I left liberal heaven for.....this?

I am not a native American. With that I mean that I am not native to the USA. I was born in the United Provinces of Holland, Dutchland or if you prefer, the Netherlands.

I moved here in 1999 and in many ways I feel that I'm trapped in a time warp. The German poet Heinrich Heine once said that if the world were to come to an end, he'd move to Holland because there everything happens 50 years later. He was wrong, and from a survivalist's perspective I appear to be in the right place.

In 2001, Holland was the first country in the world to make euthanasia into law. Before that, several Terri Schiavo cases were already pleasantly settled for all involved without the need for politicians to threaten judges.

Gay marriage was introduced in the early nineties. Technically any marriage in Holland is a civil union. Church weddings are optional and have no legal value.

Public schools do not teach religion for as long as I can remember. Established religious or philosophical movements have the freedom to start their own school and will receive equal funding as public schools, providing they have enough students and meet the requirements set by the board of education.

Abortion was legalized in 1984 and has not been questioned since.

Health care is of course affordable for everyone thanks to a national health insurance and an active role by the government in negotiating acceptable prices for drugs.

Speaking of drugs. Soft drugs (cannabis) were pulled out of the criminal circuit in the early eighties (with some restrictions). The same is true for prostitution.

Political parties receive equal funding and equal air time on public TV. Buying additional radio or TV commercial time is prohibited.

The Dutch Bishops openly disagree with the Pope on just about any issue.

Did I leave out any hot discussion topics?

Most of these things are true for most countries in Western Europe. And despite what some people (mostly on other boards) believe, they manage to have a perfectly functional societies that outperform the US in just about any aspect these days.

Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly content where I'm at and I have no intention of going back any time soon. But please forgive me for abstaining myself from most of the hot debates. They're just soooo 80's.

Oh, Liberals are considered right wing in Holland. The far left calls themselves Progressives.
Despite the sodomite image, the biggest party is the faith-based Christian Democratic Appeal.
Isn't it ironic?

Your subject line seems at odds with your second-to-last paragraph's first sentence.

I'm not personally affected by any of these issues.

I have six kids, so its a little late in the game to consider abortion. I obviously have also no particular need for the services of a prostitute or a legal contract with a same-sex partner.

Worst of all, canabis makes me sick.

:ROTFL:

coming your way!

I lived for three years in Germany a while back, and spent a lot of time travelling around, incuding regular visits to friends around Arnheim who lived in a converted windmill while they were in the art school.

No one will ever accuse Europeans of any brand of being perfect, but I got the distinct impression that after 2,000 years of warfare, royal nonsense, Church abuses, and the ravages they have been through, they have had enough and have decided to just sit back and relax. Trying to run the world and fighting over the spoils just isn't worth it.

Maybe the incredible waste of two wars that destroyed the entire continent and scarred every single person alive then had something to do with it.

I just hope that, unlike us, they never forget the ravages of war and conflict. Or the benefits of peace, cooperation, and tolerance.

I really hope, that we learned our lessons.
But isn´t it ironic, that we in Germany learned the lessons of freedom and democracy from our American friends?
:toast:

The US never had a war hit home.

Sorry folks, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are small potatoes compared to Dresden or Rotterdam.

My grandfather lost everything in WWII. Ironically enough his house was struck by an American bomb, targetted for a V2 missile site in the nearby park.

Gramps never passed an opportunity to tell us about the horrors of war. It is unlikely that Preston Bush had similar sentiments to share with his grandchildren. If anything, he may have pointed out the potential profitability of international conflict. Think it rubbed off?

And it's amazing how many people I meet in my country of residence who have come here after first immigrating to America from other countries. After a few years, they jump ship and move on to where I am. They mention many of the points in your post as their reasons for doing so.

Many people in other countries still believe that America is the golden dream - and they have a rude awakening when confronted with the reality of America. I have also known many people who have immigrated to America who went back to their native countries, stating the same things that you mentioned in your post.

The Netherlands is still following the US example.
According to the Dutch government Bush's war in Iraq is a just war, we should give up civil rights in order for them to be able to protect us from the global terrorist organisation, the wellfare-state needs to be dismantled, everything needs to be privitized and deregulated, the labor market made more flexible, etc etc. They now want to scrap half of the "ARBO wet" (labor protection laws), and the "WOR" (law on workers unions) is being weakened.
It's just that we aren't yet as far as the US is.

Fortunately there's the possibility we won't get that far. Imagine that: next term another Bush for the US, and a more progressive/socialist Europe. Old Europe versus The New American Century. May we live in interesting times.

Now where did that subject line come from? ;)

The wellfare and labor issues that you mention are signs that the socialist aspects of Europe are crumbling. That's a different subject because the discussion there is whether or not they are financially maintainable in the future.

I am refering to the issues that are commonly (and arguably) labeled as "liberal". Moral and phylosophical issues that cause a major divide in the US.

it doesn't just crumble on its own accord, it is being demolished by powers who want it gone.

But maybe socialism is a luxury we simply can no longer afford.

some of us here in the States remember the Gilded Era (or its historical record, at least, I'm not THAT old-looking!)

why would it be that we used to be able to afford it, but can't any longer?

My dad still complains today about having to pay 70% of progressive taxes back in the seventies.

Globalization, population graying, these are all issues that stand in the way of maintaining a socialist model.
This doesn't mean however that there shouldn't be aspects of the welfare state that need to stay in place.

I was unemployed for most of 2004 and having something like that happen to you in a society where there is no social safety net what so ever is not a good experience.

But you are right, I am not sure about the big picture. I rather take the pragmatic approach of one case at a time.

I have sat down and had serious talks, with my spouse, about moving. His first wife made him move away from his family and now he never wants to leave where they live. If I was not married, I certainly would not live here any more. Although, I do feel it is incumbent on me to fight for our old country. I am so torn!!!!

Holland (or Europe) is by no means Utopia and it has a whole set of problems on its own.

It just amazes me that we're still debating these issues that have long since been settled over there without much of a struggle.

Well, since you're not using your Dutch citizenship, can I use it?

I'm not allergic to anything.

Need it to keep my kids out of the draft ;)

We have tossed the idea of leaving for a while and heading over to the UK.

See my post on the subject. <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x3275>

"Political parties receive equal funding and equal air time on public TV. Buying additional radio or TV commercial time is prohibited."

came here, when you guys are far more advanced and civilized than us.

Incidentally, I have Dutch ancestors who immigrated here in the early 1800 and my maiden name is Dutch, because of them, but of course like most Americans, I am a mutt and my major ancestry is Spanish.

at least one third Dutch. Where do I send for my citizenship papers?

That would be so cool!

Back then the US and Canada were considered a farmer's paradise and Holland was running out of farming space.
Most of Europe was still pretty much in ruins from WWII.

I don't know about advanced and civilized. Over here I can still bring my kids to sporting events :)

i mean, you are having me question why i am living here. cause born and raised, but dude, why are you living here, lol.

and welcome, what 5/6 years ago

The short version...


I came here on vacation.

really was an outloud laugh. fall in love. what happened to me in my "visit" to teexas. another country in and of itself. that is funny

Public schools do not teach religion for as long as I can remember. Established religious or philosophical movements have the freedom to start their own school and will receive equal funding as public schools, providing they have enough students and meet the requirements set by the board of education.

Political parties receive equal funding and equal air time on public TV. Buying additional radio or TV commercial time is prohibited.

If we could just get those two along with national health care we would be a much better country...

The one about Parties receiving equal funding... Does that go for every single party or just the big two or three? If the US tried that there would be parties coming out of the woodwork but if we did it for just the big five say I think America would once again become GREAT.....

I am not entirely sure how it works. I believe that in order to make the election list (and subsequent funding), you have to have a minimum number of registered members.

There are a lot of parties in Holland. About twenty run in the national elections on average. There are three major ones that receive roughly 70% of the votes.
Because one party never receives a majority vote, they have to form a coalition of two or three parties to form a government. The government parties than have to come up with a governing agreement, which consists of contributions from all parties. The biggest party in the coalition provides the PM.
It is uncommon but possible that the party with the most votes does not make it in the government because they are unable to reach an agreement with any of the other parties.

It's a rather complex system based on lots of compromise. I'm not too crazy about it myself.

when he was murdered by a religious extremist for daring to make a film about the abuse of women?

Would 17% of the voters of any "Liberal Heaven" have voted for the racist List Pim Fortuyn in 2002?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I have great respect for the Netherlands as a country not least for the reasons you outlined. They're certainly ahead of the US in many respects, but they also seem to have some nasty problems of their own to deal with, like any other country.

I knew Theo well. I was shocked to hear about his murder.

It's a great loss to the entertainment world and to the Republican Party of which I am still a member.

- Before I get lynched here, the DUTCH Republican Party. No affiliation. It is a symposium of people who want to retire the royal family (hence the name). -

I am only superficially familiar with Fortuyn. I understand he was gay. Sounds pretty liberal to me. I also understand that he had the support of several people that I hold in high regards.

But regardless, both van Gogh and Fortuyn were assassinated. I don't believe we had a political assassination in 500 years. I turn my back for a few years, and the whole place goes to hell. ;)

Yes, Holland has its own set of problems (said it three times now, that should suffice). My point is that we here in the US are still beating the same old subjects, while in Holland/Europe these matters were settled in relative peace and quiet.

There are two possible explanations:
A. All Europeans are godless heathens and a little wacko on the side
B. They are simply the right choices, regardless of your political view.

Although I don't exclude option A, option B just might suggest that these issues are deliberately kept alive in the US. It certainly appears that quite a few people earn their power and status by exploiting them for what they are worth.

And i agree we are beating a lot of old issues that the Dutch have had the good sense to put behind them long ago- but let's face it, most countries are gonna look good compared to the US ;). But yeah, Holland looks particularly good. nevertheless, I still think the social problems represented by the murder of Van Gogh and success of Fortuyn put Holland a long way from beign a "Liberal Heaven" (which of course, is an impossible standard to reach- i appreciate that I am, to an extent, consciosuly taking your post more literally than you probably intended). Bear in mind Fortuyn may have been gay, but he was also a racist who wanted to stop ALL immigration to the Netherlands- for me, hsi party's success (not to mention his assassination) seemed to suggest that some sections of Dutch society might not be as comfortable with themselves and their society as is often assumed.

Then come here and use the example of ONE MURDER to compare and contrast.

Downright silly.

I have been lost in the streets late at night in more than one Dutch city and never felt fear for safety. Try that in ANY US city.

You might not have been trying to be an asshole. I suggest you keep trying harder.

I'm not trying to draw comparison between the US murder rate and "one murder" in the Netherlands- in fact, I made no mention of the US murder rate, you just pulled that out of your ass. The particular significance of the murder of Van Gogh- an event of which you are seem to be unfortunately ignorant- was its illumination of the existence of violent religious extremism even in the Netherlands; not only in the act itself, but in the unprecedented attacks on mosques on the one hand, and suggestions from some Dutch Islamic leaders that Van Gogh brought it upon himself on the other, that follwed the murder.

And I note you completely ignore my point about Forutyn. Strange, given that you could easily have pointed out that 51% of Americans voted for a racist party at the last election if you wanted to further ignore my point and continue the strawman trajectory taken by your first point. It still wouldn't have addressed the issue.

I've spent time in the Netherlands myself, and I think it is a beautiful, wonderful and in many ways enviable country. But I also take a continuing interest in events there and am capable of grasping the fact that it is well short of being "Heaven"; no country is.

And as for your snide little personal attack, well I believe that's quite capable of speaking for itself.

They are like 12-year-olds, with persecution/superiority complexes. They are "better" than anyone else in the world, and "if you don't like it here, LEAVE" is their favorite chant.

Kind of like if someone comes to your house and tells you the roof is leaking and you tell them to "Go home and use your OWN roof if you don't like it." If you never fix your roof - out of spite or ignorance or laziness, pretty soon, everybody in your house is gonna get wet.