A suggestion

Given that the current GOP longs to regulate our lives, why not encourage them to go all out and tackle the old reliable...alcohol.

Yep! Let's encourage our 'Bible-believing Christians,' which is redundant, to give Prohibition one more shot. After all, alcohol is bad, right? With all the alcohol-related deaths, their cult of life must be crying out for the banning of this pernicious substance.

Best of all, encourage them to leave out that annoying religious exemption from the first go round. That way, those heathen Papists will begin their turn away from sin and onto the path of righteousness.



Forgive the bile; I went a little overboard on the sarcasm.

Anyway, I am serious as hell. Encourage your friendly neighborhood fundamentalist to go on a crusade to get rid of demon alcohol, especially in Catholic churches. Explain to them all the detrimental effects of alcohol and emphasize the ruin of the body-temple by consumption of this evil drink.

I wish they would do this. We could have a slogan like 'the damn fundies want to steal your beer!' or something appropriately witty.

The one thing I never hear churches complain about is alcohol.

make sure there's two of 'em with you, cause then YOU get all the beer.

Very few baptists in eastern Ohio :shrug: It was pretty funny though.

One of the Catholic churches here has a yearly festival full of fun games and kegged beer. The churches in my city are all sponsors of a fireman's festival where there is, you guessed it, kegged beer. Nobody here is going to talk down about alcohol. :)

(have since gone "heathen" (atheist))...

but i know from experience the RC's got nothing against good drink, good smokes (tobacco only though), and good food. Or dancing. Or card playing.

I forgot about the gambling. :)

types in local office doing two things:
1. Trying to restrict type, location, hours of alcohol sales
2. Trying to forbid it completely.

We do have an alcoholism problem around here, but it might be the same inother areas.

Anyway, this county would probably vote for prohibition.

the only thing that takes down W is prohibition.

that would be ironic.

or at least it did a few years ago. :-)

and I for one am NEVER giving up my wine! :toast:

AA's origins are found in an extreme Christian group from the early 20th century (The Oxford Group).

Some argue that AA is a Christian based, religious cult:

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/

Many people are court mandated to 12 Step groups for DWI or drug convictions. People in this situation often suck it up, without exercising their rights. Some courts (like NY State) have ruled that this is a violation of religious freedom. Stanton Peele, addiction expert, explains this here:

http://www.peele.net/faq/develop.html

Many AA's would be more than thrilled if courts would stop ordering people to meetings. They tend to be annoying wastes of space. A treatment program would be much more beneficial.

Bill W had serious problems with the Oxford Group. Bill W even went through a phase where he dropped acid. He and Dr. Bob, and many others, through trial and error, created the AA program. They drew from alot of sources, religious and pscyhiatric. Carl Jung, William James, Catholic priets, lots of people. This Oxford Group crap is the dumbest stuff I've heard in a while, and I've heard it before this post too.

And I'm not arguing that AA is or is not cultish. In my experience, each 12 Step group takes on a different flavor, depending on many factors--location, the personalities in that home group, etc. And I am not saying that AA is "bad" for all people. Obviously, many people find it to be helpful.

My point is this: 12 Step groups and programs have been deemed by the courts as religious, with origins in Christian philosophy. This poses a problem for any non-religious/atheist/agnostic/non-Christian individual who is mandated to treatment and/or meetings AND objects to the 12 Step philosophy. Approximately 90% of substance abuse treatment programs (inpatient and outpatient) are 12-Step based. The remainder includes TC's (which are notorious for abusive tactics and heavily tied to right wing politics--like KIDS, Straight, Elan, etc.) and non- 12 Step, for-profit programs that only the rich can afford. Since DWI law enforcement and related treatment mandates continue to escalate, this lack of alternative programming poses a significant problem. It also demonstrates a certain level of bias toward one theory of addiction and treatment--when there are other, state of the art, avenues of recovery. Europe is far ahead of America in this area. Our drug treatment is heavily tied with religious philosophy. The Europeans have proven they are less inclined to mix the two issues.

For instance?

It's proven to be rather useless in the past.

These days, US 12 step treatment is run by social workers and pscyhologists, as often as not. The spiritual aspect is actually minimized, with inner child work predominating. The disease concept isn't as prevalent either. In fact, alot of treatment centers don't get it at all and still think people drink because of tragic childhoods. I've known AA's who haven't even done the steps and base their entire recovery on the latest John Bradshaw or Melody Beattie self help book.

Anyway, this is far from the original post which was turning AA into some sort of Oxford Group religious right conspiracy theory front group.

If George Bush and Tom Delay had gone to AA 20 years ago, we'd be in a helluva lot better shape. I guarantee that.

You are right--most 12 Step inpatient and outpatient programs are run by clinicians. But I can assure you, after working in this field for 11 years, the disease theory dominates addiction treatment in the US.

The link between PTSD or childhood trauma and addiction is astounding. There is substantial research to prove it. Check out the journals on addiction research. Chemicals are often used to medicate anxiety and to dissociate from reality, in a person who has experienced childhood or other trauma. If a clinician minimized this in her assessment and treatment of an addicted or chemically dependent person, she would be negligent. Negligence can lead to a license suspension.

I don't practice "inner child work"--that sounds a little fluffy to me. They did not teach that in my graduate program. I never worked with someone who would regard that as a clinical approach. Maybe I am just lucky.

This debate is not useless. If it were useless, all people would agree, treatment programs would have higher success rates, and everyone would practice the 12 Steps faithfully. I have written and been approved for a grant and additional funding for an alternative addiction program for women. If everyone agreed that 12 Step treatment is the only way my grant, and other requests for funding, would have flopped.

Two different diagnoses, and yes, a clincian would be negligent in missing that diagnosis. But it happens all the time with a variety of mental illnesses. That isn't what I'm talking about.

Disease concept is addiction because you're addicted. Not 1,001 extemperaneous issues to hash through before you can quit. You hash through those issues mostly because it's what normal people have always done, it leads to a happier life. You also hash through them because you may have been using them as an excuse for your addiction for many years. They don't cause addiction. Inner child work is work that focuses on childhood trauma, rather than the adult acceptance of the need to take responsibility for the disease of addiction.

The connection between childhood trauma and addiction may well be the chicken/egg problem. Did the childhood trauma happen because of a parent's addiction which the child inherited? Does addiction happen because people are in poverty, or does poverty happen because people are addicted and can't keep a job?

These issues are certainly worth discussing. The discussion I was referring to is the Ibogaine, European end prohibition discussion which I have found to be relatively useless because it generally isn't based in complete fact. You don't seem to be that sort.

And traumatic experience is not necessarily equated with mental illness.

I agree with you--if an individual is unwilling to take responsibility for the addiction or substance abuse problem, there cannot be a recovery program. It is interesting in clinical practice to observe how many people are self-recovered. Many people stop drinking or drugging with no assistance from programs, therapy, psychiatrists, or support groups. Research on people who quit smoking show that most successful quitters do it without medication, hypnotherapy, the patch, etc. Research also shows that many smokers (with history of other chemical dependency problems) report that smoking is more difficult to quit than drugs. This research speaks to the power of self-recovery and the human ability to create change. Programs provide a support system. But they don't work for every person.

These things aside, my original point was that American addiction treatment is heavily tied with drug policy, DWI laws, and the court system. The right-wing and Christianity does influence drug policy, laws, and programs. If you are interested in some glaring examples of corruption in addiction treatment--research programs like Straight, Inc. and Daytop. Lots of right-wing/religious/political ties there. I think they finally shut down Straight, because the abuse of kids was finally revealed. But Daytop is running strong. 95% of their population is mandated through the drug courts. If you are poor, live in NYC, and have a non-violent drug charge, they often send you to Daytop. Daytop's founders came from the cult Synanon. They adopted Synanon's language and bizarre, abusive treatment tactics.

There is a tremendous need for non-religious and varied chemical dependency programming. 12-Step programs have a monopoly in the addiction treatment business. And the TC's (like I described above) are an unfortunate alternative.

As you can probably guess, I have a certain amount of professional and personal passion about this subject (addiction/recovery/drug sentencing). It seems like you share a similar interest in the subject. Perhaps we can learn from each other.

All The Best, animus

Comparing Synanon to 12 step recovery isn't remotely fair. And I'd have to say, if the choice was to go towards clinical treatment or strictly religious treatment, I'd have to say the clinical would have more success. You generally can't holy-roller your way into sobriety. You mention glaring corruption, you can look at CompCare as well. Although I'm not sure they're still in business.

Also, I mistook your mixing in PTSD and mental anxiety as mental illness. I would say somebody with a PTSD diagnosis who is drinking instead of treating, is self-medicating. But maybe that's just me. Of course, it could also be an alcoholic who is using traumatic events as an excuse to continue drinking. Kind of like the occasional 'Vietnam vet' who was never in Vietnam.

I don't like alot of the politics in treatment either, but AA is not the enemy. That's all.

I noted the alternative to 12-Step programs is often the TC. I stated that the TC--specifically Daytop-- has its origins in Synanon.

PTSD is a mental illness. MICA treatment necessarily differs from standard substance abuse treatment. The mental illness and the chemical dependency have to both be considered in a sound treatment plan.

However, anxiety and traumatic experience are not necessarily indicative of mental illness. It depends upon the individual. Some people use drugs to cope with all of the above. If the individual understand their triggers, they are more likely to find alternative, healthier coping strategies. If a person with chemical dependency is unaware of the the triggers, the triggers can rule that individual in an unconscious manner. Knowing the triggers can help prevent relapse.

Unfortunately, politics is mixed with American substance abuse treatment. Public and private programs contract with the drug courts(non violent drug offenders) and the town courts(DWI offenders) to fill their inpatient beds and their outpatient programs. 12 Step treatment is not "the enemy." But 12 Step programs have a monopoly on the treatment industry. Since 12 Step programs have been deemed by the courts as "religious" in nature, there is a need for non-religious treatment alternatives. Given the significant problems with the non-12 Step, TC (like Daytop, JCAP, Phoenix House, Straight, etc.), I don't consider the TC a sound alternative.

Seems like the fundies are trying to promote everything that's our legal and free right.

So crazy it might just work!

they were allowed to make or import small amounts of communion wine

That's why I suggested closing that exemption. The more rabid their crusade, the better.

P.S. I'm Catholic myself and I'd love to see the church's reaction to this. :P

Since we now live in a theocracy, we have to have the ready access to the materials to practice our faiths...and this MUST include alcohol.

Replace wine with grape juice? No way!

In fact, I'll bet if such a measure ever got rolling again, the Charlatans would flow onto the airwaves...sponsored by Coors...to note that there are passages in the bible that speak of the sanctity of Beer, Whiskey Sours, Wine Coolers and 5:00 Martini.

course and now there are some serious rumblings here (KS) that "convenant marriages" may be the hot button issue next year and outlawing "no fault divorce" is a part of that. What I thought was a crazy idea, they are embracing!

Wait til they try to outlaw divorce. Oh, I want to see that soooooooooooooo bad.

Please, please, please let them try to outlaw divorce. There will be Republicans jumping ship like rats! Especially since they get more divorces than those of us on the left.

I encourage people on the right to outlaw divorce in the name of "the sanctity of marriage." I really, really want to see them try this. It will be their undoing.

Wonder if they would go for it??