Your opinion of "SCABs"...?

Your opinion of "SCABs"...?

Dictionary.com

1. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.
2. A person hired to replace a striking worker.

"SCABS" the movie with Bill Murray?

Not a bad song.

Great song.

a case by case situation depending on why the workers are striking, what they are asking for and what they already have.

Would you consider undocumented workers scabs?

I think they are undercutting our unions with labor that can totally be abused and works w/o OSHA.
I know one company that used to call immigration every time he had to pay his Mexican employees.

Illegals are part of the anti-union forces, but they aren't SCABS.
Not by a long shot.

Undocumented workers are not scabs. But, that is how the bosses would citizens to view such workers. The labor movement needs to organize and unite all workers, including those without proper papers.

but theyre not pieces of shit

VERY negative

I cannot fault someone for taking a job when an employer needs someone to fill it simply because it means replacing a unionized worker or crossing one's own picket line. Mouths need feeding, rent has to be paid, and one cannot live on principle.

and if employers are able to play one worker off against another eventually you end up with abominable rates of pay and workplace standards.

stand together or fall alone - scabs fuck things up for everyone, happy to call them pieces of shit, you DON'T cross picket lines.

The problem is that scab labor is not going to benefit from the union's victories, because they are typically not part of the union. So, they are not part of the "together."

If a poor family's primary wage earner needs a job, I can't fault him or her from crossing a picket line -- but I can fault them for forsaking their family.

non-unionized workers do benefit from organized labors victories. The 8-hour day, overtime pay, social security, workers comp, unemployment insurance. My list could go on and on. Take a look at the average pay for workers in a state like Florida, with a small unionized work force, then take a look at the average pay in a state like Michigan and tell me non-organized labor does not benefit.

I do fault any lackey and lickspittle of the bosses that would cross a picket line and betray their class. I don't care what their circumstances are.

Death to Scabs!

of those gains.

99% agreement with you two gun sid.

I don't wish death on people for any reason, certainly not shortsightedness.

if they want better wages and conditions they should unionise not scab and undercut other workers trying to improve their lot - union gains anywhere have an effect across the board.

when you are out of work and hungry.

and destroy the union's power to see workers get decent wages and conditions?

if you accept the "hungry" argument for scabbing then I assume you'd have no problem with your boss sacking you because he's found someone in the third world who'll do your job for less than a dollar an hour?

maybe no.

It depends on the situation.

As I said below. If its between scabing and letting my kids go hungry..I'll cross that picket line and never look back.

Btw, being hungry isnt just an argument if you are really hungry.

if everyone did that you're kids would go hungry regardless of how many hours you worked because your boss could pay your starvation wages, your kids would have to go and work in factories where the boss chains them in and doesn't buy fire alarms because there's no pesky unions around anymore

welcome to reality.

I feel no need to apologize for providing for my family.

Of course neither of us are in the situation we are discussing, but if I were my family would take priority over some union which I have no association with

If everyone back in the days of the real labor wars thought as you do now you WOULD likely be in the situation you refer to. Solidarity amongst workers, union and non, is what bought us the protections and wages we have today. Failing to remember that and continuing to stand up for those rights means losing them.

And because of them it appears we're all going to be doomed to repeat it.
Fuck scabs and their apologists, who are not even noticing our rapid regression to the bad old days.

is that many people did think as I did.

Do you really believe nobody got hungry and crossed picket lines back then? Or that fathers got tired of watching their children wither away and crossed a picket line to feed them?

As I've said before, being hungry and starving is not "thinking", nor is it an argument. it just is.

Also, im not such an egomaniac that I believe that my labor is enough to bring down the entire union movement.

Whats in it for me, screw you. I will worry about mine who cares about yours

being hungry is reality.

Helping the supression of the rights of workers to obtain decent wages and working conditions that translate to better wages and working conditions for all. Do you seriously beleive there would even BE vacations, a 40 hr workweek, overtime, health benifits or pensions without unions. Oh there would be for upper mangagement but would there be for workers like YOU? NO there wouldnt be. So you benifit from the sacrifices of union movements of the past and gladly tell us you would cut their throats today. As I said, I will get mine screw you. That is like the antithesis of a decent progressive attitude

:yourock:

this is getting funny now.

you give the hypothetical me far 2 much credit.

if the hypothetical me were watching my children starve, I doubt that I would destroy the union movement by performing some menial task....nor would I be worrying about a 40hr week.

his argument is more "screw you, my kids aren't going to starve over your beliefs".

completely understandable, IMHO..

Any father whose children are starving after 2 or 3 weeks without a paycheck is not a very good father. IMHO

a decent father would do what he has to do to feed them. Even if that means crossing a picket line.

The "feed your family" has been debunked in this thread already.

If you look closely I was the one who started that discussion..and its only debunked in the minds of pollyannas.

Yea, you're right. NOBODY ever goes hungry, nobody is ever unemployed, nobody is ever desperate and nobody has been forced to do things they don't want to do to survive.

its just a happy wonderful world.

/sarcasm off

Do you support the killing of bald eagles?










"Oh! But wait Lincoln, what if a band of rogue bald eagles are attacking your children, pecking out their eyes and gobbling on their entrails? Would you support killing one then one then Lincoln? Why do you hate your children Lincoln?




That is how ridiculously weak your "feed the children" straw man argument is.




You don't need to tell me the woes of working folks in this country. I know there pain and work to help them every day. But for those who are hurting today I say this. If I seek to better working conditions for all Americans through collective bargaining starting tomorrow, You only strengthen the corporate raiders and robber barons and hurt other families INCLUDING your own by crossing the picket lines I have set up.

Taste like chicken.

Sorry. you have failed to persuade me.

Freeloading off paying members perhaps?

Just like the freeloaders in this "right to work for less state" of IA!

Give that man an assist!

I can take a jab here and then.

"I cant win this argument, so I'll just make a cheap shot instead"

hmmmmmm

ok..you're on a roll..Im getting out of your way :)

Im actually a big union supporter and come from a union family. But I also come from a family that likes to argue :)

We come from the same family

You act as though those are the only two choices. Unemployment even welfare is preferrable to crossing a picket line. Much less getting a different job even if it pays less. There may be little dignity in welfare but what dignity is there in crossing a picket line? The point is solidarity with workers, with those on the right side. As Joe Kenehan said in Matewan, theres only two kinds of people that counts those that work and those that dont. You cross a picket line you are stabbing those that work in the back and carrying water for those that only own

A person who sees to his family first deserves everyone's admiration!

are only aiding the corporate robber barons and HURTING their families in the long run.

My family is the PRIMARY reason I work union.

Fuck your family, let them starve!!! Have to support unionized labor!

Is that better?

Because the father is bad the children should starve all in the name of unionization? Let me put it this way... If your family was starving, despite the circumstances that got your family to that point, you would not cross a picket-line in order to provide relief to your spouse and children? It's a simple yes/no question.

Bale Hay, Shovel Shit, Detassle Corn, Deliver Papers, Wait Tables, Shovel Snow, Mow Lawns, ETC. All of which I have done without complaint at various stages of my life.

Your straw man argument is based on a situation that is very unlikely to ever happen. (That crossing a picket line is the ONLY choice in town to provide for your family)

There is no excuse for crossing a picket line. EVER

line to come into play. It's not quite black and white, is it? I'm sorry, my family comes first. That's just me, though - I'm not trying to speak for everyone else.

where crossing a picket line was the only option you had to feed your family. If you can not, do not use it to support your argument.

Seems pretty blank and white to me?

that crossing a picket line was necessary. My contention is that if someone did cross a picket line in order to provide for their family, I could understand that and would find it an acceptable reason. And on the other hand, I'd admit that someone that crosses a picket line in order to buy a cool car or some other materialistic and superficial item, would be a piece of shit. I'm just saying polls are black and white but life isn't.

To people that keep making strawman arguments

Many scabs do benefit, those who are non union employees of the company and are permanent. will get the same benefits as the strikers. If they stayed at the wages they agreed to work for by themselves, you would find fewerscabs. That is what makes them so detestable, the fact that they share thebenefits fought for by others. They should be locked in to their previous conditions.

wages are not divided by union or nonunion.

when the union negotiates higher wages, better benefits, a better workplace environment, All employees get them.

it's those ever so "american" sounding RIGHT TO WORK states. you have heard of them, haven't you.

it means that your pay CAN NOT be docked for union dues unless you agree to it, but you DO GET all the benefits the union negotiates.

so, why pay dues, if you are gonna get the benefits anyway.

cool, huh?

scabs can also be called parasites. they live off of what others have earned.

how strong Unions once were. How they provided the average American worker with "living" wages.

I grew up in a Union household, respected and was thankful for the wages and benefits Union contracts provided. I also remember struggling through many Strikes, with little or no food on the table...while Union contracts were being haggled over. But that was part of the process.

Since Union-busting, that particular "Industry" has been outsourced to foreign countries. The mills have closed, the towns are literally ghost-towns. THAT is the Reagan/Bush/"Scab" legacy... and its devastating effects have been repeated again and again throughout this country and throughout nearly all our Nation's once "functioning" proudly-Unionized industries.

in a Union family. My grandad started the first Teamsters chapter in Missouri in 1922. Meetings were held in the barn as my dad, all of 9, laid on the roof, watching for infiltrators.

I remember strike times, also. They always seemed to happen during the holidays. (what was up with THAT =? ) We could tell when dad was on strike 'cuz we would have "poor old man's" potato soup, made with water, as opposed to prosperous times when we would have "rich old man's" made with milk. Just one fond memory of many.

The union allowed my dad and mom to raise 6 kids with all needs met and the ability to put us all through college. Try THAT today!

While I disagree with Scabbing, though, I do not feel them to be "pieces of sh*t".

Jenn

:grr::grr::grr::grr::puke::argh:

I suggest adding ":nuke:"

a Local and I ran an UFCW informational picket line for 14 months.
Both my wife and myself have been part of organizing campaigns and she was a Steward.

So, as far as any suggestions from you go, I'll pass.
Are you a small business owner?

You can't find a job where workers are on strike?

Perhaps you really haven't looked very hard.

That's a really lame excuse for crossing picketlines and taking the food out of the mouths of those who have been forced to strike in defense of their jobs and living standards.

nt

in fact it's actually closer in real terms to 17% still wouldn't ever cross a picket line.

about the homeless.

///Perhaps you really haven't looked very hard.//

Understanding the motivation is one thing, but defending it as ethical because of that motivation... Does getting food on the table justify any action?

down and outers who have no other chance at a job. the real scabs are the people who try to break the unions by hiring those who are willing to do anything to feed themselves or their families. i can`t blame them but i sure in the hell don`t like them...ex steelworker and iam member

cross the picket line.

It's not like SCABS are enemies released by the right. They are poor people looking for a freakin' job. Blame the company, not the SCABs

...Union busting Security companies:

<snip>

Unions
The New Face of Unionbusting
by David Bacon
Part 3
The Blood and Guts Strikebreakers

The classic unionbusting strategy for breaking already-organized unions received its blessing from the Reagan administration in its handling of the PATCO strike in 1981. Then the strategy was baptized in fire in 1984 in the bitter copper miners strike in Arizona, at Phelps-Dodge. Joe Uehlein says the mine strike was a watershed for unionbusting. "It was really the start of the modern process of permanent replacement of strikers by scabs," he says. "It was a major turning point, and we still haven't, as a movement, understood its impact, much less recovered from it."

Since Phelps-Dodge, the list of companies where that strategy has been used is a roll-call of the major class battles of the 1980s and90s - Continental Airlines, Eastern Airlines, International Paper, Caterpillar, Hormel, Watsonville Canning and Frozen Foods, Diamond Walnut, Pittston, Wheeling-Pittsburg, USX, and many others. Today that war is being fought in the streets of Detroit, in front of the offices of the Detroit News and Free Press, and at their joint printing plant in suburban Sterling Heights.

Not all of these battles have been won by employers, but the pattern of attack is basically the same.

<more>
<link> http://dbacon.igc.org/Unions/02ubust3.htm

in a right to work state! Unions are required to represent them, even when they don't pay dues... Only time I don't run the other way is when the pieces of shit cross the picket line.

I wonder how many of those who hate scabs are preferentially buying union-made products. That would, of course, rule out virtually everything made in China. How many scab haters are driving UAW-made cars? Just a thought.

As some of the other posters earlier declared, hating all scabs is pretty much the same as hating all (fill_in_the_blank). Hate is so easy; that's what makes it a vice.

You have to look at the individual situation, and apply critical thinking, before judgment. Anything else is, by definition, prejudice.

some products it's not possible but I do pay considerably more to buy products made with union labour (not so easy now that Australia has bugger all manufacturing left)

"hating" scabs is not like hating all XY or Z, it's deploring someone's behaviour - all scabs ARE scabs THAT's what's hated - their actions nothing else

I agree that hating what scabs do is different from hating scabs - a critical distinction.

However, in practice, it's nearly impossible for most people to separate the object of their emotions. Hate is a two-by-four, not a scalpel.

BTW, by default I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the union side in a dispute, but I wouldn't give the union side automatic blanket approval. Especially in this era of globalization, labor disputes have become complex beasts indeed and require judgment with an open mind.

Peace.

I meant that it's not comparable to say "I hate asians" "I hate gay people" which is what I think you were getting at.

I make judgements about people on their behaviour - if they scab they're selfish, ignorant about labour history and parasites. I don't just hate their behaviour, I hate them.

Well, you still seem like a thoughtful person. :-)

However, I now part company with you over the uniform application of hatred. Most scabs suck. But to give blanket approval up front to the union position is to invite corruption. Accountability is what keeps any group of people promoting self-interest from crossing the line into corruption. Unions have a vital role in securing a decent life for their members, and here in Michigan, where I live, organized labor's accomplishments are a source of deep pride. But that does not make unions automatically above reproach. Labor history is filled with serious ugliness on both sides.

BTW, I am a union member (Writer's Guild). Several years ago, another WG member attempted to take credit for a documentary I developed and wrote, and I went to the union with the open-and-shut evidence. Instead of swift justice I got a big runaround. Turned out the producer had better friends at union HQ than I did; so much for union concern for the working man. It was only when I threatened to turn the details over to outside scrutiny that I got any traction, and even then, it was at cost of having *my* name smeared as a troublemaker for the union.

Human nature knows no politics or class afiliation.

Peace.

labor.... almost nutt'n.

Maybe if you bought one we could keep making them.

Peace.

products made in countries that have labor laws and that regulate safety...

I pay much more for those goods but then again I believe that less is more and that if I do buy something...I buy it to last.

The player's union is being completely unrealistic, and damnit I want to see some hockey. So in this case I'll say they are a positive force, however in the other cases scabs are human garbage.

At times you cannot help but cross a picket line like when a whole city is on strike. But you try and avoid it if you can. And you don't let yourself get hired as a scab.

have been in the SDA (shop, distrubutive & allied employees) CEPU (Communications Electrical & PLumbing)the MEA (Media Entertainment & Arts Alliance) and now the HSU (Health Services Union) - all Oz unions btw.

my political views have changed a little round the edges over the years but I've always been union.

:hi:

my father was UAW and my grandfather was UMWA as was his father. Each generation did better than the last. Thank God for Unions. Solidarity Forever!

...the people at the factory were:

1. Paid poorly
2. Worked with cancer causing agents as well as lung damaging agents all day long...
3. Were viewed by upper management as peasants.

I was fresh out of college working as an engineer and I had to cross a picket line in order to keep my job...It really upset me because my father had been a union member all his life...but as my mom said..."you have to and your dad would understand"...

But...in this case they brought in SCABS and they had to live in the factory because they were fearful of being attacked if they were found out...so managers had to bring in their food and they slept in offices during the day....

To be honest, these guys didn't know what the hell they were doing and if anything it was just a way of management thumbing their nose at the workers ...kind of like..."nah nah...we found someone to do your job for you"...

The strike was settled when the plant manager made an absolute ass out of himself by attacking union members at their picket line...

Still those people didn't make enough money for the conditions they worked under and about two months later I was at a new job...

management ran over one of the picketers and then spent an absolute fortune spinning to the media that the picketers had "leapt" in front of the car - which is odd because we all heard the driver loudly yelling "get out the f##king way or I'll run you over" just before slamming his foot down.

my father would disown me if I crossed a picket line, he even bought me a present for not scabbing when I was a teenager and there a huge general strike - so I guess my views were formed by greed too! don't scab and get pressies!

the most digusting individual I have ever met...

I'm glad that his sight in the eye is all that he lost, but he should have known better. I'm not saying that I agree that he should have been shot, but those guys are fighting their companies for rights, wages and benefits for all the workers. Without the ability to strike, they will be working for minimum wage with outlandish safety hazards and little or no benefits. Neither they nor the scabs will want to work for the company if the unions are broken.

Im rather shocked that you defend someone who shot one of your family members.

personally, no job is worth murdering someone for.

it's the right to collectively bargain for decent standards that's worth fighting for.

if strike breakers aren't dealt with harshly then they're no point, do you think anyone would be put off from crossing the line if they were just politely asked to consider their fellow workers?

if they aren't forcefully discouraged then wages are driven down across the board - the only power a worker has is collective.

Sorry.. I just don't believe that the right to bargain justifys killing an innocent man.

btw, Im a worker to (as most of us are), and I have a hella more power than a borgish collective.

"Im a worker to (sic) (as most of us are), and I have a hella more power than a borgish collective."


HAHAHAHA :rofl:

the author of this particular subthread excuses the man who tried to kill his uncle.

here's a semi random link from google.

http://www.csvr.org.za/papers/papewgs.htm

Companies have hired union busting thugs to infiltrate picket lines to cause trouble. That, I have witnessed first hand.

Your link is pretty weak as well.

Over 300 labor leader and organizers have been executed in cetral america in the last few years.

Or ask the poster above about his uncle.

I don't dispute for a second that union busting thugs have done their share...FAR MORE than their share of violence.

Im saying that violence has been perpetuated by both sides and its totally inexcusable.

so your reaching into hyperbole again - if you think you have more power individually at work than you would collectively you're seriously deluded.

if the boss wants to sack you and know that your only reply is to say "please don't" while your lip trembles he'll do it, if he knows that doing that will mean everyone goes on strike in support of you he'll be a little more cautious

About 12 years ago, my father went on strike along with the rest of his union. The company's offer was pretty good, the union had new leadership that wanted to exercise that power.

After about a month, my dad was ready to cross the line and he wasn't alone. Thankfully the union settled before it came to that.

I'd cross a picket line in a heartbeat. And woe to anyone who tried to stop me.

There was a time I thought unions were the savior of working people, and in the past that may well have been true. More recently I have seen so much abuse and such, that I no longer feel that way. The other issue I have with unions is their bent for violence with relative impunity.

I might cross a line if I thought the job action was unjustified. NHL is a case in point, Hollywood stuff is another. I understand those who do to feed their families. Regardless, I am in a job that could never be organized, and places I go are not unionized.

Learn some union history before spouting crap.

"The other issue I have with unions is their bent for violence with relative impunity."

Complete uneducated rightwingtalkingpoint BS!

"and in the past that may well have been true"

The labor movement is the only reason you can now afford "the internets"!

and nothing done about it. Yes, the companies have done it in the past, but today its much more the purview of the union these days. Lets not forget about the organized crime influence as well.

I know much more about union history than you realize. The issue with most people is that they treat unions as a monolith, which is an error. The historical issues with coal miners are considerably different than GM and Ford or teachers. Each has their unique issues due to work and economic environments. Treating their issues in a similar fashion is one of the problems the unions have had historically.

Unions clearly brought about a more balanced workplace but many of their historical paradigms do not translate into portions of todays workforce where there is much less blue collar work. For example, the classic automotive style approach does not work particularly well with knowledge workers, nurses, or teachers.

Unions are not what they once were. An inability to adapt to the current labor markets, the willingness to use violence, and the mob connections have all contributed to their decline in numbers and in the public perception. They are also seriously out of touch with their members judging from endorsements vice reported voting patterns.

I would like to see them recover and again become vigorous, but it will take a rethinking of how they do things and some serious house cleaning.

Old St. Ronnie tried to prove the level of corruption, and the study found corporations were WAY more likely to be corrupt.

For someone who claims to know their Union history, you sure spout a bunch of RWTP nonsense.

but over the years I've really soured on them.

The 2 union jobs I had weren't made any better by the unions and maybe worse. All they did was to protect the lazy and incompetent. Seniority meant that no matter how hard you worked or how qualified you may have been you were screwed if you wanted to move up. You had to wait your turn.

And unions can be violent and not simply with regards to picket line crossers. Unions have a well deserved reputation for getting violent with political opposition from way back right up until the last election.

I remember in high school the teachers were on strike, there was no school, and some of us went up to the school to fish the pond behind it. Damn teachers, TEACHERS, hit the car with their signs because we wanted to get through. We were teens going fishing for Christ's sake. That was my introduction to union mentality and over the years unions haven't done anything positive to change my mind.

Think seniority isn't in play in non-union shops?

Think there aren't tons of lazy and incompetent in the management side?

Ads I have said in this thread and many others, prove the "well deserved violence" nonsense, or step off.

Most union shops have plenty of move ups that do not involve seniority. Go into management, maintenance, group leader, etc.

Disgusting.

it's bad enough hearing anyone say that but to hear a self proclaimed liberal say it is puke inducing

Than chat room tough guy talk? I have been a union member (United Transportation Union) for more than 28 years. I have a good life largely because I have a union job. Its outrageous that on a progressive chat site we have seven people who would call scabs freedom fighters, pathetic. Do you really think any serious progressive political movements can be effective without labor backing? Its the economics we all know that, if we cannot collectively demand, and force corporations to give us decent wages and benefits, its only a matter of time before we are eating dry bread and wishing we could afford health care. We are all in this together is the most important message that progressive politics has and what am I hearing, hey my family is more important than someone Else's, thats shameful

he call himself a liberal democrat?

all because sometimes strikes dont seem appropriate to you...

Classy, real progressive.

Including my spouse, and also my dad, who was one of the original people who tried to form a union at his previous place of employment. My dad was fired for it and had to go to court to get his job back. He's now a UAW member at a different place. So I totally understand why scabs suck.

Nonetheless, I live in an area where the *official* unemployment rate is around 10 percent and unofficially I know it's much higher. People here need work, period. The companies that hire scabs are the real enemy, not the people who cross the picket line, because the companies are pitting poor people against each other. That's totally wrong.

(edited to clarify something)

a corporation exists only to make a profit, that is it's ONLY purpose. they are acting in their OWN interests when they hire scab labour, scabs are working against their own interests.

it's no good getting a $5 an hour job if someone else can be convinced to do your job for $4.55, and then when times get a little bit more desperate someone else is willing to undercut that again...

Corporations were originally chartered for some particular benefit that couldn't be achieved otherwise, for a specific time period. The 'only exist to make a profit' is just as much rightwing bullshit as that anti-union crap was. Business also has a legal responsiblity to provide safe goods and service, provide a safe working place, not pollute or otherwise endanger the community, and live up to any labor contracts they've entered. These are just some of the laws that corporations agree to follow, when we the people agree to allow them to operate.

But if you want to go laizzes faire for a moment, a corporation's real purpose is to control price and production. First and foremost. That is how they guarantee a steady profit.

They take into account the 'stakeholder' not just the shareholder.

Stakeholders include, but are not limited to, shareholders, suppliers, workers, management, community, and customers.

The most successful companies do not just look at the bottom line. they look at their long term commitments to their stakeholders.

Resonsible Corporations do not mind working with unions. Corporations and unions both want the company to be prosperous and successful in the long term.

only if it doesn't cost them anything, "stakeholders'" interests may come into it but NOT if it is detrimental to the bottom line.

I used to do PR for a couple of the "best practice" companies who make a lot of noise about the "triple bottom line" but it doesn't actually change their ACTUAL bottom line, they will still shut down a productive factory and move offshore for a TINY increase in profits.

I worked for a company that talked the talk, but it was just that, talk.

They were a large 'small' company and have paid for their bad practices, and have since broken up.

I could go into details but it would turn into a rant, and you sound like you have heard and seen the stories before.

But people have to eat.

If I were unemployed and the choice was letting my kids go hungry or being a scab, I'll be a scab.

Its one thing for me to take a stand, its quite another to make my family go hungry for my stand.

but the scumbags who employ them to break strikes.

Scabs usually just need a job.

kicking scabs distracts you from the real fight.

Discourage them from taking the job if you want, but save all your energy and vitriol for the man.

TO AN EXTENT -

I am a health-care worker, and a union member. I have never been on strike, nor have I crossed a picket line.

My friend, who is an R.N., a "traveler" who works for an agency, was sent to a hospital by the agency to work because the nurses had gone on strike. He called me and said "I support the strike, but there are patients in there who have no one to take care of them. The ICU has no nurses. Those people are critically ill in there."

He decided to work, because the sick needed caregivers.

From a humanitarian standpoint, I supported his decision. If there is a life or death emergency, I think it might be justified. Otherwise, no.

And sometimes that life or death emergency is simply, "my children need to eat."

Life isn't black and white -- although it is often polled that way :)

I don't support the concept of scabbing just to make a buck, but in situations such as heath care or first responders, if those positions aren't manned, there can be grave and immediate repercussions in the form of patients losing their lives. I am a staunch liberal and supporter of unions, but first and foremost, my job is to care for the sick. So I do have a conflict here. It is important to me that innocent patients do not suffer because of a political conflict. Also, as you said, a parent would be hard pressed to come up with justification to not feed their kids. This is definitely a difficult issue. I don't support crossing picket lines overall, but can understand where there might be exceptions.

"You give me cheap labor, and I'll give you (I don't know what?)."

And there's this definite Neocon plan to inflame anti-immigrant sentiment WHILE they fully plan to keep cheap labor and strangle our unions. B@stards.

Again, a minority position, but it seems to me that undocumented workers are natural allies of progressives. We've both been sold out.

The Repukes are REALLY good at selling others out for their own gain.

union-busting SCABs are the crude left in the toilet bowl.:rant: :hurts: :puke:

if someone is very poor and trying to feed their family, well to those I would only seek something minor, say a broken leg or an arm. You know, to educate a fellow worker on proper behavior.

But those that specialize in strike breaking, like those that are employeed in companies that provide workers for companies locked in a struggle with dissatified labor, well those 'scabs' are beyond anyones ability to train. And for those, I wouldn't even think of trying to help with any education whatsoever.

People gots ta do what they gots ta do, so I'll try not to hate on a strikebreaker without knowing his entire story.

I reserve the Very Negative feelings for the employers who hire the scabs. *These* are the pieces of s--t, IMO.

:grr:

1. They're not familiar with the systems at the workplace.

2. See #1, adding that they're more liable to screw up.

3. They're not getting paid nearly as much so they're not going to CARE as much.

It's generally win-win unless Mr. Scabbypants is bucking the Union for his own sake. (and given how many unions choose not to maintain their power yet maintain their monthly dues that continue to go up, I'm going to say only that I don't know.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The Workers on the S. P. line to strike sent out a call;
But Casey Jones, the engineer, he wouldn't strike at all;
His boiler it was leaking, and its drivers on the bum,
And his engine and its bearings, they were all out of plumb.
Casey Jones kept his junk pile running;
Casey Jones was working double time;
Casey Jones got a wooden medal,
For being good and faithful on the S. P. line.
The workers said to Casey: "Won't you help us win this strike?"
But Casey said: "Let me alone, you'd better take a hike."
Then some one put a bunch of railroad ties across the track,
And Casey hit the river bottom with an awful crack.

Casey Jones hit the river bottom;
Casey Jones broke his blessed spine;
Casey Jones was an Angelino,
He took a trip to heaven on the S. P. line.
When Casey Jones got up to heaven, to the Pearly Gate,
He said: "I'm Casey Jones, the guy that pulled the S. P. freight."
"You're just the man," said Peter, "our musicians went on strike;
You can get a job a'scabbing any time you like."

Casey Jones got up to heaven;
Casey Jones was doing mighty fine;
Casey Jones went scabbing on the angels,
Just like he did to workers of the S. P. line.
They got together, and they said it wasn't fair,
For Casey Jones to go around a'scabbing everywhere.
The Angels' Union No. 23, they sure were there,
And they promptly fired Casey down the Golden Stairs.

Casey Jones went to Hell a'flying;
"Casey Jones," the Devil said, "Oh fine:
Casey Jones, get busy shovelling sulphur;
That's what you get for scabbing on the S. P. Line."

Kick

Scabs, what a quaint concept--when you could actually hate your friends and neighbors for taking away your job. Now you'd have to buy a plane ticket to India or Honduras in order to threaten them.

My dad was a the lowest-level foreman in a factory. Because he was technically management, he was not a union member. He was put to work on tasks normally reserved for union labor during the strike. If he had not, he would have been fired. Since he was paying a mortgage and feeding five mouths on 7 K a year (this was 1964), and the job market was very tight, not coming in was not an option.

Strikers tried to flip our car over in the factory parking lot, threw garbage at my dad and dumped garbage in our driveway, wrote SCAB on our mailbox, made obscene phone calls to my mother (these were mostly women, BTW), screamed "SCAB" and some bad words I didn't understand at me and my mother when we were out shopping. My father started carrying a loaded gun with him. We were in a small town, and knew all of these people who were doing this.

You know what? The plant moved most of its operations to a maquiladora in Juarez in the 80s, and finally shut down all of its US operations in the 90s. My dad was forced to retire in the mid-70s, topping out at a whopping salary of 12 K, with 50 bucks a month in pension. The union folk? Several people apologized to dad in later years, and many showed up to grieve for him at his funeral.

He was not a replacement worker. He was management.

They thought he was a scab...which means presto, he was one.

Sorry to hear about that. Hate is an ugly thing no matter who is doing the hating.

Like any organization, they can be flawed, but a world without them is, well, like most of the developing world right now.

another worker, who's family is staving.

A scab is scum, a piece of shit, who selfishly keeps wages and benefits and safety standards lower for everyone else.

Republicans count on selfish greedy scabs to think as they do. To stab his fellow worker in the back for self gain.

That's the union busting Reagan philosophy of the 80's, that the republicans have been perpetuating ever since and its been continuing with the same Bush republicans. Just take all you can get, me, me, me, fuck everyone else bullshit, that these shameless, sick republicans, like the pigman Limbaugh preach as a good thing for your fellow man and the American way.

Sick, greedy, conservatives, who can NEVER get enough and want more, more and more, slimy disgusting pigs!

:yourock:

who selfishly keep wages and benefits and safety standards lower for everyone else. Motherfuckers should let their children live in the street. It's their fault. </sarcasm>

Until labor unions recognize that all workers are potential allies, not enemies, management will continue to have an upper hand in this country. Union busting is easy when the union is focused on hating other workers. Your rhetoric is sad, just sad.

What is tiresome is the old "some folks just need to work" strawman.

Because we all know there's other ways beside actually working to provide for our families... :eyes:

We all know there are places to find work to provide for your family without crossing a picket line.

:eyes: :eyes:

no kidding, religious extremists and fascists take time to make usually. They are kids of religious extremists or they are recruited. People caught in cults have to take some manipulation over several days to start generally. The fascists just need to listen to hate radio for ten or so years.

A scab knows what he is doing and has to give it a lot of thought. They may be under the two points described above, but the decision to be a scab would be one of the few times they will be closest to reflecting themselves in a conscious decision making process. There is no cult leader standing over your shoulder telling you have to do it.

Making excuses for scabs by saying they are just trying to feed their families completely misses the point that that is EXACTLY what the strikers are doing, trying to take care of their families. It also ignores nor shows any respect for the experiences of the striker which lead to the strike. I mean it's kind of stupid, imho, to take a job from a place that the workers decided to take the strike step - something not done at the drop of a hat like Rush would lead you to believe in most case. By climbing over the strikers backs you are not just climbing over someone else's family, you're doing exactly what the management wants you to do, knife your fellow man in the back and keep their costs and YOU down. That is exactly what a scab does, knifes their fellow man and his family in the back.

The ten votes(as I post) saying scabs are really cool, I would hope the voters didn't understand the question. If someone ask me if there are trolls in the house, I can tell them yes, "Yes, ten for sure."

Scabs are the lowest of lows.


Just a side point, Pope John Paul II was a HUGE supporter of Unions. He considered unionizing a very important and basic human right.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/haywood/HAYWOOD.HTM

THE TRIAL OF WILLIAM "BIG BILL" HAYWOOD

The struggle between the Western Federation of Miners and the Western Mine Owners' Association at the turn of the twentieth century might well be called a "war." When the state of Idaho prosecuted William "Big Bill" Haywood in 1907 for ordering the assassination of former governor Frank Steunenberg, fifteen years of union bombings and murders, fifteen years of mine owner intimidation and greed, and fifteen years of government abuse of process and denials of liberties spilled into the national headlines. Featuring James McParland, America's most famous detective; Harry Orchard, America's most notorious mass murderer turned state's witness; Big Bill Haywood, America's most radical labor leader; and Clarence Darrow, America's most famous defense attorney, the Haywood trial ranks as one of the most fascinating criminal trials in history.

from Darrow's summation
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/haywood/HAY_SUMD.HTM

ON LABOR ORGANIZATIONS

Let me tell you, gentlemen, if you destroy the labor unions in this country, you destroy liberty when you strike the blow, and you would leave the poor bound and shackled and helpless to do the bidding of the rich . . . It would take this country back . . . to the time when there were masters and slaves.

I don't mean to tell this jury that labor organizations do no wrong. I know them too well for that. They do wrong often, and sometimes brutally; they are sometimes cruel; they are often unjust; they are frequently corrupt. . .But I am here to say that in a great cause these labor organizations, despised and weak and outlawed as they generally are, have stood for the poor, they have stood for the weak, they have stood for every human law that was ever placed upon the statute books. They stood for human life, they stood for the father who was bound down by his task, they stood for the wife, threatened to be taken from the home to work by his side, and they have stood for the little child who was also taken to work in their places--that the rich could grow richer still, and they have fought for the right of the little one, to give him a little of life, a little comfort while he is young. I don't care how many wrongs they committed, I don't care how many crimes these weak, rough, rugged, unlettered men who often know no other power but the brute force of their strong right arm, who find themselves bound and confined and impaired whichever way they turn, who look up and worship the god of might as the only god that they know--I don't care how often they fail, how many brutalities they are guilty of. I know their cause is just.

I hope that the trouble and the strife and the contention has been endured. Through brutality and bloodshed and crime has come the progress of the human race. I know they may be wrong in this battle or that, but in the great, long struggle they are right and they are eternally right, and that they are working for the poor and the weak. They are working to give more liberty to the man, and I want to say to you, gentlemen of the jury, you Idaho farmers removed from the trade unions, removed from the men who work in industrial affairs, I want to say that if it had not been for the trade unions of the world, for the trade unions of England, for the trade unions of Europe, the trade unions of America, you today would be serfs of Europe, instead of free men sitting upon a jury to try one of your peers. The cause of these men is right.

http://www.nd.edu/~observer/04242002/Viewpoint/7.html

Pope John Paul II has declared that a union "is indeed a mouthpiece for the struggle for social justice, for the just rights of working people in accordance with their individual professions" ("Laborem Exercens').


If you scab you knife your fellow man and HIS "starving" family in the back.

The Democrats should be stronger on this issue and the unions and the party needs to explain why sticking together and not crossing a picket line is more important toward a culture of life than posting the 10 commandments everywhere.

I can't really blame scabs for wanting to work if they really need the money. In this world there are worse things than being a scab.

It is really nothing more than a talking point that has been put out there to tug on peoples emotions.

#1 I do not believe it is the only gig in town.

#2 If they were jobbless and hungry prior to a collective bargaining action, by crossing a picket line they not only hurt the courageous union worker, in the long run they hurt their own family as well.

if they can't feed their families NOW

I can see why everyone here has a negative view on them, but realistically, these people need to support their families JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. Sure, there are less intrusive ways of doing so, but for some people other options may have run out ...

What IF no other jobs are available?

"Feed the family" is unrealistic and you know it.

Everyone needs to feed their families. Scabs aren't the only ones. People don't strike cause it sounds like a fun thing to do or they want a little time off. There is a good reason they walked off the job and it is deadly serious business.

Any worker who would cross a picket line deserves no respect and no understanding of his family situation. Fuck a bunch of scabs.

As the coal miners I knew in my childhood would say, "Death to Scabs!"

Here is the deal...Scabbing can be preventable during a strike unless the individual prefers to cross the picket line to make a statement, whatever that may be.

For union employees, by following the contract negotiation schedule and preparing for an eventual strike (that means for the most part, no income). For example, stocking up on non-perishable items, toiletries and the like months before the strike, curtailing savings on intangible items, and living below one's means. This is also published in union member newsletters....

Union members who anticipates strike and prepares for it, increases possibility the economic effect will be minimized for the period without income.

I do recall cases of individuals with extenuating circumstances (like a chronic medical conditions in the family) were allowed to cross picket lines, with protection from the union.

However, for those who are just making a political statement by crossing the line...well, those are scabs.