Fascism is born out of too much religion in Gov, Communism is born out of

no religion in government, and democracy is born our of freedom of religion.

Randi just said that and I think that it is a great meme to pick up.

intelligent people on her show.

Tres Cool!

Any church who participates should have their tax exempt status revolked. I said it on the Thom Hartman Show this morning too and I posted it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1736765&mesg_id=1736765

great meme

Okay, historically, I don't think that's how it worked. Sounds like she said that just because it sounded good, but it doesn't really make any sense.

Mao: "Religion is poison." Yes, I get it that Marxism and Communism are anathema to religion. My point is that Communism doesn't develop in social environments that are free of religion *already*. If anything, it develops in environments where religion is used in a heavy-handed way by those in power to oppress people. True for Russia, maybe not so much for China, I don't know.

It's no big deal. She was trying to sound smart and said something dumb. Happens to us all.

It makes no sense. No religion in government would mean we are an enlightened society, right?

I mean, I think that's one of the few things virtually every DU'er can agree on, regardless of belief/non-belief.

Our Constitution has no god mentioned in it and the wise founders thought that separation of church and state is beneficial to a well run democracy. In other words, we are a secular nation that allows all to practice whatever religion they choose, or, no religion if they choose.

We are not Communists.

there is really no problem with religion and communism coexisting. The problem with communism is the same problem that libertarianism and anarchy have: they depend upon the perfection of the human race to work.

Fascism is born out of a merging of business and government, with religion simply used to justify the resulting oppression. Fascism ends up running the religion, not the other way around.

Democracy keeps an adversarial relationship with business, representing the people against the rich and powerful. Religion in this system is seen as something personal and private, although government steps in from time to time when it turns into a cult that harms people.

But people always say that libertarianism and anarchy need "perfect" societies to work -- but what about democracy? What about the idea of moderate left-wing government? You certainly can't account for the delusionals and freeptards, and those who are willing to hand their own asses over to "Fuck Me in the Ass, Inc."

Who says Democracy is that much better off. The anarchists in Spain did fairly good, for a while. Small-scale -- just like people always said "communism would work on a small scale." (Don't ask me who the people are).

I'm not being antagonistic, AT ALL -- but apparently -- somewhere, along the line, in the USA -- democracy grew mold and started to stink up the fridge. And I'm afraid "democracy" could get a lot worse.

(And when I say "Democracy" I'm using it as a catch-all term for our Constitutional system, state alliance and federal government).

given any more than lip service in this country. The founders set up a republic. Voting was restricted to white male landowners.

Since the civil rights movement, I believe the evidence will show that the "white wing" of the GOP has had a Plan B all along to subvert any more so-called "democracy" in this country and that was through the elimination of honest elections.

Basically the goal has now been accomplished, but people are in denial because they do not know what to do about it.

I think the traditionalist of Christendom never really were comfortable with moving beyond the notion of a "divine right of kings." That's why you see them suck up to Bush as if he were some sort of demigod almost equal to Jesus Christ (maybe even better because he's more warlike and that turns them on) in the pantheon.

Who do you think got to vote in the Greek Democracies?

Fascists may use religion to sway the masses but it is seldom the root of the fascists motivation. Neo-nazis are more bigets than anything. Early Christianity was a model of socialism until its work ethic resulted in good old capitalist mentality (I think it was closer to correct as socialism myself). The neocons are not neocons because of religion but because they like the power.

even, interestingly, traditionally liberal issues, when carried to an intolerant, totalitarian extreme could be considered "fascism."

"Supremacism" is usually used when referring to race, but I think that both religious and cultural supremacism are applicable, as well.

And, technically, fascists don't peddle in religion, they peddle in MYTHOLOGY, which, in our case, is an amalgam of four things: 1. An orthodox religion which has had to develop an internal system to rationalize exorbitant wealth and consumerism (which has basically been Christianity, from the beginning), 2. racial supremacy of the white male and 3. right-wing revisionist history and 4. Nationalism. They all combine to make a MYTHOLOGY.

Now, of course, worship of money is in there, but I think that both the worship of money and the goals of the holders of the means of production and distribution have -- the elite, not small business owners -- have an entirely different mythology, due to their wealth.

Anyway -- it's twisted as fuck. And I would argue that, rather than a hierarchy in the GOP where the "neocons" are on top, that policy is actually made by both the singular and collective ideologies and, IMHO, delusions of each faction -- that, being corpo-fascists, neoconservatives and the theocrats. I see each of them playing a different role -- but each has his or her own power base:

The neocons have the right-wing intelligensia, the Mossad (no, seriously), the "big ideas," the Strauss and a complete lack of conscience.

The theocrats have the numbers, and, both the leaders AND the rank and file, are not beholden to logic, modernity, empiricism or critical thinking. This makes them a ripe population for advancing cultural and religious supremacy and magical thinking.

The corpo-fascists have money.

Especially the first part.

Fascism has nothing to do with religion in government, and Communism's rejection of religion is somewhat incidental. Besides, even as a slogan- I think "fascism" has lost it's punch with most apolitical people. You say "fascist" and they immediately dismiss you as some kind of anarchist.

I did not hear this myself and am only taking you at your word here, but if Randi did say this it is wrong historically and does tremendous diservice to the hundreds of thousands around the globe during the latter part of the 19th Century and early 20th Century who sacrificed their lives in order to challenge the oligarchies and royals of their time where children worked in mines and mills around the world and where men and women slaved away in deplorable conditions for up to eighteen hours daily and more.

Communism and socialim were not born out of "no religion". Religion had nothing whatsoever to do with it, economics did.

And, for the record, I do not support statism, Stalinism or central planning and the rest, but nonetheless I do support accurate accounting of history.

fascism is when business runs the government, and communism is when government runs business. Religion may or may not be involved, but either way, has nothing to do with the correct definition of either system.

but there's also the emerging changes in definition, or the perceived definitions. you know, the whole orwellian shift in meanings that is occuring that demands soundbytes.

If you aim soundbytes at the "socially libertarian" RW'er -- who doesnt want government involved in anything, much less religion - and manage to somehow pull them away from the crowd of Dominionists -- I think you could put a serious dent in the retardo-armor that has proved impervious to logic, reason, or conformity to "definition".

of incorrect definitions is best confronted by using words correctly. When people increase the use of incorrect definitions, they merely help create an environment when words lose power.

that's certainly one way it could work.

but i thought we were talking about modern day America, I'm sorry.

become more "intellectually inquisitive" by being introduced to errors disguised as truth. So it really is still the exact same issue, regardless of if it is "modern day America" or some fantasy that has never existed. People can not rise to greater heighths by being misinformed, no matter how "sincere" the person who misinforms may believe themselves to be.

i do admire your purity. i certainly would vote for you in a perfect world.

Religion should not be forced on anyone. GOD believes in freedom of religion. GOD doesn't force Himself on anyone. Jesus didn't go door to door or into people's homes, He never forced anyone to listen to His Word, He made Himself available in public places and people followed Him.
The Bible DOES give excellent advice about choosing leaders in Proverbs though....
Personally, I know them by their fruits. I look for Love, Peace, Joy, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Patience, and Self-Control, in Leaders, Politicians, People...

I oppose fascism and believe GOD does even MORE.

Not to "force my religion on you", that's just why I form an opinion that religion and government should be kept seperate, especially when their self-proclaimed "Chhristianity" is not Christ-like...
Loving, upright, just, and honest.

but is factually baseless. That's why I never listen to her.

I'd hardly say the rise of the Bolsheviks in Tsarist Russia was a consequence of too little religion in government.

Too much focus on religion everywhere, DU as well, and too little focus on corporate governance. That's the rub the religion angle is meaningless. However I'm sure the globalizers are happy to see the peasants debating the latest in religion.

The 14 characteristics are:


1-Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottoes, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


2-Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.


3-Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.


4-Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.


5-Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.


6-Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.


7-Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.




8-Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.


9-Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


10-Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .


11-Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12-Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.


13-Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.


14-Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRI411A.html

with religion as corporatism.


And communism could be a very religious way of governance - just depending.