never mind, found the link.

All this stuff has been disproved over and over and over and over and over. :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

Do you really think this is the first time there's been a legal battle over this kind of thing?

My MIL starved to death and it was nothing as you describe. There was NO blood. Authentication should be provided if one is to post disturbing statements.

... she had inoperable cancer of the brain. She did not want to die in a hospital or a hospice.

As the cancer ravaged her system, she retreated to her bed, slept more and more of the time, and at some point stopped 'communicating' with us all together. A nurse came for daily visits, as well as a nun from mom & dad's church.

She was not eating, taking or passing fluids, nor was she on any meds for about the same time span than Ms. Schiavo has now been off the tube.

My mother did not exhibit any of the horrendous effects you describe above, and indeed, aside from having dry skin, looked completely at peace when she passed quietly, in her own bed, surrounded by her family, as she wished.

I have a very hard time believing the report on Ms. Schiavo's current condition.

It was part of her job at an assisted living center. She didn't describe any of those symptoms either, and said some of the residents spit the food back out. She said at the end they sleep and usually pass that way. It is unbelievable what people are saying and believing.

My grandmother passed a couple of years ago after suffering from alzheimer's. We had her living with an RN, but towards the end stages, VITAS, which is a hospice like program, had another nurse there all the time, and a doctor would visit frequently. They provided medication for her. She quite frankly was just not conscious to eat, and was resting peacefully. I would reckon that most who die of terminal illnesses or old age die in this manner, which is the same manner that Terri Schaivo is going in.

She is more aptly described as brain missing,not brain damaged.
The feeding tube IS considered life support.
There have been up wards of 19 judges involved.
Read the court documents at www.abstractappeal.com
or do a search on the other 200 threads discussing her case.

before you chimed in?
Just curious

If you wanted flame bait you got it.

Cool graphics however.

and historically.

Where have you been? We have been over all this 100 times.

The judge is not a Democrat, for one. He is a GOP conservative church going man, who got drummmed out of his Southern Baptist congregation over this.

This case has been litigated for almost 10 years, by 19 judges.
The reports of bleeding was not true as of 2 PM, according to Shiavo's lawyer, Felos.

You still haven't backed up a single assertion with any facts. Please do so.

On Edit: The OP is obviously a C&P job. Where did you find it, and why did you not quote your source?

What is your source for the information that you stated in your OP? Obviously, there IS a source unless you are at Mrs Schiavo's bedside in person. What is your source, and why did you not advise the rest of DU about it?

Simple questions, eh?

re the bleeding and flaking? My family and I watched as my grandfather passed away under similar circumstances, and no such things happened.

Because it's total bullshit.

"aaaaaa waaaaant (to live)" the day the feeding tube was removed.

Randall Terry, Bob Schindler, or both. (Can't remember now.)

1. "Terri is not in a coma; she is in a state that (up till now)
we've never had a legal battle over."

But she is in a state that he been legally addressed.

2. "Terri is not on life support."

To the contrary, both medically and legally she is on life support.

"Terri rather seems to be in the same position as a severely mentally
handicapped person."

Yours differs from the medical and legal definitions.

"They are starving and dehydrating a person to death. The same
system that will be "brave" enough to give her up to a slow death
won't be fucking brave enough to give her a shot that will kill her
painlessly and quickly."

This is not a painful death.


2. "They claim she laughs, and that she has cried on more than
one occassion."

She has random autonomic responses not connected in any way to external stimuli.

"My question: How in THE FUCK could they possibly know that?"

If you don't like medical science, that's fine - next time you're sick go pray about it and don't take up valuable physician time..

"How many damn times do people come out of Comas and claim that they
were totally aware of what was happening around them? How many
others claim that they dreamed, and report other life experiences?"

Terri has no cerebral cortex. She will not be telling anyone anything.


"It has been said, by both ancient and modern commentators, that a
society can be judged by how it treats its most helpless members.
When they say "Helpless", they mean both the handicapped, the ill,
and prisoners."

And the courts are protecting an important right for the helpless - the right to terminate life support.

"Yes- this is a case of Republicans vs. Democrats. That's all. There
is no judge here willing to be FUCKING OPEN MINDED and really look
at both sides of this case. The parents were hoping their appeal
would go to a Republican, knowing that such a judge would say "put
the tube in". It went to a Democrat instead, who said "take it out"."

That's bullshit. Not one judge of any political stripe has sided with the parents throughout over 19 appeals.

"There is no criteria for Terri's condition. A case like this is
unprecedented."

That's BS.

" There are clear reasonable doubts in this case. Terri and her
Family are Catholic, a church that is against Euthanasia. We have no
proof that Terri would have wanted to be cut off from nutrition and
hydration. If she DID want to be, well, she may have just lucked up.
But if she didn't we are witnessing a crime of terrible proportions."

You have no idea what Terri's feelings were.


What an appallingly uninformed rant you've posted.

"That's bullshit. Not one judge of any political stripe has sided with the parents throughout over 19 appeals"


The decision in the 11th Circuit Court Of Appeals was 11-2 with the two dissenting judges appointed by Democrats....

reversed himself when they came back.

With the slow physical disintegration of TS, Major Media is getting a major WOOOODIE!!! (With gore in the offing, and one more chance to blame "the libruls" for something they have nothing to do with.) Better start packing heat if you've got bumper stickers pronouncing your politics, unless its a W sticker.

Gyre

Those things do NOT happen.

I've worked with folks like that too - kids who have a functioning IQ in the single digits, who are unable to control their movements, eat, etc.

They have a cerebral cortex. Terri Schiavo does not.

People with profound intellectual disabilities have *some* awareness of the world around them. They can sense pain and comfort. Terri Schiavo cannot because that part of her brain that provides those sensations is gone. Not disabled, not malfunctioning - it's gone.

the parent's, husband, judges, protesters, the beastly politicos?

or terri schiavo, who never wanted this when she has no hope of recovering?

i am very outraged over sun hudson, though :argh:

peace

because the MSM has hardly mentioned this poor woman and her baby. Where was the outrage over this little boy's death.

No one spoke up on Sun's behalf. No one came forward and demanded that his breathing tubes remain in place. No, because his mother was a black woman with no insurance and Sun's life didn't even register a blip on Shrub's Culture of Life meter.

It sucks big time.

in your post.

Your mother-in-law is a nurse and she's seen doctors give excess amounts of morphine and other pain meds to patients--I'm assuming you mean that your mother actively participated in euthanization or 'mercy killings' in patients? I say 'actively participated' because in being a nurse, she is an obligate reporter of any instances of abuse of patients, whether by family, self, doctor, friends, etc.

What your mother saw happening was against the law, and if the patients died because of morphine OD, it's murder.

As much as I support euthanasia, as a nursing student, I would never participate in it or condone its use by other medical professionals. As it stands in this country, such actions are ILLEGAL, and as much as I disagree with them, I am not an angel of death and will not actively or passively take someone's life outside of what the law allows.

What your mother-in-law allowed to happen and participated in was MURDER. She and the doctors involved should be prosecuted as such. Not only did she break the law by participating in this, she broke the law by not reporting it, and by (assumingly) falsifying medical charts, which are legal documents, by not recording the exact amount of medicine given at any particular time.

Sickening.

I would hope I never have your mother-in-law as a nurse caring for me or anyone in my family. HOnestly, she shouldn't be practicing at all.

What is the difference between her and the doctors "knowing what a patient wanted" and those Nurses "angels of death" that just went in wontonly killing patients with terminal disease who THOUGHT they knew what the patient would want.

Absofuckinglutely disgusting.

I hope you know that you're an accessory to murder as well, based on the information you posted in that thread.

ON EDIT: Here is the quote that relays the OP is an accessory ot murder, in case it is edited out in the future:

"My mother in law is a nurse, and she has seen elderly people die
after their doctors secretly gave doses of morphine that they knew
were a bit much, but they also knew of the wishes of the family and
the suffering person."

enough NOT to spread more disinformation. Neither of your two premise points are accurate as my interlineated comments indicate.
<snip>
But this Shiavo situation defies most judgement. Let's look at a few
reasons why:

1. Terri is not in a coma; she is in a state that (up till now)
we've never had a legal battle over.
<snip>
My comment: NOT AT ALL ACCURATE -- PLEASE READ THE QUINLAN DECISION from the '70s for openers, that was ALSO A PVS case.
<snip>
2. Terri is not on life support. She simply gets nutrition and
hydration from a tube- which is only a hair's difference from
severely mentally handicapped people that I myself have been
employed caring for- people with IQ's in the range of 30 and 40;
they spent their lives sitting still and staring, and had to be fed
and hydrated by nurses.
<snip>
My comment: NOT AT ALL ACCURATE -- BY MEDICAL DEFINITION GIVEN HER INABILITY TO SWALLOW, THE FEEDING TUBE CONSTITUTES ARTIFICIAL LIFE SUPPORT. PERIOD.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7290818/

to get a clearer understanding of what has transpired. You just getting half the story fed by the MSM as usual.

Re: "1. There is no criteria for Terri's condition. A case like this is unprecedented. ...." I respectfully disagree.

Actually, the case of Christine Busalacchi (Missouri) is remarkably similar, except that Christine had higher functioning capability. Same thing w/ videos showing apparent responses, and ability to communicate on a limited basis. According to court records, she was able to take food by mouth but her father refused to allow that, so she was being fed by feeding tube.

Christine - like Terri - was diagnosed as in a PVS; not a coma; the only medical device keeping her alive was a feeding tube - inserted at her father's insistence, NOT because she couldn't take food/water orally.

After a long court battle, her father won, her tube was removed, and she died in March of 1993, if I recall correctly.

to think this case is unprecedented is very, very, very unlikely.

between "life support" (ventilator, etc.) and feeding tube.

And there are NOT 1000s of cases a day, week, year or decade that a feeding tube is removed.

There ARE probably 100s of cases a year where the decision is made NOT to insert a feeding tube (somewho, hospital ethics committees see a moral distinction b/w not starting and then stopping, once started).

But - I've seen NO evidence (and have seen a lot of evidence to the contrary) to indicate that the removal of feeding tubes is common.

It's just not unprecedented.

And - if this sounds like splitting hairs -- it is -- but such "splits" really matter, imho.

in which the Illinois Supreme Court upheld a guardian's request that feeding tube be removed from a 26-year old man who had suffered a stroke resulting in severe brain damage (but not coma, and not PVS).

I note this NOT to support EITHER of these cases, but to bring some facts in -- this is NOT an unprecedented case. There are a dozen or so similar cases. They just weren't, apparently, so politically useful, and cable news wasn't around, so there wasn't this obsession.

The only new thing is the circus.

daily. There is no difference between the need for oxygen or the need for nutrition. Both are needed to sustain life. Yet, one plug is okay to pull and the other is not. Odd.

from shame.

to decide whether or not she should live or die."

:eyes:

who felt Terri Schiavo should be kept alive and who quoted Bush in support of that idea. You don't make a good case when you start out spouting the enemy's pseudo-ideas.

I disagree with one of your core arguments. You say she's "not on life support". I say she IS on life support because she can't feed or care for herself. Without the feeding tube, she dies. That's no different from the most elaborate sorts of life support.

And mind you, I'm not saying people who can't feed themselves who ARE conscious should all die. I'm just saying this is a major flaw in your facts.

christ on crucifix. i am not believing. i am seeing the fundies to tell the story of christ on a cross from pictures. i think this is about as irresponsible and disgusting as they have gotten

this is horrible that not only would you feed this to people to get them to feel guilt with terri's experience but you would jesus in such a way

shame shame

nt

Yes- this is a case of Republicans vs. Democrats. That's all. There
is no judge here willing to be FUCKING OPEN MINDED and really look
at both sides of this case. The parents were hoping their appeal
would go to a Republican, knowing that such a judge would say "put
the tube in". It went to a Democrat instead, who said "take it out".


Hasn't every Court, regardless of Party affiliation or appointment, decided that Terri's wishes are being carried out?

nt

just upholds the law, which isn't what they want.

She started refusing food, water and medication on a Saturday and passed away Thursday morning. When I last saw her on Wednesday evening, her skin looked loose on her body (she was quite old nad had lost a lot of weight prior to her rather sudden decline) and she was very pale. The medical staff was keeping her lips moist with some sort of goo (it looked a bit thicker than Vasoline, but not so thick as Carmex) and she did not appear to be in any pain, she wasn't bleeding anywhere I could see.

I've had the misfortune of seing several relatives pass away after they stopped taking food, none had bleeding or cracked lips.

Somhow I suspect her care providers know to keep her lips hydrated, just as they've turned her regularly, changed her and done the rest of her care to her guardian and the court's satisfaction.

It did look similar to Vaseline. They also used eye drops in her eyes.

I want sources before Ill belive that she is bleeding......we all know she is flaking.

see this line:

My mother in law is a nurse, and she has seen elderly people die
after their doctors secretly gave doses of morphine that they knew
were a bit much, but they also knew of the wishes of the family and
the suffering person.

I posted this above, but want people to truly understand what your mother-in-law did.

As a nurse, she is an obligate reporter of abuse and misconduct. If it's a family member, a friend, relative, other health care professional--ANYONE who is suspected of abusing a patient is to be reported by any health care professional who observes or even THINKS abuse is occuring.

What your mother in law did was not only ACTIVELY participate in the murder of patients (Which is against the law seeing as our country has no laws allowing euthanasia or mercy killings), she also broke the law by:

1) not reporting the doctors who administered the morphine
2) Since the morphine was administered 'secretly', she falsified medical records (which are legal documents) by not including the accurate amount of medicine given and when
3) Allowed a falsified 'cause of death' to be reported on the death certificate.

Your knowing this and not reporting your mother in law for the active murder of patient(s) makes you an accessory to her crime as well.

I hope your mother-in-law has her nursing license revoked at the least and spends time in jail at the most.

As much as I agree with euthanasia, it is illegal in our country.

I see no difference between her actions and the other convicted 'angel of death' nurses who killed hundreds of patients in terminal states because 'that's what the patient wanted'.

Sickening fucking abuse of power.

a huge overdose of morphine, but a slightly high dose that will have the effect of suppressing respiration (as well as pain relief) and therefore make the *inevitable* end come a little more quickly and lessen the patient's suffering. I'm talking terminal patients (cancer, etc) who are in the process of dying and are in the last day or so of life. This is not murder.

According to the poster
My mother in law is a nurse, and she has seen elderly people die
after their doctors secretly gave doses of morphine that they knew
were a bit much, but they also knew of the wishes of the family and
the suffering person.

You can't 'secretly' give doses of morphine or any drug. Anything that is administered to the patient must be listed on the patient's chart. If it's done 'secretly', then that means it wasn't listed on teh chart (hence the 'secret' part). If it wasn't listed on the chart, then that is a crime. If an incorrect amount was knowingly listed on the chart, that is a crime.

And having spoken to several nurse administrators, doctors, nurses, hospice nurses and nursing instructors, ANYTHING that is done pharmacologically to hasten death (and not to just ease pain) is against the law, and is considered murder.

Hospice nurse I know have even said that they WISHED they could give increased doses of morphine but know that if they did, they'd be committing murder, as much as they would see it as helping to ease someone's suffering, the state would see it as murder and they would be prosecuted as much.

"The Law Relationg To Nursing Care And Regulations Of Health Professions- Uniform Diciplinary Act October 2002"

"WAC 246-840-730 Mandatory Reporting:

Mandatory reporting assists the nursing care quality assurance commision in protecting the public helath and safety through the discovery of unsafe or substandard nursing practice or conduct.These rules are intended to define the information that is to be rported and the obligation of nurses and others to report....

Who must make reports and what must be reported to the nursing commission?

(1) any person, including, but not limited to, registered nurses, practical nurses, advanced registered nurse pratitioners, health care facilities and governmental agencies shall always report the following
(b) Information regarding a conviction, determination, or finding, including employer-based diciplinary action, that a nurse has committed an act that would constitute professional conduct as defined in RCW 18.130.180, including violations of chapter 246-80 WAC including but not limited to:
(iii) Conduct which reasonably appears to be a contributing factor to the death of a patient
(iv) Conduct which reasonably appears to be a contributing factor to the harm of a patient which requires medical intervention
(v) Conduct which reasonably appears to violate accepted standards of nursing practice and reasonably appears to create a risk of physical and/or emotional harm to a patient


RCW 18.130.180 Unprofessional Conduct

THe following conduct, acts, or conditions constitute unprofessional conduct for any license holder or applicant under the jurisdiction of this chapter.

(1)The commission of any act involving moral turptitude, dishonesty, or corruption relating to the practice of the person's profession, whether the act constitutes a crime or not. If the act constitutes a crime, conviction and criminal proceeding is not a condition precedent to diciplnary action.....

(4) Incopetence, negligence, or malpractice wich results in injury to a patient or which creats an unreasonable risk that a patient may be harmed. The use of nontraditional treatment by itself shall not constitute unprofessional conduct, provided that it does not result in injury to a patient or create an unreasonable risk that a patient may be harmed

This is a more sophisticated issue than many folks realize.

It is not about "fundies" or right wingers or liberals or any of that.

If it were about political parties, then both Dems and Reps would be guilty.

A few years ago, the Florida legislature republicans made it legal to withdraw a person's feeding tube.

IN other words, made it legal to starve a person to death.

There are strong ties between the political players here with the for profit Hospice organization, some insurance companies, the hospital and even the sheriff's dept of Pinellas County.

This is all about money.

Do I trust Michael Schiavo?
As much as I trust Scott Peterson.

Did Terri Schiavo state her wishes? Not to any blood relatives.

Are Terri's blood relatives crazy?
If I am to expect that 4 people are acting nuts in unison, that would mean that her father, mother, brother and sister are all crazy.

Does it make me wonder that Michael Schiavo did not spend Terri's 750,000 rehab settlement for Terri's rehab?

What is the difference between Michael Schiavo and Scott Peterson?

Not all liberals see this as Dem verses Rep, it is a much larger picture, about money. Life is cheap, and the media is spinning this as a "living will" type of thing, which is really a "dying will".

Yes this country is extremely bigotted towards disabled people and would rather put them out of their "misery" than have to look at them. If a "fox tv" extreme makeover can't fix you, then you don't get to live.

Our country is extremely backward in how it treats the weak, poor, sick, and downtrodden. Our access to health care is an insult to the description of "world power".

It takes a great deal of discernment to see beyond the media spin, the dems vs reps game, and the real point - to make it legal to get rid of disabled more easily.

Terri Schiavo is the test case.

And we don't need you deciding we need to be kept alive in a zombie state.

Stop making it about the disabled. It isn't. There isn't a DU'er who would support offing a disabled person. This woman's condition is MORE irreversible than a coma.

How would you people like it if I called you the LOVE TO MAKE OTHERS SUFFER Crowd?

Cool it with the hyperbole.

I am NOT GOING TO FEEL GUILTY for treating this woman's stated wishes as though she meant it.

Her family had an issue with the money and thought they were entitled to something out of the malpractice case. It's right there in the records.

They THEN challenge the judge's decision TWO DOZEN TIMES and then have the NERVE to say that Michael Schiavo spent ALL THE MONEY on lawyers? Give me a fucking break.

You're right there are FAR reaching ramifications of this case. EVERY PERSON WHO HONORS their family's wishes NOT TO BE KEPT ALIVE by artificial means should FEAR being accused of murder.

what it has to do with is a woman whose diagnosis is Permanent Vegetative State and is irreversable, and that diagnosis has been confirmed by at least five doctors who examined her over the years.

She has no brain left that would identify her as capable of participating in life except for the part of her most primitive brain that is responsible for autonomic nervous system functions--ie breathing and heartbeat, blinking--she is not there, not alive by all definitions of what it is to be alive--ergo the "vegetative" state.

She is NOT disabled in the sense that a blind person, or one with cerebral palsy or a paraplegic is considered disabled. She is in a permanent vegetative state and that is the diagnosis.

Stop with the misleading language. IT does nothing to promote your argument and makes it all the more silly.

She is, to be blunt, already dead, except that means have been taken to keep the body alive without the brain function that would define us all as participants in life.

and I don't know where you get it from--some Aesop's fable perhaps

I have been a nurse for thirty five years--with a wide variety of experience in all fields and in all those years, having tended to hundreds who were in their last days, who were unable to eat or take fluids, never ever did I see one, not one, person ever have a bleeding tongue or bleeding eyes or their skin and flesh falling off.


You have read or seen too many horror films.

I am confident that the nurses in the hospice are taking excellent care of their patient.

it's one of you crazed people. Oh I got it, Mr. Diagnosis by Long Distance.

What are you doing here Mr. Frist?

then you should know that it is far more in the spirit of Buddha to let nature take its course, and allow her to leave this existence and proceed to her next incarnation--instead of keeping her trapped here and now. This core belief of Buddhism is a lot more applicable to the situation than a single parable about crime and punishment.

And if you think the "side of life" isn't the one that's prejudiced, playing this out for politics and comprise a large part of the idiot blindness of society, well, that's a damn shame.

And it looks like there is such serious attachment in this case, the parents can't even let Terri's body go when her mind is totally gone. How sad.

Does that count?

obviously. I think many of you want to jump on my point of view, because you think I'm a Republican or something. Facing the fact that we don't really know what she is feeling, except for the opinions of doctors, would mean we would all have to face up to a participating in a horrible miscarriage of justice. That makes some people a little hot under the collar, as evidenced by most of the replies.

Medical science has advanced far enough to determine that.

I understand that you are very disturbed and concerned for Terry Schiavo's situation.

I'm curious about a couple of things that you wrote.

First, how do you know this -
"Well, Terri Schiavo's eyes and tongue are now bleeding, and her
flesh is flaking off. Nine days without food or water will do that
to a person."
I don't have tv news on but I haven't seen any late-breaking news articles that state this, so I'm wondering how you know it.

Second,
"2. Terri is not on life support. She simply gets nutrition and
hydration from a tube- "
The medical profession considers tube-feeding to be a life-support measure.

Third,
""When there is reasonable doubt, or unanswered questions, we as a
society will choose to err on the side of Life.""
This is a very high-minded concept, however it is at odds with our current laws. Our current legal system in Florida is based on the provision that if an incapacitated person has no written instructions and the person who has the legal representation (in this case her husband) can prove her wishes to the court (which the husband has proved in multiple court cases), those wishes prevail. Michael Schiavo has proven over and over again that this is Terry's wishes.

Fourth,
"These judges are deciding on party lines, "
This is absolutely untrue. The 11th Circuit court has more republican-appointed judges than democrat-appointed and their decisions have been near-unanimous. I'm not sure of the make-up of the Florida Supreme Court which also has decided in the husband's favor.


Terry Schiavo is being allowed to die as nature would have it. She is not being murdered or killed.


I know we have different opinions about these matters but I want you to know that I am in sympathy with you and everyone who is so upset with this case. It's very difficult, and made even more difficult by the media circus accompanying it.

I have watched 4 people die this way and THAT never happened to a one of them! The truth can be found in ANY Hospice protocol link but there is a specific one to the hospice Terri is at posted in an earlier DU thread!

from here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3360988

http://www.thehospice.org/foodandfluidsEOL.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7290818 /

to get a clearer understanding of what has transpired. You just getting half the story fed by the MSM as usual.

This hospice has 4 different types of lawsuits against it right now, and I would not be surprised to see it grow. This reflects poorly on the people in charge of Suncoast Hospice.
It is their duty to see to it that it is run properly and fulfills it missions to care the terminally ill, provide comfort and dignity. The officials involved in this case seem to all have ties to the Suncoast Hospice Board of Directors.

This matters because, the Suncoast Hospice already has 4 lawsuits against it now

1. 2/25/03 Class action for funneling non-profit donations to a for-profit software division http://www.hospicepatients.org/Hosp-FL-Suncoast-Cmplnt.html

2. 5/01/03 Class action by patients and family Filed Breach of Confidentiality
http://www.hospicepatients.org/Hosp-FL-Suncoast-entrypage.html"#SecondClassActionSuit

3. 5/27/03 Filed Against Ron Pereira For Sexual harassment And Against the Hospice For Covering-up Sexual- Harassment http://www.hospicepatients.org/FASHNER-Complaint-RE-Pereira-and-Bell-Kistler-Hospice-Cover-up-Sexual-Harassment.html

4. 6/11/03 Former Employee Julie Wells Files Whistleblower Suit
Against Hospice
"http://www.hospicepatients.org/julie-wells-whistleblower-suit.html"

The Hospice of Suncoast is already in hot water for receiving improper Medicare payments. See this link from the Dept of Health and Human services: Department of Health and Human Services
Office of Inspector General -- AUDIT

"Review of Hospice Eligibility at Hospice of Florida Suncoast, Inc.," (A-04-95-02111)
August 19, 1996 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
This final audit report points out that Suncoast, Inc., a home health agency, received improper Medicare payments totaling $8.9 million for 176 ineligible beneficiaries. Another $5.9 million was paid to Suncoast for 118 beneficiaries for whom we were unable to determine whether a terminal illness existed at the time of admission to the hospice.

These problems occurred because hospice physicians made inaccurate prognoses of life expectancy based on the medical evidence in the patients' files or because the evidence was not sufficient to determine that the beneficiary was terminally ill.

In addition to financial adjustments, we recommended that the intermediary coordinate with the Health Care Financing Administration (HCFA) in providing training to hospice providers and physicians on eligibility requirements for hospice beneficiaries, and conduct periodic reviews of hospice claims to ensure the hospice is obtaining sufficient medical information to make valid eligibility determinations.

The intermediary generally agreed with our recommendations and stated it is committed to working closely with HCFA to strengthen program procedures and controls to ensure proper payment of hospice claims.
http://oig.hhs.gov/oas/reports/region4/49502111.htm.

this site earlier or seen her brain scan. Me thinks you have been watching too much TV. You also sound very angry and not at all knowledgeable or rational...very much like the Shindler's.

First of all, the judge you speak about is a conservative Republican, but you were correct that Clinton appointed him.

Secondly, this case has been heard by 19 judges in 6 courts - all making the same decision based on the facts that were presented.

The sad part of this case is that it's being used as yet another highly explosive issue by a president who could only survive in office by creating division between parties. If everyone focused on his job performance as closely as they focus on the wag-the-dog bait (Scott Peterson, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson's breast, & now Terri Schiavo), our country would be much better off.

I wish the wackos with the crosses & rosary beads holding vigil would put the same thought & passion into finding out exactly what kind of men the Bushes are.

....on Good Friday. That's what I thought when I heard that Terri was bleeding. The religious right will stop at nothing when it comes to evangelical theatre.

and the tens of thousands of Iraqis. You've feel better.

anything. This has been determined over and over.

RICHARD, L PEARSE, JR - FLORIDA ATTORNEY AT LAW, GUARDIAN AD LITEM FOR TERRI SCHIAVO - AT ONE POINT IN THIS LITIGATION .In June 1998, soon after Michael asked the court for permission to remove Terri's feeding tube, the court appointed Richard L. Pearse, Jr. Attorney at Law as Terri's Guardian Ad Litem (GAL). Pearse's job was to investigate the facts of Terri's case and represent her interests in court. He issued a 10-page report in Dec. 1998 on his finding, and also in January 2000 testified on his findings before Judge Greer. In his report, Pearse said Michael Schiavo was not a credible witness to his wife's end-of-life wishes because he waited years before coming forward with the claim that she wanted to die. Pearse also noted that Michael Schiavo would benefit financially from her death and be able to "move on with his life" in Mr Schiavo's words.

That Michael Schiavo's attitude and actions changed as soon as the money from the malpractice suit was in the bank (Feb. 1993) was not lost in Pearse's Expert Court Appointed Review. - (News Report Comment)

Per Attorney Pearse - "From that point forward, the ward's husband has isolated the ward from her parents, has on at least one occasion refused to consent for the ward to be treated for a urinary tract infection (in the hopes that she would die), and, ultimately, four years later, has filed the instant petition for the withdrawal of life support on the basis of evidence apparently known only to him which could have been asserted at any time during the ward's illness," he said.

Attorney Pearse said he was "troubled by the fact that Michael waited until 1998 to petition to remove the feeding tube, even though he claims to have known her wishes all along, and that he waited until he won a malpractice suit based on a professed desire to take care of her into old age".

Pearse continued: As her husband, Michael would inherit what is left of her malpractice award, originally $700,000, which is held in a trust fund administered by the court. Accounting of the fund is sealed. BUT MICHAEL'S LAWYER, GEORGE FELOS, SAID MOST OF IT HAS BEEN SPENT ON LEGAL FEES ASSOCIATED WITH THE CUSTODY DISPUTE

Pearse was dismissed as the guardian months later after Felos accused him of bias. Pearse asked the judge on the case at the time to either expand his authority as guardian to represent Terri Schiavo in upcoming hearings or dismiss him as guardian, the judge chose the later option."Affidavit of Richard Pearse, Guardian ad Litem, dated 12/29/98:
http://host85.ipowerweb.com/~friendso/guardian.pdf

You should stop spreading bullshit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
"In response to Mr. Pearse’s report, Michael Schiavo filed a Suggestion of Bias against Mr. Pearse. This document notes that Mr. Pearse failed to mention in his report that Michael Schiavo had earlier, formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interest in the guardianship estate. The criticism continues to note that Mr. Pearse’s concern about abuse of inheritance potential was directly solely at Michael, not at the Schindlers in the event they might become the heirs and also choose to terminate artificial life support. Further, significant chronological deficits and factual errors are noted, detracting from and prejudicing the objective credibility of Mr. Pearse’s report.

The Suggestion of Bias challenges premises and findings of Mr. Pearse, establishing a well pleaded case for bias.

In February of 1999, Mr. Pearse tendered his petition for additional authority or discharge. He was discharged in June of 1999 and no new Guardian Ad Litem was named."

It is all a crooked money trail. Don't be fooled by claims of politics etc, it is underneath that veil.

Consider this timeline:

May 1997 - Deborah Bushnell send a leter to Judge Shames (he was before Judge Greer) saying that the Schindlers should be involved in Terri's care during her final days (since Michael intends to move Terri to hospice and remove her feeding tube).

Aug. 1997 - Felos sends a letter to the Schindler's notifying them of pending action to remove Terri's feeding tube.

May 1998 - George Felos is hired and files a petition in Court to remove Terri's feeding tube.

April 6, 1999 - House Bill 2131 was introduced in the legislature by the Florida Elder Affairs & Long-Term Care Committee to amend Section 765 (Civil Rights) of the Florida Statutes. two weeks later, the legislature Committee on Judiciary recommmended that House Bill 2131 should also change the Section 765.101 legal definition of life prolonging procedures to add: "INCLUDING ARTIFICIALLY PROVIDED SUSTENENCE AND HYDRATION, WHICH SUSTAINS, RESTORES, OR SUPPLANTS A SPONTANEOUS VITAL FUNCTION".

Oct 1, 1999 - Senate Bill 2228 (formerly HB2131) becomes law changing Section 765.101 of the Florida Statutes to include the above.

Jan 24, 2000 - Trial begins to decided whether to remove Terri's feeding tube.

Feb 11, 2000 - Judge Greer orders that Terri's feeding tube can be removed.

If you followed the timeline, Felos filed a petition to remove Terri's feeding tube BEFORE the law was changed, and the trial began AFTER the law was changed (and Greer approved removal of the tube).

Why is that? Did the Florida legislature knowingly or unknowingly pass a law that would apply specifically to Terri? I don't think there were any other hotly contested "right to die" cases at that time. (The cases of Cruzan, Bludworth, and Browning were decided years before). I wonder who paid-off or influenced who to get the law changed?

And here's some very interesting reading that might help answer that question (link below). Scroll down about half-way to "They make it all possible". They make it all possible:

Congressman Bilirakis congressman for many years. Now his son Gus Michael Bilirakis serves on the Suncoast Hospice Board of Directors.

There are actually three boards because there are profits and non-profits.

The salaries at the top are sky high."

Barbara Sheehan Todd also serves on the Hospice Board. She was a County Commissioner the same time (1980-98) Judge Greer was a Pinellas county commissioner from 1984-92.

Judge Greer was a zoning lawyer.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/042801/TampaBay/Judge_George_Greer.shtml

Atty George Felos sat on the Hospice Board Felos has been paid approximately $550,000.00 Judge Greer used to be on Hospice's Board too (ED: Chairman of the Board)

Martha Lenderman - outgoing chairman of hospice, chair for 2 years, is sister of Judge John Lenderman (Family Law Division with Judge Greer)

Richard M Jerger, Jr (was a president of Pinellas Independent Agents, Inc in 1990-1991) is a holder in the PHILADELPHIA CONSOLIDATED HOLDING CORP which bought out Jerger and Sons. insured mobile homes

Raymond Blacklidge is a registered lobbyist in the Florida Legislature who works for the Jerger Company. Blacklidge is a Business Partner to Richard Jerger, who is an Insurance Executive selling mobile home insurance in the state of Florida. Jerger somehow became the Business Partner to Michael Schiavo.

Jodi Centonze is Michael Schiavo's domestic partner and now mother of his 2 children.

http://pao.co.pinellas.fl.us/htbin/cgi-scr3?o=1&a=1&b=1&r=&s=1&u=0&p=29+28+16+61655+000+0390267%2C302337%2C661&name=View

Barry G. Wilkinson registered agent for Jerger Ins.

Judge Greer and Robert Wharrie (hospice) are on the same dicussion PANEL!! Almost at the bottom of the page

http://www.clwbar.org/resipsa/december-january02/article462.html .

The Mcconihay Greer Connection Together on the board of "Suncoast Christian Camps Inc"... with GREER as registered agent.. The Damonte -Mcconihey connection

The Damonte - Mcconihay corp is called "Approved Management Corporation"...

Jonathan Damonte -lawyer for the Mobile home association, is connected to Greer through a business partner, Stephen McConihey

2nd Felon Gets 2nd Chance at Hospice

A payroll worker is the second employee the hospice hired in recent years despite a criminal record.

-After pleading guilty to felony grand theft in 2001 and being sentenced to five years of probation, (she used company credit card to use for work purchases to charge $7,791 for personal items before getting caught.) Karen Langan was looking for a new job.

-Another employee, Susan A. Wynn, pleaded guilty in Georgia to embezzlement in 1996 after admitting that she stole $370,000 from a public agency. Wynn, who served prison time and is on probation, works as an administrative assistant to the hospice's vice president of finance.

Link:St Petersburg Times Online

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/26/Northpinellas/
2nd_felon_gets_2nd_ch.shtml

Based on his testimony promising rehabilitation services for Terri, in part, the malpractice jury awarded Mr. Schiavo $1,200,000.00, of which approximately $700,000.00 was placed in a trust fund for Terri's support and maintenance.

Terri has not been certified as "Terminally ill" as required by federal regulations for the use of federal funds for hospice care, yet has resided at Hopsice Woodside since March or April, 2000.

I'm sure that's an accident.

There must be lots of good info at that site though.

wrong on so many levels. I guess all I have to say is this. These people who speak of culture of life, where are their protests concerning this elective war we are in? Where are their protests on "rendition" and torture? Where the HELL are they? Culture of life my ass.

This point keeps getting made over and over again. I will make another go of it. The bulk of her brain is gone. The area of her brain that creates her identity is destroyed. She is not handicapped. She is not disabled. She is gone.

A person is not a body. A person is not a limb. A person is not a heart. A person is not a set of lungs.

We can survive the loss of most of our body. We can survive the removal and replacement of our heart. It is the brain that determines whether we are sentient or not. It alone is tied to our survival.

It is our societies rejection of euthenasia that has created this situation where we cannot bring an end to the bodies continued shadow of life. Instead we have to unplug her from the means our technology used to prolong this situation and watch her body run itself into the ground. If there were a person present in her body it might be cruel. But there is no one present in there to be cruel to. Her mind is not experiencing the bodies demise. Her mind is gone.

boots so I can clean up this big pile of manure.

a medical secretary in a nursing home where a very similar situation occurred. The wife was in a PVS after a car accident. She also would make noises and seem to follow people and things with her eyes . The doctors stated that it was purely relexive, involuntary actions, which I believe to be the case. The husband, after 6 years and many, many tests stating that she wouldn't get any better wanted the feeding tube pulled. The mother and father fought the decision. There was a court decision that stated the tube should be pulled. There was not such a long, protracted court battle as this though.

Anyway, once the tube was pulled she lasted about a week. She exhibited NONE of the symptoms that you've stated. The doctors, nurses and nursing assistants were marvelous in taking care of her so that her lips were not all dried out. She was quite peaceful. As far as her flesh flaking off, you make it sound like her skin is falling off.

This woman was also my neighbor when I was a child; someone I played with everyday. It was hard watching all of this transpire on a daily basis but I truly believed that she would be better off.

Just my 2 cents and to show you that this case is not as unique as the right wing wackos would have you believe.

That's a lie propogated by the Schwindlers.

I know too, life will find a way, even among ourselves,and its comforting to hear another voice it. peace.

That's so uplifting, in addition to being hannity-esque.

:crazy:

When you're ready to talk about civil rights come back.

But life may find a way but a mind cannot necissarily find its way. Life is not necissarily a good thing or a bad thing. When life gives rise to a loved one its a good thing. When life is cancer it is a bad thing. Cancer is just life finding a way. We as sentient beings are not just life. We are a particular balance of life that can be disrupted and destroyed.

but life inevitably ends in death.

The sequence is that we are born, we live, and we die.

Life does not and cannot "find a way" because life is not a being with a goal and a purpose or a mythical force fighting through it's slings and arrows to arrive triumphant in a one hundred year old person who is fading away in the quite natural sequence of events.

Mainly for the claim about the bleeding, but I would also like to know where this came from, or did you write it?

I see a few other posters have requested the same.

There cannot be meaningful discussion without knowing your sources.

Thanks!

Or turn you into a revenue source. If we cannot depend on the medical community not to act in venal economic manner, then we must take it into our hands and demand under not circumstances are they to use extraordinary means to revive or extend one moment your life.

Remember medicine is a big business and most of the medical community operate as free market agents with an eye to what is best for them, not what is best for their patients.

Unless you want to put your loved ones in this sort of position, just end it.

and told everyone, well she'll probably come around in awhile. Bet your ass they did and they did it for money.

And PVS can't be diagnosed immediately anyway.

Lastly, at the time she wasn't missing her cerebral cortex.

will not turn you into a cash cow experiment? Beem there, seen that with my mother.......F*** the medical community...they are greedy bastards,one and all.

But all of this should require the permission of next of kin anyway - as it generally does.

I have spent a half a lifetime working in health care policy making. I speak with a good background in what the medical community is all about.

You might want to rethink careers.

and working to bring fraud charges against anyone of them that fall within my attention.....

Yes, when one part of the motor cortex is damage, it's function can be taken over by and adjacent part of motor cortex.

This does not mean you can grow a new cortex de novo from your brain stem, or that the brain stem can take over cortical function. The brain stem and the cortex are organized in completely different manners, have neuronal sub areas that are specialized for completely different things, express neurotransmitter receptors in different manners, etc. To suggest that one could somehow transform into the other because of neurological damage is like suggesting that the liver can provide a new pancreas since the liver itself can regenerate and they are both GI organs.

The idea that the cerebral cortex is responsible for consciousness comes from both patient studies and animal experimentation. There is no reason to doubt it.

If one instead wants to argue that consciousness comes from some spiritual faculty, than the physical components necessary for Mrs. Shiavo to interact with the physical world are destroyed.

is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone here is now dumber for having read it."

EYES and TONGUE are bleeding and her FLESH is flaking off. I've seen people die after having a feeding tube removed. I've NEVER witnessed anything like that and I was there until the very end.

Geez. Emotionalism at its finest.

said it on Fox News.

http://www.lifenews.com/bio842e.html

Dumptruck of salt, and all that...

How lovely of them. :puke:

as her "estranged husband" by the article reporter.

I am tired of the fact that people have to bring politics into this.

Nat Hentoff on Terri Schiavo

Aside from the many disablity activists who are fighting for her life (ignored often by the media), there is another person who breaks the stereotypical mold even more: the Jewish, liberal, atheist, Village Voice author, and pro-lifer Nat Hentoff. He has written some excellent stuff on Terri Schiavo. I recommend the following articles:

Was Terri Schiavo Beaten in 1990?
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0347,hentoff,48738,6.html

It's Not Only About Terri Schiavo
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0348,hentoff,48917,6.html

The Culture of Death
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0349,hentoff,49123,6.html

A Woman's Life Vs. An Inept Press
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0346,hentoff,48502,6.html

About the only good I can say is that I dig your U2 sig.

Is the media circus, the amount of litigation this has been through, Congress's unconstitutional intervention and the Republican's grandstanding.

Sadly, that's it.

I contend that any man-made device that is keeping you alive, that without you would otherwise die, is indeed life support.

You are lecturing about compassion? You argue this case like every neocon does, which is......toss out the expert opinions of highly trained doctors in the field except, of course, the very few who agree with you who always seem to have a police record or lie about a Nobel nomination or something.
Once that's accomplished you go on to your own diagnosis, which is that she is merely "severly handicapped".
The experts say she cannot sense either hunger or thirst.....that part of her brain is gone. But you say she is "starving" and "dying of thirst".
But, everything else aside, I'm wondering. In your living will, what are you going to direct people around you to do at all costs just to keep your heart pumping and lungs working?

"Whatever proportions these crimes assumed, it became evident to all who investigated them that they had started from small beginnings. The beginnings at first were merely a subtle shift in emphasis in basic attitude, basic in the euthanasia movement, that there is such a thing as life not worthy to be lived. This attitude in its early stages concerned itself merely with the severely and chronically sick. Gradually the sphere of those to be included in this category was enlarged to encompass the socially unproductive, the ideologically unwanted, the racially unwanted, and finally all non-Germans. But it is important to realize that the infinitely small wedged-in lever from hich this entire trend of mind received its impetus was the attitude toward the nonrehabilitatable sick."
--Dr. Leo Alexander
Expert Advisor to the Nuremberg Tribunal
July 14, 1949 < 6 >

Let's see, where have I heard that accusation just recently...

Nazis deciding who should live and individuals making choices about their own life?

This is not about someone else's assertion that another's life is "not worthy to be lived." This is about an individual's statement that she would not want extraordinary means taken to prologue her life past a certain point, and a tube directly into her stomach is extraordinary means. If you are not convinced by the people who swore these were her wishes, the Florida courts were, and it is their job to rule on such matters when family members cannot reach an agreement themselves.

This post is why Godwin's Rule came into being.

My apologies to those members who have posted personal experiences in this thread, but I am locking it. It seems, in the whole, to be inflammatory.

Thanks for your consideration.

DU Mod