IF you believe in a higher power,...

,...you must know that higher power is aware of your every thought and word and deed.

How do you shape your thoughts and behavior knowing a higher power is intimate with everything you think and do?

You can even assume that the "higher power" is within you,...is you,...and explore how your choices are shaped by such an awareness.

,...that a "higher power" is really within themselves.

You're prolly right, though. I should have focused upon "conscience" rather than the "higher power". But, I took a shot and will take whatever I get,...for better or worse.

I can live with that. An idealized self. Part of the model of the perfect universe that we reference with our consciousness.

--IMM

How about the super ego as the seat of the soul from which the heart would be be the perfect place for Christ (by what ever name he has revealed himself to you) to minister through blood to lead the mind in producing deeds that do not defile the man they come from?

We talking really blood here? Or are we talking metaphorical blood? Why not call it what it is, or I'll allow, what it more likely is. And what minister are we talking about?

I'm okay with all sorts of imaginative exercise, but your explanation has an implied "let's pretend" prefix. So it leaves room for more explanation.

--IMM

What controls your "conscience"? Do you have a "conscience"? *LOL*

So why not both real and metaphorical? Does one negate the existance of the other? I think not. One is simply beyond the other. Much like Fantasy and reality. But I've been wrong before and I'm not afraid to be wrong again.

As to which Minister. That would be the verb.

There is no Pretending to it. You can thank Bush for creating a world in which Wizards are real and the President of the United States is a creature of fantasy.
;-)

And they are surely linked. But don't mistake the link between fantasy and reality with a similarity. They are opposites. Sometimes you can afford the luxury of using them interchangeably. But sometimes circumstances require acknowledging the difference.

That the president is a creature of fantasy is a situation we call irony, and an illustration of the expression, "nothing's perfect."

--IMM

It mirrors the fatal flaw of the Taoist Pinnacle. They believe good and evil to be the same. They are Equal. But they are are two seperate and distinct beings that have the same face. They are twins. Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord)is the only one that can tell them apart. That is why Ahriman/Lucipher will deceive the world into believing he is Ahu/Christ. That is also why the battle between good and evil is not ours to fight. We cannot possibly win. We cannot even identify the enemy.
Good and Evil, reality and fantasy, etc. are all dualities. They are the poles of spectrums. They are the paradox that keeps the polls of the paradigm seperate.

Edit: I've always heard it as "no one is perfect save One." Shortened to "No one is perfect." If no one is perfect then by extention. nothing they create will be perfect.

Before you could make the change to suite his form he will have changed form. That is why I believe fire to be the most accurate representation of God. It is alive. It is both tool and weapon. It gives and it takes. It is ever changing. It never assumes the exact same shape even though all manifestations are unmistakably fire.

However, you avoid the point: your conscience. What is your conscience? What shapes it conscience? Does your conscience pull you to contribute to making life better for all,...or to just yourself? If so, why?

I forgot one. It also derives it's existance from a trinity. Heat, fuel, and oxygen.

Okay I'll address the point I only hope you can follow. I'll have to use some Neo Alchemical terms developed from the ancient philosophy. The more obvious the explination is the greater the confussion becomes. But here it goes anyway. Lets hope He grants a lifting of this veil. I came in through the out door twice. So the Conscience is but a bridge that joins and binds the the body and soul. It is the earthly seat of the soul. Basically, "Upon the throne of Saturn I sate." ;-)

--IMM

I am the Magus Amathion. I call Him Ahura Mazda. The Egyptians later came to know him a RA. Both represented by the winged sundial. Ahura Mazada also forms the trinity. Ahu (son)Ra (father) Mazda (holy spirit/wisdom)

But I do post at the Sun. Well after I'm reinstated. But their temporary loss is your gain. I like this place and I'm not leaving here when I return there.

Got a link?

--IMM

Uh - wha?

Are you saying you had, like, a NDE or something?

Three of Marylands best prenatal doctors induced my mother to labor at 11 months to rid her of what they said would be a still born fetus. There were no detectable life signs. I took my first breath and then used it to laugh at them. Then again at 16 I was pronounced. That doctor got punched upon my return.

:shrug:

If you have one, a conscience, where do you get it?

What senitient being doesn't? But I know it for what it is. A bridge that joins the two bodies and therefore the two worlds. It comes from God. It was He who created me body, mind, and soul. In Him the three are always as 1. We were made in his image.

Edit: "State of being" is more accurate as "Bodies" Physical and Spritual. We are like the nanuchka or even onion in more ways than one.

,...tens of thousands of innocent lives who never threatened his existence.

There are sentient beings which destroy life. Do they have a "conscience"? No.

But he does not have Vohuman or Good Mind. I do believe that on 9/11 we saw "Bushyasta" the demon of sloth. When there is one life in Florida that needs him. Watch him move like the wind. 3,066 lives is too much hard work for him. He also does not have Vohuman.

They are of Ahriman the destructive spirit. They will destroy all they touch.

Woooooooooooo!

.."if my thought waves could be seen
they would probably put my head
into the guillitine
its alright ma
I'm only dyin"

Bob Dylan

"to thine own self be true" Shakespeare

I am created in His image and likeness...He gots lots of wild ideas...

Most actually avoid being intimate with themselves,...'cause, then, they would have to carry the full weight of their humanity.

They fear themselves.

i have learned and now trust there is a higher in all things. once this site becomes, it just cannot go away. doesnt matter much what life brings to me, knowing there is a higher in all things, the good the bad and the ugly, i have come to a peace. in that peace, it allows one to just be with the higher.........

now having done an amazing spiritual journey since 2000, i can extend it out to the highest, is no longer a motion, it is purity. that purity is stillness. no tug and pull no good or bad, no polarity no battle.

then not only could they shape my choices, they could anticipate and even pre-determine them. That would make my life superfluous.

That's the problem with higher powers. If their powers get high enough they preclude their own existence. What's the curiosity level of an omnipotent being?:shrug:

--IMM:hi:

powerful being that controls everything. Not everyone perceives a "higher power" in such limiting terms. Most all believe there is a concrete element of "free will" and "choice".

Anyhoots, you still failed to answer how your conscience is shaped. Do you have no conscience? *LOL*

Here's a way it could be. (The wave function.)

We have some awareness of the universe with which we interact. Our awareness extends far beyond the universe that we are in contact with, by indirect knowledge, experience, extrapolation, intuition, etc. We work from a model in our head that comprises our knowledge of the universe. The model is in many senses idealized, including an idealized self. That's a possible source of concience. (Freud had some insights into this.)

--IMM

ONLY YOU can identify YOUR conscience.

Consider that certain behaviors in others are repugnant. Similarly are they in oneself.

--IMM

:shrug:

And I'll give you another.

Most of the decisions we make are purely aesthetic. Most others have a heavy aesthetic component. There's always an element of what feels right in making a decision, even if there is much data input.

Being good is beautiful.

And what is beauty? Form? Function? Adherence to standards? Chemicals in your brain?

I could probably find you several books discussing what that means, as most philosophers try to cover that territory. I avoid making absolute statements where I lack absolute knowledge, and if I am not presuming too much, that's why you think I'm not defining my conscience. What you're asking for is right at the crux of the mind-body problem. And I hope you'll have some patience with me that I haven't got the solution yet. But I'm working on it.

==IMM

But I've also never allowed never to stop me. So here it goes. As the creator of all things I would say it's infinite. I might even go as far to say that he was born of his own curiosity.
There was Choas. Chaos being infinite transparency and nothing but the possibility of everything all at once. Within the Chaos a possibility became aware of it's existance. In becoming sentient it declared it's existance by saying it's name. This begins the process of the creation or big bang. Matter(sound)introduced to antimatter and the resulting explsoion that lasted for 6 days and resting (stopping/ending) on the 7th. So God basically became a plug in the gaping maw of Choas. It's not that he precludes his own existance. It's just that he never has or ever will exist on the same plain as us. If he does the plug is removed grom the gaping maw of Choas. Then she will devour all he has created. That is the self sacrafice he has made for our existance.

But to tell the truth I think "Within the Chaos a CURIOUS possibility became aware of it's existance" is more acurate. That would identify the Great Whore Mystery as Chaos herself. She will rear her ugly head once more and heaven and earth will be destroyed. It was she who constantly questioned his existance. It was she who tried to prevent his birth. I now see why He would call her that. :wow:

You have enlightened me. Thank You and God Bless you.

It's a pretty well known line in fact.

,...cause I haven't a clue *LOL*.

:-)

Quantum Physics based religion.

Suzanna McGee

"be willing to pray on this problem and to turn to this Higher Power for guidance and assistance in the forgiveness process."

http://www.sixftlion.com/newsletterJulyAug2001.html

Also taken out of context and used in Quantum "Powers" books online and sold across the country.

It wouldn't be of a shock to learn much of the lunacy in this country now, is a result of taking esoterics and throwing it completely out of context.

I thought esoterics was that which was Mysterious/hidden or not yet known science/understanding of reality - in effect a rejection of the super-natural as being just something we can not explain -yet.

In effect a faith based religion that sees the future science explaining all. To then turn to this Higher Power for guidance and assistance in the forgiveness process is an interesting twist.

I grant you esoterics has a many definitions as authors!

The Esoteric faith is not my conclusion, but then I am a simple Christian!

includes everything. Since that is my concept, I realize that thoughts are thoughts, and are part of the discovery process of All discovering All. That being said, there are some thoughts that are constrictive, some expansive....one can tell, and one can choose what to have. Sometimes I think that dealing with thought is one of the main reasons we have consciousness.

I have added you to the "Cool Believers" list this atheist keeps. Your words often give me something to think about.

that's all I'm trying to do-get people to think outside their usual concepts. And by no means do I feel I have "found the Truth"-only concepts different from many, concepts which I hope continue to evolve as I get older.

Of course,...you would know that already.

I find it fascinating that there are those who automatically characterize the suggestion of a "higher power" in unbending religious constructs,...immediately.

I think that consciousness is dynamic, not static, and that concepts are made only to be changed as one discovers more and more.

Thus implicitly, that the "higher power" is some variant on the Christian "one true god". Both assumptions are incorrect.

My religion does not acknowledge the concept of "sin" in a Christian context. Wrong that one commits in this life has immediate consequences, not some delayed punishment that will be determined at "death". I shape my behavior on a carefully considered evaluation of right and wrong. My God doesn't judge me. I am responsible for my behavior, and I pay the price for misdeeds here, now, and without implicit interference or support from Deity.

The Christian idea that "sin" is some kind of account in an omniscient cosmic ledger is one of the enabling ideas that lets Christians manipulate their morality. Each act a Christan performs is judged relative to some Godly rule book, and an accounting will be delayed until the end. The Christian "rules" are rife with loopholes, whether it be confession, assumption of "sin" by one of their pantheon, or whatever. In my religion, you break it, you pay for it. Now. Not next year or in the next life.

This gives me certain freedoms. I can decide if an act is wrong based on context and impact, rather than some hidebound rule. It also carries certain restrictions. I must make restitution or pay the price for mistakes. Christians love to portray my religious moral teachings as decadent or self serving. In truth, they are far more restrictive than Christan moral strictures in practice. Primarily because I have no excuses or escape clauses.

Then again, I don't look forward to an eternity of torment because I found myself in a situation where there was no "good" choice.

,...I suppose your take on my perception of a "higher power" as being omnipotent is correct,...in some sense. However, you manage to misinterpret and misrepresent my perspective,...entirely,...by boxing me into your box of your guess about me.

"The greatest being is that which nothing greater can be conceived."

I'm not talking about modern "Christianity",...in any way, shape or form.

Moreover, you are yet another poster that avoids the question: what shapes your conscience and why?

Are people afraid of talking about their "conscience" and what shapes it and why?

and who are the con-scientists trying to con??heh heh

I thought it was right or wrong based on a cosmic energy conflict..

ying/yang type...one cannot exist without the other..

I have my life experiences, whether invited or not, from which I draw a decision about how I want to define this limited time given to me.

I am the witness and observer of my life. I will live and die with that observation.

So, what about you?

I've reread your post several times, then reread my response. I stand by my initial reaction. If you would like to reframe your suppositions and question, I'd be happy to debate this with you.

You asked: "How do you shape your thoughts and behavior knowing a higher power is intimate with everything you think and do?"

I think I answered that correctly within my sphere of beliefs. Specifically, I make choices based on the idea that I pay for mistakes in real-time without interference by Deity.

As for your later question: "Moreover, you are yet another poster that avoids the question: what shapes your conscience and why?" I think I answered that question. I do. Please elaborate.

That's all I was soliciting *LOL*!!!

No matter whether you are beckoned by a certain religious creed or not,...YOU ARE STILL THE PILOT OF YOUR "CONSCIENCE".

Yes? :bounce:

I think.

Of course my conscience is determined by me. Sort of. I'd rather say that my conscience is part of what defines me.

Let's whip out the big guns on this debate.

The universe / multiverse is a single entity. Western thought, at least since Newton, has seen existence as a composition of "interacting clockwork mechanisms" that can be isolated, examined, and understood. Modern Christianity reflects this attitude.

In the last two or three decades, scientists and mathematicians have come to understand that in fact, all of existence is a whole, order is a special case of chaos, and well... Everything is pretty much entirely unlike we thought it was. Newton and Co. blew it, and we've been paying the price for their mistakes ever since.

The ancient religions accounted for all this. The universe was / is seen as a single infinite organism, and we, as cells in a body, so to speak, are guided by feedback from other elements of the whole.

I'm not spouting Gaea theology here, although that does have a place in this debate. I'm limited in that I am explaining in a frame of reference that historically had ignored the concepts I'm trying to express.

I'm a mathematician by training and a Fundamentalist Pagan by choice. As such, I have some pretty extreme views, and worse, I lack the language to discuss them. In short, I can only say that on one hand, your question has no meaning, and on the other, I am the master of my own destiny. As it turns out, contradiction is an active and vital concept, both mathematically and spiritually, when we talk about this subject.

I reiterated that you are a product of a Reductionist / Christian society, and thus are "tainted" by core concepts of the culture. From my point of view, your question is both difficult to understand and fraught with contradiction.

The most brilliant and impactful contributors to our world recognized that, none of us have the trademark/patent/copyright on TRUTH or DESTINY. We're just reaching for control over our lives the best way we can.

Unfortunately, there are those who restrict our potential by insisting upon a faux control.

BAH.

I am just pinning down our common existence, and I expected resistence by those who have been cornered into believing that we aren't "common" and must fight, fight, fight to survive,...a mentality.

Meanwhile, people are suffering, needlessly being oppressed.

I just lost you completely.

Are you responding to a different post?

Bottom line: do we care for eachother or not?

A "conscience" is caring about something other than ourselves.

But the poster did have point theirs out before you could get to yours.

It all sounds logical to me, but why are we all here in the first place?

Oh yea, and I hope we are not sitting on that proverbial universe situated inside that speck of dust on some housefly's ass.

Really all I am trying to say, is "why worry about it, we all got to go somewhere some day"

"One True God" Comes from Zoroastrianism. Not Christianity. The current arguement is whether Zoroastrianism predates Christianity bu 700 or 7,000 years. I'm in the 7,000 club. LOL Also Magic (by what ever spelling)comes from Zoroastrianism. Magic simply means, art of the Magus. To which Magi is the plural of Magus. As for the art of the Magi. There are too many to list here.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, are successors of Zoroastrianism. The evidence is limited and convoluted, but a thread of continuity is there. As for magic, your assertion is true only in the derivation of the word itself. "Magic" was an element of religious practice widely found throughout both history and prehistory. Only recently have "magic" and the priestly function been separated in common practice. As for Zorastic roots, that hardly explains Eastern magic, Celtic magic, and Native American magic. Evidence of the performance of magical activities is widespread, both geographically and temporally. The Zoroastrian Magi were one of the earliest documented organized practitioners, but hardly unique, either in the written record or discovered through archaeological studies.

Zoroastrianism is the foundation of Monotheism. The doctrines of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are paraphrased. I cannot call Judaism, Christianity, and Islam plagerism because they are the work of the same author. He simply published in different languages. In Zoroastrianism "priestly functions" and "Magic" have always been as seperate as the Parsis and Ilm-i-Khshnoom even though both are refered to as priests or Magus. It was to the Ilm-i-Khshnoom that Zoroaster gave the doctrines of Alchemy. So the Magupahti always comes from the Ilm-i-Khshnoom. We are forever loyal.

As for the proliferation of Magic. The Persian Empire is the only one to ever rule all of the known world. Which is by no means the entier world. It was after the the Parsis ceased to venerate the relix of Zoroaster (a system of laws kinda like our Constitution.)The Persian empire fell. The superpower of that day was defeated by a tiny Island Nation, Greece. Part of the Magi from both Parsis and Ilm-i-Khshnoom fled to the four corners of the earth and went into hiding. It was divide and preserve.

The next reemergence is the Ilm-i-Khshnoom's triumvirate council sent to Bethlehem at the birth of Christ. Magus Melchior was from Baghdad. Magus Caspar from Germany, and Mobad Balthazar from Mooroco. Then were the neo organizations like the illuminati, Rosicrucians, Masons, Etc. The Story King Author and Merlin is derived from the lives of Cyrus and Zoroaster. Now we are even here in America.

What an oddly creepy thought. I guess some find comfort in the idea of being watched all the time; I just get the shivers.

I have lots of practice with the good behavior part. I have been rather bad with the thought part. I have been thinking such negative things. I thought that thoughts were relatively harmless, but I have to realize that isn't true. It definitly has been hurting me and perhaps those who are close to me by these thoughts.
I claim that these thoughts are automatic, that I have no control over them. I know that isn't really entirly true though. It might be hard to break these negative thought patterns, but it is possible. I choose not to try hard enough to break them and at times actively choose them. I must actively choose new, more positive thoughts.

I try to remember that in everything I do. It's hard, but for those times when I fail, God is still there, to remind me that all is not lost, that I am forgiven "70 times 7"

I don't know why that is so hard for me.

but, if you want I could say something about what started me believing in forgiveness (its not the story of how I came to believe in God, if that worries you. no proselytisation here)

Not sure if my experience will be relevant to you or not, but if you are interested...

I'm interested in your story.

You are "aware" of yourself. Most people don't take responsibility for being "aware" of themselves 'cause,...self-awareness is a huge personal responsibility and burden. It's much easier to give that responsibility (and power) away.

OWNING a "conscience" takes strength and courage!!!

THAT is the point of my post. Of course,...most will be quite creative in avoiding the point,...avoiding the responsibility of "conscience".

"OWNING a "conscience" takes strength and courage!!!"
say that to an "un-conscious" person and wait for the puzzled look.

For me, its in everybody I meet, every flower I smell, every animal I touch. I don't believe that my higher power has some hot-link into my thoughts unless those thoughts become things. For that reason I tend to subscribe to the realization within one’s deepest consciousness of the Oneness of all life. I try to live according to the following:

1. Right Views means to keep ourselves free from prejudice, superstition and delusion... and to see aright the true nature of life.

2. Right Thoughts means to turn away from the hypocrisies of this world and to direct our minds toward Truth and Positive Attitudes and Action.

3. Right Conduct means to see that our deeds are peaceable, benevolent, compassionate and pure... and to live the Teachings daily.

4. Right Speech means to refrain from pointless and harmful talk... to speak kindly and courteously to all.

5. Right Livelihood means to earn our living in such a way as to entail no evil consequences. To seek that employment to which can give our complete enthusiasm and devotion.

6. Right Effort means to direct our efforts continually to the overcoming of ignorance and craving desires.

7. Right Mindfulness means to cherish good and pure thoughts, for all that we say and do arises from our thoughts.

8. Right Meditation means to concentrate on the Oneness of all life and the Buddhahood that exists within all beings.

This is technically the eight-fold path as described by the Budda....

Hope that helps. you... it sure does help me. Daily.

MZr7

The one part I have come to question is the "Oneness of all life". It would seem to me that our existence makes that a fact and falsehood. The paradox of a conscience leaves us at the point. You may or may not be able to dissect it, quantify or other with it and about it, conscience that is, but you will never be able to put it in a box to sell or give away to somebody or something else. The idea of the individual having control of it and of them needing to safeguard it like it was a lantern of light that could be extinguished seems apt to me. We our all our own individual regardless of or not this omnipresence thing some would describe

Its not a paradox really. We tend to define our place in the grand scheme of things based on a personal understanding of "self". Once it is understood that "self" is but the ultimate delusion, then oneness with all life is far less perplexing.


MZr7

Like "Just Me" was saying the impetus of competitiveness drives us to understand, but there are others who don't need any part of that, they just need to eat,and starvation is very real in todays world ( or so the pictures tell me). But is that my delusion (or fantasy as others posted above) or is really happening. Real collective thought works better when everybody can be honest with themselves, I even strive for that sometimes in asking why are we here or what are doing this for.

I do also kind of understand that other part about seeing the self in it's need to be fulfilled. I do see no need for this world or me in real terms but generally it is the one I am stuck in so I will continue to make the most of it ;-)

"you must know that higher power is aware of your every thought and word and deed" . . .

why must I know that? . . . maybe the higher power takes a broader view . . . maybe his/her interest is in the tree, but not in each individual leaf . . . or in the forest, but not each individual tree . . . no need to assume that said higher power has either the time or the inclination to be aware of or interested in my "every thought, word and deed" . . . probably has a lot more important, more universal things to worry about . . .

and earth - and may well not care all that much about the choice your free will makes and the consequence of that choice. In effect saying that God has various levels of concern.

"more universal things to worry about . . ."

:-)

OK - Jesus said we were at least "a" concern of God - and that is good enough for me.


:-)

Monotheistic thought just doesn't feel like all there is to me. I believe that there's something that connects us all as human beings and living creatures. I believe there is more, but I don't presume to assert I can begin to define it. My thoughts and behavior are shaped more by both my needs and desires and trying to be as considerate as possible of other people (especially those I love) and the planet as a whole.