Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Whats a good book on learning basic tactics in debating?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:45 AM
Original message
Whats a good book on learning basic tactics in debating?
I never took public speaking in college, and when debating colleagues I get rolled over pretty easily.

I know citing sources and knowing your facts about issues well is 90% of the job, but is there a book out there that helps you with delivering a coherent message?

I got the Lincoln/Douglas Debates, which I haven't had time to read, thinking that if anyone knew more about the "judo" or debating it was Lincoln as he pummeled Douglas in every debate.

Thoughts anyone?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. don't know any good books
There are some great sites out there, though. Tell me if you ever wanna debate. I've had lots of experience online, arguing with fundamentalists, conservatives and progressives. Not as much real life though.


these should keep you busy for a bit:

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/
http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/001118.php

good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks oxbow!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. No problem. Just remember though...
its not facts that win people over, but vision. In other words, you have to change their frame of thinking. Otherwise, your opponent will just ignore any evidence that doesn't fit into their worldview.

I like to think of it as changing hearts over minds. We have peace, truth and all the other great principles on our side. We just have to reintroduce the people to them again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. yeah I know what you mean, some arguments I've been in seem
to just go on for ever but go nowhere. It really is a process of transforming the outlook of the opponent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. If only people thought logically
we would win most of the time. Inevitably, one's view of the world comes down to feelings and other intangibles though. We all are not immune, either. Bush et al. strike us as fundamentally evil, and we look for evidence of it after the fact in most cases. And once we have made up our mind about them, it will take much to change our opinion.

Actually, I would recommend you read some Gandhi. Try "all men are brothers." Peace and truth are our greatest weapons, and Gandhi was the one who helped me realize their power. It comes down to basic principles and morals. I mean REAL morals, not the watered down swill these politicians sell the people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. That is a tough question
I was always one to think either you had the knack for debating or you didn't. I mean you can learn the points of it but you can never really learn how to debate. Its sorta a gift you are born with. You have a good place to start. I mean the Lincoln/Douglas debates are probably the greatest debates ever held in American history because both men were masters of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. While certain inate talents do come into play...
Debate is an art that anyone can learn or become more skilled at.

It's important to know the basics of a good argument. I'm sure anyone who has been through law school would agree!

I've heard the book, "The Art of Debate" is a good start but I haven't read it.

This site offers some basics:
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. great link
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Here is some books to check
seems to be pretty thin on the art of debating most of the books are about debating subjects like the Cold War,WWII, etc. Which means not telling you how to debate but giving you info to debate a topic.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dblended%26field-keywords%3DHow%252520to%252520Debate%26store-name%3Dall-product-search/104-1869796-1007114
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. that first one looks great, thanks lenidog!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. DU
Best place to start. It's not a book, but if you can hang in GD for a while, especially during the flame wars, you'll be in fine shape. That'll get you ready for ANY debate you can imagine. Just remember to say whatever you type out loud. That way you'll be ready and raring to go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. That is a really good suggestion, my problem is just know when to stop an
argument. I've been in a flame war thats lasted days (not here) and it really just ruined my week. Message boarding is pretty addictive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. LOL!
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 03:17 AM by ultraist
Some don't stop until they win.

I'd say stop if it becomes non productive--you aren't gaining anything nor are you influencing your opponent. That's generally my motto with my husband! LOL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. The point isn't to be right but to be correct
that's the way I look at it. It keeps me humble and stops me from defending many stupid viewpoints just because I don't want to admit being wrong. A really good debate is one which leaves both parties changed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Some advice and analysis
It's not about facts. Facts are easy.

One key to effective debating is never to take it personally. I know quite well that is more easily said than done, but it is an important skill to learn. And, it is a skill. If a disagreement has reached a level that it ruins your week, suggesting you've become so involved in the matter that it remains a part of your conscious thought even when not actively engaged in the disagreement, you're most likely not being effective while you are actively engaged. You need to disengage gracefully before you reach this point, but if you find you've already reached it, immediately stop participating.

The question is how to do this, how not to take a matter that is most likely very important to you (why else are you debating a point?) personally. One method is to be conscious of difficult, transitional moments in an exchange, speak (or write) less during those moments, analyze what is taking place by paying close attention to your opponent and what they are saying, not think about yourself at all, and address, directly, what they are saying in a manner calculated to strike weak points in the argument being presented. With all that analysis, which must be done quickly, your brain has little time to worry about how you're feeling and to get so involved that you allow emotions to take control of you. If you can't win a point, don't argue it. That will simply result in you feeling a sense of failure and leave your opponent with the initiative. Concentrate on your strong points and take the initiative away.

Here's something to consider: Why did Senator Joe McCarthy effectively lose the "debate" in which he was asked, "Have you no sense of decency, sir at long last?" One part of the answer is that he took that personally, and it prevented him from offering an effective response. You might suggest that Mr. Welch had taken the matter that led to him asking this question personally and that this had motivated him to be more effective. I do not believe this to be the case. What is forgotten is the line immediately following this effective assault:

Senator McCarthy: I know this hurts you, Mr. Welch. But I may say, Mr. Chairman, on a point of personal privilege, and I would like to finish it—

Mr. Welch: Senator, I think it hurts you, too, sir.

Mr. Welch, while certainly feeling a sense of disgust at McCarthy's tactics, channeled his anger and forced McCarthy into taking the matter personally himself. He turned the tables, in other words, which is dramatically highlighted by the above line. It may hurt me a little, Mr. Senator, but it hurts you more to have been called to account. I know it. You know it, and in just a moment, everyone is going to know it.

Senator McCarthy then began a rambling tirade devoid of any sense, and everyone knew, everyone listening and watching and who read the transcript later; everyone knew he had lost it.

Then, McCarthy directed a question at Mr. Welch, who answered:

"Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this with you further. You have sat within 6 feet of me, and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have brought it out. If there is a God in heaven, it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness."

Mr. Welch took himself out of it before he took it too personally and began raving like Mr. McCarthy, and McCarthy had nowhere to go but down. Checkmate.

The moral of this story is that while avoiding taking a debate personally, look for ways in which to force your opponent to do so. This is an unusual example because McCarthy was blind-sided. If you see an opportunity to blind-side your opponent, take it, but be careful where it will lead and make sure you don't yourself open up your own flanks. Under normal circumstances, the issues you discuss will not be so highly charged, although the way you feel about those issues may make it seem so. Be patient. Separate your inner-self from the environment, and constantly analyze what is taking place. React to circumstances, but never let those circumstances control your message. Tailor the message for the circumstances. Believe it or not, mediation outside the context of a debate forum helps.

Otherwise, on the subject of books, I'll suggest something that may seem unusual. _How to Read a Person Like a Book_ by Gerard Nierenberg. This is often used as a manual for sales training and is mostly about body language and trying to predict people's behavior, which may seem completely unrelated to debate unless you consider something important. What is a salesperson trying to do? In the majority of situations in which sales people find themselves, they are trying to convince someone to do something they may not have been initially willing to do by arguing, in a specific manner, the benefits of doing that thing. Sounds a great deal like debating doesn't it?

In short, concentrate on your opponents, knowing them and what they are all about, and use that knowledge to frame those facts and figures you have at the ready to be most effective for the situation.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. See, that's why I couldn't go into politics
I don't think of a debate as something you win or lose like a battle, but as a chance to fine-tune my position and maybe even learn something from my opponent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. I wouldn't do that.
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 01:18 AM by LoZoccolo
With all the shrill, knee-jerk, manipulative tactics people use on here during heated arguments, someone is likely to crash and burn if they use them during a debate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. From your nearest conservative bookstore...
1. Bill O'Reilly - "Just Shut Up - 1 winning strategy to debate success"

2. Sean Hannity - "The Nobel Art - how to use fake qualifications and discredited experts to win your case"

3. Rev Sun Yung Moon - "Mass Debating - a believer's guide"

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
16. I once asked someone a similar
question and he replied 'thrice armed is he who hath his quarrel just'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. Dont know about the books
I can give you a bit of advice if you want to become a better debater, first as someone said never take it personally, if you get angry it will hurt YOU not them. Second its about the logic, seeing the weakness in THEIR argument, and third learn your logical fallacies, dont make them and point them out in your opponents arguments, either by saying directly, look thats a false dichotomy. Or by pointing out the that another option was obviously available
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
publius_jr Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. Check out these gems!
The standard authority on debate is, I believe, Ms. Ann Coulter. Check out her opus magnum, 'Hot to Talk to a Liberal if You Must'. It is laden with examples of how to debate so well that the common lads & lassies will believe you, EVEN WHEN YOUR SUBJECT IS FALSE!!!

On a serious note, my friend, you should check out http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195091981/102-2659815-5067315">Cicero On the Ideal Orator. He's the guy Kerry was compared to by our resident tyrant & company. And in that respect he must be good!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. You're confusing formal debating,
as done in high school or college, with "debating" friends and co-workers. I don't think the debating books suggested will actually be at all helpful. What you want is to read books on logic, both formal and informal. Also books on logical fallacies. Here are some examples:

Attacking Faulty Reasoning: A Practical Guide to Fallacy-Free Arguments
by T. Edward Damer

Asking the Right Questions: A Guide to Critical Thinking, Seventh Edition
by M. Neil Browne, Stuart M. Keeley

Logic and Mr. Limbaugh: A Dittohead's Guide to Fallacious Reasoning
by Ray Perkins, Ray Jr. Perkins

Go to Amazon.com and look up those books and you'll be referred to many, many more.

Once you learn even a little about logic and logical fallacies, you'll spot them EVERYWHERE, in the most mundane of conversations. And of course constantly and omnipresently in what Republicans and Conservatives say. Good luck! Have fun!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. I've heard /Don't Think of an Elephant/ by George Lakoff is good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bat Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
24. I have one rule I hold to...
First person to bring up Hitler loses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. my fave

is "Elements of Argument: A Text and Reader" by Annette Rottenberg.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312397771/104-3345143-3692713?v=glance

It's about getting written arguments right. I know you're interested in winning oral arguments, but this the place to start if you really want to win convincingly on substance.

The best advice on how to win debate on a given topic is to have engaged the subject a lot, to have realized what the simple, semi-hidden issue at the center of it is and the logical answer to it. That was Lincoln's "trick". When you know you have the right answer, the game is all about proper exposition and knowing the audience or jury well.

Yes, there are excellent ways of knocking the other fellow off balance. It's a good thing to know, but if you're going to argue with the same folks fairly often, they figure out your trick and counter it


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC