Pity, such a wealthy nation has such little Art and Culture appreciation.

I just returned from a trip to Mexico and was amazed at how artistic and happy the Mayan descendent's were. Despite living in thatched roof homes the size of an average American bathroom they make the most beautifully colored textiles and paintings.

They appreciate and honor the great Mayan civilization that once flourished there. There was something remarkable about talking to a Mayan who went out of his way to tell me that the fall of Chichen Itza was probably due more to a peasant revolt than the European invasion.

Most Americans probably have no clue which Indian tribe lived in their particular area pre-Europeans. Is it even taught in schools anymore?

America seems to have this haughty idea that it is the Center of the Universe in Art and Culture (especially Hollywood and NYC), yet what does it really produce? It supplies the world with our own narcissistic, navel-gazing, neurotic, gun-orgy-violence, sexcapades, golden-ring chasing, anorexic, Thomas Kincade, melodramatic, fake-reality, gotta-have useless soul-devouring gadgets, Perfect-house-dressers, reproductions-made-in-China, we're the hippest, most up-to-date computer animation in your face, Crapola.

Now before the real artists out there berate me....I'm a visual artist myself. I understand first hand how little art appreciation there is. I recently had a wealthy woman haggle me over a $25 small piece of art I made for her and that was after she told me she bought a used pinball machine on ebay for $1500 for her new rec room addition.

Hand made is just that. It takes time and skill for artists and artisans to produce quality works that are one of a kind.

Never mind, I don't pity this nation anymore.

Can't walk down the street in Louisiana without tripping over an artist or artisan.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

Sure there are lots of great artists making art in every state of the USA. But guess what? They are living in their freaking vans going from show to show where people are asking them to sell at cost.

If you think the majority of artists in America are happy and selling, well, let's just say I disagree.

Americans spend more on mass produced shit than they do on real artists and the money usually goes towards a middle man. Fact.

Most Americans have little regard for art or artists unless they're producing kitsch crappola they can buy from QVC to match the color of their livingroom couch. Producing real art is damned hard work. Its not only labor intensive but expensive (how many folks have ever shopped for quality art materials of any kind?) Too many of those who can at least appreciate quality work want to buy it on the cheap, as if artists should be satisfied that anyone is really willing to pay anything at all for art. There are still those out there who are good patrons, but to find them is a job in itself.

It always amazes me the number of folks in this country who think nothing of plunking down 50 grand for some stupid SUV they might drive for five years, yet you'd have to pull their fingernails out with pliers before they'd spend even 100 dollars on a work of art they could enjoy for a lifetime. It makes my head spin with frustration just thinking about it.

an interview I just read in Salon: http://salon.com/books/int/2005/04/21/florida/index_np.html

where the interviewee was saying that if the US doesn't start to value and reward the "creative class," those folks will leave the US, and how that's *not* a good thing. I myself am a book artist (original and found) and I am certainly not going to berate you. I earn far more repairing books than by selling the art ones.

I like that! Check your PM.

And to go even further, these days, I pretty much rebuke everything that this country has turned into. I'm a Meta-Citizen; I'm not a citizen of The United States of Americorp.(TM). I'm a citizen of the world, if truth be told -- in its ideals, cultures, histories, and wonderment.

How come every time I've been to a foreign country, the people are so much nicer, more welcoming and lacking any sort of attitude? (I have only been to Ireland, Canada, and Germany, and they all were wonderful.)

How come ignorance and freakdom rule the roost here?

How come I'm supposed to support, encourage, or otherwise praise lack of class, manners, or civility?

How come I'm supposed to buy into the consumerist crap?

How come this country has turned into a drug-downing, pill-popping, alcoholic, ragefest?

How come real art, music, dance, and high culture are sneered at, scoffed at, and harassed?

How come intellectual freedom frightens Americans so much?

I have a lot of questions I demand be answered by this society.

a few years back (23 so still developing) did a 180 and cherish anything cultural.

Ain't this self-expression, too?












Ok, how about rapping?

European ART:




American ART:


American (f)art:

and show you some real American art. I don't know how to post pictures but I will let your mind do the rest since you do know there are real artists out there.

If it is to imply that there actually is serious American art, you'll get no argument from me.

The OP, as I understood it, was about the **value** we place on art. And in that, as a nation, we fail. Our government has been cutting any remaining funding for arts faster than they've been cutting taxes.

If you want true American art from the days when it was **valued**, how about, as but one example, the bridges from the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut? In the Depression, rather than see artists starve, FDR funded them with public commissions. Each of these bridges is a unique design and, today, are true American treasures. Each was done by an artist who would have otherwise starved. Here are some vignettes of them:



Go to this website for more ....
http://www.past-inc.org/historic-bridges/merritt-right.html

Or look inside our (formerly) public buildings in DC built in the same era and see the marvelous murals there. Like this one:

See their website for more ......
http://www.doi.gov/museum/murals/

There is much more .... from back when our country **valued** art and artists.

Not like we do now:

I believed that you were making a statement say that the Nascar painting was the height of American artistic achievement today.

As to the rest of your statement I believe what FDR did through the WPA in hiring artists, playwrights, writers and even puppet makers was fantastic and added and helped foster our artistic heritage. But it was a special case and no longer needed. I like to keep my government no matter who is running it far away from my art of any type. Outside of funding for museums I want to keep its hands off. Because funding in the governments mind equals control and I don't want that.

Would that we as a culture valued it in a way that art could flourish without government subsidy. Sadly, a good deal of privately funded art winds up being a corporate statement rather than a true appreciation of the arts. The "Nissan Series from the East Bumfuck Symphony" (were it to exist), for example. I am certain the artists are proud of their work and work hard to produce it. I am also sure the audience appreciates it. But a corporation? I suspect it is more about a photo on the do-good page of their annual report (which likely cost more than the symphony sponsorship) than any altruistic appreciation of the art. Sadly, Americans, as a culture, would rather watch Survivor or NASCAR than a ballet.

And as a culture we're all the poorer for that. Were our government to not so much pay for art directly as create a climate that shows the value of art, that notion, I am certain, could be reversed.

removed from Rockefeller Center in NYC at an art show:



"Tumbling Woman" (9/11)

The irony is that Picasso's Guernica also had the same fate.

After the 1910-1920 Revolution, the Mexican government sponsored specifically Mexican art. The work of the Muralistas is most famous--some quite political, but all celebrating Mexican themes. They influenced the American mural movement, as seen in many WPA projects. In fact, some Americans trained with Diego Rivera.



But this was not foisted upon the Mexican people. They do appreciate art--from their prehistoric roots to the modern works hung in international galleries.

In fact, we have the NEA--hardly funded & under attack. And art education in schools is considered a frill--it's not On The Test!

But art can enrich even a poor country.

for art in schools. We should be ashamed of ourselves. If we don't expose our children to art, the arts themselves will fail. Serious art will be reduced from .... well ..... serious art to the application of rubber paints on sweat shirts that women like my mother, (who I loved and miss dearly) did for every holiday. Not to diminish her efforts - they were done for the joy and the love of it - but our culture needs more.

Of course .... we don't have Maplethorpe anymore, do we, Senator Helms? .... ya fuckwad.

always go back to Mapplethorpe and Serrano. Most people have no idea what else these artists have produced, let alone the good work that the NEA does in supporting literacy and the arts.

The NEA supports so many efforts, from new classes to independent publishers to museums, dance, etc.

I have no idea whatever how that "please visit http colon slash slash dubdubdub dot anvari dot org" got into my post, at the very bottom above my clownie face..

The dogs playing poker!

As in immigrant to the United States, I came with a deep admiration for Walt Whitman and Tennessee Williams, jazz and funk and architecture, roots and blues, Bob Dylan and Woodie Guthrie, postmodern painting. I think even more saddening than the lack of the arts is the homogenization of culture. You see the same glass and green metal strip malls in every community; you hear the same commerical stations on the radio with the same crap in every city. It has never been easy for artists to earn a living, but this is rather a different phenomenon altogether.

"It has never been easy for artists to earn a living..."

Yet, there has never been a time of more wealth in America. And I stand as one artist who has done tent shows. People want you to basically give it to them. I know a photographer who has sold for years and he had to skip the matted artwork for small prints in the last 3 years. Folks either don't have the money, or they are being cheapskates.

All because of our wonderful roaring economy I guess...

And everytime a Republican is elected, I cringe -- because it means cuts in arts funding and arts in schools.

When school arts are cut, it prevents people from growing up with skills and knowledge that can enrich and balance their lives, and it also reduces future audiences.

When arts funding is cut, it heavily impacts small groups doing great new things; and while the NY City Ballet and the Metropolitan Opera will survive, tickets costs alone -- even for regional performing groups -- keep far too many people away. :(

with an appreciation of art

I shall never forget showing my 1000 Masterpieces art book to a ceretain young girl (early teen age) and her only comment was


"those people are nekkid"

she told me she likes to read so I gave her some books

she "accidentally" left them laying on my sofa

where do you start with these young people?

Art should be in the curriculum. Period. Just like Gym should be in the curriculum. Period.

What I want to know, is what the hell are they teaching in place of these things? I don't have kids, so I honestly don't know.

of the religious right. Is this your perception as well? I don't think I am imagining this, Sparkly.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.
Jeb Bush calls author of bill banning professors from being too liberal as a "freedom fighter"
A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes


http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

this country has lost its artistic soul. Granted there are some genious, albeit, largely unknown musicians and visual artists.

As for the creation of original art, and what people think it's worth:

I feel your pain. As a performer, I provide entertainment for private parties in the form of a concert comprised of all original music. No two shows are exactly alike, and since I use digital instruments, I can virtually create huge ensemble works.

Around christmas is when I usually get busy. So I'll get a call from someone saying, "I'm having a party, what do you charge to come play for 2 hours.

I say, "Well, I charge 500.00 for 2 hours, and 100.00 for each additional hour. I perform all original music and provide you with a CD recording of your show."

Some will book the gig, and some will say, "Wow! I only budgeted 50-75 dollars for the music." (btw, it's usually a really rich person who says this)

Then I say, "What is it that you do for a living, my friend"

-"oh I'm a physician (or lawyer, or CEO, or something"

"Ok, you're a physician, so you were trained for 8 years or more to do what you do, and you are compensated extremely well for it. I've been trained for 20 years to do what I do, to create original music/art, and you want me for next to nothing? Tell me, if I thought your services were only worth 50.00 to me, would I get them at that price?

Either they hang up, or book the gig. If they hang up, you probably didn't want to play for them anyhow.

So were my parents. Something my Dad once told me: "People will try to talk you into giving away your work, because they believe your talent was given to you by God, at no cost -- so they think you should give it away as freely as you received it. Don't do it."

these people wouldn't mind paying thousands of dollars potentially on football tickets...but music? eh...anyone can do it.

If your clients want music for $50, tell 'em to buy a few CDs. (What do DJs charge these days?!)

forum for awhile, and I must say that.

:toast:

:)

We're a kinda Beauty and the Beast act. With a little seltzer thrown in - or squirted down yer pantz - just for laughs. :hi:

a symphony concert or opera (both very expensive to produce), but then turn right around and drop $30 or $50 for a rock concert or a basketball game.

I really hate the way the arts are belittled and ignored in this country.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.
Jeb Bush calls author of bill banning professors from being too liberal as a "freedom fighter"
A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes

Jazz is the marvelous confluence of the slave experience with the vitality and freedom of expression of the American ideal, and the true meeting ground of black and white artists. It's arguably our greatest gift to the world, but for many decades the US market has refused to support it, forcing some of the best artists to other parts of the world to make their living and their artistic contribution.

Like any art, it requires some exposure and study to flourish. We are poorer for having cut it loose to sink or swim in the sea of popularity.

Have you ever heard the Alan(?) Lomax tapes (aluminum disk recordings, actually) from the early part of the last century? Untrained genius at its height. If you ever saw The General's Daughter, the opening music (Sea Lion Woman, or C-Line Woman - nobody knows the correct name, not even Lomax) is from that marvelous treasury he spent years gathering. I think there's an early Jelly Roll Morton song among them too.

We are culturally impoverished if we lose what came before .... and in particular, what is yet to come.

...Everything you said, and more, is true. However, I think the regular Joe is scared by a great deal of jazz. Shame, too, because it could do everyone a world of good if they would merely take what it has to give.


spontaneous. never ordinary.
completely genuine.
JAZZ
born in america. enjoyed
worldwide.

:shrug:

dropping over $100 per ticket for a big arena show, but complain about a $30 ticket to see a jazz legend at a small club. They may love the music/musicians equally, but somehow the big arena validates the high ticket price in their minds.

in real time, while the big arena show is just another corporate experience that taps into the "herd mentality" of mass consumption. To listen to the jazz musician is an engaging and challenging activity, while the only challenge in the arena is dealing with the crowd and the parking.

I feel intense frustration over the emphasis, pushed by the media, on a dollar value for everything and the power that goes along with the money. There's such an emphasis on getting ahead, getting power, being popular, that it's all very soul-deadening.

Take the way radio and television are handled. There's a huge emphasis on winning the viewers who will become loyal to the brands promoted in the commercials, etc., etc., etc. And if you don't fit in the demographic, too bad.

And then there's the attitude towards any sort of art and any public funding of it. I remember starting a thread on arts funding way back on Salon (when they had a free forum), and you'd have thought I was advocating we take all of our tax dollars and send them to Robert Mapplethorpe.

Yet I don't hear a lot of screaming about our spending literally billions of dollars on new ways to kill people.

I don't think Americans are indifferent to art, but I do think we're in desperate need of a cultural retuning concerning it. In my perfect world, every kid would be exposed to a wide variety of music, plus live theater, architecture, paintings, sculpture, etc., plus a chance to do something creative themselves.

By the way, I didn't even realize that Little Theater was a movement until I read about it in my book of literary terms (a souvenir of graduate school). My parents, aunt and uncle, and even my dentist were all active in local Little Theater, and it was my first real exposure to the performing arts. I simply loved it.

There are some great smaller theater groups in cities throughout the U.S., and while some of the performances might be a snooze, a lot of them are great entertainment and fun to watch.

A movement? Please explain! :hi:

Waiting for Guffman? Its a sendup of little theater. A small film, probably still available in Blockbuster's center-of-the-store racks under 'Comedy'. Sparkly and I were rolling on the floor watching it.



My son did some little theater in Baltimore. They have a 'Playwright's Festival' in many of the little 30 seat theaters that are in the Fells Point area. Once a year it is an opportunity for playwrights from anywhere to stage their work. Experienced and aspiring directors alike schmooze (I suppose) for the director's gigs and then they hold mass auditions for actors and cast all the plays the same day. He did several of those. Lot's of serious producers are in town - all of them with those funny glasses attached to rubber noses and mustaches, so no one recognizes them! It is a well supported event locally and, for us, a truly rich season.



And then we have our in-house diva, Sparkly, Jr., who's been on stage since she was 2 in one venue or another. Print ads, school theater, singing ..... and even a bit of dancing.

Cracked me up on more than one occasion. My S/O watched it more times than I did, but I've seen it at least three times.

I'm so happy to be corresponding with you and Sparkly.

Check this out:

http://www.pamelahadas.com/

I liked that!

Thank you.

on the arts.

I attended a dance performance, and in the lobby, we were asked to fill out a survey, telling where we were from, whether we had traveled to Minneapolis specifically for this performance or were Minneapolis residents or were in town for some other purpose but happened to see the performance as well. We were also asked how much money we had spent in the course of the evening on meals, parking, child care, new clothes, etc.

The idea was to prove to the legislature that support for the arts has economic value.

Everything boils down to money nowadays.

This society is really sick.

Art of all kinds nurtures critical thinking, the ability to make connections, and above all, imagination.

Americans have, it seems to me, been well credited with ingenuity and imagination throughout the brief American history. We're losing that now. Mass media have taken the place of the book or the painting or the dance.

I write short stories, and I teach writing. I am depressed by the lack of imagination on the part of many students. They have trouble making connections, via critical thinking but especially via the channeling of creativity, which is a bit tougher, but which should be natural. Our pop culture/money driven media has all but controlled a significant portion of our population in recent years. Look at what Husb2Sparkly has posted, and you'll see what I mean. Take the time to look at these things and make connections. It was great of him to post them.

I like to take classes in my spare time, and while some of the basic business courses, such as accounting, have been helpful to me in my own self-employment, so much of what passes for "continuing education" these days is various permutations of "how to make your employees work harder" or "how to streamline your business processes" or "how to fool people into buying your worthless crap."

On some days, I feel so alienated from my own country.

I actually dreaded coming back to the US. It was so refreshing to not watch any TV or read any newspapers for a week. Didn't miss a thing!

The sad reality is that most Americans are pack animals that are becoming more conformist than I thought possible. That's why Thomas Kincade is so popular and rich. And that sports painter (can't recall his name now)...I took a kitchen tour once that was a fundraiser for the local public radio station. One home was a huge mansion - probably a $2-3 million behemoth. Granite counters, Italian marble everywhere, fancy furniture and silk drapes. Then the artwork - Yee-ech! They could obviously afford huge paintings by contemporary artists in any genre, yet they had all this kitschy sports pseudo-impressionistic art on the walls.

Americans don't seem to want to think for themselves. You don't have to have a college degree in Art History to recognize good art, it helps, but it's not a necessity. I think it's a general laziness...people don't want to read too much about political issues to make an informed decision...they'd rather have Rush tell them what to think. They also buy Mercedes thinking they are the best, when they consistently rank low on JD Powers list for quality and reliability. So I suppose Art is just another extension of this mentality.

Of course everyone has a right to their own bad taste.

Art and Culture are not easily marketted. At least not high art and culture. It takes too much education and exposure to learn the ins and outs of such matters. Thus the Corporations favor short attention spans. Things which can be chopped up and sold in controlled distribution channels.

Furthermore Art and Culture draw society together. In the end they are means of communication of ideas between artists and people. They lay at the foundation of cultural identity. This creates strong individuals that are not as easily swayed by advertisment and marketting plans. Its much more difficult to sell cheap products to a people that have some level of connectivity with each other and a sense of satisfaction.

Corporations rely on consumers feeling need. Art fills that need and blocks their hold on the people.

I saw something yesterday saying that *all* the Hugo nominees for best science fiction novel of 2004 are British -- along with a link to someone suggesting that this is because the British can still imagine alternative futures, while the Americans seems to have lost their ability to imaging anything beyond (1) American rules the world or(2) everything goes boom.

This is particularly sad because science fiction, like jazz, was a quintessentially American art form, devoted to expanding the limits of the possible. If Americans have forgotten how to do that, it's no wonder none of the arts are flourishing here.

There is no culture here, is there? When I visit other countries, there's a huge difference. America seems too superficial and self absorbed and of course, money obsessed.

My professional association is a worldwide organization. Among the events we hold is an annual meeting and conference in the US. Usually in September. Until recently, all of them were in the US (2/5 of our membership is non-North American). I was honored to be elected president back in the Clinton years (when the US still had standing in the larger world). In that role, I attended a regional conference held in Amsterdam by our European members and a similar conference held in Singapore by our Asian members. For both, the entire tenor of the events was so dramatically different from that here in the US.

Our keynote speaker: high paid coroporate feel-good yakker

Amsterdam "keynote" speaker: A string quartet as background to a schmooze session, with (quite spontaneous) applause after each piece

Singapore 'keynote' speaker: an aussie speaking of the fusion cuisine that developing in their country, with demonstrations and tastings.

Our venue: Walt Disney Swan Hotel

Amsterdam venue: the venerable and historis Hotel Krasnapolski (sp?), right across the square from the royal palace

Singapore venue: the venerable and historic Raffles Hotel

Some cultures 'get it' and some cultures just want to 'get theirs' .... yanno?

(since that year, the society has been rotating conference locations to include non-US sites ... thanks to yours truly being a royal fucking pain in the ass about it .... and now .... they're more highly attended than they ever were ..... its the culture, stoopit! ..... and I don't mean Dannon's(tm))

The wealth in this country is going to the top 1%, or it's going out of the country to finance the budget and current account deficits. The race to the bottom has accelerated under Bushitler. When (or if) he leaves office in 2008, we will be a pathetic shell of the country I once knew as a kid in the 50s or a college student in the 60s.

they dont support the arts themselves....

if they really cared, they'd fill the gap in arts education in the public schools.... art needs an appreciative milieu to thrive in...

Mt Everest just doesnt exist on the prairies....it exists in the Himalyas!

I graduated from The Ohio State University. Guess where all the money went? When my art studio caught on fire and burned up a lot of paintings (fortunately not mine) they just left it like that - unusable for a year. Why did I pay the same tuition as the football players? If Sports is what brings money into the school, they should have a sliding fee scale for the different departments.

It's a disgrace that the richest nation on earth has cut Art and Music classes from public education. Hell, the way things are going why don't they just send five year olds to Junior training at the local factory or McDonalds....maybe we can lower the age to enter the workforce too.

In my experience the wealthiest clients have been the stingiest. In fact I personally know of a lawyer who buys up tons of art dirt cheap at online auctions so he can rotate the art in his office on the cheap. While it is a good thing he is buying unknown artists and giving them some validation, it's a disturbing mindset that he only sees the artwork as a decoration. An office doo-dad.

we see that most civilaztions have operated in this same manner. Many of Mozarts compositions, for example, were commissioned by the wealthy.
Somewhere along the line we (the human race) were convinced that art has no practical value and therefore is not really important.
All great art, and the art we make (pastels/pencil/charcoal for me), is thought of as a luxury.
It's a constant battle to wrest the $50 bucks or so from someone who may just as likely spend it on a mass produced 'something' that will wear out or break within a year or two. My art will look the same 30 years from now. :shrug:

It is a battle. I am completely overwhelmed sometimes by how rude people treat me. When I do the outdoor festivals it is shocking to see what people buy. They will try to get my prices down (and they are already pretty damn low) for my framed originals, then not buy if I don't negotiate. I'll watch them go over to the booth across the way and pay the same amount for a PRINT. A reproduction of someone's original. I know I'm not alone....everyone has been struggling the last few years.

I don't try to sell in galleries anymore because the commission pisses me off. But why is it that people don't understand if they buy art in a gallery they're giving 50% of the cash to the damned owner?! Then if they buy it directly from the artist they expect it to be marked down even more. Why do they feel so free to rip us off?

Not to mention Brittney Spears, "God Bless Amurka", the Crystal Cathedral, Hummers, WalMart, and the glorious decor of televangelists.

As a fiber artist, I am at the point where I can't justify weaving anything for income. My handwoven pieces are compared to items sold in Walmart- and other venues for cheap crap textiles. So, I pretty much create art for art's sake, gifts and to satisfy my creativity. I can't count on selling anything unless it's really inexpensive.
Example: "Why should I pay $120.00 for your hand painted and hand woven chenille scarf when I can buy it at Target for $20.00?" I hate to say it, but I don't have the energy to answer that question anymore...

Ever been to Gatlinburg, TN? There should be big illuminated warning signs as you get near that place that say ALERT - HIGH CRAFT WARNINGS JUST AHEAD. This place (as well as Pigeon Forge) is a country crafter's wet dream. Americans seem to go gaga for their kitschy-campy doodads and brick-a-brack and just about every small town I've ever been in, from coast to coast, seems to have a country craft outlet or "gallery". But, alas, you are correct. Most Americans don't appreciate real art. Rose scented toothpick holders, quail's egg XMAS tree ornaments, toll painted mass produced decorative boxes, lawn fannies and cute garden doopas are what most Americans see as high art. Yeah I know I'm an elitist, but if any fool can learn to make something by taking a single two hour continuing adult education class, its a craft. Stop calling that shit art. Those are crafts, and much of it pure junk