I'm not bothered at all by Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise.

It seems my government isn't too bothered about it. Seriously, they must not be, because there has never really been any real effort to stop illegal immigration.

So why should I be bothered about it?

Before you tell me they take jobs, that's a no-go for me. I don't care. They work at jobs people I know WON'T do. And they get paid under the table, get paid far less than they would if they were legal (ie: employers take advantage of it) and they get no benefits from those jobs. Believe me, employers around here (Texas) LOVE it. Super-cheap labor. And they can fire them with no questions asked and they can't file for unemployment.

I know illegal Mexican immigrants. They lead a dog's life. No, not as good as a dog's life. Why the hell would I be envious of that?

I'm not racist, so appeals to bigotry won't work on me. I don't care if they speak Spanish (so the hell what?). I don't care if they stick a Mexican flag sticker on their car. Who cares?

Granted, in an ideal world, I'd love it if everyone who immigrated did it on the up and up. But I don't see the government under any recent administration (or any at all?) particularly concerned. Not enough to really do anything about it.

And don't go the route of "they suck money from taxpayers by using services." The Department of Defense wastes more money on weapons and weapons systems and development in one year than ALL the illegal immigrants EVER could.

So it's a big shoulder-shrugger for me. Honestly, it's weird to watch people get so riled up just SEEING Mexicans in public places. Heck, this area used to belong to them. Maybe they're just slowly taking it back? :shrug:

;-)

When the economy is good no one complains about the immigrants, legal or otherwise but the second it takes a turn for the worse the Blame the illegals first crowd comes right out of the closet.

In the 90s, I heard almost NOTHING about illegal immigrants, and I was working with a lot of right wingers at that time.

But now they are foaming at the mouth and going down there to be vigilantes.

Hey, I don't see boosh being particularly concerned, freepers! LOL!

and make LESS FREAKIN MONEY (wayyyyyyyyyyyy less)than they make working illegally here. Duh! We got the smart ones! Quit complaining. Near Hosuton, hubs is w/a bigshot Homebuilder, and he can vouch for the fact that these guys work their asses off, JUST like our (immigrant)Grandfathers did...

NOBODY is stopping any english speaking-american carpentry crews from working here--and there's $$$ to be made even if you comply with all the laws & employment regs. If "we" want these jobs sooo bad, where are "we"? 'Splain that.

same as the Jews were in Nazi Germany.

Some things don't ever change.

So anti-immigrant sentiment has always been a head-scratcher for me.

The native peoples of this country were disposessed of their lands and herded onto reservations.

Everyone else here who isn't a first generation immigrant is the decendant of an immigrant.

He came here from Germany when he was seven with his mother, who was a mail order bride to an American man (his stepfather).

If he spoke German in class, his hand was beaten with a ruler, sometimes to the point of breaking the ruler.

And today he's one of the biggest bigots about immigrants, even legal ones, I've ever seen! So HE can benefit from immigrating here, but no one else has that same right?

What the hell ever.

I'm in Florida and I feel the same way. You've got my support.

are coming here for jobs. This country gives free medical to illegals, but they let the legal go without. I know this for a fact because my aunt is a nurse in Brownsville Texas. They come across the board just to deliver their babies, or get free health care. We can't even take care of our own people. Until all Americans have free health care I will continue to complain about illegals. There is a reason why we have limits on immigration. Look at all the other country's they aren't letting people swarm into their country. Fox needs to take responsibility for his people. If Mexico is so bad let them get rid of their leader just like we are trying too. Thats MOP.

I don't have health insurance...haven't had it in 6 years. Neither has my husband or youngest son. Why? It's not because of the immigrants! My husband had his AFFORDABLE plan less than 10 years ago....and then every year they wanted more and more $$$ until we couldn't afford it. This country could give us all insurance if they wanted to. But they can't...we're too busy blowing up other countries and we need that money for the Dept. of defense! If there were NO illegal immigrants in this country, we would still not have affordable insurance.

people who don't have insurance. My sister in-law was hit by a car with an illegal who had no license, car insurance, and never showed up in court. My 2 nephews and niece escaped injury, but my brothers insurance had to flip the bill for the damage, which raises his insurance premiums. Sorry I don't see thing the same way you do.

if you're hit by an illegal or even a coyote running from the Border Patrol, you have no recourse from anyone. Your insurance, if you have collision, will repair the car but sometimes bodies are less repairable.

Insurance companies make the vast majority of their money via investments. With the markets going down the tubes the past five years, insurance companies' profits have also been going down. This combined with a spate of serious natural disaster means that the insurnace industry has been hit hard. Thus, to make up these profits they have to raise rates across the board. Homeowners insurance rates, car rates, even malpractice rates have gone up. This is why tort reform is such a damn bunch of BS. While the number of malpractice cases has gone down, as has the amounts awarded, rates continue to go sky high, simply to pad the pockets of the insurance agency drained by the drop in the investment markets.

You want your rates to go down, then call for some regulation for the insurance industry. Tort reform, illegal immigration, none of this will even effect the rise in rates. Instead, restructure the insurance industry so that they can'pad their profits via rate hikes whenever the markets drop. Normal people take a risk when they invest in the markets, the insurance industry needs to be taking the same risk instead of speculating in dot com bubbles and other speculative bubble type ventures.

This country needs a national health plan, like other industrialized countries.

Maybe you and your family are still lucky enough to be covered by a group medical plan your employer provides. Lots of Americans aren't that lucky, and there aren't enough jobs with medical insurance for the people that need them.

As for individual medical insurance, some people can't get it due to health problems they have. And even if you can get it--assuming you're fortunate enough to pay for the much higher premiums-- the insurance companies can and do attach riders saying they won't cover some condition(s) you already have.

Almost every other industrialized country on the planet does. Why the fuck are you lazily scapegoating impoverished people for the ignorant policies of the folks in Washington? Are you trying to tell me that the Mexicans are responsible for the fact that we don't have universal health insurance? If we sealed the borders and kicked the "illegals" out, then the 45 million Americans that are uninsured would magically have insurance? Bullshit.

Mexico is the result of what 100 years of a fascist regime can do to what was once a very wealthy country.
There isn't ANYONE who can turn that around in 5 years. It will take upwards of 10-20 years of honest regimes to get to the realm of a normal country and the beginnings of a stable economy.
I cannot fault anyone for wanting to feed their families.
I cannot fault anyone for wanting better for their children than they have themselves.
I live in a disadvantaged and poor area of Texas. There are many illegals here.
Most work at the dairy farms--would you work 7 days a week sunup to sundown--all holidays, no days off? Dairy is 24/7. Most of them get a beat up trailer to live in and $100/week.
The women scour garage sales and Goodwill stores to clothe their families and when you see them at the grocery stores, they are buying flour and beans in bulk to feed their families.
I will tell you one thing about these people though. The kids are always clean and well mannered. They are generally quiet and don't want any trouble.
I'm sorry--I don't know many Anglo's that would line up to work at a job like this.
But that life is better than what they can live at home.
The people you need to get angry with are our own home grown welfare moochers--the ones who have lots of kids so they can get more benefits. Eat twinkies and ding dongs on a regular diet, then have heart attacks and strokes all on the Medicaid dollar.
Your anger and prejudice is misdirected.

America, and not all of them are hard working. I know Mexicans who came to this country, the right way and worked their way to citizenship. By you opening the flood gate to all illegal immigrants your telling the ones who did it legally that they waisted there time. Again I completely disagree with your speculation of Americans.

I have lived in border states my entire 42 years and the anecdotal evidence you present happens everyday and it's not just illegals that do it.
I've been in two wrecks with Anglo's that didn't have insurance and I had to foot the bill.
Who cares that they don't show up to court--if they haven't got the cash what difference does it make? I don't wish to see people thrown in jail just so I can satisfy some sadistic urge to teach someone who is down on their luck a "lesson".
I am a nurse and I am here to tell you that my "speculation" of American's is front row seat.
Many are accustomed to abusing the system--they come in the hospital for trite things. They expect to be waited on hand and foot. They don't care if you are in a code, if they want their ice water, they want it NOW! Many malinger in the hospital and attempt at lawsuits for trivial things. This is all on the Medicaid dollar.(Not everyone on Medicaid is like this...just giving the picture of the population that I am speaking of and which I find much more harmful to the economy than the illegals).
There is so much abuse in our country by some of our fellow citizens, that anything the illegals do is a drop in the bucket comparitively speaking.

afford it. Who said anything about jail? I just want them to be responsible for their actions. Hell f-it. Lets all just run from our responsibility's.

Cancel your insurance if it makes you feel better--it's not going to make someone else carry it.
You took this case to court.
The guy had no insurance and you knew that.
Why would you take him to court unless you wanted him to go to jail or pay high court costs that he couldn't afford and end up in jail for that?
Like I said--many Anglo's don't have car insurance--so it's not strictly a problem with illegals. You are blaming everything on illegals as if they are the only ones that do this, when it's just not true.

Why would I take him to court? There is something in this country that we are all suppose to live by, and that word is responsibility. You get it? RESPONSIBILITY> So, It would be my fault this illegal smashed my car because they don't have insurance or a drivers license. Because they are poor. Let me get this right, It's my fault now because I'm an American, and I have to have insurance to drive, and these poor illegals don't obey the stop sign, and ram my car. Somehow it's my fault. You don't make alot sense

ANYONE can drive without insurance...it's not just illegals who do this. You are in this discussion espousing your hatred of illegals--it carries from jobs, to auto insurance, ad nauseum. You haven't made one coherent argument as to why illegals shouldn't be here except that you hate them.
We get that.
But your hatred of the brown skinned persuasion doesn't let you see that. It also doesn't let you see that this was ONE illegal, ONE incident--and you judge an entire race on this particular incident. Suddenly it goes from one illegal hitting a relative's car--to an epidemic of uninsured illegals gunning for you and only you.
Would you be this adamant if an uninsured Anglo hit your car?
A single mother with a baby who worked at a convenience store totaled my parked car on Christmas Eve. I knew that someone who made minimum wage that didn't have insurance had no way to pay me.
What good would sending her to jail do? Absolutely none. I didn't like that she wasn't financially responsible--but there wasn't really anything I could do about it except force her to show her repentance by going to jail, which I was unwilling to do. It was a severe hardship for me, but sometimes shit just happens and you move on.
It was his responsibility. No doubt. You know, I know it, everyone knows it.
So what are you going to do about it?
He doesn't have insurance. He doesn't have money.
What is it exactly you would like for him to do after he hit your car in that situation?
Would a pound of flesh be enough?
Somehow I doubt it.

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That would make them more subject to the laws about insurance, etc. Seems like a good idea to me.

Methinks you're over-simplifying...

immigration policies allow for. Rather than blaming hard working Mexicans who are trying to put food on the table for this, why not look into fixing our immigration laws?

the Kenny Lays of the US. And the power elite of this country for spending billions on an immoral war when so many Americans have no health insurance.

I'm sure there are some "welfare moochers." But I think they are definitely in the minority.

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from 150 years ago. I thought we've kind of matured as a nation since then. Guess I was wrong.

Next to nothing, that's right.

:hi:

:rofl:

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(probably around Pete Wilson time) that described how illegal aliens are not a financial drain on a community; they actually benefit a community.

I couldn't care less about such hardworking illegal aliens. (It reminds me of baseball. Tie goes to the runner. If they got here, they should stay.)

However, I know a woman that I can't even talk to about this. She is very vehemently, steadfastly against illegal aliens. They shouldn't be here. It's illegal. End of discussion. She feels they cost the United States a lot of money. She is angry about them. She considers this a major issue. She may even consider it the top issue. It doesn't matter what the neocons are doing to this country, compared to the horror of illegal aliens making it into the United States. She firmly believes they are costing us a lot of money. It's hopeless to try to convince her otherwise.

There are many people who feel as she does. (I also think she is beginning to be anti-any-alien, including the legal ones. One of her remarks was about how Vietnamese immigrants had taken over what used to be a Polish neighborhood. Polish? So Polish is American, but Vietnamese isn't. Some things are just beyond my comprehension.)

On the bright side, I was in a store Friday when a woman customer told the sales clerk that she had just that morning become a citizen. She was so proud. Having overheard, I congratulated her; then several other customers congratulated her. (I hope she votes left.) :) As far as I'm concerned, that woman is no less American than I am.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1368435

...Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year...

"...Super-cheap labor..."

Well, people you know would do that work if the employers were paying market rates. Unattractive work is supposed to pay more, not less.

Your attitude towards American workers is a trap many people fall into.

The Americans won't do it angle is absolute nonsensical propaganda aimed at enriching the ruling class to the detriment of the working class.

illegally?

Until someone actually comes up with a practical solution and puts it in place, your points are pretty moot. They ARE here, they DO come here, all the time, and they DO perform jobs the people I know would NOT do.

They mow people's yards for next to nothing. Americans are more than happy to take advantage of that. They do warehouse work for next to nothing, American employers are more than happy to take advantage of that.

Until that gets fixed, we are just talking out both sides of our mouth, as a country, when we complain about illegals.

BTW, illegal immigration has been around as long as this country has been a country. As long as Texas has been a state. And they've been used as super-cheap labor ALLLLL this time. Nothing new under the sun.

you'll see that they only do the jobs which cannot be exported (child care, maintenance, construction, landscaping, etc.).

Employing illegal immigrants is the same as outsourcing. It's just another way to screw Americans.

There has always been illegal immigration, but not to the extent where illegal immigrants line the streets, waiting for illegal employers to pick them up. That is what's happing in hundreds of cities right now.

Your "nothing new under the sun" comment is simply not true. It sounds like you haven't been to a border state within the last 10 to 15 years. It's NEVER been like this. NEVER.

It's called Texas. If you read my OP carefully you would have seen that. I was born in Dallas and have lived in different parts of Texas my whole life.

What do you mean it's NEVER been like this? I remember guys lining up for day labor in the early 70s. Oh yeah, it's such a new thing. :eyes:

In the 70s, there weren't illegal immigrants lining the streets to the extent that they are today. Not true. Not even close. Pure nonsense.

I can't say 1970, but very early on, at least all though the 80's. And San Francisco has many less than the southland

every Northern California city.

It's nothing at all like it was then.

Where's your profile, where are you?

I know what I'm talking about. I'm in a border state and my information -- in addition to being factual -- is first hand.

It's simply NEVER been like this. Why the need to deny reality?

Get it?

The situation has changed dramatically, across the board, since the 70s.

And it reaches far beyond labor and into schools, health care, law enforcement, etc. If you ignore the labor issues and just look at the schools, you'll see that it's a whole new ballgame.

And barring you posting some statistics from reputable sources, yeah, all you got is anecdotes.

How is that?

"Until such time as you post statistics.....etc etc."

It in no way meant "barring" as in "stopping" him.

There are zillions of 'em.

Ooops, scatch the the Irish--they're going home--their economy is booming...

Hmmm.

Did you live in the 70's or are you judging by a movie or a TV show?

He was assuming I haven't been to a border state in 10 to 15 years and I've lived in a border state my whole life. Since he has no profile, I can't tell WHERE he lives. Thus my question.

when Pete Wilson was Governor.Prop 187 and all. nothing new. I live about an hour from Mexicali. There is no way to tell Illegals, legal and chicano= 100% american. without carding everyone. a Chicano might just punch you out.

You don't exploit human beings in order to make it better for the rest. The right wingers talking points is that they will take any job and that makes it worse on everyone. If they keep pushing the propaganda people will believe it.

.. and if you were around in the 80's you'd know that construction was one of the higher paying jobs out there!

Now they pay these mexicans and salvadorans shit wages for what was once a pretty respectable good paying job. I am in IT and hate it. I am a skilled construction worker, which is something I'd rather be doing now, and there's no way in hell I could make it on the wages nowadays.

The phrase jobs we "won't do" is complete bullshit. I'd do much of it in a heartbeat.

One more thing. How many times have you gone to the fast food drive up and had your order f%#ked up by someone that didn't understand you and then blame it on you for not being clear? :mad:

"Our" country has outsourced all of the blue collar jobs. The very few jobs that are left we are being brainwashed to think that no one will take them.

...until the Americans won't do it crowd started chipping away at it.

Of course Americans will do it! Americans love to do it!

The pro-UNION areas (NY, Chgo., etc) have always paid construction workers well. Anti-union (Texas) has always used immigrant labor. Get your facts straight.

(By always I mean the last 30 years.)

So people who do shit work deserve no "honor"? Americans would literally starve to death if those "shit workers" staged a general strike! Migrants, illegal & citizen, put your fucking food on your table, so remember that the next time you walk into a grocery store!

Oh, I forgot, it's fine for those "lowly professions" to be taken by lesser human beings, right? Just don't let them try to live with "honor"!

I don't play your BS games.

Actually, I have NEVER had an order fucked up by a fast food employee because of language problems. And I've eaten a lot of fast food. That's such a myth.

um, er, uh, lazy kids (usually white-skinned, but not always) who aren't paying attention.

DEPORT 'EM! LOL

"One more thing. How many times have you gone to the fast food drive up and had your order f%#ked up by someone that didn't understand you and then blame it on you for not being clear? "

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Oh, a little weight insult even though you've never seen me? Based on my username? VERY mature of you.

Actually, I've lived in Texas all my life and have been around legal and illegal immigrants all my life. They work their asses off to learn English and these immigrants who just REFUSE to learn English that right wingers and bigots scream about so much are nowhere to be found. I know, I've LOOKED for them.

Teenagers who are immigrants refuse to even admit they KNOW Spanish. They'll tell you, in broken English and with a heavy accent, that they don't know any Spanish. EH? You know they do, but they DENY it. They Americanize their names, they Americanize their clothing, their mannerisms, and want nothing more than to shed any vestige of their previous culture. Why? Well, I wonder if hateful attitudes like yours don't have something to do with it.

It's sad, really, they would get paid more and be more able to get a job if they are still bilingual by the time they are grown up, but so many of them are in such a hurry to totally LOSE their Spanish and never speak it again (I've run into many kids who refuse to speak it, even though they know it), that they aren't qualified for those bilingual positions.

Until you've really been around them and talked to them, been immersed in their culture, you have no idea what you are talking about.

My beef is with employers who use and abuse them, then bitch out the other side of their mouth about them. My problem is NOT with the illegals themselves or with American workers.

And you just sound xenophobic.

I remember in 81 during the boom in Texas I would spend $1000 on a weekend and not even flinch. My 1 bedroom condo rent in 81 was more than my 4 bedroom home on 1 acre today.
Most people, even in highly skilled jobs that the illegals have no control over, have taken pay cuts as well as benefit cuts.
Our economy and bad decisions made by some of our elected officials have got us in this mess and are serving up anyone that will take the heat off of them--this month its illegals.

twenty years ago, they would make upwards of 15-18 an hour. Now, they can barely make 10. Is Bouncy saying that cooking is a job no one wants to do? No honor in cooking? A job that's beneath people she knows?

:::shaking head:::

I come from a restaurant family and I take this very personally and as an offense. It's elitist in the nth degree.

Right. Yes, there are just people LINED up to be short order cooks!

LOL! What color is the sky on your planet if you believe that?

Oh and there are also people just begging to mow lawns. And do agricultural work. And do unskilled labor in 100 degree warehouses.

Yeah, uh-huh. Where are these lily-white Americans just begging to be short order cooks?

This is a belated April "fools" joke isn't it?

may I ask how old you are? I am guessing in your twenties, because responses thus far are as naive as they come. It is that, or you are extemely uninformed. Your entitled to your opinion, just so long as you are aware that is is grounded in your reality, but not the reality of millions of us lily white Americans that are skilled in manual labor and are threatened by the outsourcing of our jobs in our own country.

my order was screwed up (yes, the person couldn't speak adequate English), I couldn't understand the person when I was ordering and politely asked them to repeat themselves several times. Once I drove up, the person at the window had to get someone else to come over and help her since she didn't understand me when I asked, "May I have sweetener for my iced tea, please?"

that's the problem. Why is it that our neighbor is still a third world country? You don't see Canadians pouring in to the US.

Canadians have health care and job growth.

and what does Mexico have?

Well, whatever. I'm too tired to debate this today. Daylight savings time is killing me.

:thumbsup:

Americans would do those jobs. Illegal aliens are paid below minimum wage because they have no redress.

Years ago, there was a woman below average intelligence who lived in the neighborhood. She worked in a local delicatessen, where they were paying her $1 an hour. She didn't know any better. Fortunately, she mentioned it to someone, was very surprised when told it wasn't legal, and it all got worked out. She was not an illegal alien, but it was a case of an employer taking advantage of an employee when the opportunity arose. (That's why illegal aliens work below minimum wage.)

to care for strawberries in the Califonia valley sun. By the end of the day he had no employees. What do you think of $5.00 a head for lettuce?. I see a certain amount of karma involved in stealing a country , then regretting the people who live there. They didn't cross the border, it crossed them.
And By the way Bouncy. Many here do not get paid under the table. They get taxes deducted. I can't however vouch for the bosses doing their share.

under the table, treat them like shit.

My husband talked his very right wing boss into stopping that practice. He was hiring illegals to do dangerous warehouse work and he loved it because he could pay them a TINY fraction of what he would have to pay a legal, with no benefits and no recourse for them if he decided to fire them.

The last straw for my husband was when an illegal came to work with duct tape wrapped around his arm. It turns out he had cut himself badly on the saw the day before and, with no health insurance and afraid to go to a hospital, he cleaned it up the best he could and put duct tape on it. It was already infected, badly (Mr. Bouncy can speak Spanish). My husband's boss refused to do anything for the guy.

Then the NEXT week, another illegal working there lost his FINGER on the saw table (they aren't given proper training, either) and my husband absolutely demanded that they stop the practice or he'd call the INS. (The boss listens to him, I think because Mr. Bouncy sells a LOT, LOL).

So he stopped. No more illegals.

It's simple economics.

BTW: If I could get paid $3 or $4 (+/-) for every head of lettuce I harvested, I'd be doing it 24 hours a day until the season ended. But, of course, your numbers are pure propaganda.

Piece work left this country about 20 years ago. Didn't we use to get fed a load of BS about Americans being lazy? The media kept doing stories about how we didn't work as hard as the Asian countries worked. The outsourcing started a couple of years later.

The Americans won't do it crap -- if that's what you're talking about -- is used by Pukes and Dems alike.

We have people starving in this country. The more that they tell people that people won't take the jobs the more jobs they can outsource and no one will notice. What they can't outsource they will paint it as if no one will take the job. They hire Mexicans and treat them like dogs. It doesn't help Mexicans and it doesn't help any one else in this country. I have witnessed Mexicans being worked for near to nothing and they get hurt. They can't go to the Hospital in CA because they take the chance of being deported. The corporations don't care and neither does the rich home owner that hires them to do a little bit or work on the side. Exploitation is not the smart decent way to go.

We have people starving in the Delta, on Indian reservations, and in the coal mining areas of the south. We even have people starving in PA, OH and other areas where all of the factories have been shut down.
They have families to feed and kids going hungry. They would be more than willing to work for food for their family. This country is going to hell.

but this one is.

This slope bottoms out at slavery.

one to go.

on the most accurate reply, in this entire flamebait thread.

LW talking point.

In fact, you rarely even hear them referring to this work as "blue collar" anymore. I guess it sounds too respectable.

I am related to people who worked the fields, and never shoulder to shoulder with a white person. never.

there are some jobs, a few, that I truly belive the vast majority of americans think they are 'above'. I also have family that is very poor, and very white, and they would rather starve than work shoulder to shoulder with a Mexican. I am sure there are exceptions, but they aren't lining up for the jobs, are they?

topping onions if they work hard and show up. Most farmers pay top dollar for good field workers. Mexicans aren't stupid, and they know from generations of migratory work what the going rate is for migrant work. They know what they can and cannot demand by way of wages and benefits (such as housing) They come because it's more than they could ever make in Mexico, it betters their lives.

my family knows. (hint: they weren't farmers) and they were proud to do the work for the wage they received.

unattractive work pays more? what planet are you on? That's why models get paid millions while hotel maids get paid minimum wage. (hotel maid was the hardest and grossest job I ever had) It would be nice if that's the way it was, but it's not, and it never will be. We need more hotel maids than models, and models generate more profit than maids, therefore, it is not financially reasonable to pay maids model's salaries and vice versa. (I use this example only to illustrate, not to say that you actually meant 'attractive' work like modeling)

americans simply feel this work is beneath them, at any wage. I have personally witnessed the arrogance and entitlement of americans compared to mexican immigrants, it's repulsive.

less attractive, highly physical jobs pay more, then you don't understand capitalism. Americans will do the work at the market rate (by definition).

When jobs are illegally given to illegal immigrants, it's because the illegal employers don't want to pay market rates.

They don't want to participate in the free market, but instead choose to control it, rig it, pervert it, destroy it.

"When jobs are illegally given to illegal immigrants, it's because the illegal employers don't want to pay market rates."

or maybe they don't know they are illegal. My family was intimately involved with migrant work, on both sides (as field hands and as intermediaries between farmers and workers). It is not as simple as you think.

I can think of plenty of non-skilled, shitty jobs that pay just that, shit. you are thinking of skilled jobs, like construction, plumbing, oil rig work, fishing boats, etc. that get paid more because they are difficult and 'unattractive'. Try getting a high wage as a janitor or working in a mushroom greenhouse, no matter what your skin color or birthplace was. The pay is not equitable to the degree of undesirability of the job because amerians won't pay more for their mushrooms, or for their toilets to be shit-free at the local supermarket or theme park.

the jobs have to be filled, and americans will not do these jobs. period- at any reasonable pay rate. I have personal experience in this, do you?

some employers of jobs typically filled by immigrants pay a fair wage, some do not. My relatives that worked these jobs say it is up to the worker and the employer to work that out. If they didn't have the job, they wouldn't eat.

If they pick people up on a corner or in front of a home depot that pretty much lets them know that something isn't right. If our American Citizens started caring about "our" country and "our" people then they would want to pay $1.00 more for a product manufactured here instead of another country. If we all cared about "our" people we would make sure that the small business stayed in business. Until we start caring about "our" people than we don't have much of a country do we?

You can see it in this message thread. Instead of listening to older people the younger ones will take another persons word for it. We all need to stop listening to the media and start asking how things use to be and how they are now.

I will say it again "our country is becoming a third world country". Until we all come together and work things out then we can kiss it good by because it seems like people don't want to do the research on what is being discussed.

Instead of going along with a person and saying that they are right. Why don't we post a couple of sentences and elaborate why we think that they are right or wrong. And we all should listen instead of arguing. Some of us are wiser and we have lived a little bit longer than the others on this board. We do know how things use to be Pre-Reagan era. There use to be so many jobs that you didn't have to worry about finding another one if you lost your job.

having talked to the person filling out the I9's for many a migrant worker, it can be difficult to discern a fake from a real ID, with no training.

And maybe the person doing the I9 was born american because their parents came to this country illegally, and want to help others as best they can, so they look the other way. because maybe the alternative is that person starving to death. Time and money to become a citizen, and time and money are something most immigrants don't have. our system today favors white, well-off immigrants, and not poor brown ones.

this is too personal for me to not get hot about it.

this is from my conversation today with someone very closely tied to the issue. I am paraphrasing their feelings:

"From a humanist perspective, how can you deny work to someone simply because of where they were born?"

They could be messed up for life but do you think that they can file a claim. NO!

there are some employers that don't do that. I know them.

It's fucked up, and there aren't any simple answers. I am just looking to make sure people know that the immigrants are not the ones to be blamed, and that sometimes, former illegal immigrants are the ones doing the hiring.

Janitorial work used to pay very well.

It used to pay enough to where a janitor could buy a home.

It used to pay enough to where the janitor's spouse could stay at home with the kids.

What you say about Americans not wanting to do these jobs "at any reasonable pay rate" is complete nonsense. Unless you believe -- and you apparently do -- that it's not reasonable to pay a living wage.

Blue collar jobs paid up to three times more than office work. I worked in a factory because the pay was higher. You could also work extra hours and they paid overtime. Things have changed for the worse and we are sliding down to the bottom.

or a busboy, or a dishwasher, or janitor.

Things sure did change, and it's getting real bad.

I am re-reading this now, and am not sure what we are discussing really. I am saying that some migrant (usually a mix of illegal and legal immigrants) can make a living wage working fields. And I am saying that janitorial work and similar work doesn't pay very well compared to easier, high profile jobs because the results are less valued in our society. That's my point. do we disagree?

I am going to leave my earlier response, because I feel it's valid. but I think i went off on a rant because this is a very personal issue and there have been several threads about it and most have pissed me off. I think we may be responding to the issue and not each other. (at least I can say with some authority that I am)

here is my original response, unedited...

my family worked in the fields, bought homes and raised kids. and they were illegal immigrants. They appreciated the job, and worked their asses off, and never next to a white person.

I can't be wrong. It happened. My family member who did the placement for the contracted farm work NEVER once had a white, black, asian, or otherwise non-Hispanic person try to get work. In seven years of his time doing this, NEVER. The person who did it before and after him would say the same thing.

I am not saying that the work shouldn't pay more, I think it should. but you can't lay all of the blame on employers, sometimes they are honest, past illegal immigrants who do their best with the money they have. I have heard too many first-hand stories that refute your assertions to accept that Americans would do the job, at any pay rate. It is a cultural difference. Have you been to Mexico and seen the work ethic there? very different from here. Do you know any illegal immigrants? have you asked them what they think about this? I do and I have.

Perhaps you need to just accept that my opinion is based on anecdotal evidence, and leave it at that. Not much worth in the grand scheme, but it's enough for me, as a white, american born woman, to accept that their opinion is more authoritative than mine. I'd love to see things from your high horse, but I am down here in the real world, talking 'nonsense' to real people.

The problem lies at the core.
Get angry at the people that hire them at low wages.
They are the bad guys--not the guy that is working for next to nothing so his kids don't starve.

to clean toilets if it weren't for all these illegals?

You are spot on that analysis. Americans would do that work, if they were paid a fair wage. Instead the wage is a slave labor wage, and Americans naturally gravitate towards a higher paying job, if they can find one, thus leaving a vacumn behind for illegals to fill. This scenario isn't such a problem, that is until jobs start becoming scarce in this country, then the lower class in America starts getting squeezed hard. They're faced with scut jobs that are filled up with illegals and don't pay well, or a slack market for jobs that do pay well.

And the sad thing is that this is starting to creep upwards from the bottom of our job economy. First is was domestic laborers, then poultry plants and other manufacturing jobs, next are service industry jobs. Soon white collar jobs will be effected, and then maybe Americans will start paying attention.

The only way to curb this madness is to crack down hard on corporations and companies that offer out these jobs to illegals. Make it unprofitable for these companies to employ illegals and the incentive to come across the border will be gone. Instead, we should loosen the quotas of legal immigrants that can come in, and that move will benefit all of us. The immigrants won't be treated like slaves, wages will go up for all, and we can still take in "your poor, your tired. . . "

"The only way to curb this madness is to crack down hard on corporations and companies that offer out these jobs to illegals. Make it unprofitable for these companies to employ illegals and the incentive to come across the border will be gone. Instead, we should loosen the quotas of legal immigrants that can come in, and that move will benefit all of us. The immigrants won't be treated like slaves, wages will go up for all, and we can still take in "your poor, your tired. . . "

The employers, I have a problem with. The illegals? No.

I think anyone who wants to come to America should be free to do so. There should be no law stating that a freedom seeking individual be denied a chance to seek freedom in this country.

Under my plan the only people kept out would be criminals. And everyone working in America would be paid at least the minimum wage, which should be at least $10 an hour.

Then Mexicans wouldn't risk (and sometimes lose) their lives trying to come here illegally.

It must be because you actually care about other human beings and their well being.

What? Are you some kind of Liberal? <grin>

:-)

But I agree.
The problem standing between the illegals is usually a slick attorney who wants $1000 fee to get them legal.
Most can't come up with it.

Do "scabs" bother you?

You see, I can very well understand why a scab would take a job to feed his family ... or just buy a nicer car. I have nothing against scabs. But I'm also the descendant of coal miners and my paternal grandfather was black-balled for helping John L. Lewis organize coal miners.

So I understand economic coercion. I understand a society that ensures there's no economic safety net so it always has a willing supply of "volunteer" military cannon fodder and an eager supply of scabs. I can also understand how that supply can be easily kept in a banana republic with a Gini coefficient over 0.50. Funny, that. All the years of "helping" Mexico has just made the rich richer and the poor poorer. Gee ... I wonder why. :eyes:

STRONGLY.

I didn't indicate anywhere in my post that I think employers are right in what they do. Re-read what I wrote. They HAPPILY take advantage of illegal aliens. They are more to blame, I believe, than anyone else.

I hired them all the time when I lived upstate. Americans would/could not do it except for high schoolers, which was a waste of money. We didn't cheat anyone , and paid them decently. No deductions however, it was casual labor. That being said, the enswer to illegal immigration is jail and seizure of the walmarts, meat packers and construction companies that do the hiring

And you're right, Americans have become spoiled by ultra-low prices. It's part of our culture now.

It was in last Sundays paper. I read while husband drove to town and literally cried all the way there.

<snip>

PIERSON — Guillermo Perez is shivering, a thin sweater clutched around him, as he opens the door of his dilapidated mobile home.

The wooden steps are rotting. The skirt around its base disappeared years ago. The windows are cracked and the winter cold seems trapped inside the aluminum walls, as if in an icy soda can.

"It is very, very bad," Perez says in broken English.

Perez and his 10 roommates pay $1,100 a month for the 756-square-foot mobile home, which doesn't have heat or a refrigerator or a working stove.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/immigrants/032705place.htm

Let me stop right here and say I live in a mobile home. My home is 2 1/2 years old. It's almost 2400 SF and my mortgage is LESS than these people are paying and I also have a acre of land included! I could not believe what I was reading. And then, I read further....

<snip>
Each day, their landlord and crew leader Fidel Velazquez picks up Perez and the other men and drives them to a local fernery owned by Pierson Town Council Chairman Samuel Bennett.

Chairman Bennett has been cited for persistent violations of state law during the past 15 years. His mobile homes, rented to farmworkers and inspected under the less-stringent state law governing all mobile home parks, have been cited for infractions ranging from raw sewage flowing around the mobile homes and exposed electrical wires to roach infestations, according to Volusia County Health Department records. He has never paid a fine, records show.

There is a whole section to read about this. It will turn your stomach.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/immigrants/

Edit for spelling.

Illegal immigrants are forced to live in deplorable conditions, and they pay huge rents. Years ago, the LAT found that rents in some parts of East LA were many times those charged in Beverly HIlls. If they complain about faulty wiring or plumbing, they face deportation. They are always characterized as being a drain on taxes, but why doesn't anyone complain that it is really their employers who should be paying them. I know mine do.

As the descendants of the aboriginal people to this hemisphere, they should be entitled to traverse borders with simple permits and working papers, and to pay taxes if they do work here.

Those are the laws that should be changed.

The USA, Canada and Mexico should adopt a cooperative system like the EU.

I think you hit the heart of how I feel about it.

Not even 200 years ago, all those border states people so jealously protect WERE Mexico. And the US stole it and don't give me the "they purchased it legally" crap. They purchased it as "legally" as they purchased all the other land they "discovered".

When they get hurt on the job they are too afraid of being deported so they don't go to a Hospital. If someone wants to rip them off they can because they are too afraid of calling the police.

Exploitation doesn't work!

But people are so horribly scared of a brown nation that it won't ever happen.

You just hit the heart of it: racism.

50% of the nation in 2050. I have never seen so much panic. Normal people, people who would never consider themselves racist, people who you'd see everyday on the street, even some people who consider themselves "progressive" were all desperate to rationalize why we couldn't let this happen.

Geez, they'll still be 50% of the nation! That's still the majority! Cripes!

Personally, I like all kinds of people. I couldn't give a rat's ass what color a person's skin is, people are people.

But I do get alternately tickled and disgusted at their panic.

I'm hoping the browning of America will be a boost to the Democratic Party! But we have to do a better job of representing the ethnic groups in our party, because the conservatives have done too good a job of disguising their racism by putting minorities in high profile positions, while doing nothing about the actual issues their social groups face on a daily basis.

They live in the shanty's that their ancestors had when they were slaves. Have you even heard about The Delta? The media never mentions them but they are there and most of them go to bed hungry.

I am not against anyone I am against the assholes the exploit them for financial benefit. If we shut the boarders and allowed the people that are already here to stay we could start caring for the people that are already here.

Why are people allowed in from other countries but the only ones that they want to ban are the Mexicans? Don't you find that a bit odd? They need a group of people that they can blame "our" problems on. Thats why the right wingers are going to the borders in masses to keep them out. It's all about the might dollar and until you figure it out then it will stay the same.

We have to come together as a political party instead of arguing over issues.

It would mean that they would have rights, to file Lawsuits, go to a hospital, overtime, etc. The corporations are in control now and your not going to see that happening anytime soon.

I agree.

but the airports as well. India has as many educated, motivated, English speaking people wanting to better themselves as Mexico and Central America has unskilled workers. We could level the field even further by doing away with all unions and their protective rules on seniority, etc. Also take away tenure from our teachers at all levels as we surely can get others to work cheaper and do a better job for much less money. We could actually get the cost of services in health, education etc. down to the point that if any citizen still had a job, they could afford them.

it.

Late April Fools, right?

As far as Texas goes, the Mexicans can have it back!

I meant it. I'm not advocating officially handing Texas over to Mexico, don't be ridiculous.

But that's how I feel. Illegals are treated like crap (less than crap), employers are more than happy to take advantage of them, and the government doesn't seem all too concerned about it and not just bush's administration, either.

And I think a lot of anti-immigration sentiment is racist at the heart of it.

"And I think a lot of anti-immigration sentiment is racist at the heart of it."

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But you are wrong.

I don't know what your situation is, but when people need a job and $$ they'll do anything for work. Greedy employers will not hire an out of work "professional" not only because they are overqualified, but they can get a cheap Mexican somewhere. IMO, that's unAmerican. Got to take care of 'Muricans first.

And I am not being ridiculous about TX. They can have the stinkin' state. Since you live there and are happy with it, then there's no problem.

That we stole from their ancestors. We can also swap them our dictator for their dictator.

"And don't go the route of "they suck money from taxpayers by using services." The Department of Defense wastes more money on weapons and weapons systems and development in one year than ALL the illegal immigrants EVER could."

Especially fine point!

isn't a discussion or even opposition over illegal immigration. I know a lot of people that have waited in line for years to come here legally, so I certainly believe people should wait in line and go through the procedures.

What pisses me off though is senseless ranting by certain posters, unable to form a simple argument and instead they just yell "send 'em back" over and over again. It's that kind of idiotic, nativist ranting that pisses me off.

Hell, if ya checked my poll out, you'll notice that a large number of DUers don't even think children of permanent residents and legal visa holders should be given automatic citizenship. This shows real xenophobia on the part of people that claim to be "progressive".

Of course that should come to no surprise considering I've seen people say we should 'out Buchanan Buchanan himself' on immigration. I suppose those same posters believe it would be ok to just shoot people on the border.

I suppose many of these same people are just as ignorant in believing that the constitution doesn't apply to ALL residents in the US.

That's my rant and I'm stickin to it.

I am after the employers that work the hell out of them and treat them like they are a work horse or a machine.

back?

If Bush can't handle them, let's just apologize for the theft.

Mexico.

And don't go the route of "they suck money from taxpayers by using services." The Department of Defense wastes more money on weapons and weapons systems and development in one year than ALL the illegal immigrants EVER could.

I knew I liked you for some reason. :)

I'm in education. I see the kids of illegal and legal immigrants all the time. The lives their parents lead are pretty horrible. I am amazed to think that, as bad as it is here, it's BETTER than there. Wow.

Instead of seeking solidarity with them.

But some things don't know the boundaries of political affiliations, apparently.

What a few people in this thread are missing is that I never said the way things are now is ideal or even GOOD. I lay the blame on employers, who drool over the cheap labor and no benefits. I've seen it up close and personal. And I don't see any administration particularly doing much about illegal immigration.

I guess what bothers me is the ire (and often, xenophobia) directed at the immigrants instead of at employers or the government who COULD do something, but doesn't.

Ah well! :shrug:

With the fascist leadership of our country, there may be a day not too far in the future where we are trying to sneak into Canada so we can feed our families.
What the irony is to me, that it was okay for the Americans to sneak into Mexico when we had a flu vaccine shortage and take their vaccine because their government was better prepared than ours.
Karma is a double-edged sword that swings both ways.

Can you please show some examples of the poor being blamed, I would love to see them.

would really benefit the country much more. If we could allow enough teachers, engineers, computer specialists, doctors, nurses,medtechs, radtechs (hell, all medical fields)etc. to freely immigrate to the country, we should be able to realize significant cost savings in education, health care, legal aid, policing, firefighting, etc. These people are not just motivated to better themselves, they are also well educated, and as the H1B visas have shown able and willing to do as good a job for less.
As I said we'd have to do away with all those pesky unions and their restrictive rules and tenure for teachers and professors would have to go just to be fair. There are probably almost no jobs we couldn't get done for less if we just allow those workers to come here.
And as a bonus, Indians are brown-skinned so you couldn't say that we're racist.
I'm retired but worked at those jobs "citizens won't do" for about half of my working life so the immigrants I'm promoting would make the old Social Security check go a helluva lot further.
Oh, sorry if YOU lose YOUR job but that's competition.

I'm sure I could compete just fine. I'm also highly educated and really good at what I do.

Bring it on.

Oh and here in Texas we are not allowed by state law to have any kind of real teacher unions, collective bargaining power, etc, so that would be different how?

LOL

You have no job protection at all? I believe a lot of those Texans while looking at their tax bill could see importing your replacement.
You and I both know that that is never going to happen so your "bring it on" really means nothing.

No, I have no job protection at all. Texas is a "right to work" state and the contract I sign from year to year states they could let me go for any reason, at any time.

So your little sarcastic "oh no, what would you do without the union protection?" barb doesn't work on me, as I have no protection to begin with.

Those with little to lose tend to not be as fearful.

If it's never going to happen, why bring it up? So you are saying you had no point at all?

would know better than paraphrasing a statement and putting it in quotation marks.
Actually the point I was trying to make, but that must have gone over your head, is that people that feel their job is secure are much more likely to be for your open border policy than someone, that say, works in construction, as I have.

illegal immigrant?

:eyes:

In case you missed it elsewhere in this thread, I fault the employers and the government, both of whom could take action to make things better for ALL concerned.

What I DO dislike is all this ire and rage (much of it xenophobic in origin) directed at the immigrants themselves.

You seem to get upset if someone disagrees with you. We all need to discuss issues instead of attacking each other. Do you honestly think that anyone would want to see them go hungry or die trying to cross the boarder. The government needs a scapegoat for the problems it has caused do to outsourcing. There would be jobs for everyone if we still had the factories that we use to have.

My problem is NOT with the illegals, my problem is NOT with the American workers, my main problem is with the employers who happily use and abuse the illegals. THAT is who people should be mad at.

But no, it's too easy for most Americans to tap into their xenophobia and racism and get angry at the Mexicans instead.

If they knew there were no jobs for them here as illegals, they wouldn't come. But there are.

This isn't about racism. You are not winning your argument so you need to turn it into something else.

Are you quoting someone or is that just how you do your title?

No, it doesn't seem to be about racism on your part, but I've certainly seen it rise up in this thread. Not trying to turn it into anything else, you just can't seem to admit, except for the closing the borders part, we are on the same side here. It is the EMPLOYER I have a problem with, NOT the illegals. Now, read that last sentence again, slowly.

See?

It doesn't seem fair that capital can chase down the cheapest labor markets, but labor can't escape the cheapest labor market and chase down the best labor markets.

In the documentary Life and Debt they make the point that tourists fly into Jamaica and barely have to pause at customs before jumping on those tour busses that drive through the hospital-less slums on their way to the resorts where they'll eat nothing but food imported from Miami. However, if a Jamaican wants to visit a relative for a week in Florida, they have to stand in line for hours at the US Embassy where they'll have to provide every detail of their life to some stranger so they can get a visa.

And a big reason Jamaica is poor and exploited by the west has to do with the fact that it's so easy for America to get into Jamaica and it's so hard for Jamaica to get into America.

bouncy ball! it is a nonissue with me too, and i live in california.

standing on the corner just waiting to make a few dollars
doing yard work.

I just wish they could get drivers licenses and get decent
treatment from their employers.

I have no problem with Mexican migrants either. As a matter of fact, the best thing about living here is the proximity to Mexico where I go every chance I get to escape this toxic culture.
I spoke with a Border Patrol officer a couple of days ago and his opinion of the Minutemen was that they just want to pretend they are heroes. After a few days they will get bored and go home.
One more thing to consider is that our Social Security program is funded partially by immigrants who do not benefit from it at all.

Overpopulation & exploitation of labor are worldwide problems. We cannot solve them by making the USA a gated community. (Besides, who maintains the lawns in those ghastly places?)

And why do so many "English only" advocates have such a poor command of their native tongue?

I speak more than one language.

>>Before you tell me they take jobs, that's a no-go for me. I don't care. They work at jobs people I know WON'T do. And they get paid under the table, get paid far less than they would if they were legal (ie: employers take advantage of it) and they get no benefits from those jobs. Believe me, employers around here (Texas) LOVE it. Super-cheap labor. And they can fire them with no questions asked and they can't file for unemployment.<<

I do one of those jobs people you know won't do. I charge a fair price because I know my worth and I pay my employee a decent wage because I know her worth. But there are illegal immigrants who will do it for half of what I charge because they are under the table and live in a house with ten other illigals so they pool their resources.

Now I can either hire illegals and pay them shit and make a profit on them without paying taxes, or I can lower my rates so that I can compete with illigal immigrants which cuts my income and forces me to work more than 10 hours a day just to provide for my three kids.

This can't be BouncyBall's opinion, "screw or get screwed, it doesn't affect me"

It affects many of us. Don't be a republican (every man for himself)

And 10 hours a day work for what sounds like your own business? Please. Wah wah wah.

any evidence of an intelligent thoughtful exchange in your post, I failed to see it.

:shrug:

Your problem isn't with competition within the labor market. Your problem is that it's so easy for capital to exploit a part of the labor market by exploiting immigrants. What you should be arguing for is lifting up that part of the exploited labor market so that all labor is treated fairly.

The economy does better when all labor is treated well. That creates more jobs and more social wealth for everyone.

Illegal immigrants are exploited because they are available to exploit. You can't make sure "all labor is treated well" when some labor goes on under the table and separate from the labor laws Democrats have worked so hard to pass over many decades.

We all do better when we all do better.

And another part of this is that the much bigger problem: the thing that will ensure that people continue to emigrate to the US is a combination of US foreign policy and exploitative conservative governments in countries of origins.

The US supports exploitative RW governments in Haiti and is currently worried that a socialist might be the next Mexican president and we don't like the fact that Venezuela now has a government that wants to make the people wealthier? The WTO destroys indigenous Jamaican industries creating a class of destitute Jamaicans?

We promote policy which ensures that people will be desperate to escape exploitative economies. So long as people are desperate, they're going to come here for a better chance. We can do two things: make it easier for people to work here and we can stop trying to promote fascism abroad. Everything else (including the Minutemen) is a waste of time and resources.

Why are they always after the Mexicans and no other nationality?

The argument that any new entrant to the labor market who is willing to do the same work for less money is a threat to the people who already have jobs.

If that were the case, every college graduate would be a threat to people who have jobs, yet law firms, hospitals, accounting firms, fortune 500 companies keep hiring new graduates.

So, with everyone except immigrants, we see new entrants to the labor market as the thing that keeps America prosperous and moving forward.

We're hypocrites if we say we hate immigrants because they're competition for our jobs.

The problem isn't that they're hear and they're willing to work. The problem is that they're so easy to exploit and that drags down some people at the bottom.

We'd all be better off if we argued for two things: (1) fair treatment for anyone who works in America, and (2) a global free market in labor so that poor people can escape oppressive labor markets and so that capital has to share some of the wealth they create with people who work to create that wealth.

I'm not against illegals, I'm not against American workers. I'm against employers using and abusing illegals AND I made the point that I don't see the American government, under ANY administration, as being particularly concerned about it.

THEY are who should be blamed. If the immigrants couldn't find work, would they come here? If hiring immigrants was monitored and the companies were fined a HUGE fine for hiring them, it would stop, post haste. If the companies who hire them don't have immigrants to hire they will pay a fair wage to American citizens...would they not? Just sayin'.....YOU ARE BLAMING THE WRONG PEOPLE!

It IS the employer I blame. Not the illegal. Americans get all angry at the illegal, when they should be angry at the employer who is perfectly happy to use and abuse them for a fraction of the cost that they would have to hire a legal citizen/immigrant at.

the people who are for the vigilantism. I should have made that clear. I did read all the posts. I agree with you. :hi:

Sorry thats just wrong. If those jobs paid a decent wage a living wage then Americans would do the jobs. If the choice is 3 bucks for field work or 8 for Walmart drone then they go Walmart. If the employer paid 10 bucks for the field work they would do the field work.

Here is the deal though it goes beyond well beyond illegal Mexican workers, as someone who deals with outsourcing everyday we have opened Pandoras box. India is jumping all over our white collar jobs. So where does it stop? The business cheers as well as other white collar jobs as those snobby IT people 'get what they deserved' then oops its accounting next and so and so forth.

We are as a nation hollowing ourselves out.

. . who come to this country to build a better life are screwed. The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war revolving around accusations of racism breaks out, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Capitalists) laugh all the way to the bank. I am sure they are smiling now.

All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents the job is a step backward.

As an example, meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr+ in 2000 $) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation reflected this.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrant's. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

So, it appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position or defined benefit/trust fund annuity, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

What we need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which think sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=5&s=for...

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

for this thread. After all, the people "they know" wouldn't do this work. I'd say that that says more about the people "they know" than the citizenry as a whole.
I worked for Oscar Meyer in Chicago in 1968 and made pretty damn good money. I had to join the Amalgamated Meat-cutters and Butcher-workers union and was glad to do so. Now these are considered by those here who's jobs aren't threatened by illegal immigrants as jobs "citizens won't do". If the same job paid the same relative money as it did then, I know people that would line up for the opportunity to be hired but then I don't know the people "they know".

If you actually read my thread beyond the subject you would see I stated people here would do those jobs if they paid a decent wage! Which they use to back when like you mentioned they had unions.

Perhaps I should have put my subject in quotes inorder to mean I was attacking this statement -> "Americans wont do the work its beneath them." Rather then actually agreeing with it which I was not. I just assumed people would read beyond the subject line.

PS. I am actually directly effected by outsourcing right now.

and you would have seen that I'm in general agreement with what you said. But don't jump me for a reply to another poster especially when I'm agreeing with his (or her) agreement with you.

I was peeling off from your and PsN2's comments, with which I generally agree. My reference to Thread was the entirety of posts under the OP.

seem to agree with your life experience?

What I wrote up is a product of news articles I have read through the years, and a recent (last 2 years?) piece on Iowa NPR about the changes in the Storm Lake Iowa area.

Kind of funny how it is never brought up that these jobs "Americans Are Too Lazy To Do" where done by Americans when they paid a fair wage.

PS:

Here is an article I came across when trying to figure out if it was Storm or Spirit Lake (always get them mixed up). It appears that I low-balled the salary numbers. I was writing from memory, and I did not want to misrepresent the wages unionized meat-packers were paid in the 70-80's.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/comments.php?id=154_0_2_0

The Hygrade workforce was primarily male and of European descent. Only in its last few years of operation, in the late l970s to early 1980s, did a few women work on the plant floor. The plant’s workforce was from Storm Lake and surrounding communities. Prior to the mid-1980s, Storm Lake was almost exclusively Anglo, and this homogeneity was reflected in Hygrade’s workforce. Many of Hygrade’s workers put in thirty years or more at the plant, reflecting a low turnover. For many, their jobs supported a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle. Average annual incomes were about $30,000, but some senior workers earned up to $40,000 or more in Hygrade’s last year of operation.

In October 1981, Hygrade closed its plant and Storm Lake lost five hundred jobs. Community leaders immediately set about attracting a new buyer for the plant.

In April 1982 IBP announced its purchase of the plant for $2.5 million. After extensive renovation, this became the company's first pork-packing facility (IBP previously had processed only beef.) IBP’s move into pork processing signaled a major transformation of the industry.

When IBP opened its doors in September 1982, its workforce did not resemble the old Hygrade crew. Hundreds of former Hygrade workers applied, but fewer than thirty were hired. IBP would look beyond the Storm Lake community for its laborers. Beginning wages were only $6 an hour, and health benefits become available only after six months on the job. (Today, starting wages are $7 an hour.) The new plant had higher productivity expectations than the old plant. Injury rates climbed, and high employee turnover increased the strain on local labor supplies.

What kind of a liberal are you?

If you really believe that illegal immigrants do the jobs that citizens won't do, why wouldn't you be in favor of cutting off this cheap supply of illegal immigrant labor to their employers? Presumably, those employers would then be forced to support increasing LEGAL immigration to get these workers back. And they would have to pay them REAL wages and pay taxes on them as well.

Have you read this thread? The EMPLOYERS are who I have a beef with. My husband even demanded that his employer STOP the practice of hiring illegals for pennies on the dollar and having them work in unsafe conditions. And it worked, they did stop.

You think I disagree with your second paragraph, but I don't.

I see a lot of Americans direct their ire at the illegal but not at the American employer hiring them. THAT is who I think should get the anger, not the illegal.

By calling the issue a "shoulder-shrugger" you seemed to me to be saying that illegal immigration is not a big issue. I, too, have no problem with illegal immigrants themselves. At least, I don't blame them for trying to earn a living. But I see illegal immigration as a VERY big issue. It's true that illegal immigrants do difficult jobs at wages far below what is fair. The same could be said of slaves at one time in our history, not that I would argue that illegal immigrants are as bad off as slaves 150 years ago. And yet there have been cases of actual slavery happening even today with illegal immigrants being held against their will.

I guess it is the framing of the issue that I have a problem with. I think the association of racism with anti-illegal immigration views is a right-wing tactic designed to intimidate people from speaking out against worker exploitations. It's like going around saying "support the troops." It's not that anyone disagrees with that sentiment, but there is another hidden message in that implying that there are some people who DON'T support the troops. While I agree that there are people who just don't like Mexicans, I would prefer that we focus less on the racism aspect of this and more on the liberal aspect of labor issues.

:thumbsup:

Yes, it is the EMPLOYER I wish people would talk about, and raise hell about. I see too much focusing on the "evil" immigrant when the employer who is willing to use them for low wages gets off scot-free and are the one ENABLING this whole thing.

Coming here, drinking shitty US beer, speaking Canadian, able to blend in with their european features (as long as the mullet is trimmed nicely) and ordering "backbacon" when they mean "ham"! It's an outrage, eh!!

/sarcasm

As for your intial take, I agree too.

built by american labor????? If we had to pay american's the wages we think we deserve, we would all be on the streets.

prices for products and services, that it would be a shock to do what you said. So yeah, I agree.

But again, as I have said ALL through this thread, I save my anger for the employers, not the illegals.

Strange concept for a Progressive board, supporting the concept of a permanent, lower indentured class.

Is the life of a construction worker, plumber, farmhand, or meat packer of less worth than that of an x-ray technician, HTML programmer or call center worker?

When it was only the blue collar jobs being lost due to off shoring and the illegal immigration fed labor black market, the cry was Ricardo's 'Comparative Advantage' and 'Americans Don't Want These Jobs'.

Now that these white (gray?) collar 'new economy' jobs are being off shored/H1B'd, the cry is the same, but it is now the solidly middle class that is backed into the canyon.

But gee, we can't roll back the whole process, because I won't be able to afford as much plastic shit at Wal-Mart, or I will only be able to afford a 1,800 sq. ft. house.

You know, maybe the blue and gray collar workers have abandoned the Democratic Party because they have offered no solutions to their day to day problem of holding on to what they have and maybe getting a little leg up. To these people, at least the GOP offers Bread (cheap Wal-Mart crap) and Circuses (strawmen, 'culture of life', etc.)

How can we provide a decent living wage to anyone if we don't even provide one for the people that are here already. The right wingers are wanting "slaves".