What are your thoughts on illegal immigration?

I have had a hard time forming an opinion on what should be done about illegal immigration. I get the feeling Rove is trying to cut into the Hispanic vote by having Bush look the other way in illegal immigration. I don't really think it takes away jobs and personally it probably helps the economy grow by adding more people to the economy. On the other hand I don't want our population to go up any more. I hate the idea of the population of the West exploding. What I love about the west is the open spaces and the remote areas with little or no population. Not to mention it is illegal but then again I can see people wanting a better life for them-self and their children.

Please help me to not be so wishy washy on this issue. It's an issue I have just not cared about hardly at all one way or the other. Are their others like me out their? What do you think?

there is a system in place for legal immigration, and it is there to (on paper) filter out murders and drug dealers

It simply isn't possible.

Why is the National Guard in Iraq, and not guarding our borders?
A police agency such as the US Border Patrol is useless in this application. We need military guards on our borders. LOTS OF 'EM.

Not even if your entire military, plus reserves, plus national guard, plus draftees were available to do border crossing duty.

You have no idea of either the size or geography involved

believes that the borders can be 100% "hermetically sealed", but a large dent in the flow of illegal immigrants could be made.

I don't even know why there's debate on this. There is a legal way to enter this country. Why is it so difficult to understand?

And a 'legal way' isn't open to most people.

I can tell you flat out, you cannot get through it speaking limited English without a lawyer. Even if you speak English, it can take years to even get your interview if you don't know every trick the lawyers do. Even having the lawyer, my husband was almost denied because the lawyer had so many cases, he didn't file ours properly. The judge gave us the benefit of the doubt only by his good graces (and because my husband is English, not Mexican). That lawyer was a middle of the road lawyer, and we still are paying it off. All together the process probably cost a little more than 3000 dollars. Earning 10 dollars a week in Mexico isn't going to cut it. Unless you're wealthy in which case it is just example #1598382234 of how the rich screw over the poor.

Turning a blind eye to illegals isn't the solution though.

2000 miles x 5280 feet / 145,000 troops (the number of troops in Iraq) means that a troop would be stationed about every 75 feet. Barbed wire is about $2500 a mile. The entire border could be barb wired for less than five million dollars.

They could be set at different levels. Set for stun of course! Well, on the Canadian border we could set them on vaporize! Have to keep them dam Canadians out! :patriot:

They're the ones breaking the law. If there wasn't money to be made here, they'd stop coming.

We need to eliminate the racial element and treat the border as what it is: a place. A place that needs to be secured, while at the same time respecting human rights. I suspect that Bush and some members of the right wing actually like illegal immigration due to the cheap labor it provides. Here is a good explanation of "cheap labor conservatism":
http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/beattherightinthree.htm

The author doesn't mention illegal immigration, but I can see how Bush and the right wing's inaction on the issue are consistent with cheap labor conservatism.

That's a great stratagy! Very catchy and very true! Thanks for that.

It's illegal and should be stopped. If the we could seal the borders to Iraq, we could do it here too. People already here who are paying taxes (there are many) should be given a chance to stay. Others deported. Illegal immigration can be stopped by economic incentives. Raise the minimum wage so that crop picking and other manual work will become attractive to Americans. Enforce existing laws. Get serious. The Minutemen are just a sign that the gov't is not doing its job right now. My 2 cents.

Illegals are willing to work for illegal wages - so the higher the opportunity cost (higher wage 'legal' workers), the demand for illegal (cheaper) workers rises.

...here's how it is for me. As the son of an immigrant(my father and his two brothers came here from Ireland in 1948), I am 100% opposed to illegal immigration. My father and uncles signed up at the door, which is the law. Period. I have gone around and around with people on this subject. I have been called a racist over this. Sorry, folks, but it's not racism on my part. I just believe that our borders need to be more secure, and we DO need to know who's entering the country.

I also believe that there a lot of people/corporations that never want the parade of illegal immigrants to end. It's a never ending supply of cheap laborers to exploit. Fuckin' slavery is what I call it. Nice human rights situation, eh?

opinion as well. To me, it is pretty clear cut -- you either apply to enter the country legally, or you do not come in. Obviously, there will always be a few illegals as there are in any country, but the idea that we should have a free flow of "cheap laborers to exploit" is unsustainable for a dozen reasons. Draconian fines for businesses who employ illegals would do a whole lot to stop it. So would immediate deportation of illegals when discovered. If we have no border, folks, we have no country. And that's a fact.

The sad thing is that even the fact that it's slavery it's still a better life than they had in Mexico.

conflicting feelings on this or any other issue.
The freepers see everything in black and white, that's what makes them freepers.
I remember an interview I heard on BBC with an expert on immigration.
She went right to the heart of the matter: people wouldn't leave their families and homes if they were able to provide food, clothing, shelter and education for them.
Wealthy nations have an obligation to help poorer countries and it is incredible arrogant to claim that we need to close the borders because we are "threatened" by immigrants.
It is ridiculous that our government cannot or will not see the futility of continuing such policies.
Helping these nations is in everybody's best interests.

If this nation could only see that the cause of 'illegal' immigration is the unbelievable poverty in other nations, and perhaps do something to fix that (instead of wasting billions upon billions killing people), illegal immigration would not be a problem.

People do not want to leave their country of origin. The only reason they do is because living conditions are intolerable and they see a future elsewhere.

I wish I could remember her name, she was brilliant.

The reason that we have immigration laws and quotas is to control the volume of immigration and the effects on all of the governmental services supplied. Legal immigration requires sponsors -- either organizations or family members sponsor, guaranteeing that services such as food stamps and welfare services are not supplied to the immigrant families; they guarantee that they will support them, if necessary. Additionally, there are many other governmental services that we all benefit from: schools, libraries, police and fire protection, labor laws (including minimum wage and the right to joing unions, overtime pay, and benefits), etc.

Illegal immigrants are causing enormous stresses on school systems, medical systems, police services, etc. There is the far bigger issue that because they are taking "low-end" jobs for lower wages, no benefits, no labor law protections that not only are they being exploited as a "slave class," but our entire system about labor laws is being undermined. Additionally, there has been a huge increase in the activities of street gangs, many of which include as members: illegal immigrants.

The conservatives and business people have been opposed to most of the labor laws since FDR implemented many of them. They would like to return to the days of no unions, no restrictions, no benefits, no paid leave for vacations, no overtime pay, no controls over how long they can insist on working anyone, etc. This is the reason that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and various business organizations have steadfastedly held that illegal immigration is simply an issue that needs to be resolved with amnesty programs or changes to the immigration laws -- preferably some time way off in the future. They LIKE being able to exploit a slave class of workers and would like to expand it, or, of course, simply send the jobs overseas for even cheaper wages and poorer working conditions.

The conservatives are also the ones framing the argument as being one of "racism" rather than either labor issues and/or security along the border. We are buying into their argument when we start jumping up and down over racism being the core issue.

The issue is one of security, of labor laws, of lost jobs for blue-collar citizens, and impacted services. Our system is under attack and illegal immigration is only one prong; however, it is a highly impacting one.

I think I am against it now. Dam do we have some smart people on DU.

totally. The minutemen in Arizona showed that we can secure our borders safely, but we all know our present government really just doesn't want to. Between the liberal people in Congress who want to be nice to everybody and the conservatives who are using these people as slaves, again, we in the middle are getting screwed.

and intolerance need not be covered by white sheets and hidden in the dark anymore.

We now wear it proudly, just like the rebel flags waving from the pick-up trucks.

If that's the only way left to get into Canada, I'm taking it.

I don't like illegal immigration, simply because it's illegal. We do have a legal means for people to immigrate, though I haven't done any research to determine how fair or equitable that process is.

That said, I do agree with Maple that it is impossible to stop. The US is some 3,000 miles wide, and maybe 2,000 from north to south. That would make the border some 10,000 miles long.

I do think it takes away jobs. If corp-ag as one example, couldn't get illegals to pick their crops, they would have to raise the wages to lure people to do it. That would most likely however, drive up consumer prices as well.

I think if the US would stop trying to treat all of Central and South America as US colonies, and let those countries establish decent societies on their own, the way Venezuela seems to be trying, as an example, then much of the illegal immigrant problem in the US would solve itself.

But, of course, the US has been on the path to empire for virtually all of its existence, so the idea of acting within itself and not trying to control our neighbors is so foreign to us that we will probably never voluntarily step off the imperial path.

I for one don't think I'll miss the empire when it falls.

A coherent immigration policy supportive of American labor would have helped define the party in the last election. The fence sitting due to not wanting to "offend" the Hispanic voter was short-sighted. Most of what I've read indicates that Hispanic citizens, who tend to be social conservatives and vote, are opposed to illegal immigration.

We could have been pro-American labor and upped our standing with the "security moms" and others by taking a strong border stance, yet the campaign took the squishy nuanced middle position once again.

This wouldn't have changed the result in California, could have helped in AZ, and more importantly in the non-border states would have given us an issue that the repukes are at odds with against the bushies.

With open borders, and decriminalized immigration, there will be no
benefit for being "illegal" as being "legal" is easier and cheaper.
Then the government can plan and stay aware of exactly what the demands
on public services and such can be.

The fact is, that capital is free to cross borders. You can purchase
a factory in Germany with your money, but the workers are not free.
This is perverse, that we grant more rights to our paper money than
to living flesh, and is ultimately hipocritical. With an open legal
immigration, people will be less inclined to "stay" and rather will
visit and leave, as the attempt to tie people down will be less
forceful. In this sense, if we can normalize relations with open
immigration countries, then the tax and social security services can
cooperate as well, that the money flows follow the feet of the
citizens.

With open borders, it would force the US to take a mcuh stronger
interest in helping mexico become a rich nation. As well, the drugs
war should be ended, so that the need to smuggle across borders
diminishes, leaving only the weapons trade as the smuggler's trade,
something that is far easier to monitor than drugs... as explosives,
guns, rockets and bullets are not so easily concealed.

Open borders forces us to deal with the whole world as part of our
economic paradigm, not something we can oppress, as it recognizes
the human rights of all people. In this sense, my neoliberlism
believes that by giving people the world over, a taste of the USA
legally, they might take the good parts back to their home
countries, understanding and goodwill to the betterment of us all.

Don't feel bad that you feel your thoughts on it are "wishy washy" because those that believe "send 'em back" is a policy really don't understand how complex the situation is.

It is clear that illegal immigration is a problem and one that requires a sane solution. We have immigration laws for a reason. My parents immigrated here legally. There are thousands around the world in line to enter legally. Illegal immigration is bad for everyone involved, including those that come here. They are often exploited by the corporation for which they work for.

For that reason, corporations hiring illegal immigrants should be fined heavilly.

I also favor a greater national guard presence on the border. Then hopefully vigillante type groups such as the Minutemen might disband.

I would oppose a general amnesty of undocumented workers, but I think amnesty may make sense in a few rare cases - perhaps those that have stayed for a while and have kids here...

We need to revamp our immigration policy so that people who want to come and work here can do so legally.

Just poor people trying to survive.

depressing wages for those here legally.

Deal with the demand, not the supply. Strictly enforce laws dealing with the hiring of undocumented workers, minimum wage, SS and workplace safety.

Implement a guest worker program which requires employers to prove a worker shortage, at specified wage rates, for permission to hire non-citizens (guests).

undocumented workers.

to retake their territory.

Fine them heavily. Do so until NOBODY will hire undocumented workers.

Alternately, work for international justice & fair labor practices. Our education & health care systems also need improvement--for ALL of us; it's so easy to blame their problems on "illegals."

The "open spaces" of the West are in more danger from white retirement communities than from undocumented workers.

That would really put an end to them hireing undocumented workers.

Changing a few adult diapers on a daily basis should do the trick.

Remember those aging people in those communities increasingly need people to look after them, do their gardening and clean their houses. I wonder if the families of these retirees would be willing to pitch in once the supply of laborers for these communities dries up?

We need a common sense approach to people looking for work in this country. We should issue work permits to everyone who wants to work here and to every employer who wants to hire them.

The employer's permit would state that they pay the same wage and benefits that they pay to American workers. The worker's permit would state that so and so wants to hire them across the border. If the workers were hired in Mexico and the permits were issued at the border before anyone enters, I think it would cut down on illegal entries.

Also, for all those freepers worried about invasions and terrorists, the workers could be run through interpol and our own databases to reduced the possibilities of any Mohammed Attas getting through. Incidentally, Mohammed was here legally on a student visa. :eyes:

Finally, having hired both Americans and Mexican Nationals when I had a business, I would be looking for workers in Tijuana if these laws were in place. Why? The Mexicans are better workers and far more reliable that the Americans. I always paid them the same as the Americans. They were worth it. A little competition doesn't hurt does it?

Before the bigotry squad arrives on this post, let me say that the real issue isn't about jobs lost and wages lowered. These problems could be eliminated by inviting these workers to join the various unions involved here. The real issue is bigotry. I don't see an equal passion about Europeans entering illegally and working here so the real agenda is quite clear to me and I am very sensitive about this issue.

So let the Orangeman leave Ireland and the gringos get the fuck out of Aztlan

http://www.nfg.org/reports/83paperchase.htm

Once Upon a Legal Time

It hasn't always been a crime to enter the U.S. without documents. Longtime immigrant activist María Jiménez points out that "it wasn't until 1929 that the U.S. government introduced concepts designating immigrants as 'legal' or 'illegal.' Previously, laws had excluded individuals based on nationality, illness, political beliefs or criminal records, but not simply for moving across borders without documents."

The economy is tanking and already scarce jobs will be getting harder and harder to find. The US is already terribly overpopulated, while our natural resources, particularly water, are dwindling.

We have a whole lot of internal domestic problems that need to be solved before we can be healthy enough as a nation to support other nations.

That said, nothing will be done about illegal immigration or the domestic problems faced by the US as long as corporations continue to control our government and dictate policy.

and actually causing the problems we have today.

We need to bring back regulation, like we had back in the fifties and sixties, before all controls on corporations were systematically destroyed by RW legislators.

Time to bring back law and order for the corporations, the real criminals. Right now we have come back full circle to the age of the robber barons.

big time brewing over there. When it explodes, illegal immigration now is going to look like trickle immigration.

Hanes, a subsidiary of the Sara Lee corporation (I hate you, you filthy fucking cheesecake people!) is free to take what it has to sell (t-shirts made in Mexican sweatshops) across the border and sell in the US, where demand is greater and a higher price may be asked.

Jose, a human being, is not free to take the only thing he has to sell (his labour) across the border to the US, where demand is greater and a higher price may be asked.

When Jose's rights are not less than those of an imaginary person like 'Hanes', many problems will be minimized, including illegal immigration.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

I just saw admiration for the minutemen, yet again.
When my grandparents came through Ellis Island they believed in America. When my mother immigrated, she believed.
This is now amerikkka, land of the white and the rich.

I think more needs to be done to stop illegal immigration. I feel for those who want a better life for themselves, but there are plenty of our own citizens who are unemployed,poor, starving and needy. Let's take care of them first..

Please, give them your job. They need it.
Please give them your home. They need it.
Please look at your Social Security statement, that amount you've paid in over your lifetime, give it to them. They need it.
Go wait in an emergency room, even though you pay hundreds of dollars each month for health insurance, let those who pay nothing go in front of you, and watch your premiums climb. You don't mind they need it.
So now that you are out of a job, with no home or insurance, go apply for a job, wait bilingual preferred. Sorry.

That is what you are asking so unless you are willing to do it yourself, stop asking people to hand over everything they've worked for.

Solution?
All these companies outsourcing to India need to outsource to Mexico. It is much less expensive to live there than here.