Has the Schiavo thing caused you to think differently about some

DUers? There are some people here with whom I would disagree on nearly everything, but am in complete agreement with on the Schiavo issue.

There are people here who I really like and respect, and they believe the exact opposite of me on this. Folks who I probably won't look at the same way again, to tell the truth.

There are some folks that I simply can't believe have come down on the side of the issue they've come down on, regardless of which side they're on.

Is anyone else feeling the same way? :shrug:

furter cemented my belief that right wing conservatism is nothing more than narcissistic, egotistical, opportunism at its best.

of choice as you'd find on Free Republic.

But in some ways it's not a shock - I've always known a few "liberals" who really want control as much as any Freeper. Fortunately they are the minority.

I was also reminded that hating men doesn't really make you a feminist.

Hey mondo joe - How come I don't remember seeing you prior to the Schiavo issue? Did you have a different name before?

this case really got me going.

exactly. In my conversation with my mother ( who I was under the impression was a Bush hater) last night, what was painfully obvious to me as she called Michael Shiavo a wife beater and cheater is that she hates men. She fell on the opposite side of me with the Elian thing too. I was for the father's rights, she thought that father was scum.

sigh.

the point is, it doesn't matter.

the state she is in is the state she is in.

I want to believe that liberals are more sophisticated than to buy into the belief that there are only two sides to any story, good and evil or black and white.

There are as many stories as their are people telling them. The only non-family witness that I give any credence to is the guardian as litem, because he was appointed by the courts to do just what he has done. I had a friend who was a g. a. l. so I know a little bit about what they are and what they do, and it's a labor of love, believe me...they don't get paid, they have to go through a training program and they devote all this personal time to their cases out of the goodness of their heart.

I am really grateful their is a guardian in this case, it saves my sanity to listen to him, because he has absolutely nothing to gain either way and never did have. As far as the family and Michael goes, none of us really know. Only Terri knows the truth.

and I will never again have the same level of respect for those DUers because of it.

some exhibit, that is amazing to me. It's one thing to have reservations about taking Terri off of the feeding tube, but to base those on such lies and misinformation is scary, coming from people who are supposed to be liberals.

in order to shore up a pretty shaky theory.

it's my own mother who I am now completely convinced doesn't know me at all, and I don't know her. Hard thing to accept at the age of 42. I almost wish it was just a stranger on a message board.

The case was presented that Terri Shiavo would not want to be in this condition.

The case has been tried.

The ruling was that Terri shiavo did indeed expres her wishes that she would not want to be kept alive via artificial means under these conditions. A feeding tube is artificial life support, ergo, her wish was that it be pulled.

The case has been retried.

The case has been re-retried.

The case has been re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The case has been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retried.

The verdict has never changed throught all of that adjudication and this case has been adjudicated more than any other case of its kind.

That's dead on. (No pun intended.)

are diminishing even in the most private of circumstance. Free spirits deserve free choice.

The main issue is that Terri herself did not want to live this way. That was all that mattered. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that someone may want to keep me in that condition, so I'm making out a Living Will and naming someone besides my family to make medical decisions if I'm incapacitated.

A lot of people I know are getting their affairs in order because of this case. This shows me that they are freaked out by the freak show and wouldn't want their body to be the center of such a spectacle.

of posts and see where posters are coming from, and simply choose to disagree with some and agree with others, but we are from the same common ground and I am not going to let this affect my camaraderie here. I like this place period! Like everything it stands for and has to offer period. DUrs are my private outlet and connection with other than friends and family so not going to let bushitler and cronies diminish their quality in any form or fashion.

the BS that the Faux and CNNs are putting forth to make a point, I have to fight SO hard to avoid going ballistic (e.g., the stories about the husband beating her and supposedly causing the condition, the current tales of her eyes and tongue bleeding, etc, etc).

How can people who seem to work hard to learn the facts on political issues, fall into the pattern of believing pure propaganda from the so-called MSM on this?

Difference of opinion I don't mind.

The reliance on known falsehood, smears and made up shit is something else.

in the mind of some....

I can't even shrug on this one, it makes me really :mad:

especially when Bush supports something, we ought to KNOW right away there's a devil in the details.

for me it's flat disappointment.

I have my pet peeve with certain folks here on PETA because they repeat the most ridiculous far fetched wingnut talking points about them, and don't seem to know they are spewing wilding innaccurate propaganda.

With this, though, when you hear DUers repeating things, like you said, that the cable news clones are spouting every 5 minutes, without even questioning it, it's crazy.

I'm not convinced Michael was a good guy in the marriage, they both seem like they were pretty young stupid and fucked up. But those issues are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I am always surprised to find people I had been in agreement
with on one issue at completely opposite sides of some other
issue.

This is why politics must be based on coalitions around issues.

Someone who is your "enemy" on one issue might be your friend
on the next.

This is often derided as sell out pragmatism but it seems
to be the only way to get more than one person to meet your
standards, yourself.

But, sweet Jesus, I hope I never rely on disproven bullshit to make my points. I hope I always remain open to facts.

And, we have DUers who stick to a rigid ideology over the rights of the individual. In the words of the great philosopher, Daryl Hall - I can't go for that.
No. Can. Do.

for alot of people so I don't get really upset. I do get upset with certain religious political forces at work in this country though. I also think calling the courts murderers for following the law on this repugnant though and those that use it are guilty of imflammatory rhetoric.

Anyone I've had extreme disagreements with already had gotten under my skin in the past but for one or two and we've exchanged cordial PM's so that they know I respect them immensely even though we disagree.

There are people who post in the diisability forum who see this case differently and I can't blame them. There's been some really nasty rhetoric decribing Terri Schiavo's physicality. If I used a wheelchair, bedpan, depends or a feeding tube, I'd take some of the statements made this week personally.

than the right to life one. I just fundamentally disagree that this case is the first step on the slippery slope toward making disability in general a fatal liability. But I'm sympathetic toward the view that it *might* be and that caution is required to ensure that it isn't.

I have no sympathy toward the view that quantity of life should be of greater consideration than quality of life--that maintaining even a spark of life should matter more than evaluating the quality of a life that can't argue for itself.

They are meant to divide and separate. I have been rather amazed at the lack of biological knowledge by some DU'ers who seem to be very educated otherwise. I mean, I thought high school biology would allow enough of a scientific background to understand the issue.

I don't expect young people to understand as much about disease and dying as an older person like myself would because we have personally experienced much of this ourselves. However, could you give us some credit for knowing what does really happen within our personal experience?

I think the worst thing though is the propaganda and political aspect where certain words are used to frame the issue that aren't anywhere near being true, nor factual in describing her condition. Worse than that are the outright lies. I am stunned.

Now the nuts are running around. I just heard on my local news that some nutjob has put a bounty on Michael Schiavo's head meaning that they are going to try to get him murdered. Where are his rights in being kept alive?

DO we really have rights like that? I mean, nobody is immune to being a victim of a crime.

carried on the mainstream media news, I would say it goes beyond just being a victim. Oh yes he offered a bounty of $2,000 or some such figure. I think this goes beyond random victimization don't you?

was dumb or idiotic. I usually try to avoid the controversial threads, but when someone posts a bunch of Fox News lies as being fact, I can't help but respond.

I've had enough of it. I'll probably take a break from DU until this case is no longer in the news. Unfortunately, there are going to be some serious repurcussions because of the GOP focusing on this case.

I've seen more labeling and narrow-mindedness than I've ever expected. For as inclusive that we're supposed to be, I've seen the opposite. I think there are times when some are too harsh.

Disagreement's normal so I'm never surprised by that, but I am at times shocked to see the very characteristics we accused the rw and neocons of having in some DUers.

There is also the good which far outweighs the negative. I've learned more here than any other place. Most are very helpful in pointing me in the right direction when I have questions. There are a lot of good people here and it's also wonderful to find a place where diversity is welcome.

and intelligent at assessing the situation. Some that came out swinging over the right to die gave pause and investigated. Others respected the religion(s) of those who were raised in a religious background that prohibits condoning such a thing.

Perhaps the biggest gain was finding overwhelming common ground in the area of this civil right of privacy and of the body, and in the role of states' rights in particular.

The attorneys in this forum were incredible at explaining the logistics of proceedings and helping with vocabulary. Physicians and nurses were helpful also. Hospice workers educated us about the realities of the dying process.

This has been and will continue to be an incredible education. It's not over.

I have been more objective in this because I was involved in the decision making process when my mother died and end stage for my dad, you learn as you go through it, I was a very different person afterwards, maybe, I just had more respect for what a gift every day living is, but for those who never had to deal with serious illness, let alone death, it would be easy to get overwhelmed and misled. My mother begged not to have any tubes inserted in her, she did not want her life artificially prolonged. I remember after my mother died, my friend said it's been over 3 days, how can you be still down? It's hard to deal with from the sidelines. What many don't realize is just how good a job the lawyers, judges and doctors here have done. I don't think that any one in all this time, has made a decision just to be mean, they tried to be objective as possible to focus on the facts, something that Jeb, GWB and Tom Delay, Bill Frist, and the MSM have thrown out the window.

Just a minute ago I came across an opinion that I would have never expected from this person in a million years.

Nothing in the past would suggest this person would hold that certain opinion either. In fact, everything they have ever posted indicated otherwise.

I think, maybe, a nerve has been touched and some heretofore unknown (never expressed in this forum) past pain has resurfaced....making it a very personal emotional issue....like this person is re-playing their original painful experience through the Shiavo case and expressing their own inner turmoil by cloaking it in the Shiavo issue...but really attempting to solve their own unhealed wound. If that makes sense.

maybe mortality issues, maybe abandonment issues

..."why wasn't he more natural in his lifetime. If he had been, he would have had somebody to look after him when he was struck with death, instead of lying there gasping out his last there, alone by himself." Ebneezer Scrooge Last of the Spirits from a Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens

whether they are democrat or republican.

Nail, meet hammer....

....whatever.

of controlling masters in office.

You described my thoughts exactly. Thank you. I was trying to find the right words.

I hate to see people I consider allies reveal themselves to be as interested in controlling me as the GOP.

It all gets added into the mix and yeah, some of the posts have fleshed out my understanding of some DUers. On the other hand, those who I know to a degree and whose beliefs in this case are different than mine, particularly folks like Tinoire, have made me take a new look at my own thoughts. I haven't changed them as a result, but I don't necessarily regard the posters in a poorer light, either.

It's not easy to hold to a minority viewpoint on DU, especially about charged topics. Genuine DUers who voice them in this case have my respect, if not my agreement.

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:shrug:

I am the primary caregiver and have been for ten years to my 87 year old mom...She's an amputee and has stage 3 colon cancer... Thank God she is alert and oriented...

Mortality is something I think about every day..

Peace

Brian

I like your slogan about being a Democrat.

Aside from the issue in this case which is about what TS wanted..again..some of the rhetoric by people who either have never been confronted by infirmity or diminishing capacity was really awful.

Where I saw it, I tried.

It's the first time that DU has really become obsessed with a distraction.

For the first time since I landed here, DU feels absolutely, and proudly, irrelevant.

Ugly as hell, too, as Tinoire so eloquently said.

It is the way it is supposed to work. We ain't no fucking Booshbots here. I find it great that on one issue I may agree with someone 100%. But I may be on exactly the opposite side of another issue with that same person the next day. Sometimes the same day.

If we all thought alike on every issue I would not be here. It would be too fucking boring. That is the whole idea of having a discussion board. Get over it. Tomorrow you can tell me to get over something. And there will be no hard feelings from me. I don't hold no grudges against anyone. Life is too short my friend. Give it some more thought.

Don

mondo joe's thread opened up my eyes about the seriousness of this today.

Don

There are few people that I have seen in a better light, and some for whom the light has dimmed. Opinions are one thing. So are emotions. But, some of the irrational, hysteric mud-slinging was out of control, on both sides. I also saw some people as nothing more than provocateurs. The one thing that really threw me for a loop was that what seemed as a possible in-road (the fuck-up by the right-wing) turned into a major wedge issue for us!

The accusations of "murderer" and the bullshit about Michael "owning" his wife really flew all over me. I also was profoundly disappointed in the "flamebait" threads that evolved, including the ones asking if we should "murder" their loved on who was in X situation. Those threads pissed me off to no end.

And, as someone already said, there is little difference between traditional religious persons, no matter what political affiliation they are. This situation brought out some very insightful remarks. It was also eye-opening in that sometimes the "left" and "right" really aren't all that different, just a different "master." :(

I will still remain open-minded to people, but I am much more wary now.

That is why the GOP does not have to make sense in their arguments. They are masters at playing on peoples emotions. Different people are emotional about different things. This is what framing is about, Frank Luntz runs focus groups to find emotional triggers. Dems are also emotional and our leaders use emotions too. This is human nature. Emotions rule a lot of personal interaction at many levels. I guess some people are just emotionally incompatible.

I can understand the uneasiness some people feel about the words starvation and dehydration, even though it boggles my mind that anyone could think any person on this earth would want to live in the state Ms. Schiavo is in.

But I doubt it would have anyway. When I'm on friendly terms with someone an opinion on a single issue doesn't change much. Hell, I argue to the point of near violence with my best friends sometimes but it doesn't change anything. We just agree to disagree at the end of it and go have a drink.

But I had severe disagreements with some people in the primaries with whom I'm mostly in total agreement nowadays. I'm thinking that when this bullshit passes, I'll let this water disappear under the bridge too. I hope they will as well.

and the consequences will reverberate for a long time.

A classic Rove op.

I believe that this and several other items that have been in the news and posted here, have been wedge issues, I think that the whole purpose of this is to divide the dems here, to get us into name calling and alienate the majority of the DU crowd, this is to weaken us as a group. Why, I believe that we are different from the Freepers, in that we constantly collect data and report back here, we have facts and links for people to use about what is going on, we are getting too powerful and it scares them.

Being that I practically live on this board, I tend to stay away from Ms. Schiavo threads.

It's sad all around.

and think the same.

There are some people whose agreement/disagreement wasn't what I would have bet on but no one's stance really surprised me. After years on this forum, you accept that not everyone sees everything the same way.

Differing opinions among consistent DU posters surprised me much less this time than they did during the pre-war days and during the primaries. Maybe that's because you get, after reading this forum day in and day out, and getting involved in a variety of forums/issues, that you get to see how the posters you know view the world and approach situations overall.

Few DUers surprised me but DU did because there was a revolting uneccessary callousness, mostly fuelled by posters we see very little of, other than during "peak times" that DU could have done without. The vileness is posted on right-wing blogs all over the internet now as a shameful testament to how we allowed some very insensitive people to get away with jello jokes that had no place here. Another thing that's posted all over, that will come back to bite the Democratic Party in the ass, is the lack of empathy for people of different beliefs. Every election day we wring our hands about how could Muslims have voted for Bush, why are more Jews, Catholics, Christians, stupidly making their beds with the Republicans. It's time we got a clue that it has less to do with what we want to do than how we are perceived. And the perception, this time, I'm afraid wasn't very good. All the thoughtful, emphatic and informative posts from the long-time DUers who agreed with the court's decision will be forgotten, buried in the dumps of the DU archives but the carefully selected calloused, insensitive posts are preserved for a long time on right wing sites and whether we like it or not, those are the ones people will remember when they want to see what Democrats thought of this.

There's another forum, name not allowed here, frequented by Leftist DUers where the discussions, containing ALL of the contentious points discussed here, were a lot more respectful and considerate of different views. We didn't have that here but we lost it a LONG time ago, way before DUers were even aware of the Schiavo story.

I think most people here agree that Terri's wishes should be followed. It seems to me most disagreement is that some here think letting Terri die is more about a lack of value for those who are disabled than letting her die with dignity. I respect that opinion but I just think you are not giving the rest of us enough credit. We don't look down upon Terri as less than a healthy person we simply think her wishes are the most important thing period. Under our Constitution following a persons wishes is absolutely SACRED!

wishes. He also claims that Terri wanted to be cremated and her ashes interred in Pennsylvania. Judge Greer has ordered it so.

If there was incontrovertible evidence that Terri wanted to die if she were in a condition to what she is now, I would be among the first to defend her right to die. As it is, the evidence is in dispute. The Court sided with Michael Schiavo because that's the law!

The law needs to be changed.

I don't believe Michael Schiavo!

And what is the legal foundation for this change?

Michael came to the Florida courts to see HOW they would rule on the issue. The courts became the surrogate decision maker in this case NOT Micheal. Michael was UNSURE on the issue of letting her die or not. The state brought in many experts and took testimony from both sides then concluded that Terri would not want to live that way. Once that decision was made Michael was absolutely helpless to change the court ruling.

Is the evidence in dispute as to what Terri wanted? Yes but it was not just Michaels testimony! Several people said the same thing as Michael and only ONE person said the opposite and her testimony was seen as less believable than the testimony from the other side.

It's debatable if this is enough to end her life and perhaps the courts made a mistake but lets face it, they did the best they could! Our system is NOT perfect but it's all we have and we should support what ever decision it makes when a case has been through so many courts and looked at by so many judges.

inconvenient facts.

Peoples prejudices are clouding their ability to use reason. Human nature can be so frustrating.

and law as the most far right extremists you can name.

They happen to have cast their lot with you on a few minor issues, but only in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" way.

The people are sooo "thoopid" they cant think for themselves and they really are freepers who are here to disrupt and avoid walking in lockstep.

Look at them....

Tinoire....obvious rwer
Indiana green....rwer
Tom Harken....rwer
The CBC....RWERS
Jesse Jackson...big rwer
Rev.AL Sharpton....rwer
drdon.....big rwer.


/sarcasm

rights are.

Disagreement about opinion is fine. Opposition to civil rights is not, and misrepresenting facts are not.

my point is this is not a R vs. L issue.

This poor woman will be dead soon....will justice be served ?

I think not.

Guys, cut it out. You're doing Bush's work for him.

I remember a few days ago, how elated we were when headlines like "Schaivo Case Splinters GOP" came across the wire.

Now look at how we're behaving.

Religion is the perfect wedge issue for the GOP to exploit; this Schaivo bullshit is but a subset of that wedge issue. You guys are falling for it.

If we can't even ride the momentum of this one issue and unite to fight when we've got the GOP on the ropes for once we might as well admit permanent defeat.

Don't let the GOP spinmeisters manipulate your emotions like this. You're all too smart and too goodhearted for that shit. The GOP knows we have a conscience, and they use that against us.

They find issues like this, then exploit them to their fullest, using all their media arsenal, so that we still get hung up on petty infighting and minor squabbles instead of staying focused on the big picture. This is right out of Machiavelli's handbook! Stop falling for it!

That is all.

a breakdown and I believed from the start this issue as I watched it proceed day after day, was MORE than Terri Schiavo.

This is about abortion rights and the dissolution of Roe vs Wade hiding under the rhetoric of "sanctity of life" as it applies to Schiavo.


That some could not see the whole picture is disturbing to me. Or perhaps I am making assumptions that pro-choice views are in the platform of the Democratic party.

But now--well folks, I think that women and the right to sovereignty over their own lives and their own bodies is very much in trouble--even here on DU.

I read today on another board that nine and ten year old children, little girls, are being exposed to aborted fetuses and being taught, as they look at that "little baby" immersed in formaldehyde, at that early age, that abortion is a wrong choice and tacitly that they will NOT be the captain of their bodies or their own lives--the male priests will be. I have no doubt there is more than one here, who argue for the body of a brain dead woman to be kept alive like a piece of protoplasm swimming around in a nourishing soup, for perhaps thirty more years, would also be those who would argue under their moniker of "pro-life" that women NEED to be under the tutelage of the state and the priests because, well because they say so and it is in the religion and this Schiavo case demonstrates clearly that those beliefs , in the minds of the fanatics, are to be the law of the land if they have to force it upon us with spurious means.

So, dear women, be afraid. If you are a liberal, if you believe in the freedom one has a right to to self determination re their own body, then be very afraid. I believe it is coming and I believe women will be the losers all the way around.

I would almost expect to see a forum dedicated to "pro-life" issues here on DU, if there is not one already.

for abortion for teens, but then suggest an adult woman needs parental okay to terminaste her own life support.

I do feel that some of the comments made about the parents were waaaay out of bounds.

great thread...bookmarked.

I just dislike people threatening me if we disagree. Fortunately, nobody on DU is that deranged! :grouphug:

people are thinking differently about, just because I'm not willing to jump on the Michael Schiavo hero-worship bandwagon. Because, despite my belief that Terri should have been allowed to die years ago, despite the courts having affirmed Michael's position again and again, I question his motives and recognize the possibility that he's not this saintly person trying to carry out his wife's wishes. Because I think he should have spared himself and all of us by handing Terri's care over to her parents.