Whatever his substance, Dean has "the music."

These are just some thoughts after seeing (most) of the Dem candidates in Iowa yesterday.

I should preface this by saying I'm not a Dean groupie. I live near Vermont, so as governor Dean has long been a part if the backdrop of regional news here. My basic impression is that he was a good governor, did some very good things, but was not outstanding or an inspiration. I'm also a little skeptical about his committment to the constituency that has lined up behind him. He could go either way -- be the breath of fresh air that liberalism needs. Or he could become just another DLC cerntrist waffler.

But having said that, my overidiong impression of him as a candidate is that he has "It." That magic that seperates the competant, run-of-the-mill candidates from someone who can really grab you and resonate on a viseral level. It's the quality JFK, Reagan and Clinton had. You can't put your finger on it, but it's there and grabs you. A certain theatrical ability to just get you at a gut level and hold your interest.

I've heard that quality referred to as "the music." And Dean's got the music.

Someone I know said it simply. "He sounds like he means it." That credibility is part of it. But it's also a sense of command, or assurance. Plus a certain unpredictability -- even when giving the same old stump speech. The sense that he's putting things together in a different way than the usual. It makes watching and listening an experience, rather than a duty or chore.

None of the others have that "music" to the same degree. That's not a slam at them. But they don't have that same elusive quality.

Like I said, I'm not a rabid Deanie at this point. But as a campaigner, he's very impressive.

now as a president you are also correct in that Dean is no rabid liberal, the progrssive candidate in this race is Kucinich. But Dean has brought progressives in because he recognized that Democrats were going too easy on Bush and rank and file dems were mad as hell about it. His record is good as you say and his state is better off than many others. I don't see Dean as a McGovern but as another Bill Clinton. Like Clinton, I think Dean is a centrist with some profound liberal impulses.

But there is no way DK can win.

Old fashioned, retail politics. I think it's wonderful.

is "Imagine".

"None of the others have that "music" to the same degree. That's not a slam at them. But they don't have that same elusive quality."

I guess it's all your own perpective but no one in this election has what I want to hear but Dennis. And I don't feel like he is just out there singing a song. Elusive is not a characteristic I'm looking for in a candidate, either. ;)

He's saying all the things I believe in. And he's very effective as a regonal politician and legaslative leader, and a progresive catalyst.From what I hear, he is able to rally people in person.

But in terms of presidential politics, and what's needed in that sphere, it isn't there.

I think Dean initially was out to be a DLC candidate, but "a funny thing happened on the way to the forum". As Dean went around the country for a year, he listened to the people and then he spoke for them, especially on anti-Iraq-war issues. He also listened how we felt about the pink tutu crowd, and he voiced that. Dean has earned our trust by speaking for us. I think his motives also changed as he listened and spoke for us.

As he listened he also observed what happened in the 2002 midterms, and he has taken no corporation money. Most of his donors are the middle class.

He is a true populist candidate and he has my loyalty, and hopefully I'll have the chance to vote for him for President.

I don't agree with Dean on everything (at all), my opinions are much closer to Kucinich. However I do feel that he takes my point of view (well, not mine personally yet) into consideration, and incorporates it into the opinions of many many other people to come out with an opinion that is greater than the sum of all those opinions. I do not feel he panders to anyone, but rather finds the common ground. He then presents the position in a way that makes me say, OK, that is reasonable, I can live with it, it even makes sense.

Bill Clinton was in Iowa. He might just be the most intelligent, articulate man on the planet. He can grab your attention and hold it with facts, theory, laughter and tears. He is a man for all seasons... a centrist with a real desire to help "everyman." Gore is the same. Dean may be also. I am tired of our representatives who do not represent us. Just because of an August vacation noone is going to investigate the WMD lies, an impeachable offense?

at the rally before the main event in Indianola yesterday. I was part of two busses, about 100 people from the Kansas City area who went up, and we had a separate rally for Dean prior to the speeches you saw on C-Span. And he absolutely had the music. As a middle-aged, musically out of it mom, all I know is that I liked what I heard, and the college students I was standing with were VERY pleased with what they were hearing, and kept commenting that the songs were absolutely appropriate for Dean and his message.

There were easily 800-1000 Dean people at the rally. Busses came in from Oklahoma, Grinnell College (Iowa), and Minnesota, as well as many who came along on their own.

Our group had let the Dean people know we'd be bringing up so many people, they immediately said they'd arrange the separate event. Dean was much more informal with us. At one point he was marvelling at how the political process was being transformed by the internet, and someone yelled, "Thank you Al!" It was a great moment.

But I am sure that if he gets the nomination, when he has to start appealing to swing voters to win the general election, people here will get mad.

They know he's not a liberal and he's already running a general election and has been for a long time. I'm a swing voter and he appeals to me. It would be one thing if he couldn't explain why he has the positions he does in such a clear, common sense way. But he can do that. Even my toddler is mesmerized by him when she sees him on TV. She can't understand what he's talking about, but she's glued to the television and listening. She has a very short attention span, too. Anyone who can keep her interested and sitting still for longer than 5 minutes is going to get the attention and interest of voters. :)

I think he's already appealing to swing voters. He really is the centrist that he says he is. I don't think that he's fooling his supporters into thinking he's Kucinich or anything. He mentioned in his house party conference call the other day that he doesn't feel like he's going to have to move to the center for the general election. He's already attracting many independants and republicans.

That's why so many Dean supporters are protesting that we don't want to hear the same stump speech, we want more.

I love his unpredictability and it totally keeps me on tenderhooks waiting for the next new thing he says. He's such an edgy guy, just brimming with energy, emotion and passion.

And that's why I especially love to watch town hall meetings, because the questions are varied so we can hear more more more.

Do the other candidates supporters get excited in anticipation of their next appearance?

Just curious.

p.s. Dean on HBO's KStreet tonight. Must see TV.

as far as I'm concerned.

It's not just about that certain, special appeal, though. It's also what he says. We all know the country is in SO much trouble. Dean recognizes that, he's not only chastized fellow Dems to get busy and criticize the current regime, he's provided cover for them. In that he shows leadership, spine, gumption, and courage. Most of us who are Dean supporters hear "the truth" coming from him, and we've thirsted for that for so long!!!

But even more than that, like mandyky, I see that the campaign has transformed HIM. I encourage everyone to read his June 23 Announcement speech where he outlines exactly that point. At first it was about policy differences and it soon became more, as he LISTENED to the people. He came to understand that this was about way more than policies -- it literally IS about taking our country back.

The Dean campaign is now as much a movement (when you include his supporters) as a campaign. And that's NOT what the other candidates can offer, but it IS the secret of Dean's success EVEN THO he didn't plan it that way. It started happening, he and Trippi allowed it then graduated to facilitating it.

I do believe he means what he says when he tells us: YOU HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE THIS PARTY BACK. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE BACK THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE BACK THE WHITE HOUSE.

That's a VERY powerful message -- it's one that inspires, gives hope, and generates excitement and optimism. He has other optimistic messages, but these resonate with all of us who have felt so disempowered, hopeless, unheard and unheaded for too many years now. And he means it. It was HE who told Trippi, "We've got to decentralize" this campaign (and allow the grassroots to do their thing).

Too, they're running an inspired campaign, and every day is a new delight it seems. They're also having fun. That means a lot to supporters too -- hasn't it been too too long since we've felt any reason for joy, or enough optimism to have fun?

To go with what mandyky was saying, and it will take a special eye to actually read this as I believe it was meant (instead of ripping it apart and parsing words, like so many of our anti-Dean resident curmudgeons do), but perhaps you can get its meaning, found in a very nice and lengthy profile piece on Dean:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/41/features-wolf.php

Back in the car, Dean resumes, almost to the sentence, where we’d left off. He’s been describing the adrenaline boost that can come from a crowd: “This campaign’s a little different from most campaigns,” he says, sounding oddly mystical, “in the sense that it’s not really about me, it’s about a movement to take back the country . . . I’m really a kind of mirror for a lot of those folks, and it’s their own energy which I can reflect back to them. So in a rally, it’s just automatic, I know what they want and I know what they need, and I just reflect back their own hopes and energies and desire to change the country . . .”

What I believe Dean is saying, and doesn't have a better (more mystical) way of putting it, is that he's tapping into (intuiting) the collective unconscious in a way that allows him to be a channel or conduit and impetus for positive change at a very deep level in this country. It was NEVER what he started out to do or be. He only originally thought he had better ideas than what were being implemented by Bush. It has become something far bigger, and not at totally tangible: I do believe Dean IS the right man for this time. I believe he has already grown immeasurably in this role, and will continue to do so.

I see him --- and the movement he has become the leader of (by default rather than design) -- the answer to prayers we didn't even consciously know we had.

Eloriel

That choked me up, Eloriel.:cry:

And quite a poetic post.

My wife and I just went to our first in-person Dean event,
at someone's house in New Hampshire. All we got was
the standard stump speech (which I almost have memorized)
and a few questions.

But, in response to one of the questions, he came out with
something like ...we have to stop the corporatization of America...
You could watch the man listen/think/respond. You could see
he has a brain, that he is aware that at any time he could say
a sentence that Rush or KKKarl Rove will play ad nauseam.
And, yet, in spite of this, he speaks his heart through his mind.

Can you imagine any DLC Democrat decrying the corporatization
of America? Its because Dean won't take corporate money that
he is free to say things like this.

If the middle class in America realizes that it has been sent to
the glue factory, it still has the dollars left to let Dean match the
GOP (and the DLC beforehand) dollar-for-dollar. I think people
criticizing Dean for considering refusing government funds is
either naive or actively hostile. You don't walk onto a battlefield
outgunned. The campaign laws have been proven to be a joke.

Anyway, I'm not in a cargo cult. I am still watching and listening.
But I like what I hear and see and feel.

arendt

>>>Can you imagine any DLC Democrat decrying the corporatization
of America? Its because Dean won't take corporate money that
he is free to say things like this.<<<

Exactly. That is a central issue of our day, and it drives almost every other issue, eitehr directly or indirectly.

It should be second-nature for a Democrat to be able to say that.

One of the best posts I've read on this board. I’m really a kind of mirror for a lot of those folks, and it’s their own energy which I can reflect back to them. That is Dean's movement in a nutshell.

Long time no post!

I'm not a total committed Deanie....but gave him some money.....and see what you see.......

I'm a "reserved" Dean supporter......Like the energy.....and the internet funding....and that he's a maverick, I think.

But, agree........he could end up differently than many of his supporters think......

(It's that "wisdom from experience" that makes some cautious with him......:D

Good to see you back...!

I had a long post about why in the Lounge a few days ago. Won't repeat it here. In a nutshell, have been feeling political disconnection recently. Nothing wrong, just needed time away from the movie for a while I guess.

:hi:

from your torpor. Welcome back.

:hi:

Hey!

Yep, to paraphrase Paul Simon "still Armstead after all these years." ;)

He certainly sounds like he means it, commands attention, and is unpredictable. Does "the music" favor a certain ideology or does it span the spectrum?

Can anyone watch Rumsfeld and say it is not an "experience?"

You sound like the people that attacked the New Yorker for saying courage was a morally nuetral term. I'm just wondering if "the music" is morally nuetral. What's so controversial about that?

It's another thing to try (lamely) to defend it.

No, "the music" -- in Dean's case, anyway -- isn't morally neutral. In Dean's case, the morally positive is part of what defines him.

Thanks for playing.

Eloriel

if I had to pick music......and even Wagner is too good for Rummy......

Doesn't Rummy look like Darth without the helmet?

Dr. Dean does have "it" as you say. The crowds, the volunteers, the fundraising are not all just because he was against the War in Iraq or because he has a hotdog group with savy internet experience helping him. That's part of it, but I agree with so...

It's Howard Dean. He just connects with people.

And it's something that doesn't seem to be going away, it just comes natural to him.

Hitler really got people fired up! They were going to take their country back. And they did. Sorta.

Content and context are important. What makes anyone think Dean will do anything to even slow the advance of corporatism and the corporatocracy, much less reverse or defeat it?


(and for Goddess's sake, spare us all the phony-outraged 'so you think Dean is Hitler!', okay?)

Oh, I saw a great quote in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (9/14/03):

"Last week, the Patriots and Eagles were like Dennis Kucinich's campaign for presidency.

Pointless."

by responding to a valid comparison with insults? There is nothing untrue in what I said. It should make you think carefully, not react mindlessly. Unless you're a fascist --are you?-- then you should damned well be worried whether Dean would halt our slide into fascism, and you should be thinking carefully about whether the evidence you have is convincing both to you and to others.

Reacting with puerile insults is...puerile.

You really think you are doing Kucinich a favor by mindlessly insisting that you made a "valid comparison," insisting that it's true and mindlessly calling those who don't agree with your smear tactics "facsist"?

Why oh why is it that some Kucinich supporters can't make an argument for their candidate, but can only emit high pitched squeals and say "Dean is like Hitler!" and then not back up such an absurd assertion with a single, solitary fact? No one's compared Kucinich to Hitler, not even to point out that they are both vegetarians. Part of it could be because that's a cheap tactic; the other part could be that Kucinich isn't really being taken seriously enough by anyone except a few fanatical cultists.

You compare Dean to Hitler; I quote an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer. Accusations of fascism erupt. Yes, that was very puerile behavior; and it was very brave of you to label your own behavior so adroitly.

As for you question of me being a facsist, I'll simply ask you if you've stopped using crack yet. Surely you won't object to me using the "loaded question" on you after you've just done it.

Edit: typo

Like invoking Hitler, declaring victory and retreating is another dishonorable Usenet tradition that's been translated to the Web. I don't really blame you - backing up insane allegations such as the ones you made would be damn near impossible even in the hands of a skilled debater.

Do you agree Dean has "{t}hat magic that seperates the competant, run-of-the-mill candidates from someone who can really grab you and resonate on a viseral level. ... A certain theatrical ability to just get you at a gut level and hold your interest."?

Are you aware that Hitler had the ability to "grab {his audience} and resonate at a visceral level"; to "get {his audience} at a gut level and hold {their} interest"?

Please show my any post of mine where I have said any of what you have in italics.

You won't be able to, because I've never said any such thing. If you are capable of debating honestly, you will retract your bullshit claim. Feel free to make insane allegations, though; it won't make you credible or you candidate likeable, but it will get you the attention you seem to so desperately crave. Why else shriek "Hitler! He's just like HITLER! Waah!" rather than make a coherent, logical argument against Dean?

Your pathetic smear tactics have been noted, and alas, that's all I'm coming to expect from far too many Kucinich supporters.

In the spirit of your posts, I'll ask again: Still doing crack and heroin?

You didn't say that about Dean, Armstead did, in his basenote. Nor did you say it about Hitler: I said it by reference ( "so did Hitler" ). Nor did I ever claim by statement or implication that you said either one. What you did was to go off half-cocked and claim that I was saying Dean was 'just like Hitler' when in fact what I was saying is that being able to rouse a crowd is not ipso facto a good thing.

More clear?

You got caught making an outrageous statement.

Now you backpedal.

Not very honest, you know.

Tsk tsk.

Oh, and thanks for laughs!

You have neither fact nor logic on your side, so you pound the table. I'm done trying to communicate with you. Other people can come to their own conclusions.

Those are some pretty big terms for someone who uses the Hitler argument to throw around! Pretty funny, too. Thanks for the laughs!

As for coming to conclusions; well, I think you've shown your true colors pretty well, and it's fair to conclude that you can't support your poorly made allegation, and in fact, would rather name-call and run away than try to defend it. As I said, I understand - even someone with decent debating skills would be hard-pressed to to defend that silly, shrill allegation.

and I'm still wondering why you think Mairead was using "The Hitler Argument"

The truth is, Hitler DID have "the music".

Dismissed.

Case "wholly without merit."

and does not reflect well on your own particular favorite.

There are Kucinich cheerleading threads here that are not frequented by Dean supporters leveling that brand of slur. Truly shameful.

Explain yourself, please.

We pass by many threads gloating/supporting other candidates, and in spite of the fact that we appear to out number supporters of other candidates you are left in peace to support your man/woman. Allow us the same please. :shrug:

Because no one is paying attention to them.

If you stop that, then no one will have occasion to respond.

Who has made an unsupportable claim? You mean when someone posted their opinion about a certain candidate having a certain something?

Nah.

As long as people keep talking about Dean, others are going to butt in because no one is talking about their candidate. And they're going to fuss and fuss and wail and whine and say the damndest things to get attention while stomping their tiny little feet. Surest way to get attention: Hitler! Cheapest, too.

Dean has 'the music'? :freak:

I've read many a Kucinich thread and had 'things to add' but I left my opinion out of it because I feel you have a right to 'gloat' about your candidate. Allow me/us the right to do the same.

It's not a good thing, by itself. It's only a good thing if used to good ends. In my original post, I asked: what evidence do we have that Dean will, if elected, use his power to halt the advance of corporatism and the corporatocracy. That question was ignored, but ignoring it didn't and won't make it go away.

It's sort of like Dennis's claimed change of attitude on Choice. I was (and am, really) only willing to give him a provisional okay on that. His recent speech and vote against the so-called-PBA ban was a point in his favor, and his record of steadfastness against the elites over Muny Light also helps, as does his general pro-working-class record. But there's no way he's off the hook. I'm not going to stop watching him critically, and I'm not going to swoon at his feet. I'm not trying to decide whether to date him or marry him, I'm trying to decide whom to hire to be a leader-employee. I don't want someone who will turn me on, I want someone who will turn our damned country around. So letting my emotions run me would be the very worst thing I could do.

I'm old enough to remember Hitler, though not old enough to remember him coming to power. But I've listened to recordings of a couple of his speeches from that time and I understand why people--even non-Germans--were mesmerised by him. He was a very powerful orator. But he used that power to betray both the German people and the whole world. Reagan did much the same thing, though in a different style and possibly with smaller consequences. I think Dean supporters should in self-defence be stepping back and taking the most dispassionate look they possibly can at Dean's record and his policies.

You should know supporting the 'loudest' candidate in the race.

In addition, If you want to start a thread about corporatism please do so. This thread is about charisma, tis best to stick to the topic.

You said~"I think Dean supporters should in self-defence be stepping back and taking the most dispassionate look they possibly can at Dean's record and his policies."

You are claiming we have not done so? Insulting to say the least.

Reagan could rouse a crowd also.

Not only are you comparing a damn good human being to Hitler, but you are also comparing Dean's supporters to Nazis, and frankly it's not only inappropriate, but disgusting. Lord forbid anyone actually get excited about and involved in politics.

Try to understand that what I said is that the mere ability to rouse a crowd is not ipso facto a good thing. The example I used was Hitler because he is well-known for having been someone who could rouse a crowd.

If I had made the point that being a vegetarian is not enough to define a person as good or bad, and had pointed to Hitler as an example, would you claim that I was saying Hitler and Kucinich are alike in other ways too?

Think, please!


(edit: changed example)

his rhetoric is coopted from Nader 2000 but his actual governing style was more like Zell Miller's.

while governing like Zell Miller.

:hurts: I've got better things to do...

PA=Aye
IWR=Aye
Homeland Security=Aye

Sounds like someone else is "governing" like Zell, while giving lip service to a more progressive position on these subjects. Of course, this comparison is absurd. Just as yours is.



Some people don't like rhetoric. Period.


Can someone turn the music up a little more?

and he was FOR use of force to disarm Iraq and FOR a different version of the resolution. Of course, if Dean had been a Dem lawmaker charged with negotiating with the WH on that resolution, what would he have done? He would have fallen back on his trademark style of compromising with the GOP.

Dean was FOR the Patriot Act BEFORE there was a Patriot Act. He brought up the curtailing of civil rights himself THREE days after Sept. 11.

There's an awful lot of predictive vision in that post.

he would also have voted in October for the invasion.

I'd like to discuss. But, this isn't the place.

Dean has "it" - Dean has that special "something" - Dean has the "music"

What Dean doesn't have is any chance in HELL of beating Bush. I'm so tired of the feel-good substance-free non-message of the Deanites.

You would see that I am not a "Deanite." I'm still open about it all, and frankly, Kucinich and Sharpton are the ones who are closest to my views.

I was merely making an observation after seeing most of them the other day.

And if Dean doesn't have a chance in hell of besating Bush, none of them do. Except for possibly the the "Son of GW" Joe Lieberman, they will all branded as "unelectably liberal" by the media, the GOP and the DLC Republicans.

You say you're not a Deanie, yet you are posting the same message Eloriel and the other Deanites have posted - you just changed "that special something" to "the music".

Fell good rhetoric just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Dean may have the "music" - it would fit in with his style over substance campaign.

but I also have trouble with this. Armstead has started scores and scores of posts criticizing "centrists". Now, Armstead seems sympathetic to one of the most centrist candidates (with a particular emphasis on their unwilingness/inability to do anything about corporate power) and offers no reason for this aside from "the music".

I'm not saying it's impossible, but Armstead hasn't done a very good job of explaining and reconciling what Armstead used to say (about centrists and corporate power) to what's been said in this thread.

:shrug: