Remember the handcuffed girl?

On Countdown tonight we found out her mother wouldn't let anyone touch her. She was called and couldn't come. So now, just what would you have the school do? I still think that the cops should have refrained from handcuffing her, but I can't fault the school for calling the police in this instance. I honestly can't see what else could have been done under those circumstances.

the school should have solved this problem beforehand by refusing to allow her to come into school until she knew how to behave, or had someone to pick her up.

This wasn't the first time she behaved this way, from what I've read.

You don't call the police on five year old children acting out. Unless they have actual weapons. This reminds me of parents who spank their children because "nothing else works". Funny, but some parents don't spank their kids and their kids are disciplined. Same thing here, IMO. The best a dozen trained educators could think of to solve the problem is to call the police? :eyes:

That's just crazy, using handcuffs.

When I was a social worker in San Bernardino, I was asked regularly by cops if I wanted a child 'cuffed.' I always said, "No!"

One kid threatened to kill me as her father and mother were being arrested; I just told we were going to visit Grandma, and get an ice cream first. She just started smiling, and we went and got that ice cream.

Wait, I think that happened with two kids, and it worked both times. It doesn't matter how old you are - you like ice cream! As soon as I mentioned 'ice cream,' it wasn't about control anymore.

I don't care how much they edited out of the film. If four adults can't handle a recalcitrant 5 year old, none of them deserve their positions of authority--including the mom.

the school can't just not let her go. When she acted up, the school called the mother WHO COULDN'T COME AND GET HER. I put that in caps as it is in my original post and you apparently didn't see it. I fail to see what the school was supposed to do. The cops, on the other hand, are a different story.

I hear that she couldn't come *that day*. I'm saying the school should have taken care of the problem before it started--there should have been a parent conference, for example. She has the right to an education, but so do the other kids, in a safe environment, which she is preventing. Even without this problem, at my kid's school we are required to list a local contact who can pick up our kid when we cannot.

On *that* day, I find it incredibly hard to believe, as I just edited my post to say, that a dozen trained educators could not have a)seen that this behavior was about to begin, b)de-escalate (uh, is that a word, LOL?) the behavior as it started, and c)thought of any other solution other than "touching" her or calling the police.

I've had to deal with a few out of control kids that didn't belong to me, and at no time did I even consider calling law enforcement.

and I have no idea how many contacts most school require. Mine only asks for one. As to the rest, as you point out the other students have a right to an education. She was out of control and since the parent refuses to let anyone deal with her, and couldn't deal with her, the school had no real option left.

out, or at the very least suspended. Our principal has said that is indeed an option for her (and she has pre-school/kindergarten kids).

They should do that before getting the police involved, IMO!

but with no one to pick her up, they couldn't just let her walk home.

re: "just let her walk home."

The schools have a responsibility to keep our kids safe and inside the gates of the school until a responsible adult can pick them up and take them home. If every kid who ever acted out at school was handcuffed and put into a paddy wagon, our jails would be full . . . of five-year-olds.

I had a teacher in the second grade who put me in a dark closet, told me to sit in there with my legs straight out and then closed the door. Of course I didn't keep my legs straight but being in that closet for awhile didn't harm me in any way. (That I'm consciously aware of anyway.) Another time I was made to sit in the hallway because my skirt was considered to be too short (4th grade). Elementary school for me was full of visits to the principal's office and physical (painful) abuse by a couple of sick bastards but the police were never called to haul me down to the hoosgow. My point in all of this is that there WERE other options available. Suspend her indefinitely and stick her in a room away from her classmates until school was over and an adult could come and get her. Take her to the library and give her a book to read. If that didn't work, put her in an empty closet with a stuffed animal or some other toy and close the door. She was sitting quietly when the police came. They didn't need the cops and they never should have called them. Hell, if they really felt the need to call someone on the outside, they could have called an ambulance. For all they knew, the girl was acting out because she was in some kind of pain. They blew it. Their inability to psychologically outwit a five-year-old girl speaks volumes.

TYY

she was raging in the office and then sat down and decided to look angelic when she heard someone say 'the police are here'.

or google it. I am sure it is all over the internet.

Watch both.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml

Are you kidding?

She was being disobedient, sure....but raging? That's an exaggeration.
Raging, to me, means screaming, shouting, punching, etc.

She wasn't raging.

The video came from her now-former lawyer. From the descriptions of the adults in the situation, she was trashing the classroom, screaming, hitting, kicking, and all. Then, they removed her to the principal's office, which she proceeded to trash. That's when they called the police. They removed her from the situation, which should've been enough to redirect her, and it didn't work.

Teachers and admins are really not able to even touch students in most states--not even to restrain someone dangerous to herself and others, oftentimes. The video seems silly, with adults saying over and over to stop, but legally, that's all they can do. It makes breaking up fights and dealing with out-of-control kids really hard.

Having been a teacher, I feel bad for everyone involved. That kid needs serious help, the mom is probably overwhelmed (couldn't come get her because of work, I'd bet), and the school can only do so much legally. I hope they manage to get her help.

I say 4.

not the best option, I do have to say that you apparently have very little knowledge of how little rights and remedies teachers and most low level school administrators have these days. From the teachers and counselors I have represented, I can tell you that these little angels can do things such as razorblade other students' backpacks and threaten to do the same to other students without ever really suffering repurcussions. Superintendents and school boards are too afraid of the threat of lawsuits, and this generation of parents (my own generation in fact) has by and large taken it upon themselves to decide that that their little dears can do no wrong. Public school teachers are left with very few options and usually no support from their Superintendent or the parents. It's an atrocious situation.

Additionally, one can not simply be "kicked out" of school, rightfully so. There are due process considerations involved, as there should be lest children start getting expelled simply for the political beliefs of their parents (just as an example). Even in cases such as this where the student acted physically/violently, the school must still ensure that its procedures are followed to the letter.

And again, even when due process concerns have been satisfied and the student and parent(s) have been afforded every opportunity to be heard, most Superintendents and school boards are too chicken to stand by the decision of the teacher/counselor/principal, and instead bow to pressure from the parent(s). Even had she been "kicked out" she likely would be back in school the next morning, after an often noisy, public tirade of the parent.


I certainly don't blame this little girl for her behavior, as she is just a child. She seems to have some sort of issues, either at home or at school and has not been taught how to deal with her feelings appropriately, and she certainly seemed terrified of the police once they arrived. She probably now needs even further counseling from a secondary trauma of this incident. But I don't blame the school officials either, as they had already been told by the parent not to touch the girl and were left with no other options- because of the parent. Those of you saying that they could have done something else have obviously never been in that situation, knowing that if you touch the child you're fired and if you don't restrain her and she injures herself or others, you're equally screwed. You really don't know how you would have acted or even what all the facts of the situation were. But I guess it's just too easy to blame the public schools and the teachers and say that they should know better. Well, they likely do, but again had been told by the parent to leave the child alone. I don't think some of you realize the types of parents our teachers are dealing with today.

From everything I've seen in this case, it is certainly sounding like another parent acting in complete defense of the child without acknowledging the problems she has (or even being the cause of her troubles?). And regardless of what the parent might think, that kind of behavior/defense is not good for her daughter. So, while I try to withhold judgment until all the facts are in, I'd say that it's starting to look like it's the parent's fault. Yet again.

And yes, I am a parent.

Ok, flame away. :)

I keep reading this in this thread.

What else could they have done, the poor school, since they can't touch her??

Are you guys seriously saying that the only solution available to the school is to "touch" a kid or call police? Honestly?

I have to ask, again, whether people have actually watched these videos. She wasn't screaming, or even moving very fast. I have seen much, much worse.

How about engaging this girl? How about asking her *why* she won't sit down? Trying to distract her/engage in another activity?

Wow. Just...wow.

and doesn't tell the whole story. The mother has called on the police in the past (at 3yrs) because she couldn't control the girl. Anyway teachers are not even allowed to "hug" a child in Florida, plus it's difficult to simple "expell' a child here. The system is messed up
(you can thank Jeb for that) Who do you think teaches in those schools with the way the funding is for Teachers and Education here in Florida and then consider the population you're dealing with!

The mother is messed up, HRS is messed up (you can thank Jeb for that as well), otherwise they would have been able to save this child from her mother along time ago.

It doesn't matter now anymore... she has been evicted from her appartment since March 31st. After her "paid for interview" she's fired her attorney, took the kid out of the school and has moved out of Florida. And the whole thing will start all over again somewhere else.

she has every right to do whatever her little heart desires. it was just a 5 year old temper tantrum.

I work in schools and can site chapter and verse. Education is a right. We can suspend students but we can and have been sued to justify said suspensions. Assuming that her behavior is somehow linked to some special education status, then the school can only suspend her for a limited number of days.

and it should be noted that many states, including Texas since then, have ruled the opposite way on funding. But when it comes to a right to attend the public school, there is one.

at least once the child is 6 (most states).

"...parents and legal guardians may be prosecuted in a criminal court if their child fails to attend school. Florida Statutes, Section 232.19 states that a parent or guardian who refuses or fails to have their child attend school regularly, or who refuses or fails to comply the interventions offered by the school of the Department of Juvenile Justice. A parent or guardian who violates this provision may be punished by up to six months in jail and a $500 fine. "


http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/commsrvs/pay/parentLiability.asp

She may not have been emtionally ready for school at that point. If these kinds of problems have been going on I could see the teachers and mom getting together. Let the mom know the kid isn't ready and to bring her back next year. It's not unusual.

My boy almost repeated because they weren't sure he was emotionally ready, but he did a turnabout and has done great for the last two to three months.

I thought on forms kids had to fill out at school they had to have at least a second person on there to call in case of an emergency like that (on mine my dad and a family friend were on mine). The people on the list were also allowed to check you out of school for some reason.

A mother who won't pick up her child should have to go and explain to child welfare why she chose not to be responsible for her child.

I would think they would have been called before the cops, or at least would have been there WITH the cops.

solution please spell it out.

I don't have to provide a solution, because I have not received years of training on child development, psychology, etc., that school administrators are supposed to receive. If they do not receive this training, they should. If the best they can do is "let's just call the police on the five year old".....that's sad.

I will say again that the major failure on the school's part was not dealing with her behavior *before* this happened.

The school is now forbidden to touch the child, and they've had issues with the mother who has HERSELF called the police.

The school doesn't have a lot of power in addressing her behavior.

parents can't or won't do with one or two: raise them to respect people and get along.

There are some kids who are just too disruptive to be allowed to continue their behavior. When the admin cannot touch the child to restrain her, and the parent is unable to come and get her, well, I am waiting for an answer too... Just what is to be done besides call authorities?

Agree with you, not a straw man but the very root of the situation. Calling it a straw man was the straw man ;)

300 pound 30 year olds, but I've yet to hear any of these ideas layed out.

Actually, I could launch into a whole side issue of what "the cops" mean to this little girl, which is probably why she was sitting when they got there.

I wasn't sure if "straw man" was the right term. :)

Seriously, though, without knowing what set her off, it's hard to give concrete alternative solutions to this particular situation--because the solution would have to do with the cause of the problem.

I'd love to know that, what set her off.

that much.

Whatever it is, the school has to deal with it. So how do they do that with a child they can't touch who is totally out of control?

From the way y'all were talking I was sure that girl was frantic, lashing out, etc. If *that's* out of control, whoa!

And here's what they could have done.

In the video where she's in the classroom, the teacher says No no no no no no no stop stop stop stop stop don't don't don't. At that point, the only thing the girl is doing is walking around, taking things out, ripping up stuff. Very calmly, I may add. The teacher goes "she's having a tantrum".

Not one time does the teacher ask her WHY she's doing that. Not once does anyone redirect her attention by getting her involved in another activity or try a "I have something interesting over here, but you can only do it if you sit down."

She didn't go swiping at the teacher until the teacher took her off the table (no, the teacher shouldn't have left her on the table). And they weren't animated punches, either.

Summer camp counselors I've known could have handled that better!

Instead of doing any of that, they just called the police??

They can't. Anyone who thinks that kids was "frantic" and "throwing punches" just doesn't know real kids too well. That was one of the calmest "tantrums" I've ever seen. And again, as you pointed out, NO ONE does anything to try to stop the girl. They block her path, bark repeated orders to "stop" without any consequence...the whole thing is surreal. ANY KID will act out when he sees a video camera. If you don't believe me, crank up your cam-corder in front of a group of five year olds and see how they react. I'm just dumbfounded at some of the responses to this thread! From supposedly liberal-minded people who are expecting children not to act like children, and supporting the actions of adults who act like hapless teenagers on their first babysitting job!

2 of them thank you. And I managed to get them to adult status. I don't know what this child's problem was or what was making her behave as she did but when mom says don't touch my child and I can't come get her I think the school was right to call in the police. What else would you have them do? Put her in a closet? Then mom could sue you for locking her child up. Physically restrain her? Then mom could sue you because you touched her child after express orders not to had been given. I don't know if anyone has noticed or not but this country has become a sue happy, irresponsible, politically correct to the extreme, lazy, selfish sense of entitlement kind of place.

As for the assumptions of this is a financially challenged family who probably didn't have access to health care and mental health coverage I call bullshit. This is nothing but an excuse being made. An excuse I might add some seem to be making for someone they know nothing about. Everyone these days has an excuse as to why they are the victim and should be given a pass.

Before the flame fest starts, I will state that I was/am a single mother with one of those cheap jobs and when the school calls concerning my child, I don't give a rats ass about that job. My kids come first. And yes, I am no different than any of the others out there with a cheap ass job with no benefits. But somehow I managed to be responsible for my children, keep them fed, and provided mental health treatment (my oldest was hell on wheels but he and I worked through it together and all is well.) So when I hear the excuses being made for this or that , well it just doesn't fly with me. It CAN be done. Question is, are you willing to put in the work to get it done? And more often than not, parents these days are not willing. So, blame the school, blame the police, blame the system. Keep perpetuating the cycle of out of control behavior then wonder why there is so many Columbines and child crimes. Maybe someday people will wake the hell up and stop making excuses!

in your rant about "no excuses."

Look, I realize this is a heated issue. You, too, committed the sin of making one too many assumptions. I never offered health care or ANYTHING, for that matter, as an excuse for anything. I'm trying to point out that 45 minutes to get from work to school is simply not that unreasonable an amount of time. No excuse. No nothin.' I'm trying to get some of this discussion to focus on the facts that we know, and the first thing we know is that the police have no legal justification -- LEGAL justification -- to handcuff a minor child. I'm not saying that, the courts say that. It's the legalities here that the police should have known, irrespective of the administrator's own stupid decisions (like adding a camera to the mix). You cannot arrest a five year old as they are not legal defined as capable of forming intent. Legally.

Which gets to the next point; it appears as if the school was looking for the legal or procedural evidence it needed in order to declare the child a behavior problem. Calling in psycologists, etc. Fine, all well and good. Perhaps that is where the camera comes in. But again, no one posting here actually knows all the facts as to what actually happened. We have a lot of dramatic footage. But aren't we all, me included, being a bit Bill Fristy here when we make such sweeping diagnosis based upon a brief video clip and the cable news statement of the child's mom's attorney?

Isn't it possible we're just missing a whole lot of backstory still? It may come out in a day or two, maybe not. But all I know is, I've never dealt with a five year old who could not ultimately be calmed down, and no one in this video we've seen appears to be even attempting to calm this child. Just the opposite, they appear to be encouraging her behavior, imo. And I guess we are to surmise that this was the worst child ever, literally, since calling in the police to quell an unruly five year old made national news by the vary rarity of its occurence. So AGAIN...look at the video...THAT is the worst tantrum these people have ever seen? To the point of breaking out video cameras and calling police?

The only conclusion can be that the entire administrative staff, plus the police officers, are completely ill-prepared and untrained to deal with five year olds if THIS is the national-news-making tantrum that required reinforcements and handcuffs. They all should be ashamed and embarrassed, imo.

No excuses for anyone. Sounds like the worst of everyone came out here.

And if you notice, some of my post addressed you and some of it addressed other posts in this thread. However, you are the one who made the sweeping claim that no that agreed with this could possible have kids. Well, I pointed out that was incorrect.

As for making excuses for the adults "bad behavior". I don't consider it bad behavior. Right or wrong like it or not we live in a sue happy society of people who just plain don't give a shit about anything but their own world. The schools are at the mercy of the parents. They are for the most part right on the verge of out of control. And don't think for one second kids don't see this very clearly. Yes, she is 5, but somewhere along the way she has come to believe that this behavior is tolerated whether it be a mental disorder or she just has never been taught how to behave. How/where did she learn this? And the more she gets away with it with no consequences the more she will do it. So where will it end? Will it continue until she pulls out a pencil and jabs it in another kids leg? Then what about the other kid? Should their parents sue the school for allowing this out of control kid to stab their kid? And it goes on and on and on.

Don't touch my child, don't make a comment I may construe as politically incorrect, don't discipline unless I think it's correct. Where I agree there are schools and teachers that are extreme I believe society as a whole has gotten too politically correct. It's gone to the extreme. And there is no difference in offense anymore. The teacher that restrains a tantrum throwing child while they scream for 45 minutes is treated as if they are the same as the teacher that gaged the kid and locked them in the closet because they made a fart sound during class. There is no distinction between felonies and misdemeanors any more. As for this being the tantrum of the decade, no it's not but it was a 5 year old out of control and completely disregarding any type of authority of instruction. If I were that teacher or that assistant principal I can't think of any way in which I would have handled it differently. I am not willing to touch anyone's child for fear of being sued and charged with abuse are you? That is basically what it has all come down to these days and anyone who thinks differently is not in this reality. Today, in this country you can be charged with abuse of your own child if you are seen in the grocery store grabbing them by the arm and forcefully marching them out of the store while throwing a tantrum. But yet we expect teachers to be able to control a child. Put the kid in a room alone until mom gets there you say? Well, if that child continues a tantrum and pulls a bookshelf over on them self and breaks an arm then the school is responsible for leaving the child alone an allowing the injury. So again I ask, with the threats of being sued, fired, charged and possibly jailed what else would you have them do? And be realistic in 2005 and not what "should" be done. We all know all to well about how things "should" be but the fact of the matter is they are not even remotely as they should be.

Because the kid is NOT being violent that I can see. She is not being wild or out of control. You could have handled that kid without touching her, I suspect most adults would.

The issue in this thread is becoming "they couldn't touch her, what are they supposed to do?" which is wrong, IMO, because it assumes that there is *no other solution in dealing with a disobedient five year old child besides violence or law enforcement.*

police station if thta's the level of tantrum management that's being taught today!

The truth is from the edited film and the school's response, we really do not know much of the reason why this tiny little girl was acting out. She may have been tired, possibly becoming ill, had a tooth ache, or any one of the dozens of other possibilities.

I would remind people that one in ten teachers graduated in the bottom 10% of their class. I think that it takes more than the usual unskilled adult to mishandle that situation in such a pathetic way. We are looking at the least capable of that lower 10%. Hearing anyone who teaches saying they can't see what other options there were indicates a failure in the college's ability to address a simple situation, or to catch those who just didn't grasp it.

Being a former teacher from a good teaching program, I have to take issue with a couple of your points.

I am sooooo tired of people saying that most of us go into education because of the benefits or whatever and that we were crappy students or whatever. "Those who can't, teach," is something I have had shoved in my face many times by parents and students. I wasn't one of the students from the bottom of the class, but I was painted with that brush whenever I defended a grade or called a kid out on bad behavior.

Just in my five years at college (double major, double minor), I had a desk thrown at me, a student write a real suicide note for a class assignment, and more than one student offer me sexual favors and drugs. (I got one up for expulsion for those when the school found out that his family didn't live in the district--they'd faked their residency because of his expulsion from the district next door.) That's just the tip of the iceberg.

My student teaching experience was one of the hardest, worst experiences of my life. In fact, when I asked why I had been placed there, considering a serious health condition I had developed right before and asked for help with, I was told that I was the only one they could place there and know that I would still stay in teaching after graduation. I had students with five minute long attention spans as freshmen in high school. I had a 19 y.o. with special needs who could not read at all and refused to learn how in my remedial reading class, preferring instead to feel up the girls in the class and offer to service me. I had a KKK member in one class, which made To Kill a Mockingbird more interesting, especially after he wrote a threatening journal entry to my cooperating teacher.

I have taught with teachers who were attacked with knives, hit with books and pieces of desks, and gotten hurt breaking up fights. I have taught with truly gifted teachers who stay in the classroom, if just to reach one kid each year, who are constantly threatened by parents and administrators for various and sundry so-called infractions. I honor those teachers and understand if they have a kid they just can't figure out how to control.

Btw, I have an almost five year old, and I know that the best way to handle her temper tantrums is to hold her and rock her gently until she gets her feelings out and more under control. If a teacher does that, she gets fired. What would you do?

everything I've posted on this thread. If you have, then you would know that I used to sub at a school, in the classes for emotionally disturbed kids. I also was a sub for my wife for her classes at a local college. I also did several semesters as an adjunct faculty member at a state university. Now, I realize that this doesn't give me the same experience as someone who teaches full-time for years. But I have a little bit of an idea.

I should also mention that I'm a retired psychiatric social worker. I worked with abused kids, teens in trouble, young adults beginning careers in jail, and all types of strange yet interesting people. So when I see a 5-year old girl, cranky as can be, and acting out, and I say it is NOT a crisis, I mean that.

You asked about my beliefs. Both as a father and as a social worker, I found that in terms of education, the single book that made the greatest impression on me was A.S. Neill's "Summerhill." Believe it was published in 1959 or '60. It has a fasciniating introduction by Erich Fromm. Are you failiar with it?

Finally, I'll tell you a true story, maybe two, about my oldest son. When he was in his first year at school, just 5 years old, a little girl fell on the playground, and started to cry. My son picked her up, and kissed her. I was called by the principal, and went to the emergency after-school meeting. I refused to tell my son he did anything wrong.

The next year, I dropped him off one rainy morning, and said, "Run in there so you don't get all wet!" He ran in, and then in my rear-view mirror, I saw the principal walk him out to the curb, then walk him back in. I fought the temptation to go back. That night, I asked him about whast happened. The principal told him he "knew better" than to run on the sidewalk; my 6-year old said, "Oh, I thought it was a side-run." So for punishment, he had to walk the line.

Maybe its genetic.

I'm sorry I missed that and got too emotional to answer rationally.

I can't understand what that principal's problem was, frankly. What was wrong with your son helping an injured classmate or running in the rain? Of course, I taught high school, and if a kid did that kind of stuff (of course, depending on the kid and his history), we just wouldn't care. In fact, in helping a classmate, we would encourage that. Elementary schools are another ballgame entirely, and I don't always understand their choices.

I agree that the adults in that situation did not handle it as well as they should have. That was why the teacher was taping herself--she'd been having trouble in the classroom and wanted to figure it out and fix it. In situations like that, it's so hard to know what to do.

I will never forget when the 8th grader threw his desk at me. I was so shocked since I hadn't seen it coming at all (he blew up at his group members all of a sudden) that I just stood there for a minute. Finally, I asked him quietly to pick up his desk and put it back, and then I got down on my knees to talk with him quietly. I found out that his group members had been teasing him for an idea he'd had, talked with them and told them I wouldn't put up with teasing of any kind in my class, and then stayed close by for the rest of the period. I never felt like I had really done enough, though, and always wondered if I should've done things differently.

are asked to do way too much these days. And I'm not saying this rhetorically. Teachers are expected to deal with things that aren't school-related. And there can be little doubt that some in the republican party are opposed to funding public schools.

No teacher should have to deal with violence in the school setting. Neither should any student.

When I was in 5th grade, I had what some mistook for "long hair." Of course, President Reagan would have hair as long as Beatle Ringo had when people would say, "I can't tell if he's a boy or a girl." Long story short: a new gym teacher forgot we were not Marines. When I was walking in the hallway, he slammed me from behind, grabbed me in a choke-hold, and told me he didn't like my hair. It was very unpleasant, to say the least. My oldest brother picked me up after school, and noticed I was upset. I explained why, and my brother - a professional boxer - went in and introduced himself to the gym teacher.

As a person who experienced far too much violence as a kid, I can say that it never helps. As an adult who has worked with abused children, I can say there are better ways to deal with 5-year olds than hand-cuffs. As someone who admires most teachers, I would remind even the best ones that they can't save every student .... but they can plant seeds with every compliment and kind word. Teachers do not often see the rewards that come from their kindness to the marginal kids. But those children value those good experiences.

I never agreed with the cops coming in, let alone using handcuffs. I would've isolated her with a TA in another room until her mom could get there, called Social Services, or anything but the cops. Seriously, that was wrong.

I agree that violence should not exist in schools. It's too easy for people in charge to use their power and larger size to bully kids, and that's not something we want happening or encouraging. If a teacher is a bully, then the kids will become bullies--they watch every move we make and learn from us more than our curriculum.

I had a student who was suicidal (tried to commit suicide in the school bathroom during lunch), and I was the only person at the school she'd talk to because on her first day back at school after the incident, I said to her, as I said to all my girls at the girls school, "Hey, Beautiful!" Apparently, no one else talked to her that day unless they had to, and no one said anything nice. :( I tried to explain to her later that I said that to all my students, but she said that just going out of my way to talk to her was enough. It's the little things.

The video was released by the now-former lawyer. It's been edited. From the descriptions of the adults who were there and saw the entire thing, she was raging.

the school had not been dealing with her behavior all year long?

How many times had they called the mom before? How many times had they asked Mom to come up for a conference and Mom was too busy to come? How many times???

Until you can answer that question, you are way out of line when you say the school failed to deal with her behavior before this incident.

Because she did it AGAIN.

The school's responsibility is to teach the children and to keep them safe while they're there. If the school cannot do that, the school is failing. So is the mother, by the way.

The school did take some measures to take care of this (I think I read that sometimes there are two staff members "on" her), but the problem is not solved, is it, because they had to call the police.

when one like this is raging. It is NOT the school's responsibility to teach kids to mind. It is NOT the school's responsibility to teach kids not to throw things and hit and kick people when they are angry. Those are parental responsibilities. This mother had called the police for help with this child when she was 3!! So it's a given Mom knew her child needed help. She obviously had done nothing other than to tell the school not to touch her child. And now she runs out and hires an attorney (who she just fired, BTW) and gets all the free publicity she can find and screams about how unfairly her daughter has been treated INSTEAD OF getting her kid some help.

This is not the school's problem to solve. MOTHER is the one who can solve this problem, the only one. The time she is spending talking to the media should be spent finding counseling for her seriously disturbed child.

This girl was just being as some five year olds are. Not listening, walking away, making a mess, etc.

I'm not going to defend the mother, you're absolutely right. Which is why somewhere upthread I said that the school should have suspended this girl if she was *that* disruptive. Therefore, the mother would have to get the message that *she* has to do something differently.

The school has an informal responsibility to help children become socialized properly--if not, every bad action would be immediately suspensionable. Again, this girl (on the video, anyway) was not stabbing people, knocking other kids around, etc. The videos showed an *extremely* easy situation that was handled abysmally by the teacher/administrator.

First of all teachers in Florida are prohibited to hug a child. (This a result of too many lawsuits)
Second, it's very difficult to suspend a child from school. This girl has had problems before. I am sure the teacher is tired of it! because the parent(s) just don't care! As usual the media gives you only half the story!

Third-- think of who's running the state and the Dept of Education. Education is poorly funded, Jeb has basically done away with recruiting efforts for teachers, salaries are dismal.
So who do you think is teaching in some of those schools, and then consider the population you're dealing with.

Then I saw a different piece of it on KO Countdown last night. This little girl was NOT behaving as most 5 year olds do, even when they are trantruming. She was hitting and kicking adults, jumping up and down off of chairs and tables, pulling things off the wall and pounding the teachers with her closed fists. Every time they tried to restrain her, she squirmed away.

It was far from an extremely easy situation. And the asst principal handled it beautifully. Most adults would have lost their cool. She never did.

We are just going to disagree, I guess, about her level of agitation, because I think she *was* acting as any *agitated/mad/angry* five year old would. Especially five year old boys I've seen in my life.

I did see her strike the AP/teacher (??) after she picked her off the table. She was not pounding her, however (IMO). She went on the table, the teacher took her off, she went toward her with fists. Then she walked away from the teacher, and got back on the table. That happened two or three times.

But again--what some are doing is trying to boil this down to "They couldn't touch her", which IMO is very dangerous because it implies that the only solution in dealing with tantrums is to hit or call police. I wager most parents here do neither.

I disagree that this was a normal tantrum for a 5 year old. For one thing, the vast majority of 5 year olds don't throw temper tantrums at school when they don't want to follow simple directions. They say no, they stomp their feet, they cross their arms and refuse to move. But very very few start throwing things and hitting teachers. That very rarely happens.

The NO TOUCHING prohibits them from carrying her to another room, from hugging her, from restraining her however gently.

I don't advocate ANYONE hitting ANY child.

When the teacher/AP took her off the table, for one thing.

And again, what people are saying here is that short of *touching* her in any way (but you are right that I thought only of hitting, not hugging,etc.), or calling the police, this situation could not have been diffused.

I disagree.

And I don't think having one child monopolize the teacher is acceptable.

or mom sent her anyway even though she was suspended?? What do you suggest then?

That happens ALL THE TIME. Parents also don't have phones or don't answer. They don't list ANY emergency contacts on enrollment forms. Or they list people who have no idea who this kid is when we call them.

We had a 5 year old last week who sat in the office until 7:00 waiting for someone to come pick her up. School is out at 3:00, the bus driver dropped her off and no one was home so she brought her back to school. We tried for nearly THREE HOURS to contact Mom.

You have no idea.

The police should have used a taser on the childs mother.

While I hope you were joking about the taser, I can at least understand the setiment. I really feel for your wife after seeing the kinds of parents my clients have had to deal with, and doubt that the ones she's dealing with are any different. And God help her if she works in a white, affluent, republican district or area, as those parents have been the worst in my experience.

Many teachers should be paid like soldiers and get some sort of combat pay.

And two of the officers present were trainees (i.e. didn't know what they were doing).

Bad judgment and excessive force were both employed by law enforcement.

Obviously, she has been cuffed before. The courts are totally out of control, too. Handcuff the courts.

leg was twitching badly. She was about to erupt again. And why? because her own mother had called the police before about her. She had been there, done that and was facing a repeat of dealing with the police which must have stirred up feelings of being betrayed earlier by her mom.

"her own mother had called the police before about her. She had been there, done that and was facing a repeat of dealing with the police which must have stirred up feelings of being betrayed earlier by her mom."

damn! That is the saddest thing I have ever heard! I can't even begin to imagine what that must have done to that poor little girl. God, that just makes me want to shoot that mother in the face. I hope they take the girl away from her!

Restraining her was justified. The school is very limited in what it can do out of fear of lawsuits.

not to do anything...except pass the buck to the police. a 5 year old holds an entire school hostage...with a temper tantrum?!?! it's ridiculous.

School districts tend to abhor any adverse publicity. After all, school board members are elected in most (or all) areas, and they just try to keep the parents as happy (ie quiet) as possible.

But the fear of lawsuits is somewhat real too. I say this as an attorney who in no way favors tort reform. I also am not saying that the lawsuits are meritorious or that the schools have waived governmental immunity in many cases so as to expose them to any real liability. And the courts would certainly be able to deal with them rather quickly. But anytime a lawsuit is filed against a public entity, whether merit worthy or not, the local newspapers tend to latch on. So while I and many others say lawsuits, it's really the totality of circumstances surrounding those lawsuits that the schools fear most. Sorry for the shorthand, as I used it myself in my posts too.

your post explains it all perfectly...thanks!!!

i have a friend who works security for a local junior high school. last year, a young man casually told her that another boy was hanging in the gym. she ran to the gym found this 14 year old boy hanging by the neck, trying to grab onto the rope. she managed to find a ladder and get him down, but not before he lost consciousness. the boy was taken to the hospital where he stayed for a few days. luckily this incident was a wakeup call for him and his mother and he got some counseling. my friend would never stand by an let a 5 year old dominate her...she just doesn't have that mentality.

btw, the boy and his mom moved to another district, but they came by to visit my friend a few weeks ago. he's doing great and both he and his mother thanked my friend for saving his life.

and when called, she couldn't come to get her.

Knowing that and watching that video, I have to agree, the shcool did the right thing.

The police? That's a separate issue.

Who's idea was it to tape it ?

for the protection of all involved.

....that day so that she could watch it afterward to critique herself and her teaching technique as a self-training exercise having nothing to do with this child in particular, from what I heard. From the way it was reported when I heard it, it sounded as if this isn't an uncommon practice among the teachers at that school.

What I haven't heard anyone say so far is whether or not when the mother said that she couldn't or wouldn't come to get the child, she was told that her daughter was so far out of control that, if Mom didn't come, they felt they would have no alternative but to involve the police. I mean, since the mother had not come when they called her at least once in the past, one would have thought that they would have at least have had a game plan for how they would handle it if it happened again and that they would have told the mother what their intentions were. If they did, then I really don't think that the mother has much to complain about in this instance.

Yes, they told her they would have to call the cops if she couldn't come. AND another interesting little tidbit - the cops said to her 'your mom told us to hancuff you'. So they also must have talked to the mom who TOLD THEM TO HANDCUFF HER. Then Mom turns around and gets lawyer and all the free publicity she can find.

And don't forget Mom had already called the cops when this little girl was 3 to ask for help making her mind.

Wake up people! The mom is the one in the wrong here.

was "Do you remember me? I'm the one who told your mom she could handcuff you" ... rather than "your mom told us to ..." That's what I heard in the original tape, though they might have said something else at another point.

We had to tape ourselves often in college and then write up a review, showing it to our prof or even the whole class (at least the salient points).

If a teacher is taping herself, she's at a loss. She knows that something is really wrong but can't figure out what to do, so she tapes herself to see what unconscious cues she's giving the kids and what's going on when her back is turned.

It's pretty effective (not perfect, but nothing is) and pretty common.

but they said on GMA this morning that once the police are on scene it's out of the schools' hands. I suppose taping it was one of those CYA's

to them :shrug:

The police were fine, it's the school that ought to be under fire. letting a 5 year old run the place? Shame on them.

Your "8th grade class" :eyes: Would you let your 8th grade class be on a jury?

I mean hey if a bunch of 8th graders thing something is right then it must be so.

The part about the police and school is mine.

This is ENTIRELY inexcusable. 100%. On a purely legal level, no 5 year old has the capacity to understand that he/she is committing a crime, and therefore is simply not subject to arrest. It is a false arrest before the discussion even starts, from a legal standpoint. That said, the girl was all but taunted by the teacher/principal. They trained a camera on her, and she acted for it. The "swings" she "threw" at the principal wouldn't have knocked a fly out of the air...it was all show for the camera. The teacher didn't do anything but stand in front of her and not let her by...how about DOING SOMETHING, instead of taunting her like another five-year-old?

Anyone who has seen that video, understands kids, and thinks the behavior of the school admins/police are "understandable," just doesn't have a clue how kids work. In fact, at one point the principal actual is able to grab the girl, in a "hug" actually. Why couldn't she just hold her? This was not a 6' 250lb five-year-old!

the school didn't simply have her sent to a state prison for an introduction to "Scared Straight." Let some mean and ugly inmates scream in her face. It's high time these 5-year olds learn that they are on the road to solitary confinement.

Or, on the other hand, maybe the school should employ someone who is capable of handling a 5-year old.

at least your posts,lol.

You have encouraged me to continue ....... too late to stop!

Couldn't someone just hugged this little one?????????!

You know, those Stalinesque outfits where they send "at-risk" youth to learn to be good little comrades.

12 hours a day of hard labor will shape her right up.


:sarcasm:

and the electric chair if she doesn't knock that shit off. I really hate it when 5-year olds act like little kids! We have ways of dealing with brats like her.

Ov makink little untermenschen like her into goot little Germans.

Wow! What a revolutionary idea.

Education. Funding is terrible. Jeb has been trying to destoy the Education System with his vouchers program deemed ilegal by the court yet he continues on. Jeb has basically done away with recruiting efforts for teachers, salaries are dismal.
So who do you think is teaching in some of those schools, and then consider the population you're dealing with.

My husband is a teacher in Florida, and I can tell you right now that the Media is only giving you half the story!
The mother has called on the police herself because she couldn't keep the girl under control (this was at 3yrs) Frankly the child needs to taken away from the mother. Doesn't matter any more at this point because the mother fired the attorney, took the kid outof school after her "paid for interview" and has moved out of state

the cuts in education have left schools with the lowest quality of teachers, including those who are totally incapable of thinking even one step ahead of a cranky 5-year old. And that includes your husband? Huh. Thanks for explaining that in such a convincing way.

one of the very view in Florida and has received more rewards than you can imagine. He is also fortunate enough to be able to teach in one of the very few public school districts with a high tax base which is well supported (also financially) by the community and its parents. He still raises close to $50,000 PER YEAR to make his program happen.

The school where this kid went yes, is pretty much left with the lowest quality of teachers, and yes the teachers who are sometimes incaple of thinking one step ahead of a 5-yrs. If in the event you didn't know, there are probably hundreds of similar elementary kids in that district that teachers have to deal with. Do you think parents from those communities bother to even attend teacher/parent conferences? Those are the schools noone wants to teach at... that is... if you have any "brains". Starting teacher salary in Pinellas County is $29,400. Single-family homes routinely top $200,000 and that's among the lowest in Florida. Between the cuts in salaries and the funding to actual schools, you think you're going to hire many shining stars?! That's what the cuts in education have resulted into here in Florida. BTW believe it or not, corporal punishment is still allowed in many schools in Florida. That kid needed a good spanking but can you imagine what the press would have done if the teacher gave her a spanking? better be handcuffed. I read she was a biter as well.

It's total breakdown of society plus the failing of HRS as well as the local Dept of Education. You must not be a resident of this state otherwise you would realize what goes on here!
But besides all that, the MSM will put anything out there for ratings and above all loves to bash teachers! That video is 28 minutes long and has been taken completly out of context.

"A little rain falls in everyone's life." I appreciate the difficult jobs that teachers have, and was poking fun at your inability to make a decent case for teachers. However, the truth of the matter is that the average teacher is just that: average. About half are by definition below average. And those who are above average may be swayed by the temptation to go for that $200,000 house you mention.

I'm not from Florida. If it's as terrible as you say, and your husband is as talented as you believe, perhaps he should move.

I note that, despite your obnoxious need to call me names, you end up agreeing with the most important of the points I made. If there are a number of the less-than-talented teachers in the schools in that area, they should find another job. Perhaps those who focus on the $200,000 houses don't realize how insulting it is to those "can't be bothered" parents you have such obvious contempt for, to have unqualified teachers who -- as you admit -- are not capable of thinking a full step ahead of a cranky 5-year old.

if those teachers leave, those public schools maybe empty of teachers. Then Jeb gives them a voucher to attend a private school which only partially funds the cost. So in the end, the parent(s) can't afford it. Then the kid ends up in a bad private school, which is void of any supervision by the state and has teachers which aren't even certified to teach and don't have to live up to any national or state standards. Plus they can elect not to take the child. In Florida ANYONE can teach in a private school. Did you know in order to save money Jeb lets highschool kids graduate in 3 yrs, so if by chance they go to college they are short changed.

Meanwhile failing schools get penalized for poor performance and lose state funding. On top of that the vouchers program takes public money away from the public schools and makes the situation even worse.

I am tired of the general media bashing teachers every chance they get. Believe it or not, there are a lot of talented and devoted people out there!
It's so easy to just blame the teachers, I blame the system which has been eroded! Sometimes certain parents and even kids are a lost cause (unfortunately)

Yes, he is very talented, and the community tell me so. We have often thought about moving, but when you have 18 years in the system, and you are tied in with retirement systems etc., it's pretty hard to pack up and leave because there's too much to lose. Under Gov Chiles (D)and Betty Castor heading the Dept. of Education things used to be a lot better.

In my opinion, JEB is more evil than George, because he is clearly smarter and more disciplined in destroying the fabric of our society. And I really do understand the bit about the retirement system .... I'm retired in New York State; I was a psychiatric social worker, so I also understand not wanting to hear crap about "them dang socialist workers."

At the same time, as a community member who attends most every conference (I retired early, due to severe physical injuries sustained on the job, and simply can't attend every meeting any more); who was the president of the PTA; who has spoken to every grade from K to 12 and to classes in several colleges - always for free; and who has had generally a great experience with each of my four children (ages 7 to 21) during their school years ..... here is what bothers me: most teachers go along with a "good old boy" system much like police. When one of their own errs, in my experience, they "cover" for one another. I could list a dozen examples, most from work, and one involving one of my sons. (He's a wise guy -- gets it from his mother!) And there has been some of that on DU regarding the hand-cuffing of a 5-year old. I'm not "anti-teacher." I am disturbed by some of the things that occure in schools.

more dangerous and very in" with the religious right. This state is also is controlled by repugs in the 3 branches, FL house, FL senate and Governor's office. Thank god the FL supreme court is fairly centrist.
Jeb's doing a pretty good job destroying education among many other things, and privatizing everything. The bad thing is that out of staters think he's got this persona of being so much more likeable and smarter. He's is wolf in sheep's clothes, a crook and not to be trusted. I lived in NY state and my husband was educated there and in MA. The NY school system is a billion times better than Florida.

As far as covering up for each other...I don't have the same experience with teachers here. In general I find teachers are honest and don't necessarily cover up for each other because one bad one spoils it for the rest. Everything hinges on the FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test) performance. An invention by Jeb fashioned after the test in Texas, with which many Bush family connections make a nice profit. If a school performes poorly on the FCAT , they lose funding, if they do well teachers get rewarded. In essence that is a good system, however the schools with the good school populations always get rewarded and get bonuses, the ones that need the most help get penalized. In the end, it's all about socio-economics.
I am disturbed about what happens in schools as well. One of my husband's colleagues was gunned down a few years ago. Hillary has got it right. "It takes a village"... and that's NOT what's happening today. Nice chatting with you.

under parents orders. So hugs are out. I fail to see why every other child in that building should have to not tear the place up but she should.

I would have also told any administrator not to touch my child. But LITERALLY "don't TOUCH my child?" Come on, dsc...I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think you have kids. Am I right?

As a parent, I would never authorize the school to "touch" my child in a disciplinary sense, i.e., spanking, etc. I can all but gaurantee the mother was not talking about anything else, such as the "hug" that the principal finally used which was actually on the video, and which actually seemed to have had the kid under control. Dollars to donuts, the mom meant "don't touch" in a corporal way, seeing as how this wa a disciplinary issue. And also, any of you wage-earners there, do a little experiment tomorrow at your job...pretend you get a call from your kid's school...hang up and start a timer.

Then, go discuss your need to leave your cheap-ass job with your tight-wad boss. Perhaps wait for the next bus which runs past the school...sign out of work, travel across town to the school. This crap about her "not showing up" for 45 minutes is also just that, as far as any of us know...crap. Do you know what kind of job she had, or if she owned a car?

We're supposed to be smarter than the average bears. Try using a little deductive reasoning, considers the possibility of some different reality other than the one you've pre-conceived. Stories this bizarre are rarely as straight-forward as they play out in our imaginations.

First, Schools are capable of telling the difference between don't touch my child and don't paddle my child. It was crystal clear from the report what had been ordered and that was according to HER OWN LAWYER.

Second, I have no doubt that many employers won't let employees leave for things like that. But then she should have let the school do its job. I have dealt with parents like her. Her child does no wrong and is the only child in the school.

And as you say, you have no kids. When you do, you won't trust school adminstrators, either. I'm surprised they weren't demanding ritalin and tranqs for the kid.

and have been a substitute for 8 years. During that time I have subbed in elementary SBH rooms on several occasions. I was the only one who could deal with one of the rooms and was the sub usually called for the other one as well. So I do think I might, just might, have as much experience dealing with this as you do. But maybe not.

...speaks volumes. But that is always what teachers and admins seem to hear when parents ask questions or make demands.

Again, have some kids of your own. You simply cannot understand otherwise. You can observe and interact, but your understanding of "parenting" is not there. You are "teachering."

I have said I have dealt with parents like her. I didn't say all parents were like her. It is clear that this parent, in this case, thinks that her girl should be allowed to do whatever she wishes to do at school without the school doing anything to her. That seems to me to be the definition of not thinking a child can do wrong.

You've reached some stunning conclusions, the basis for which I cannot see anywhere in the stories I've read, or the video I've seen. What are "parents like her?" Do you HONESTLY think this woman believes "her girl should be allowed to do whatever she wishes to do at school without the school doing anything to her?"

That is the person she hired to state her case (aka her mouthpiece) she stated that the people who work at the school were not to touch her child, she couldn't show up when called, and apparently (again according to her lawyer hired by her) they shouldn't have called the cops. Now, assuming she didn't think they could use mind rays from Mars, she apparently felt that until she could come and get the child, the child was to do as she wished without anyone touching her.

Why are you taking each utterance at such literal levels? What does "couldn't show up when called" mean? It took her forty-five minutes to leave work and make it to the school. I guess you wanted her there faster, as did the school admins, apparently. She could not, obviously, "show up when called." It would take her time to get there. In the meantime she said, as I would have, that corporal punishment -- "don't touch my child" -- be used. Not necessarily, as you want to insist, that no one was to even interact with her, they were expected to just let her "do what she wants." Also, so what if she said they shouldn't have called the cops. They shouldn't have! It was also her lawyer -- her mouthpiece -- who pointed out that there is no legal justification for the arrest of a five-year-old. Why aren't you posting that part?

You are focusing on quite literal interpretations of a few key sentences, without any full context to the remarks. You are making assumptions from the perspective of a teacher with a certain amount of disdain for the parents of your charges; at least, that is how you're coming across to this parent of two kids who made it through elementary school without a single arrest or scuffle with police.

child, and the report differentiated between that and corporal punishment. So yes, the words don't touch my child were to be taken literally.

As to the other, she only came after she found out they called the cops. She told them that she couldn't come, not that she would come later. I have no problem with parents who accept that their children are in school to learn and not be the center of the universe. But when, as I have had happen, I am told that "how she behaves at school is your problem, don't call me" then I don't have much respect for that.

It's possible the child was in therapy and her therapist wanted the kid not to be hurt as a way to build trust or something.

I don't know what was actually going on, but it does seem to me a teacher can get a child distracted with something and get them off a tangent.

Butting heads with just no no no is sometimes by the book, but I'm sure there are times as a teacher when you just know you have to find a more creative answer.

The child was oblivious to the camera, except for one instance when she passed in front of the camera & only then did she look into the camera. The rest of the time she was totally focused on dismantling whatever she could reach on the walls.

I totally sympathize with the school officials in this case. The mother lost this case when she didn't find a way to pick up her daughter after being called by the school. She wasn't concerned enough at the time, was she? Are we to expect school officials to dedicate the rest of the day to attend to this child's temper tantrum? No -- the uncontrollable child needed to be sent home, but the mother didn't feel the need to pick up her daughter or to find a relative to do it.

She doesn't have much of a case against the school doing the same.

causing her to have nightmares because she was physically restrained by a stranger. man please can't those who object to the handcuffs just admit that there was nothing the school admin, or the police could do, but what they did.

man, oh man.

child. Children and adults in emotional states can be calmed and situation defused without violence.

She isn't the only child in that school. What about all the other children in her class.

finish her tantrum, of course.

<sigh>

Then no one would ever have to worry about her acting out again.

"Spare the shotgun, spoil the child!" - Jesus said this, I think.

of what to do in this situation, but it's not very productive.

That is out of the range of the other children.

At first, the 5 year old child was "acting out", then she became the center of attention and ridicule and what probably appeared to her to be taunting. At first her behavior was just "acting out" but then it was defensive, responding to the fear she was experiencing.

Its a matter of body language and tone. It is a matter of respecting the person, the CHILD, as a person. Number one, you can't be afraid to stand in the child's way and to vocally let the child know, by your tone, that the behavior is not appropriate and will not be tolerated. That cannot be done when she is being video taped and everyone is staring at her. It has to be a teacher or principal one on one with the child.

I can just image the voices and the giggles and the gauking of those watching the spectacle. The situation escalated from "acting out" to fear and when some people are afraid they become more "violent" or "aggressive" or "confrontational".

I have calmed abusive and aggressive adults having episodes by just standing there and letting them know I was not afraid of them, I wasn't mocking them and all I wanted to do was help them by finding out what was wrong. I let them know they were safe and that we could find a solution to what it was that percipitated the situation.

No one has asked that, what caused her to start "acting out" was she taunted by other students and the teacher took the other kids' side and/or ignored her? Was she tired, did she need a nap and she missed her nap time so she was out of luck?

You are so quick to defend, but you and I are missing pertinent information regarding what caused her to "act out".

She is a FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD. If I can calm down adults in similiar situations, someone with a little intelligence should have been able to calm the child. Teachers are supposed to be professionals, they should continue getting the training needed to do their jobs or get out of the profession.

For pete's sake, if they can't handle an upset 5 YEAR OLD then get out of the business.

in a video about how to handle kids, maybe the teacher or ap was provoking her to make the video more interesting. When the cops came in she was already sitting quietly.

You can't make a good video if the subject isn't playing along.

and those administrators should be canned.

People, including children, rarely attack anyone more than twice their height and weight without provocation.

was to tear apart the office as a way to defy authority. She was in need of outside control. The mother should have come or had a back up. Handcuffs after she was seated? Unnecessary but she sure seemed to know she was in big trouble then. I think what bothered most people was the little girl's cry. She sounded fearful and I think that bothered people. Other kids might become more defiant when handcuffed. Either way, I think people should assume the best.

would have included that video footage in his press package. I don't think for one moment the attorney didn't make certain that he was handed the footage of the incident that spurred this child's tantrum. I'm curious to know why that portion of the video wasn't given to the press.

teach kids what will and won't 'fly'..If they aren't taught at an early age they will grow up to act like that..If their parents can't do their job then someone sooner or later will deal with them and not with a 'love tap'..I don't always agree with law enforcement but this time all I saw them do was break an out of control kid's pride..

It's important to teach kids to behave, or we'll knock the stuffing out of them. Works every time.

What happens when those kids get big enough to knock the stuffing out of the adults? Does might still make right? Or might the adult world find the capacity to deal with 5-year olds in a more insightful manner?

My homeroom was the "detention" room. Maybe if my teachers handcuffed and whipped me, I would be more stable today.

mention THAT?

I was hoping Judge Hoffman would speak up.

Sorry, just posted in the wrong spot.

but apparently you didn't read my post before commenting.

I just don't agree. Snide comments are rarely known to be an effective tool for any tense situation, your mileage may vary.

But I still wanted to get my Chicago Eight joke in.

'knock the stuffings' out of anyone..I had it explained to me what was and wasn't acceptable behavior as a child followed by reinforcement..I don't see anything wrong with this..As a matter of fact, we didn't have so many problems back then with 'out of control' kids and no Columbine type tragedies either..

the adults would need self-discipline. That was hardly an crisis situation. I used to substitute in a classroom for older, emotionally disturbed children. If that school was justified in calling the police, and the police were justified in using handcuffs, then I should have been abled to call the Ohio National Guard into the classroom I ran.

Obviously, every kid who gets smacked around by an adult doesn't grow up into a violent thug. But most violent thugs got the stuffing knocked out of them by a frustrated adult or two when they were little.

If smacking people when they act up is okay, then I guess Rodney King should have taken his lumps like a man. Or do we just beat little folks?

where I said she was.

If smacking people when they act up is okay, then I guess Rodney King should have taken his lumps like a man. Or do we just beat little folks?


I have no idea why the above would be relevent if she hadn't been hit.

You are something! Now, dsc, are you or are you not the same dsc who added post # 88, which read in part, "Your inability to read posts as written is also telling," ? Answer me! Answer me now! (grin)

Are you now, or have you ever been the same dsc who posted #91, which read in part, "...but apparently you didn't read my post before commenting," ? Answer me!

Because, dsc, if indeed you are now (or have ever been) THAT dsc, you should be handcuffed.

Read the posts that I had responded to, and which responded to me, and which I responded to, before you posted your error-filled response. Then, if you don't get it, I'll explain it in very simple terms.

to strike your child with. I'm just saying.

Beat it out of them in the high chair, so you avoid the electric chair. - J. Edgar Hooper

You mean, they'll grow up insensitive to the needs of others, and advocate or engage in violence?

We can't have that. :eyes:

yr old, we are talking about here. And, I wonder about someone thinking that "breaking anyone's pride" is a good thing.

It sounds like what they do to make horses wear saddles. It isn't an opinion I would expect to see experessed on this site in that way. :shrug:

My son is six and in Kindergarten. Before school started we were told that if a kid was disruptive and the teachers can't control him/her we are required to come get them. Signed a form and everything.

The way I see it that school handled this thing badly to begin with. My RW mom brought up a good point. That little girl was sitting in the chair when the THREE cops got there. Then they treat her like a criminal and traumatize her by handcuffing her.

I can't begin to express how outraged I am over this. If my kid even attended that school I would most certaintly take him out. This goes to show the teachers and the school do not have the ability to deal with problem children, IMO.

I would prefer my kids be in a school where a disturbed child is removed - even this way - than be permitted to monopolize the teacher and distract the class.

When they misbehave?

don't act that way anyway.

And do you generally find the use of handcuffs on children appropriate?

And I think there are some unusual circumstances in which they are appropriate.

Yes or no will do.

I didn't ask if you needed them.

I asked if you thought that handcuffing your children was within your powers to restrain them.

I'm sure in exceptional circumstances it might be.

Also, teachers should be experienced and trained to deal with kids with all kinds of behavior types. Even if they can't, a counselor should be on hand.

I probably would've taken the kid to the gym, given her some balls to kick around and let her get her aggressions out that way. At least she would have worn herself out.

As disturbing as that video is, there is still a lot we don't know. We don't know if there was a specific reason why the mom told the school hands off. There could be other issues at play we're not aware of. I'd like to know what set the kid off in the first place. That's not to say she had good reason for being a brat, but it seems to me there was a hell of a lot going on with that kid.

Either way, I hope she gets the help she really needs.

Have done this -- just let her tear around the gym, as along as she didn't hurt herself by running into walls or anything -- just let her scream and run and throw balls until SS or someone could get there.

The counselor was unfortunately likely in her/his office preparing for whatever round of NCLB testing is coming up in the next 2 weeks. Silly thing- you think counselors actually get to counsel anymore? :)

"disturbed" child?

And I'd get her help.

That presupposes that this child's mother enjoys good medical benefits that include mental health treatment for children.

And if not, it presupposes that this child's mother has the available disposable income for such help.

This mother called the police HERESELF on the child when she was THREE.

You think you're talking about the most with it, healthy person here?

You asked what I would do - and I told you. And regardless of my insurance status I would help my child, and I would NOT tell the school they are forbidden to touch her.

Counseling, mental health, psychological, and psychiatric treatment all cost money...a lot of it.

Now, suppose, hypothetically, that the person in question lives paycheck to paycheck and has all of the money they make consumed by basic living expenses.


Where then is the additional hundreds or thousands of dollars for a mental health professional supposed to come from?


But you're right, no one has to live with that reality.


The Mom's probably just a lazy welfare queen, right?

someone ELSE would do.

And if I were uninsured I would STILL seek out help, including reading up on it myself.

If you want me to tell you what I'd do if I were too stupid to figure out any solutions that's yet another question.

But I like how you keep ignoring the fact that the mother - who herself called the police - instructed the school staff not to touch the kid.

To figure out solutions?


Glad to know how you really feel about the 45 million or so people in this country without access to basic health care.


If they were all just as smart as you, there wouldn't be a problem.

you have to the detriment of your 5 year old you're probably stupid.

You know - like work out a system to improve things WITH the school rather than adopting an adversarial stance.

Look to the community health centers in your area which provide care regardless of ability to pay for it.

Try to learn about your child's behavior and work to improve it yourself.

The stupid thing to do is to tell the school they can't touch your child and then sue them when they look to the only other option they have.

Quit it.

I know we all like to play "the government changes my fucking diapers," but there IS a point where people need to be responsible for themselves. I don't know if the child had a father at home, since I only hear about the mother -- but a child in a single-parent home can usually get health insurance through the state -- which includes mental health.

I think the community should pitch in to help the girl, but I don't necessarily think we need to do her mother's work for her.

And learn to be rugged individuals.

Fuck that "government changing my diapers" shit.


:eyes:

In fact one of my suggestions was community health centers which are in fact government funded.

I further suggested working out a course of action WITH the school - which is again government funded.

I additionally suggested independent learning which can make good uise of the government funded libraries.

n/t

I was just making a remark that the mother should maybe just do a little something to TAKE CARE OF HER GODDAMN KID.

Because the government doesn't "change her fucking diapers."

Are you capable of having an intelligent discussion? You're exhibiting one of the no. 1 techniques of one who is DEFENSIVE, which is EXAGGERATING what other posters write. You've done it several times in just this little exchange.

I never said anyone needed to be a "rugged individual." Not at all. Just that people need to be responsible -- and yes, I don't think it's too much to fucking ask for a mom to make a few fucking phone calls to see if she can get her dysfunctional kid some help.

Tell me if you think that that should be too much for a parent to handle.

"The government changes my fucking diapers."


I think it was quite possible for you to make your point without talking points straight out of the RNC playbook.


I mean, what next. Will the mother become a "welfare queen."

they actually did say?

Why the mother is stupid.

color or socioeconomic station. I think that most of America is a wasteland of insta-gratification babies that rely on someone else to do their thinking and tasks for them, while they live out their duty as human capital -- and this DOESN'T exclude the poor. As a social service worker, for three years, I've seen it all, and most of the situations that are behind stories like these are a hell of a lot worse than "buyin' a Caddy with food stamps," -- meaning drug use, domestic violence, selfishness, consumerism (yes, even the poor), neglect, and just plain asshole-ness.

You can support social services and still be realistic about each person's role in their own demise. The only people I don't hold accountable to this, are children. Other than that, I prefer to be realistic, rather than assume that everyone is batted around by some big bad rich guy or a Republican. You can be rich or poor and still be a damn good parent. You can be a real shitty parent, and need your ass kicked, rich or poor, too.

YOU'RE the one who brought class and race into this. I simply said that people should take care of their damn kids, instead of having someone else do it for them.

Is a 5 year-old child in kindergarten.

I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who's seen the video and has read about her past episodes, that this child has emotional problems.


Knowing this, what we appear to have is a mother who's out of her depth, and a school district improperly trained to deal with a child of this sort.


On top of that, throw in the fact that health and social services in the United States are the laughing stock of the industrialized world.


And where does that leave us? It leaves us with the likelihood that the one who needs help, and isn't capable of helping herself, will never get the type of attention she needs.


On Edit: It will also leave us with people who find violence a solution to everything saying that "she just needs a good spanking."

but I still think, of course, that parents are responsible for their children, and many of them don't make the cut, so to speak -- and, again -- rich, poor, whatever. Remember, I consider teaching your child to be a consumer slouch is child abuse.

I think that the girl should DEFINITELY not have been handcuffed, and that the teachers on the video don't know the first thing about conflict resolution -- and need to be sent to a re-education camp of their own.

That said, the egg and sperm donors for this particular child, absent or present, still bear some responsibility for what they hath wrought.

My comment about "government changing diapers," isn't meant in the traditional way -- but is just as applicable to a corporate bailout, or a farm subsidy, as it is to welfare or medicaid. I do believe in personal responsibility -- just not the racist-disguised fake version that the GOP peddles. And I don't believe in large-scale welfare programs, but community programs. I think that "government" is too far away from its people and bureaucracy creates hella waste.

One thing that most Democrats AND Republicans forget is that the reason that the government had to grow to both protect and re-distribute a concentration of wealth. For me, big government is simply a symptom of too much wealth concentration. Of course, the flip side is that wealth concentration creates technological advance - something from which we all benefit, from time to time.

Anyway, I believe in a neo-communal, parasitic libertarianism -- which, unfortunately means that fingering the little girl's mother (and father) for their role in the problem is an important factor in addressing the problem. There's more, but I won't go into it.

and it's not the police. we don't just lock away the "unpleasant ones" so little johnnie and susie perfect can be perfect.

unfortunately, if this child does have a mental/emotional illness, getting her involved in the JUSTUS system is not a solution. the police are no more equipped to deal with her than is the school.

very thing.

She and I talked about a parent we both work with who has not been able to get her child to see a specialist that the child needs because the family's insurance doesn't cover it. I could understand that, but my colleague could not.

She said, "I'm a single mother with three children, and I work and also get support. My daughter needed to see a neurologist and I couldn't afford it and my insurance didn't cover it, but somehow I made certain it happened. Parents need to do these things - maybe it means being without cable for a few months, or the parent eating a bit lean for the month, or maybe it means being very creative. But you do what you have to do."

I'm not in her financial situation, but I appreciated hearing from someone who is walks the walk that sometimes, even under the toughest circumstances, you have to find a way to do impossible things to help your kids.

In fact, I was in awe of her, because I knew she was being truthful. She had insight into the situation that I simply could not, and she had less patience for parents not taking care of important health issues than I did.

And if I'm not mistaken, this is my 1,000th post :)

And thanks for your friend's insight.

:toast:

not just one lone adult, that can team up to handle this situation appropriately benefits everyone in that community, not just one child.

actual teachers and administrators have to deal with.

with very similar problems.

This is actually, and I use that word very deliberately, the only way the situation improves.

Our families don't live in The Ideal, we live with The Reality 24/7.

deal with what IS.

I do agree with you about more community - it's how my kids are living. But it's far from the norm.

They need to change it.

A kid this disturbed may simply not belong there.

But as I'm sure you know, that may have to be shown rather than simply asserted.

the public. And a significant number of those kids will have behavioral problems. Numbers vary but 10% is a conservative one.

The school is required to make the school work for all its students or (I don't know FL law) in all probability, bear the cost of alternate placement. That's the law in most states.

Looks like they're taking the less expensive way out and tying up the police instead?

schools don't have to try to make do.

One, this is a kindergardner so it is highly likely this is her first year in a public school. It takes, even with parental cooperation, a significant amount of time to get a kid into a SBH class, which is where this child apparently needs to be. This parent is apparently not cooperative. Generally the child needs to be observed having severe behavior problems on many occasions to get into an SBH class. Then he or she needs assessed by a team made up of the SBH teacher, her own teacher, and a psychologist. Finally the parent must sign off and there must be room in the unit. The story mentions that the child was supposed to be going to another school in a few weeks. My guess is that would be the school with an SBH unit.

public education.

The public school may also find that the child needs a more restrictive placement so that she doesn't impede her own education, or that of those around her. However, to make that happen, the school needs to document that every effort has been made to make this least restrictive environment work for this child. During the process, if they can prove that they had a behavior plan in place, backed by a functional behavioral analysis, and if they have documentation that they've done everything they can do, then alternate placement can happen IF THE PARENT consents. Much easier said than done, and all this takes time and effort. Therefore, I won't quickly assume the school is taking the cheap way out.

I totally disagree with the cops cuffing this little girl, but I'm not about to flame the school, because we aren't privy to this child's history at all, and we don't know the particulars regarding her past behavior in school and what they're doing to help her.

It's easy for people to say that no one at this school could handle this child or to make snide comments about adults being unable to handle a five-year-old girl, but having worked in special education, I know the reality of today's public schools and the challenges and rewards of working with special needs students. I've seen students do things that would flabbergast most adults who don't work in schools.

staff learn how to appropriately handle these situations. Inviting armed cops into a school is dangerous, all by itself!

In my experience, it isn't the schools that have been begging parents to accept Special Ed for their children. lol. It was all I could do to get IEPs for one of my kids.

And on a purely human level, we know -- those of us involved in education or social work or caring for someone with special needs -- that funding and so support for us is going to decrease instead of increase unless we are as proactive as possible. At very least, we should each have a workable personal plan and try to develop a network.

Thank you, DimSon.

:nuke:

My wife has taught pre- school for 25 yrs...had a child who was that frustrated and would give him a hammer ,two-by-four and nails...would let him pound nails and talk to him as got out his frustrations and would get to the root of the problems. Anyone with phys 101 know that sometimes a child can not verbalize or understand what their problems are .. Are these teachers that inept at their trade?...Kids are not born bad, something makes them that way.

surely you jest. Most states have requirements that you have one counselor for every 500 or so students. Most elementary schools aren't that size and thus must share counselors.

I mean, from her mother, to the school, to the cops....all the adults could have done better for this kid.

I do agree that both the mother and the cops screwed up.

Until now, I'd only seen her crying when the cops came.

I just watched the classroom video and the office video, and I am laughing my head off trying to find the "out of control" child. I see a five year old walking around a classroom and not listening. I see a five year old making a mess and not sitting down.

The teacher could have asked what she *did* want to do. The teacher could have asked *why* she wasn't sitting down. The teacher could have asked her whether her mother would be happy knowing she wasn't listening. The teacher could have told her that if she calmed down (which is hilarious because she wasn't acting frantic that I saw) she could help the teacher hand out papers, or something.

The teacher did none of that, but did call the police.

??????

And they let that FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD down.

Here we see her mom "discussing" the incident with her father, and why he wasn't able to pick her up...

5-year-olds mom video

Sorry the people involved in the video were of a race. I tried to find one that had people with no skin or facial features. The woman in the video was flailing and kicking ass, much like so many claim the five-year-old was doing. It was a natural tie-in, especially since the woman happened to be of the same race as the child. That does not make it racist! If it was of a white woman, heck, then it would have been racist...and just plain stupid, since the girl is black, as is her mother. What would you have posted if it was a white woman or Asian woman and I joked that it was her mom?

Get a thicker skin. The video was funny, and race has nothing to do with why it was funny. If you think it does, than the "racial" epithet might deserve a look in the mirror. Just because a person of color does something funny it doesn't make another person a racist for commenting on it! I was just trying to lighten up a heavy thread.

But I'd sure love to know how you get "racist" out of it. I didn't create the people or the video. It's just who they are, filmed doing something. Race didn't enter into in until you started flinging unfounded epithets.

who was truly out of control, an adult making a choice to assault her boyfriend above and beyond self protection and who was having a great time being abusive.

Second - when you put out a video of domestic abuse that is clearly over the line (white/black/polka dot - it doesn't matter what color of skin) it isn't funny. Anyone who has been beaten wouldn't laugh at what you think is so hilarious.

If you had put on some MAD TV skit with black people "arguing" about who was supposed to pick up the kid, that might have been funny, if a bit on the edge of poor taste, but I've laughed at worse.

Your message and opinion are potent and not to be ignored, but you are grouping her by race and making the suggestion that she comes by violent tendencies naturally by showing an out of control black woman and saying it's her mother.

This is a common stereotype and it's a big reason why a five year old black girl gets handcuffed and a five year old white girl doesn't.

I saw the video. The girl was defiant and disobedient. She needed time out and people who could get her to process her anger without making a mess or dancing on the table.

In fact, in your video, I think proportionately the little girl is more in the position of the man being beaten, guilty of a sullen attitude and pissing off the wrong person.

She was making token strikes to keep the teacher out of her space in the same way the man ineffectively tried to strike back so his shame over being beaten by a woman would be lessened.

By the time the police arrived the girl was sitting quietly. The police could have talked to her for at least a little while before determining she was such a menace to society that she needed to be cuffed.

They could have watched the video and by the time that was done, the mother would have arrived and they could have read her the riot act instead of manhandling the child.

Show me a white wife beating up on her abusive white husband and I will laugh equally hard.

Just because you think a woman beating up on a man is funny doesn't make it so.

Just because you would laugh equally as hard if it is white or black doesn't mean that equating a little 5 year old girl's behavior with that video isn't racist.

This is reinforcing a stereotype that says that little girl comes by her out of control tendencies naturally. It doesn't matter that you people don't KNOW anything about her mother.

She could have been an RN who couldn't leave a quadriplegic until her relief arrived. But you guys go for the lowest common denominator and then tell me I'm racist for pointing it out. Sound like re thugs to me.

Make sure to kiss both sides dip-weed. :nopity:

How dare you provide a link to a video clip that clearly contains people who aren't white!