If a German Who Resisted Hitler During WWII is Called a Hero....

What do you call someone who complied?



Pope Benedict XVI

:D

conformist.

This is the best the Catholic Church could come up with? (by the way I'm a Catholic by birth)

Who ran second, Cardinal Law?

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(sigh)

He wasn't frozen in time at 14.

but, in fairness, he turned 18 on April 17, 1945 (I know this because some news outlet reported his birthday). The war had less than a month to go then.

Fled the Nazi Army in 1944 and was held briefly in an Allied POW camp in 1945. When he was released in June, he entered the seminary.

Doesn't sound like he was a big Nazi fan.

If he were a progressive, we'd be finding ways to defend him. As he is a Conservative, we're going out of our way to crucify him.

church. Heck, he even got involved in American politics and swung the election towards his fellow Nazi, Bush. Rat is also the guy most responsible for covering up the pedophillia within the Catholic church.

The Nazis forced gays to wear pink stars and Rat calls gays "intrinsically evil". Well, I'm not gay, myself, but I think that someone who supported Hitler and the Holocaust is "intrinsically evil".

shouldn't be Pope.

Don't you think there should be a higher standard than me and you?

so not entirely, no I don't.

when Peter was chosen Pope, there were about 20 Catholics to choose from. Christ came to convert and change people's ways.

Now, there are hundreds of millions, and people are taught the ways of Christ from birth.

At 14 or 18 he should have known. I'm not saying Ratzinger should be condemned, just not be Pope.

When history tested him, he showed no moral courage, and learned Fascism during his formative years.

By the way, his positions on social issues haven't changed that much in 60 years.

this is the wrong guy

because they have not faced the same tests. Are people who have not been tested automatically better than people who were tested and failed? Some of the people who passed did not live past 1945 and so are ineligible.

Jesus in the first place.

he faced a test, many tests, and proved his devotion to "His Father".

Ratzinger is just another politician, undeserving of the title of "Vicar of Christ".

That guy was a real ass, from what I've read.

and I despise the church to boot. Consequently, I don't really have a high opinion of the very institution of papacy -- so, no, I don't think a pope needs to be a "hero".

Besides that, I think that holding it against him that he was in the HJ when he was 14 is pure nationalism. Find a surviving male German who is 78 years old, and you have found a one-time HJ kid. Nazi Germany, 1941, man. Nobody had a choice unless they were suicidal.

Now, what I think is more alarming about this issue is that he doesn't seem to ever have explicitly denounced, apologized or otherwised shunned this period of his life.

I don't really care that, as a 14 year old boy, he did not have the guts (or death wish) to defy the Gestapo. I care WAY more that he has apparently not renounced this little bit of his background. That is where true character (and moral authority) comes in.

and manning an anti-air craft gun against Americans.

Maybe Jane Fonda could be Pope.

Since when did Jane Fonda actually "man" a gun against American troops? And hasn't she frequently and sincerely apologized for her behavior? She knows she was wrong, she's expressed that and apologized. Quite publicly, I might add.

But if Pope Ratzinger would have acted like Jane Fonda, or Senator Byrd (former KKK), and loudly and frequently renounced his actions, and took steps to amend them, I might have a better opinion of him. There doesn't appear to be anything in his history that indicates that he feels bad about this, in fact, he seems to have grasped the fascist thing pretty well.

Maybe the Jane Fonda reference was a little over the top.

after all, I love her, but her and I agree that the gun thing was a little too much.

If Ratzinger was contrite about his youthful activities in the Nazi party and soldiering against the allies in WWII, maybe I would think differently.

But as others have said, he may have ceased using the tactics, but he has grasped the philosophy.

I could admire a man who learned from his past, who gained humility and insight from his own capitulation to oppressive authority and spent his life working against those forces.

Instead, Ratzinger seems to have adopted the same iron-fisted, dogmatic authoritarian approach to leadership. The policy may be different, but the pattern is all too familiar.

Just what we need.

/sarcasm

Do you think that one rises to the top of the Vatican hierarchy by being the most pious, heroic, altruistic???

I couldn't agree with you more!!

or human, all too human?

Frankly, I find the idea that all members of the German military were Nazis is both stupid and woefully ignorant. Conscription anyone? How about that guy named Schindler . . . the one they made the movie about? Hmmm?

What about this guy?
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1343573.htm

Bad choice for people everywhere. Ratzinger is RAT!

I think it's doubtful.

I really don't like Ratzinger (and by this I mean my first words upon hearing he was the new pope were 'oh fuck, not him'), but the suggestion he is a Nazi is rather stupid.

By the way, I was thinking of this thread, and as I read the New Testament, I don't believe any soldier should be Pope.

I think even being a US Soldier should disqualify a man from being Pope, let alone a man who fought for Hitler.

can you be a nazi and then a saint? Just asking.

On an anti-aircraft gun shooting at Americans in 1945.

Let's see. 1945 minus 1927 is, oh ya 18, F**king 18.

The US Government is holding accountable 18 year olds for their actions in Iraq, good or bad.

So please stop with this 14 year old bullshit.

We are in the middle of a very evil war that we started in Iraq. Is every american soldier evil?

Glad it's not me.

I don't like the guy, not at all, but saying that a 14 year old boy who was forced to become a member of the Hitler youth and then conscripted into a German anti-aircraft unit was a Nazi is stupid, uninformed, and, since two of my best friends are German, offensive. Best case scenario for my detractors is that they can claim ignorance, or an idealized and unrealistic view of human nature. EOM.

stop with this RW bullshit of 14.

1927. My father was a WWII veteran (fought on the American side, BTW) and also was born in 1927.

Ratzinger was 18 when he fought in a German uniform after a lifetime of Nazi indoctrination.

Has he ever renounced his role, as limited as it might be, in defending evil?

I know Bush loves this guy, but he's the worst possible choice for the Catholic Church at this time.

Ratzinger was born in 1927

Thus he was 14 when he was forced to join the Hitler Youth in 1941.

Accordingly he was 16 when his High School class was deployed as "Flakhelfer". This had nothing to do with the Hitler Youth membership.

So he was 17 when he was drafted into the Landsturm militia and decided to desert.



Can we please get back to crticize the right wing problem we have, instead of making new ones up?

Shows so much courage in "resisting" the worst evil known to man.

Great Pope.

the only solace is that between the cover-up of Pedophilia in the Church, and now this back wards looking "Pope" the Catholic church will continue its downward trend for at least another generation.

it is not like I can't see the problem. But we know for sure what he has said in the past decade, while we have only a vague idea about his war-time actions. (On Edit: and as somehow failed to get it: he ended up as a POW in 1944)

He never said Hitler's plan was immoral, he never said the whole flecking thing was a terrible tragedy, he never said he regretted his service as a Nazi Gunner, why are you making excuses for the Nazi Poop? His present day ideology reflects his Nazi background, and he is no longer 14. He is supposed to be a perfect master, the "Dalai Lama" equivalent for Catholics. Some people were brave enough to say no to assisting genocidal tyrants like Hitler. Some people found ways to resist the Nazi's, some died about it. Rat Zinger was not one of the heroes. He was one of the Nazis, and he seems not to regret it. Why do you want to defend it?

I just try to keep the discussion oriented at the reality we have. So far I have not seen anything in his biography, that is not shared by almost all Germans his age (Grass, Habermas, ...).

He has denounced Hitler and the Holocaust numerous times; in his early years he was quite a liberal. That is why I believe that the old Ratzinger/B16 is a better target for criticism than a child.

do the math.

He was born in April 1927. That would make him 18 in April 1945. less than 30 days before the war ended in Europe

They couldn't find someone who WASN'T in the Hitler Youth?

The U.S. couldn't find someone to occupy the White House whose trust fund isn't tainted by Nazi gold?

California couldn't find a governor with no ugly reminders of Nazism?

WTF?

This "14 year old" excuse doesn't fly. He was studying in a seminary. Perhaps you can make excuses because of the Catholic Church's attitude toward the Nazi government during that era, that he was not fully aware of the gravity of the situation. That's the only plausible explanation, in my opinion. It makes him a terrible reminder of a time when the Roman Catholic Church was silent and sometimes even friendly toward the Nazis. So perhaps I should not vilify him the way that Pius XII deserves scorn for his small role in the deaths of millions. But at the same time I don't believe he should be pope because he was part of that. He was a member of a church that gave tacit support to the Nazis during the Holocaust. He did not desert the army until the war was already over in April of 1945, and he spent about a month in an Allied POW camp. That isn't to say he believed in the cause, but that his action of desertion shared more in common with those who did not want to be captured than those who did not want to fight.

I will say, though, that calling him a Nazi is wrong, because he isn't. He is, technically, a former Nazi. And I feel that we're wasting time on this, and that it is providing fuel for a lot of ugly things being said about Catholics, that I don't appreciate. It puts me in an uncomfortable position, defending why his past is important, but at the same time looking at what's being said by those non-Catholics using this as an opportunity to slander us. It distracts us from the Pope's Opus Dei connections and his dismissal of concerns about sex abuse as merely a media conspiracy. This is not a good man, and I understand your objections to the "Nazi" accusations. What I will not do is silence my criticism, and I expect that most of you appreciate that.

I do not think you could even accuse him of being "techincally a Nazi"
Not one pundit on this site have been able to prove that the furture Cardinal was a member of the Nazi Party. That like saying anyone drafted into President Johnsons Army during Viet Nam became a "Democrat" because was drafted and served.

Then what does that make ClarK?


Are we forgeting that had Hitler died only weeks before invading Poland. He would likely be remembered as the Greatest European Leader of the modern era.

Or as a ex-German soldier put it many years after the War. Before Hitler we were hungry, after he came to power we at least had something to eat.

Are we forgeting that had Hitler died only weeks before invading Poland. He would likely be remembered as the Greatest European Leader of the modern era.

Whatchabeensmokin, Willis?

If Hitler had successfully regained the lands taken from Germany under the Versailles treaty. Specifically the reunification of Germany and Austria, annexing the Sudetenland and Danzig. And nothing else. History would paint a very different picture of the man. Instead of the evil monster he was, history would point out that he outmaneuvered the Allied Powers and reversed the inequities of the Versailles treaty, without firing a shot.

With hindsight it is easy to see what a monster this man was. Living thru the period would give a very different view of the events as they unfolded.

:eyes:

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There are American kids being tried for crimes as adults at 16, 17 and 18.

Why does this guy get a pass.

Again, I'm not saying he should be tried. I'm not saying he shouldn't be excused.

What I'm saying, as a Catholic who has been sickened by the scandals of the past 15 years in the church, couldn't we find a Cardinal who didn't fight for Hitler, who didn't participate in the Pedophile cover-up, and can bring those of us who feel left out, back.


WTF WTF WTF WTF.

Law. Electing a Pope who maintains status quo with regard to this is the worst thing the Church could have done.

From Boston

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so don't act clairvoyant.

As a matter of fact, a false report circulated around work that the Chilean Cardinal was selected Pope.

I was happy and supportive.

I thought "How brilliant" a Latin American, the fastest growing and most vulnerable of the flock.

This choice is horrible.

Maybe you agree with his letter sent out just weeks before the election instructing US Cardinals and Bishops not to extend Communion to anyone who supports abortion rights.

The Church needs to condemn those responsible for the Pedophilia cover-up, become more inclusive, and reach out to other regions than Europe for a Pope, especially South America.

If not, if they continue down this path, the Church will continue in decline.

but Hitler supporter to Pope, this has to be watched.

:P

Or plant bombs. He was in the seminary, probably believed prayer was a more Christian response after deserting. JPII didn't take up arms either in Poland. He never encourage violence. I doubt if the Dali Llama would have taken up arms either, nor Mother Teresa. Joining armed resistence isn't the Catholic response the church advocates.

isn't the correct response for a future Pope, either.

(on edit)

Gandhi, MLK, Christ, those should be role models for a future Pope.

Ratzinger should have received that inspiration if he was truly destined to be Pope.

Do you think God prepared him for this position by guiding him toward the Hitler Youth and placing him in the German Army?

idolatry of a Pope is actually against the commandments..."Thou shall not have strange gods before me."

He is not my father....and I have given my last penny to a church (business) that thinks women are second class citizens.