I don't get it...why the uber-faithful get so distraught over death

The super-fundies, and now the Catholics...meaning no disrespect to either (I don't much care what people believe) I don't understand why these people who live their entire lives with the goal of "going to be with God" get so freaked. Oh sure, there's the emotional pain of losing an important figure in your life, but shouldn't they be rejoicing that this person they hold so dear is finally getting their heavenly reward?

Let's be honest here...if there is anything after this earthly life, people like Terri and the Pope pretty much have their spots reserved, wouldn't you think? That should (to my mind) remove any hand-wringing and distress about their passing...no? The constant prayer vigils and such...what's that about? :shrug:

The shortest verse in the Bible is 'Jesus wept'.

If you TRULY BELIEVE with all your heart that you go to heaven when you die, what's to fear?

Shouldn't God protect him? Or if he were to get assassinated (I assume that's why he rides around in a bulletproof Mercedes Benz), wouldn't that be God working in a mysterious way?

I don't understand it either. If he was 30 and was seriously injured in a car accident, I can understand the praying for recovery. But he is a very old man in very poor health.

--Bill Hicks :D

so the praying thing is just a little insurance...

That may not register consciously, but it sure as hell will register subconciously when a religious person is faced with mortality - how could it not?

and all the most sanctimonious prigs out there secretly know they've done things in the past that would disqualify them from the heaven they profess to be headed towards by their own definitions of disqualification.

They fear death because they know they're frauds, in other words. They're not saints. They're human.

There are things in my misspent youth that make me cringe to think of them, and I don't have the additional baggage of fearing a divine judgment and exposure before all creation when I die. They do.

To understand religion it is not about understanding the text, their traditions, or the organizations. You have to understand the cause and effect of such a prescribed view of the world.

The irrational fear comes from a structured social framework that does not accommodate but to help support personal beliefs. The higher order of your own beliefs the closer you are to your particular God. So socially it is unacceptable to find fault in anything that directly or indirectly supports that social belief. There is direct evidence of this outside of theological social groups as well.

Take any conspiracy that has either been proven or not. Simply mentioning that you have taken interest in any conspiratorial story automatically discredits you. Even with your closest friends, parents, or siblings. This is because over time we rely on social acceptance to guide not only what we believe but also what we know. The frightening thing is that if you understand the cause affect of being shunned socially it can be used to control different aspects of individual behavior.

So these "true" believers may have to hold beliefs that to the non-believer seem as utter contradictions. The only way to get people to believe in contradictions is to withhold information then make them afraid of knowing it. Bingo the formula for social control, make them afraid of knowing the truth.

This is not just a symptom of religion, but they are the most obvious example of control by fear.

then what's to fear? That maybe there isn't one? That it's all over?
That maybe you'll be born again, no pun intended, and Karma will catch up with you? Or, heaven forbid, there really is a Heaven, but you're not goin' there. OH, hell!

It's ordinary human grief.

I had tears come to my eyes when I heard the first report of JPII's death. (Before it was retracted.) I don't doubt that he will go to Heaven. It's more sadness because I like and respect the man, and I am sorry to lose him. It has nothing to do with fear. I'm sad for MY loss, not for his sake.

and I don't get it either. I've never understud why people cry at funerals and things like that and why it's so sad. People of faith should know their loved one's aren't gone but have returned to their orginial home and back to God. Shouldn't you be happy for them? I understand you're losing someone you love but wouldn't you want them to have that peace and happiness and be able to rest in peace?

But, have you ever lost someone close to you? Regardless of how they die, it's sad to lose someone you love.

They only fear because their faith is not genuine.

they fucking know better!

It is not individual fear it is social fear.

It's grief, and sadness at our loss.

If I can remember correctly, when you have a religion which promises of a supremely wonderful afterlife, unless you also instill in your followers a lot of very strong prohibitions against taking their own lives or making it easy for others to take theirs, you'll end up with too many people dying to perpetuate your religion.

Eternal paradise is waiting for us, but "we" don't get to pick when to go. Even though a hundred years ago, Terri would have died 5 minutes after her heart attack, and only through modern medical intervention did her body live as long as it did. You tell me who's subverting "god's will."

Because it is in the thinking of the person in life. It's not so much fear of death, as sadness over the loss.

Even with the pope, I get nostalgic for when I was 9, and he was selected and watching it on television (we were Catholic). When I was in toronto in 85, he was in Canada, and just remembering my own youth...and how quickly time passes.

When my grandfather died it was nostalgia over him and I spending time together when I was a child. It hasn't anything to do with fear of his death or fear of him not getting a "spot"...it was sadness over not getting to pick up the phone for a chat anymore. The end of an era. The dying of history. That sort of thing.

I think sometimes those emotions get misrepresented here. :hi:

Before I was born, I seemed to be
Contented with being non-be-able;
So after I'm gone, it seems to me
My lot should be not less agreeable!

...because I KNOW you forgive my irreverence...

If you look at what the Bible says, it seems to be suggested that there is no going to heaven until the Last Judgment when people are finally called out of the ground and restored to their bodies. I'm sure you have noticed that Jesus has not returned and called anyone else from the grave since the time of Lazarus and Himself. So meanwhile people are not in heaven with God, they're in the ground with the worms. The Old Testament is even less cheerful. It has more hints of those old-time ideas of the afterlife either being a dark hole in the center of the earth or pretty much maybe not existing at all.

This life and making this life better through magic, having a faith to clutch onto, etc. are what religion are really all about. The afterlife claims seem to be a pretty late addition that everyone pays lip service to and no one really believes.

Down through the centuries, church leaders have argued back and forth about this, but while a good face is put on the matter for the public consumption (and for purposes of social control), as far as I know it is open to question whether going directly to heaven after death really occurs or whether it is a heresy and a misreading of the Bible.

So let people mourn. No one knows where they go when they die. Jesus might not come back for another two thousand years and raise the Pope to his side at the table.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

I believe that life does go on after the earthly vessel is abandoned. And I'm speaking with my heart of hearts.

I believe, that my dearest friend (and avowed Atheist) will someday meet me there...because true goodness is rewarded. Sorry our ideas don't mesh, but that is the wonderful thing about humanity. That we are all allowed our own beliefs.

It's easy to judge.

see my poem above, you sweet dreamer, you!

My comment was meant to be about church doctrine. I don't think what we believe as private individuals has much to do with official church doctrines. I am a Presbyterian. Supposedly a key element of doctrine is the concept of the Elect -- that God has known who will be saved from the beginning of time (since He is all-knowing) and that nothing we do will change what is already pre-determined.

I think you would be VERY hard-pressed to find a Presbyterian who actually believes this. I'd say a good majority are actually unaware of it. (Although I'm aware of and have spoken to fundamnentalists who still adhere to this doctrine, even claiming that God has numbered us, so that only 144,000 will be saved or some such magic number like that.)

My point is that there is shockingly little evidence in a literal reading of the Bible to support any belief that a dead person will immediately go to Heaven to be with God. This is why the Catholic Church can hold for so many centuries that Purgatory exists.

I don't think we can or should assume that all Catholics believe that at the instant of death, they are re-united with God. These things take time. And I think the Bible supports that position, actually.

My point is...no one KNOWS that they are instantly going to God when they die. Not even the Pope.

Grief and fear in the face of the uncertain is a reasonable reaction.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

The evangelicals. Most are well intentioned and very poorly informed. It's easy to take a moral stand when YOU don't have to do anything.....or know anything. It's like getting to wear the uniform without earning the badges.....and it's sad, when so many living souls here and around the world are ignored in their suffering.

:hi:

The Pope let thousands upon thousands of children be raped and molested by men under his service.

If God doesn't punish him for that, then God just doesn't punish people. Period.

Without really doing anything about it. I'm not driving down to the inner cities on a daily basis to save our youth. I don't adopt abandoned babies. I admit, the most I do is rail against a system that allows this to happen, or write a LTTE. I could do more. We all could.

While I am not a practicing Catholic, everyone has made mistakes. And forgiveness is part of the whole process. :hi:

after it was shown the Bishop relocated known child rapists from parish to parish. That deserves forgiveness? Wow, I would think the Bishop would be excommunicated, not given a promotion.

on mistakes, I think everyone would be in a bit of trouble. I'm not saying the Pope was perfect. I can't judge anyone on those terms. I, myself, would not want to be judged solely on things I did that may have been wrong.

:hi:

away the wrong. But, holding someone for their actions forever just doesn't fit me either. Sorry to disagree.

I think most people who "believe" in life after death really have their doubt's. Given what I know about their dogma I would have my doubts too.

Some people are just not OK with death. I don't like it but I am sure it is not meant for us to know what happens after we die. I think people should focus on making a good life here and that is why these death cults are so dangerous. They take the focus off living and put it on the dogma of death.

I look at it like this. If God wanted me to worry about that stuff he would give me the intelligence to understand it. If there is a god he gave us a brain. Why some decide not to use it is not something I can explain other than by saying people are afraid to die so a story about living forever is going to please a lot of frightened people.

I don't want to die anymore than any other person but I don't think it helps to go through life with that kind of thing in your subconscious have IMHO become a much more caring and understanding person since I have shrugged of the dogma I was raised with.

I don't think it's about death. It's about the fact that they didn't get what they wanted. The weeping and wailing was much the same as the weeping and wailing after Roy's Rock was removed from the courthouse.

they still act as if they WERE their bodies. They weep and moan over the BODY of their loved one as if something were actually lost. All people who truly believe understand that the soul (or whatever one calls that intelligent consciousness that inabits the body temporarily, in order to interact on this earthly plane)is immutable and part of the greater consciousness. It's like crying over your pay envelope after you have cashed the check. Makes no sense.

Woof's $.02

It has to do with missing that person. Who they were and the times they had together and will miss having in the future.

I have NEVER heard of anyone mourning the actual "body"?????

No one was protesting the movement of Terri Schiavo's soul. They were screaming to keep her body alive. It's hypocrisy.

The Catholics were protesting the denial of hydration and nutrition, which we view as ordinary, humane medical care. I don't know what the others were protesting, since I am not one of them.

MOST catholics I know were NOT protesting. MOST catholics I know sided with Mr. Schiavo.

Nice try.

Do you have to be retested every few years to keep up on the "pronouncements"?

Here is a snip of the CHA's view of tube feeding BEFORE TERRI, or BT, if you will.

Of course, this is from 1993, well before the current Terri era.



CATHOLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION (CHA)
4455 Woodson Road
St. Louis, MO 63134-0889

(314) 427-2500

Organizational overview: The CHA, founded in 1915, serves as the professional association for Catholic hospitals, extended care facilities, and health care systems in the United States. With 1200 member organizations, the CHA is the largest association of not-for-profit health care facilities in the country. After several task forces of theologians, clergy, health care givers and ethicists deliberated over how suffering, pain management, and the dying process should be viewed in light of the Catholic tradition, the CHA issued a definitive statement on the subject entitled Care of the Dying, A Catholic Perspective.

Position on tube feeding at the end of life

he familiar terms 'ordinary' and extraordinary' can be very misleading when explaining the substance of this teaching. . . . The Vatican Declaration on Euthanasia has recognized the ambiguity of these terms and suggests that we might more effectively refer to “proportionate” and “disproportionate” treatment. . . . The moral focus is not on the category of disease, the state of medical science, the type of treatment itself, or whether the treatment is simple, customary, non-invasive, or inexpensive. Rather, the true ethical considerations focus on the proportion between the benefit the patient would be able to appreciate from the treatment and the burden the patient would endure. For this reason, the principle is sometimes referred to as the burden/benefit principle. To make proper use of this moral principle, we need to measure the proportionate benefits and burdens for each particular patient, and from the patient's perspective. . . in order to determine whether provides a benefit proportionate to the burden the patient will have to bear. If the reasonably foreseen benefits to that patient (such as cure, reduced pain, restored consciousness and bodily functions) outweigh the burdens to the patient or to others, then the treatment is morally obligatory. But the treatment is not obligatory if it would be disproportionately burdensome or futile. . . . A treatment is futile when it offers no probable hope of success to restore the patient to a state of reasonable well-being (CHA 1993: 48-49).

he burden/benefit principle makes no moral distinction between withholding or withdrawing life sustaining treatment (whether it be a mechanical respirator, a cardiac pace-maker, a renal dialysis machine, antibiotics, or medically dispensed nutrition and hydration) when its use is futile or would produce burdens disproportionate to the benefits the patient could appreciate (CHA 1993: 49).

Encyclicals are Church teaching, btw...

It is so hard to keep up with these encyclicals.....

It was OK in '93, but its MURDER now?

Tough keepin up!

Ignorance about official Church teaching has muddied this whole debate...

"official"

Others in the Church are generally free to saywhat they want, but not teach what they want.

then what?

Evolution in the Church's teachings aren't in the least novel.

I can only hope that I have a bit of time to say goodbye, but we all have to move on .. there are others "in line" for our place :)

and truthfully, life's not all THAT much fun :)

The faithful have no fears for the Pope's soul. They are sorry for themselves, because they love him, and he is leaving them.

Is that so hard to understand?

It's simple, human grief.

:thumbsup:

when my dad and my grandmother passed away. I will no longer see them, talk with them, and quite frankly, I miss them with all my heart.

I'm surprised that normal human grief is so hard to understand. Also, the pope is the leader of the Catholic Church, he is their "father" in a sense. I completely "get" why they are so saddened by his impending death.

Peace,
Ann Arbor

Nor is it the point of my question.

Of course they grieve. Non-religious types grieve as well. But one would think those who are certain their loved one is going to meet their God soon would be slightly less dismayed than those who don't have that faith. All I see are large groups of people looking like their world is crumbling.

As it was written in 1 Thessalonians, "I would not have you ignorant, concerning those who are asleep in the Lord, so that you grieve not as do those who have no hope....".

We grieve as humans who have lost someone we love, but our grief is not mixed with despair.

Peace.

I think I'm not asking the question right.

I of course understand that there is grief. That's perfectly expected. I think what I don't really get is WHY there is grief. It's not the behaviour I'm questioning, it's the mindset.

I would think a person of rock-steady faith would have more of a...I hesitate to say 'celebratory'...but something like maybe 'peaceful' reaction to the passing of a loved one.

Does that make any better sense? :shrug:

We will rejoice for him, but grieve for our own loss.

:hi:

"one would think those who are certain their loved one is going to meet their God soon would be slightly less dismayed than those who don't have that faith"

Why would one? Grief is universal, and a healthy part of letting go of a loved one, whether one has faith or not.

If the Pope were fearing his own death, now that would be something. That Catholics are acting human at his passing is not an indictment of their faith.

She said preparing for death after a long life (or illness) was like being 9 months pregnant. You are afraid of the pain, the change in your life, the new challenges, but at some point, you still look forward to not being pregnant, even with the uncertainly and danger.

(Keep in mind, this woman had all 6 children delivered at home by a midwife - as did all of her contemporaries - Childbirth was a genuinely dangerous thing to consider.)

This is the same woman who was a sincerely devout Christian all her life, but worried terribly when my mother couldn't seem to reconcile herself to the Church and therefore with God - a very important relationship to my great grandma. When my mother converted to Judaism, her reaction was "thank God you've found a path". She also encouraged mom's research into Budd ism, Native American spirituality, etc.

(This is also the woman who's famous advice to me on my wedding day was "It doesn't matter where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home.")

She said she was a little afraid of death because she didn't really know what would happen, but she had faith and hope as well. Her passing was very peaceful in the end and her funeral was a celebration of the life of a very wise woman.

You are lucky to have had time with her! (And she with you.)

I'm copying those words and keeping in my collection of wise sayings.

Without it, you are forced to accept that this is it.

Me, I'm not in any real camp on this, but I do think that radical religious stances on death tend to be made out of fear of oblivion, but that's just me.

having a full life in THIS world is not enough. To me, of course "this is it" - why is that so horrible? Why do some people need so badly to believe in an afterlife? I feel very satisfied and grateful to be living in the here and now and I really don't need to believe my soul will somehow continue to exist after my death. To me, it feels natural and right to know my time on earth is finite, just like every other living thing on this planet. That knowledge, rather than filling me with fear, simply energizes me to live the most fulfilling life possible with the time I have.

I understand that the death of a loved one is a painful, difficult thing to cope with - I lost both of my parents over the last couple of years, and it hurt like hell to let them go - but it just seems to me that even with its sad parts, life is so great all by itself that needing more after I die would feel wrong and greedy somehow. I think if more people opened their eyes to the wonders before them and really made THIS life count, they wouldn't be so preoccupied with what is going to happen to them when they die.

I remember being horrified at the concept of the eternal soul when I first heard about it as a child. Aside from wrapping my brain around the no body part, I just couldn't imagine what a disembodied spirit would do all day long! hahaha To my childlike mind, it sounded like an eternal sentence of boredom. And even now, as I'm entering middle age, I'm basically scratching my head and thinking, what in the world would I want to do that for??? I don't need to be promised all sorts of riches and whatnot in an afterlife - all I need is to feel that I made good use of the life I was given and die with no regrets.

Here is a poem I posted above:

SMALL COMFORTS by Yip Harburg

Before I was born, I seemed to be
Contented with being non-be-able;
So after I'm gone, it seems to me
My lot should be not less agreeable.

And some of them cling to the promise of an afterlife as a way to avoid that acceptance.

Personally, I'm a bet hedger. I'm going to live my life like it's all I've got, but morally enough that I might be able to enjoy an afterlife should it be forthcoming.

:7

They will miss him and they are sad. Even a death that comes after long suffering reminds the survivors of when the deceased was strong & vital--& the survivors were much younger, too.

Some of their prayers may be for an easy passage to the next world. Tibetan Buddhists read from the Book of the Dead for the same reason--although their afterlives are quite different.

The circus that accompanied the late Mrs. Schiavo's passing was not quite the same.

what they say they believe, shouldn't the demonstration for Terri Schiavo have been a celebration that she was leaving the confines of her defective, earthly shell to go meet God? I'm an atheist and expect to turn to compost when I die, but I have to wonder why faith doesn't seem so wonderful when death is imminent. I thought the point of it all was to get to heaven, a fact more apparent by the day as so many of them seem to have forgotten the part about doing the work of Jesus - feeding the poor, nursing the sick and other less politicized tasks.

That comes first and foremost. Sorry. That's just the way it is. You miss the person in death, you mourn the loss. You find comfort in thinking of them in heaven. Why is this so hard to understand? Even if you don't believe, the simple understanding of the loss of a loved one transcends religious beliefs. :shrug:

I've had my share of losses, starting with my mother when I was 8 years old. My family drops like flies. Other than my husband, I have 1 living relative. I was referring to examples like the strangers - and, for all we know, hired strangers - who kept vigil outside Terri Schiavo's hospice. They were not mourning a grandfather or a grandmother. They wouldn't miss Terri. They should have been happy she was going to heaven if that's what they truly believe.

To Catholics, he is our Holy Father. There is no comparison to Terri Sciavo, although many in the media tried to make it so. As for the people standing outside her hospice, they had the right to be there, although I didn't understand them.

Church teaches them. Terri Schiavo is another story altogether. :hi:

Trusting in God enough to expect heaven means giving up control, which is hard. Especially for people who try so very hard to control themselves and everyone around them.

:eyes:

I know that I am still afraid, that I do not trust God that much to be sure of heaven yet. I just figured it would be hard for people who like having control, as well. *shrug* Not trying to offend, or restart the religion flamewars.

Most of us, I think, are saddened without being fearful. As for myself, I have no fear for Karol Wotylja, or for my Church.

Peace.

and she told me that the people that have the hardest time with their own death are Christians. She said they positively have anxiety attacks, along with all the weeping and wailing.

She said that the people who seem to have the easiest time are atheists. Her thought is that Christians aren't sure they are right - after all, there are a lot of religions in the world. They're afraid they've backed the wrong horse.

Atheists, on the other hand, don't believe in an afterlife and just accept death as a part of life. Of course, they don't want to go, but they accept it and are at peace with it.

deals with the death of a loved one...how society deals with the death of a public figure...these two things are inherently different. When I've lost family and friends, I've wept and felt grief for myself and the others affected by the loss.
But the deaths of Lennon, Belushi, Diana...these are people we don't know personally, but the represent something to us. Their passing is confirmation that ALL things pass away. There will be no more Abbey Road, No more Bumble Bees, the people we were when we saw a fairy tale come true no longer exist...we have moved on.
As for the Schaivo circus, their grief appears to be for the loss of one more battle. It is about the ineffectual nature of their protest and profound dissapointment that God didn't intervene as they felt certain he would.

Sorry so long.

Did you want to add any factual basis to your argument?

Opposed to abortion, but in favor of the death penalty.
In favor of using deadly force to spread democracy.
And in favor of the Rapture, where of course they hope they get a special place while the rest of us perish.

The Church opposed the use of force in Iraq, the Church does not favor the Rapture. Get your Christians straight; I'm tired of being lumped in with the nuts.

:thumbsup:

if you're not "uber-faithful" then no-one here is refering to you.

To be totally honest.....It's about me and my feelings, no one else's. Simply put it's selfishness on my part.

Death does not frighten me I think a natural ending can be a beautiful and wondrous passage after a long full life just as the birth of new life is beautiful and wondrous. However death is certainly something I don't enjoy dealing with either.

Death is something we all will experience. But admittedly I can be a selfish being at times when it comes to losing a loved one, I want them to stay here with me damnit and that's selfish of me, isn't it? Doesn't that make it in some way more about me rather than the one who is lying there dying? And doesn't "societies message" in general look down in shame upon such self-centered selfishness?

I think that if most people were more honest with themselves they'd perhaps realize that it's, in part, selfishness on their part. They don't want to lose someone and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way either, it's a human thing. Losing someone hurts and no one wants to feel a loss they know will be personally painful.

Yet we are suppose to avoid and deny any feelings that are perceived as "negative" or "shameful," like selfishness, much less admit to anyone that that's how we honestly feel. We are raised and taught that to be "selfish" is a bad thing so any degree of selfishness anywhere on that broad spectrum is always a bad thing.

I can be a selfish person and I feel no quilt, no shame in admitting it, feeling it and saying so. That's just being honest with myself :-)

0.02

I know death, I've had death in my family. But I never saw anyone in my family at those times get nearly as distraught over the death of a loved ones as most Christians and (I guess) Catholics get.

I would think that since they have this faith, faith that there is a heaven and there is a God, that it would make it easier. :shrug:

Mrs. Schiavo and the Pope.

People are mourning the impending death of the Holy Father because he was an influential man with a good heart and voice for peace. Plus, I think many of us are concerned with what his predecessor will be like.

:)

the folks passing in the last week were all in stages of life that were not hard to forfiet for some relief. The physical body is a prison for us all eventually.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

I'm sad because the world is losing a good man. I believe he is going to be with God, which is obviously a wonderful thing, but I personally most fear who the next person will be.

I accept that there are some people on here who were not happy with JPII's papacy in the least, and that is their opinion, but I'm pretty sure that once the next guy shows up, you will be begging for John Paul II back.

I worry because I'm feeling more and more distanced from a faith that was once so liberal and progressive.

Over 1500 and counting.

But I am distraught that you took "you drive fast, I'll do the drugs" out of your sig line. :(

We have to learn to let go... :hug:

Fellowship is dificult with the current state of Christianity.

I pray alone in the woods or on the trout stream. I feel much closer to God there than sitting in a pew next to some hypocritical nut job.

That's simple enough.

:hi:

nt